HCW

Reminds me of a time when I was at a NK High school basketball game. My daughter was a cheerleader for NK. Lots of TWI staffers attend NK sporting events, some because their kids participate, some come with parents & some just come.... This 9th corps guy, whose face I sorta remembered, but he remembered me and my name walks up to me & starts talking to me, congratulating me on my daughter getting accepted to Harvard. I'm thinking, "Who IS this guy?? And. My daughter isn't going to Harvard! Why ARE you talking to me? I thought I was M&A?" "What?" I said, frowning. "Harvard." He said. "She must have really worked her a$$ off to get into Harvard. You must be proud of her for doing all the you have to do to get into an Ivy League school. It must have been some tough sh!t" I was like, "What!??? She's not going to Harvard." I let him squirm. He seemed to be trying so hard to be cool, by cussing & all that. Loooong, uncomfortable silence. I thought it was funny. I guess it WAS me.!

I'm with you guys. Yeah. The story was that they talked Craig into doing it. Craig created such a buzz around it though. It was hard to "hear" anything without getting caught up in the buzz. From my POV the initial excitement was aound us doing the biggest Way Productions thing we'd ever done in the ministry. There was all of this biggest & the best stuff buzzing around it... It was like the Jedi mind trick from the Star Wars movies. You know where Luke Skywalker rides up in his scooter and the Storm Troopers are guarding the gate? Luke says to the guard while he waves his Jedi finger across the guards view, "I need to get through here..." Guard then says, in a dazed manner, not even knowing what he's saying.... "You need to get through here..." Skywalker, "Yes, I'll be passing through now...." Guard, "Yes, pass through now." It was like whatever Craig said, had to happen. It was like we had no choice. He talked about how he was actually living the part of the Athlete of the Spirit "minister" while he was going to consult with all of the best minds in the minstry to formulate his training routine. He was going to get back into competitive shape, cut some weight, re-tone some muscle, gain some flexibility, learn the dance and martial arts moves and do this awesome thing. What was most awesome about it was the fact that he actually WAS doing it. I think people just assumed that Hayward Chappell would do the lead role. After all Hayward Chappell had danced the lead in every Way Prod Dance thing out of HQ for like the past ten years, as had Murphy. It was like a no-brainer. Hayward already had the body, the skills, and the experience w/Way Prod dancing the role even. I felt like it was a sort of slap in Hayward's face that after all he'd done to help build The Way Dance Co. he was "out" when the company did it's biggest thing ever. It was like "all of the top" people in various areas did their thing in Athletes. Hayward handled the snub graciously. I actually figured that Craig would do some sort of scaled down version of dancing. There was just no way a bulky tight end football player could become a graceful dancer and hang with Murphy. They said part of the reasoning was height. There were a few guys in the cast who could have handled the role easily. They were way too short to partner Murphy. The rehearsals were closed. They only folks who saw Craig prior to the show were the other dancers who trained and rehearsed separately from Murphy & Craig. He actually did a lot of his training/rehearsing away from HQ in Cleveland where Murphy lived. He just Jedi mind tricked us, "My training is coming along, I've lost __________ much weight." He was getting slimmer. He had stories about funny things in his training and how he felt about what he called trading in his spikes for the little dancing shoes. It wasn't until it was unveiled when it was like, "What?" Then it was like too late to make any changes. Plus. YOU tell the boss his dancing sucks. Gee boss, you look like a dancin' bull in china shop!

He sure would! He's probably tell you that the best way to get away with it would be to head north on highway 29 and hang a left onto Botkins Road when you're approaching TWI's billboard. Go one mile west on Botkins Rd to Shelby County Rd and go right onto Shelby Co. Rd. About a mile up Shelby Co. Rd. you will see the Auditorium on your right. Go right onto Wierwille Rd and hang a right on the first road that leads into the Woods. follow it around to where youre near the campfire area. Hop out, scoot over the the area, respectfully grab a spade full of soil. You can say a nice prayer and be back to your car before security can get down there. Unless they happen to be in the OSC parking lotor sitting on one of the ROA access roads. In that case you can just drive by them, heading east on Wierwille Rd, cause you'll see them as you approach or turn onto Wierwille. I'm just saying that Donnie would probably think it is so rediculous that they want to keep you out that he'd go in anyway. If I could spell that giggle thing he used to do, I'd insert one here.

Yes. We should all look past our predjudices, etc. Yes Sami's actions are more than commendable. I have an amazing daughter myself. There are times when she does things, makes decisions, etc that make me wanna be like her when I grow up too. I really feel you on that one Shell. However. I will never release, condone or in any way excuse TWI for their policy regarding restricting and enforcing access as they have on this matter. In my very educated opinion on this I am 100% certain that restricting access to the people who would come to visit their loved ones burial sites in The Way Woods is 100% about LCM's and TWI's desire for control. Their policy is is not about protection, security or access, it is about control. It is about power, as in "you MUST do what "I" say." They use The Way Woods to "hit 'em where it (may) hurts." Basically "nobody" gives a hoot about visiting the BRC, the auditorium, the ROA grounds or, God forbid, the OSC building. The places people WILL ABSOLUTELY care about visiting are those burial sites. I'm sure the policy to restrict is, at LEAST, part of LCM's & TWI's way of "stickin' it to people. They are 100% certain that at some point in time they would get the chance to exert at least that much control over those of us who have said to them, "No, you will NOT control me any more - - no not ever again." They know they will get the chance to say, "If you will do what WE say, we'll give you what you want." I think that is reprehensible that they use The Way Woods in that manner. I used to visit the campfire area to pray BECAUSE "your"(in the sense of everyone whose loved one is there) loved ones remains are there because of how much I love my own loved ones who are still alive. People used to come there "all the time" because VP said it was the holiest place on the grounds. Believers would drive in from around the area or visit there when they'ed come in from far off and bring their deepest and most sacred prayer requests to God... there. Sami. Shell, Igotout, others... not only are the remains of your loved ones, family and our friends buried there. They are comingled with the ashes of the written prayer requests of THOUSANDS of people. Along with them are the "Thank you God" notes from God only knows how many others. The very concept of being FORCED to ask permission to go there is tantamount to being forced to ask permission to open your heart in your most personal, private and vulnerable times of going before God, Himself. That area is not just "some woods where some dirt is." It is made sacred by the virtue of what went on there... things that have nothing to do with the indiscretions of TWI. Doug M. knows that. Were I in his shoes, the concept of asking permission to go there to do something extremely personal would be out of the question to me also. I would also be willing to risk the arrest also.... Personally, I made my own life long commitment to service to God there at that campfire area - ALONE. With God - at night. There's an owl who used to live there in the woods, sometimes he'd bless us with a well timed "whhoooo" VPW prayed for the biggest, most important events of the ministry - - THERE. He and George Jess dedicated The Way Corps program, taugh many of the first few Corps groups (including LCM) there. My blood is there. I've seen VPW break into tears and weep - - there - - at that campfire area when talking about how that is THE spot where the heart of the heart of the heart of the ministry emanated from. That area is blessed by the remains of faithful believers who lived with a real heart for God. I feel honor for you that your Dad is there Sami. Although I don't think I've ever met him, I have an idea of what kind of man he was when he was alive. You are obviously a chip of the ol' block!

The fact that all this is REALLY about is a daughter visiting her father's gravesite is precisely why that is all it really SHOULD be about. TWI administration knows that. The administration of TWI is well aware of the fact that it was VPW's heart that The Way Woods NEVER close and that the campfire area and the House of His Healing presence (the small cabin in "the middle") be available and accessible to ANY believer 24/7 - 365. TWI administration is well aware of the fact that this was not only VPW's "heart" but it was his specific decree that it be so. TWI administration is well aware that VPW echoed this sentiment every year the night before ROA opened in a ceremony that to him was the highlight of every ministry year. Every year VP would lead a prayer time in the woods around the campfire area where he personally prayed for each and every one of you. He never failed to mention the remains of those buried there and how it was those sacred remains that made that such a sacred place. The most sacred and hallowed place on the grounds of The Way International. It was his personal desire that EVERY believer, although it was a logistical impossibility to, visit and spend time in The House of His Healing Presence. He wanted it open so that at any time during the year people could just drive by and stop in and have personal and PRIVATE time with God there. He ordered that it be so. LCM knows that. Doug MacMullen knows that too. I am well aware, thank you, of all of the reasons TWI has to protect their property. In fact, I personally helped Doug M. to teach and train TWI's security folk in some martial arts hand to hand techiques to subdue people. I was even part of Doug's personal security team during opening ceremony at ROA and other major events at HQ when we'd have the huge crouds there. I'm also personally responsible for convicting people of vandalism to TWI property as I shot evidence photos that we provided to police. I even found a knife that had "dissapeared" when a suspect was apprehended after bending flagpoles down Wierwille Rd. Believers had said the guy brandished a knife when they confronted him to stop, but when bless patrol snagged the guy no knife was in his possession. I found it, shot photos of it. It had his prints on it, he was arressted, etc. I'm also aware of MAJOR security issues that have occurred at TWI. Like the time we got a report that there was a bomb on a timer somewhere in the ROA campground. It was supposedly large enough to put a huge crater there and we had a short time before the bomb went off..... Like I said, I'm well aware of the threats to TWI. Do I live there? Yes I did. Not now, of course. I do, however, live in Ohio where, according to State Law, I can be jailed for marrying, my now X-wife. Consumating my marriage is illegal in Ohio. The lawmakers pick and choose which laws they will and will not enforce, prosecute, change or let lie dormant. I actually came into compliance with Ohio law the moment my divorce came final. I can't name a single person denied access to the burial ground, just one who was arrested and hauled off to jail in handcuffs for visiting his loved one buried there... because he didn't ask. TWI administration. Specifcally Rosalie Rivenbark has specific actual knowledge of the fact that VPW specifically encouraged people to visit the campfire area there... often. VP made a huge deal out of it. Doug was there, Rosalie, LCM, Harve, Lohn Linder, John Reynolds, basically ALL of them, except some of these "new guys" more recently installed into the major director level positions who weren't there on staff with us while VP was alive. I was there too. It was my job to be there, taking pictures for the TWI historical files. Yes, of course, were it MY personal property, I could handle it as I saw fit. I see this as a which came first the cart or the horse kinda thing. Doug M. wasn't trying to provoke a confrontation with them, THEY, laid down a gauntlet, so to speak, by saying, "No. YOU are not "welcome at the way." They were more than happy to have their attorneys scour Ohio law to find anything they can use to support their position. It is a dispicable manipulation on their part. As it says in another thread here at the Cafe. When it comes to TWI, its all about control. A counterfeit, to be successful, MUST have elements of "truth" inherent in it. Otherwise it could NEVER fool anyone. LG. The innies "in the know" must be ROFL'ing at the fact that they have someone like YOU supporting their "rights." Of course Sami took the high road when she bottomlined it and was simply willing to "pay the price" for what was really important. Again my hat is off to her. The fact that she "uchered" them still doesn't mean they are "right" in creating the situation. My comments on this are in regard to my opinion of what THEY did.

Originally posted by Raf: "Why is it that after reading this indisputable evidence of an indisputable lie, some people still don't get that he was lying about the 1942 snowstorm too? Oh, it was a vision. Oh, it could have happened with few people noticing, no evidence anywhere. How about this: Oh, the guy fabricates snowstorms to embellish his stories, never figuring anyone would have the courage to check." Frankly folks, that logic just doesn't wash. No, I'm not trying to support VPW. I don't know what did or did not happen on that day in 1942. I do know that whatever happened, it was of great personal significance to VPW. He went to great lengths to have photos taken of that gas station and even acquired the window he looked out of when the building was torn down. Don't slam me on all of the details regarding it - - my point is that whatever happened that day was of great significane to him. Frankly my dears, I never really gave a d_ _ _ about it. Wheter or not VP acutally saw snow or not meant diddly squat to me and it had little to nothing to do with my personal involvement w/TWI. Utilizing the logic of, "he lied about one thing... why don't people get it that he lied about what he saw when noone else was around...." can be applied to people like, hmmm... How about MOSES??? Burning bush? I didn't see no stinking bush burning. What evidence can be left of a bush burning when the "story" was that the thing WASN'T burnt by the fire? "It was that bush, right over there, the one next to the big rock." "Yeah right Mo. Now, You want ME to walk THROUGH the water???" How 'bout Abraham? "Sure Abe, you were GONNA knife your son, but just in the nick of time you saw a ram..." "Yeah right. There are LOTS of historical claims made by all kinds of people. Not all of them are limited to the Bible, although the Bible makes many of the most outlandish claims about all kinds of stuff. "Sure. A guy 500 years old built a ship three stories tall as long as two football fields by himself, with the help of his three sons." Every animal just came to him and boarded, two by two in as orderly a fashion as we now do airplanes at the aitport." Ok. What I don't get is how: with ALL of the now documented disputing between the early factions (The Way West Vs. VPW for example) some of whom fell away from TWI, others who stayed and built the ministry "we all now hate" et. al. ... in almost a decade of even working on HQ staff ... basically NOONE questioned the validity of the snow on the gas pump thing. Now almost 20 years after the man is dead, he's a LIAR about that because he lied about other things? All men are liars, are we not? Love VPW if you wish. HATE him if you wish.... that is your individual call. VPW and TWI was more than his/it's indescretions. I for one would issue a word of reasonable caution regarding how far one is willing to go in villifying not only VPW but anyone. "No evidence anywhere." simply is not enough to make a determination... one way or the other. Maybe I'm taking the comment out of context, but I think that logic should be logical. I think that if a person makes an "if - - then" type statement the comparison should make "indisputably" logical sense. Lying to embellish a story, NEVER figuring ANYBODY would have the COURAGE to check it out - - simply makes NO logical sense. Especially in light of the reality that at one time TWI, and VPW was on the tip of basically "every" organized religion's tongue as one of the top five MOST DANGEROUS CULTS IN THE WORLD. Wouldn't ANY author who ever wrote a book. gave a verbal quote speaking negatively about TWI... ANY religous leader in the country, basically ANY pastor who ever spoke against TWI have the courage to "check" if anybody saw ANY stinking snow that day? Of course they would, of course they DID. My concern is that we don't go overboard with the "... and he did THIS TOO!" syndrome. We should balance or emotional positions with true, real logic based on facts, not suppositions. Just for the record.... I HATE any and all of the bad stuff VP did, so please don't get it twisted.

Of course you should be proud Shell. All due respect to you and your family.... Asking permission to visit the area in question does seem like a small price to pay to keep all of the ugliness out of the picture when it comes to such a simple yet loving thing. Visiting the grave site of a loved one is something that by its very nature should be free of controversy of any kind. Generally speaking... Problem is; TWI, and all of its leadfership SHOULD KNOW that. Were the situation "reversed" and I had the reamins of a person buried IN my LIVING ROOM... the ONLY reason I'd even ASK that loved ones ask me for access to the remains would be to make sure I or someone else was there and available to prvide access to them. For the duration of their visit, I'd give them whatever privacy they wanted, turn off the TV and record anthing I'd want to see of TV while they were there, OR watch it upstairs in my bedroom, quitely, so as not to disturb the sanctity of their visit; even if the visitor were a perfect stanger to me. There is just NO good reason for TWI to restrict access to those woods. It is OUTSIDE far enough away from any private residence and business location there. It is WRONG for TWI to play the "private property" card. It is 100% hypocritical for them do hold the position they do. Not only is it wrong, it is a wholly aggressive move on their part in FULL anticipation that someone whom they DON'T like absolutely WILL find themselves compelled by the love of their deceased loved one to come there. This, "just ask" policy redefines passive agressiveness. In fact it takes it to a whole new, wholly dispicable level. What they are doing in this is the equivalent of a sniper hiding himself under cover and squeezing off a kill shot right in the forehead of an unsuspecting "mark." Doug M. was RIGHT to challenge them and force his situation into court, if for no other reason than to expose the hypocracy of TWI. Words cannot discribe how heinous the idea of this is. SATANIC is a word in the direction but even that falls short. Of course I'm glad that they made Sami's visit pleasant and memorable, but IMO that only adds to how horrible they are. My parents are buried in a large cemetary in my home town. SO big is the place that it can be difficult for me to find their graves. The ONLY time the caretakers even ASKED me if I needed an escort to the gravesites was IF I were unable to find the sites via the map they gave me. TWI GAVE UP THEIR RIGHTS TO CLAIM PRIVATE PROPERTY THE MOMENT THEY AGREED TO TURN PORTIONS OF "THEIR" PROPERTY INTO A CEMETARY... PERIOD. I think it is noteworthy to point out that just because they were nice to Sami does not excuse TWI from the heinous error in their fully hypocritical position. Whereas you can't say enough good about Sami in what she did to visit her Dad's final resting place, you can't say enough bad about TWI. IMO. It doesn't matter WHAT twi does, in terms of being "good" or reforming the error in their teachings or taking better care of people, etc. As long as they maintain the position that people MUST ask permission to visit the final resting place of ANYONE buried there... That "ministry" is NOT of God. That ONE issue for me is the tip of an evil iceberg that is TWI.

Thanks Belle. I couldn't have waded through that tape to transcribe it.. . I couldn't even read your whole post. Word Over the World? Have they forgotten that there are six BILLION people in the world? Do they really NOT Know that there are over 5.995 billion of the over six billion people in the world who have NEVER even heard of TWI? Even here in Dayton, Ohio there might be like 100 people here who know anything about TWI. Of those people, like all but like six of them are X TWI folk. 2 X anti cult people and about four minister who heard of it a long time ago but really don't know much about it. Prevail!

Have the Happiest of Birthdays Garth!

Mine too. I remember arguing with somebody about that. I did promo work for the WOW program, I was always "fighting" for WOW stuff. The "problem" was the limited seating capacity for the auditorium they tried to give a wide variety od people the opportunity to see it at ROA, focusing on peole who were far enough away that coming back after wouldn't be feasible.... Devil's advocate

Yeah, Craig didn't approve the music. Most of it was written before he took over.

Sure I can put up the poster, but I don't have it electronically, give me a little bit to dig one up, scan it etc. Fortunately I have a smaller version somewhere from something. The original is too big for a normal scanner. ----------- The BIG difference, Ala, was that Vp let us alone to do our creative thing. Craig would mess up your "creative process." VP actually trained people, mentored performers and artisans, he demanded our best then let us alone to do it. Craig tried so desparately, and failed so miserably, to be "the next VP." Yes VP has his faults, no doubt, but he actually did have some talents, leadership ability, etc. VP was a really good Executive Producer. He would set vision and direction, then step back and allow you to shine. That's how Way Productions grew. Few people know that "The Way Dance Company" was traveling doing productions way back in 1978,'79. Murphy and the other dancers, would put together shows, we'd pack up a Fleet van or two and leave on a Friday night, travel somewhere within half a day's drive, get up the next morning, do the lighting and technical stuff for the venue and do the show as a Saturday Night Doo. We'd usually be back in time for me to run camera for the SNS. We did some really decent, simple shows that blessed people. They were forrunners to Athletes. We developed our skills, etc. LCM saw Athletes as his chance to be accepted like VP was. He jumped into the mix in ways VP never did. Had LCM let us alone, kept out of it Athletes could have been GREAT. I think I've shared before how immediately before Athletes, the first big show in the aud. was the best show Way Prod ever did. It opened and played to wild standing O's. The trustees closed it immediately. That was when I KNEW things were really bad in TWI.

Thanks folks. This is scary to me. I just don't like the heightened bandwagon mantality. How can I assume that ANYTHING I enjoyed is good for you? Even with stuff like a movie. I can say, hey, I liked it, you should see it. People ususally say tell me about it. Then they may say, I think I might like that. There is something scary to me about people who might say, "You're not cool cause you didn't go see that flick."

I'm mildly irritated too.

Whereas I understand asking for help to deal with something you may not know much about dealing with . Or asking for someone with more scriptural knowledge on a subject you feel you may need to confront. I do not understand why you would want to slap ANY kind of label on your friend's forehead, other than FRIEND. SO WHAT if she's a lesbian? SO WHAT if she has health problems? WHAT IF you started out by just being the BEST friend for her that you can be? I have a good deal of experience dealing with PEOPLE who consider their sexual orientation to be "gay." NO. I'm NOT trying to be politically correct. I'm trying to make a point. IF any of my friends came to me and asked me to help them draw closer to God. I would start with whatever I'M PERSONALLY learning, studying or doing in my own path of trying to get closer to God. I would simply talk to them about what's up with their life, tell them what's up in mine and you know, BE a FRIEND to them. No agenda except friendship. I hate labeling people. Seeing as I'm BLACK (a label one cannot escape from nearly as esily as one can "hide" who they sleep with, or better said what kind of person they might WANT to have sex with) I know intimately the STING of what it feels like to be labeled. From what I know about the sexual habits of single people in general... WHY would we ever want to assume that a lesbian gets laid any more often that a "straight" person? From a biblical perspective we ALL have a propensity to sin, every day. Single MEN supposedly think about sex every 10 seconds.... Well. I guess we're somehow "better" because WE think about sinning sexually with the opposite gender than someone who thinks about the same with their own gender? Oh. I get it. To be GAY is a DOUBLE level sin, right? OR is it that "being "HOMO" somehow places a person in a perpetual state of sin, like when they're working in a bank, or watching TV. People won't care what you know til they know that you care. I've know gay people who only "think" they're gay. They had less sex than "anybody" like NONE. But they SAID the were Homosexual, for their own reasons. Do you introduce her as "My lesbian friend who has health problems?" Its been a long time since anybody has introduced me as their African American friend.... Satori's message is BE her friend! In term of HER deliverance... How's this? "A merry heart is good medicine." Have some fricken fun with her. People can TELL if you have a hidden agenda. She either shared that with you because she's lonely or she trusts you. Whatever she showed herself friendly to you, be friendly back.

Saying Athletes of the Spirit to me is like saying "Niagra Falls" around Moe Howard of the 3 Stooges. Drives me towards a fit of anger and frustration. "Head stooge" is appropriate for Craig, especially in this context. I'm angered because he duped us ALL into diverting the focus of the whole ministry to HIM! Behind the scenes.. it was a basic bait & switch. All of us who worked on it were sworn to secrecy concerning our contributions. HQ was a buzz with it because Craig got us to buy into it. He would give these long speeches about how it was to represent all of the best of TWI, cutting edge research, production, performance, music, set design, lighting and a kick off and standard bearer for major production in our new state of the art facility! Craig had told us that we woulg get the best of the best from the ministry and let them do their thing for athletes. Instead he made everyone run everything by him for his approval. Few people knew what anyone else was doing. Basically it was a surprise to ALL of us because the first time we actually got to see it all together was at the dress rehearsals. Which were closed to the public. It was very much an "in or out" thing. I remember being SO disappointed when I saw it on opening night. HE handled it like the opening of a Bradway show and had the people involved with the production get special recognition & all that jazz. We had this believer from a set design company do a model of the set, which looked cool in miniature. On that huge stage, it looked way too sparse. The concept of flooding the stage with a rainbow that represented the presence of God turned into lights on a scrim that didn't work as originally planned. It was just too big a show to open with in a new facility that we were not really even familiar with. All of the lights and rigging that were ordered never got delivered in time for the show...The costume concepts didn't translate well from drawings to fabric. The show filled the rehearsal room area, which as it turned out was a drop in the bucket when moved to the stage. They had to expand and change the choreography to fit the stage, the moves had to be bigger, etc. What looked at least halfway decent in the rehearsal area Craig looked like a lumbering ox on the stage. Murphy had to tone her performance down so as not to make Craig REALLY look horribly bad. It was a MESS. Its a tribute to the quality of the people who did it that it looked as good as it did. I know I finally "threw up my hands" and gave in and did what LCM wanted for the poster. I had done the logo very early in the process. It for a while was a Way Publications project, which our promotional stuff for it was. He had little say over the logo, but for the poster, Way Productions was the client, Craig had approval, he completely changed my ideas into "his vision." His vision was fine, but he's not a designer, he said, put this here, this there and all I could do was "just do it." It was nowhere near my best design work. I did a decent job with the rendering, but... I wasn't really happy with it. I'm thinking other folks had the same experience with him. Those of us who did the thing were dissapointed in it too. It wasn't as good as a lot of other stuff we did. LCM loved it though. Any of you guys seen High Country Caravan?

One reality of my life is that according to the laws of Physics and Biology, I should be dead. Miracle? I am STILL in pain, every moment of every day, from the few second while scoming from LEAD in Tinnie, New Mexico in 1982 when that truck crashed and I was propelled forward at a force of about 5,000 lbs per sq. ft. smashing the windshield with my head. I walked away from it. Miracle? Of course, I think most would say. I've said that God told me in precisely enought time so that I could do the precise thing that saved my life...a miracle that I was able to do it. A miracle that He told me in a manner that communicated in a way specific to me and my capabilities at the time. A miracle that my knucklehead self actually heard and did what He said. :)--> My question afterwards on many a tear-stained and soaked pillow was: "If you saved me so damn miraculously, why was I hurt at all?" Yes, that's exactly how I put it to Him. I cannot describe how it feels to cry: not because it hurts, or the pain is so great, or that it won't stop hurting, or because you can't sleep because of the pain, or because you don't really care that you can't sleep, you care more that the pain won't stop, or that you're just tired of hurting, because it won't stop. You cry because you're tired from lack of sleep, but none of that really matters, so why then are you crying if it doesn't matter? BUT. It matters anyway, even though you feel like, "so what if it does matter?" "So what if it doesnt?" AND you cry, just because ALL of that hurts. In layers, on top of each other, and still - - after all that. It still hurts.... And it won't stop. You're happy because you're alive, happier because you're better than you were, mad as hell because you're NOT what you once were - just the shell is left. But still. It hurts.... And it won't stop. The reality of "It won't stop not stopping..." was a real revalation of taking things to "the next level" (lower). Will it ever stop? Tears. Stuff like that changes you. I don't remember what its like to not feel pain. Sometimes I think I'm not hurting, but I'm wrong. Yup. it still hurts, somewhere. What's up with that? Did I get a miracle at all? If this is a miracle, give me a shot at death, just for a few, for a few minutes, let me decide which I like better, OK? BUT. I can't seem to die from this, even THAT hurts. Only in a different, less physically painful but still incredibly painful way. I'm an "expert" on pain by now. Over the past 23 years I've been able to help, I don't know how many people deal with, I don't know how much pain of theirs. Dealing with my own pain has given me the strength to navigate situations in my own life where people close to me say constantly, "I don't know HOW you do it brother." I don't know either. I know I just don't care what pain or pressure or strees comes my way... When the smoke clears, I'll still be standing. Even if I'm not strong, I cand BE strong at a given moment. I know I didn't have that strength and confidence before. I don't know that without the pain I'd have it now. I know I can understand things I couldn't before the pain. I know I have fathered children since then that would not be alive had my neck snapped like a twig when my head hit that windshield at 45+ MPH. I believe each one of them is a miracle, beyond the "normal miracle" of child birth. Physically speaking, I SHOULD be dead. I was inches from suicide along the way to where I am now - prior to the births of my sons. Now there are two little copies of me for Satan to deal with, each unique in his own way. Then there's the three girls... I think God turned what Satan meant for harm into good. I worked WITH Him to will and to do of His good pleasure... not too shabby for me either. Miracles.

Satan has completely obscured the miraculously loving FACT that God, Himself, breathes the breath of life into every living thing on this planet. God actively sustains every moment of life we get. That's pretty darn good of Him if you ask me. Lucifer, now called Satan has spent the past 6,000+ years of life on the planet doing his level, and extremely powerful best to screw God's thing up. HE, Satan is the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Lucifer is the author of death and the father of lies. Occasionally he is successful. It's not, "Some people don't get the miracle." The numbers of people who die, get injured hurt or devastated in any way is not testimony to "God not healing everybody" it is a testament to how prevalent Satan's steal, kill and destroy thing actually is. We must not forget the miracle of every single breath we take. As they say, "That's what I'm talkin' about!" That statement itself actually says that God IS a respecter of persons BECAUSE "not everybody gets equal benefits, DO they?" I'm not talkin' about Oakie, but the fact that it is Satanically woven into the fabric of our culture to disguise the fact that ALL DEATH, sickness, lies and evil comes from Satan, not God. Satan has cast God in his "play" as a semi benevolent, semi malovelent yet jealous, absent minded three headed puppeteer who plays with the lives of his puppets at His own whim. "I'll heal this one, forget THAT one. Bless one sicken two, bless one sicken two..." - - as He knits together the fabric of time on his pet planet. - - - - - - - - We say, "Not every body gets healed do they?" That statement puts the cart before the spiritual horse. It obscures the blame for death and suffering from Satan and places it at God's feet. What they said to Jesus, "If you had been here my brother would not have died."... is a LIE from hell. The WHOLE truth is, HAD SATAN NOT KILLED YOUR BROTHER I wouldn't have needed to have been there to save him. Forgive me, as it is not my intention to disparage anyone in any way, but it is becoming more clear to me on a regular basis why life on this planet now, is not the "it" that God's eternal grace, mercy and love has in store for us. When we start to see it more from HIS POV, our lives and more importantly, our untimely deaths and our suffering carry less and less significance. I have suffered greatly and continue to suffer in this life. So please don't think I'm talking "down" to any one. I actually do see signs, miracles and wonders on a daily basis. I think sometime we miss seeing them while we look for them under ever rock, so to speak. His Word in James tells us the "benefits," trials and tribulations bring to our lives. It also tells us how things Satan brings upon us with evil intent, HE can and does work in us for good. Including the most heinous loss ANY of us, His children, suffer. Somehow from HIS P.O.V. "getting the miracle" we know with all of our heart that we want, need and deserve is truly not THE best thing for us. I know, "tell that to a mother who has just lost her child...." For the ONE WHO DIES. God has made THEIR next moment of consciousness a new, perfect body, with Jesus upon his return. Not too shabby. IF we REALLY believed that, we would not feel so much pain in an untimely death or any death or any tribulation or trial. That's a little beyond us, "therefore comfort one another with these words." God lovingly knows we will suffer loss and "in every thing ... makes a way of escape." We can get to the point when we can actually "count it all joy;" when we get close enough to Him that we actually believe all of the things James says trials & tribs will make unto us. God is NOT a respecter of persons, PERIOD. Its is no more "Either/ or else" than I can say. "Either I'm a millionare or the are conditions sometimes when I can buy stuff." I am NOT a MILLIONARE, like period. :(--> God's perfection binds Him to His laws, else if we jumped off "The Empire State Building," we'd bounce, harmlessly. Satan knows that. God's plan for us ia always good, Satan's evil. Satan wants to blur the line on God's side and get us to think... "God really doesn't love you. He's NOT really ALL good, IF He were, why would he let you suffer... like THIS!" When HE slaps us. WE are distracted by the pain while he says, "See, THAT guy over THERE got HEALED, WHY won't God heal you too?" What we don't see through the pain is that the very question comes from HELL (or wherever Satan is). If we saw clearly the source of the question we'd turn from it. We'd eschew it. We wouldn't entertain it. We would turn more completely from Satan than we do. We would not go with God and "look back" like Lot's wife. Then we might not get hit as often and need the healing in the first place. God's plan in the midst of this mess is that we all draw nearer to Him. The United States is SOOO far away from God as a whole society - - we can't even smell him from here.

I think that would be a great idea. Highway. Not from a discrediting POV, but many people lived, how can I put it, "varying truths" in TWI through the years. Some truthful and factual accounts contradict from one person to another. Some things were taught as "truth" in one area and in another were taught the opposite... Some things are a matter of an individual's perspective... Still other things were passed on to people who believed what they were told but the tellers themselves weren't "right" in what they said. I don't think you can fault Karl. Even if he has an axe to grind and it motivated him to write.... Who didn't?

If I got caught posting on my honeymoon my wife would .... Hey, I don't HAVE a wife!

Ok... but what did he think of Momentus? CES? I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I of CES would adress the issue of CES being, maybe, too much like TWI in terms of following the latest fad of the day. It seems like Momentus was "the latest thing" thing of the day at one point in CES??? Does that kind of thinking bother anyone but me? I know people are apt to play follow the leader and want to be a part of the "in thing" (Did anybody see "the Donald" on the Emmy's the other day?) but from when I'm sitting that stuff made CES a little scary for me. In terms of history repeating itself.

Thanks for sharing your path "back" Mark. Mine is very similar. I avoided "trinity issues" like the plague when I first went to a church, for the same basic reason as you. It was so long ago that I had "forgotten" this: The primary reason I went back to a church was that I recognized the need to be amongst a body of believers who would love me and have my back in fellowship and prayer. Reason #2 was that I found that the burning desire I had that drew me to the Way Corps was still very much alive in me. "Natural leadership ability and a burning desire to learn God's Word and serve His people." Was TWI's published reason one should "go Corps." I felt I was called by God. I had remained faithful to that calling when I told John Shroyer to his face that I would NOT EVER sign anything giving my allegiance like that to Craig or ANY man. I told him that I was committed to standing with and following Jesus Christ. Then asked him, "If I'm a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ and standing with HIM, you're standing with Jesus, Craig and the trustees are standing with Jesus... aren't we ALL standing together already?" Of course he didn't like, nor accept that position. That being said, I reached a point after doing the "on my own" thing where the need for fellowship (and mostly a "hedge of prayer" where I was praying for others) and being prayed for was a primary and most notable missing element from my life. Fast forwarding to today, I now have that, as well as a support system, but that pesky trinity issue comes up regularly, in the worship service. Occasionally "trinitarian" concepts come up in the songs we sing. Long story short... I've come to the point now after looking from the "other perspective" that I understand this one thing about God: "As the heaven is high above the Earth, so are His ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts." Thats it. When it comes to God's ways and God's thoughts, I don't know JACK. If that's not good enough I understand, "...for God is in heaven and you on the Earth therefore, let thy words be few." So there are some things I have very little to say about. As a child of God, I've learned a LOT about how to be a child from my own children. In my two marriages, altogether, I've raised seven. I have five now, two of the stepdaughters from marriage #1 are adults on their own. I watch my little ones and they teach me how little some things matter to how you live your everyday life. "What's that Daddy?" I've had each child ask at ages 3 - 8 over and over again over the past 20 years. Each time, without exception I've said, "That's a ____________________." They say, "Ok." and many times bounce along their merry little way. Many times the girls give Daddy a kiss, I give them a pat & send them along their happy little way. I punch the boys & push them so they fall over. They tumble across the room, giggling and get up and stumble over something, breaking it as they go. I've often smiled, knowing they have NO IDEA what "that" actually is. They are happy. They tell the littler one, when the next one down the line asks, "Daddy said that's a _________________." In FULL confidence that they KNOW what is is. I've laughed, sometimes out loud, and then we all laugh, from the big ones to the littlest, when the little one gets it so comically "wrong." I've said, "No it isn't. It isn't that. It doesn't matter to me how wrong they are. Even when they THINK they KNOW they know... I KNOW they have no real idea. "Oh yes it IS Daddy, you said so..." I scoop the little one up in my arms and give them my customary, "Daddy loves you!" Hug 'em, squeeze them "to death" tickle them until they can't stand it no more, then finally let them go. They prance away, again on their merry little way. This time there's an extra little pep in their step cause they've been assurred that..."Daddy loves them." As they leave I often hear an older one in scolding tone to the younger... "I told you it wasn't...." I say, "Stop it! cut the little one a break they tried..." Another verse comes to mind, "... if you, being evil can love your children like that, how much more can your Father, which is in heaven love you?" Then comes another verse. "The hidden things of God... are clearly seen by that which is made, even His eternal power and Godhead." As a child, I can understand, God is THE father, My father; Jesus Christ is HIS son, MY brother. Anything beyond that is no more for my understanding that it was when my son, around five years old asked, "Daddy why do we always come here and you give that lady money all da time? Sometimes you write her a note and she gives YOU money Daddy...why?" I CRACKED UP! He didn't understand that the lady was my favorite teller at our local bank and I was doing "my banking." Like children all we ACTUALLY do is make reference to "the truth" based on what we see and THINK we understand anyways. I no longer sweat over "truth, accuracy & integrity of the Word;" stuff like that. Now that I've stopped that stuff, I'm amazed at how much more I see and "understand." The pride & arrogance you mentioned, Mark, is SO directly tied to an attitude that prevails among "researchers." One thing VPW taught that I wish he prevailed better in his ministry was, "To explain something you have to be bigger than what you're explaining." If we don't carry the correct, humble attitude when handling God's word, we disqualify ourselves, by simple proximity, to be able to handle it "correctly." I see humility as a "location" where God operates. If one is not humble, he's just not there where God operates. Therefore I agree with you that ANYONE who humbles himself before God and asks for His Divine Mercy will recieve it. Our humility in seeking Him can "transport" us to where God operates and we can recieve his blessings. No matter WHAT we call Him. All God cares about is that our heart cries out to Him. I now believe that God's people are everywhere. They can be found in ANY church, in any denomination, Catholics, Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, even Athiests and Agnostics, I've even talked to Wiccans and some who profess to be Satanists that I was pretty darn sure were born again. Getting born again is a HEART thing. Our study of His Word and obedience to it is works. His salvation in us justifies us against the sinful works that WILL come from our hearts. Because we're born into sin. I've talked to some Christians who profess to be and are considered "pillars of the church" that I'm not so sure of their heavenly status - - to put it gently. Frankly. I'm now CONVINCED that "on that great and notable day" there will be HUGE suprises as far as who actually goes and who stays. I believe a LOT of "christians" are gonna hear the trump of God and "jump" in anticipation of being "caught up." Then their "two inch verticle" will come into play... when they land on the spot they were standing in. "Many are called, few are chosen." "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." ALL Americans are filthy rich men. THAT is a global reality. God is the God of the WHOLE world... Our American asses are in BIG trouble when it comes to eternity. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches." GOD, I'm TRYING my BEST to get this things RIGHT! When I first heard of JCNG I wondered what was the big deal? "Are the Dead Alive NOW?" was a stupid question to me. I remember thinking, "Um, they ARE dead, right?... so...." I really didn't care if they were in heaven or not, I really don't care who Jesus and God "are." All I care about is that I know them. I just wanted to KNOW the truth. I worked them books HARD, like you I "LEARNED" the material. I even went so far as to highlight EVERY scripture concerning every topic in VPW's books in code in my Bible, so I could flip through it and pick out scriptures "in support of the truth" at any given moment. I'll tell you man, Studying, really studying and fighting yourself to BELIEVE 1st, 2nd & 3rd John can really take us, as Christians, "behind the woodshed." "If we say we love God and hate our brother we LIE and the truth is NOT in us." "Wierwillian PFAL logic" would speak to that verse and say that means "you either HAVE the truth in you, or you DON'T." Talk about your mental gymnastics! I now believe that the undeniable proof in the senses world of the presence of the new birth in your life is your LIFE, itself. IF a person is born again of God's seed they WILL act like it. PERIOD. A most clear indication of it is how one treats his "brother." There is no requirement that a person have a doctorate degree or "knowledge of God's word" to know how to "love" his brother. DUH. Didn't JESUS say "love your neightbor as you, yourself would want to be loved"...? I'm not saying we shouldn't study (...to show thyself approved unto God... etc.) but. Our attitude in so doing must place us in the right "location." On my path, At one point I was talking to someone about Bible stuff, They said "Man you should start your own church!" He asked how did I come to know so much Bible, I told him a little about the WC and years of experience ministering. Then he said, quite adamantly too, "Then WHY haven't you? People need the stuff you know, isn't it SELFISH to keep it to yourself?" I didn't have a good answer for that one. After much prayerful consideration I felt, and still do, that God's work has been around for thousands of years, if I have SOOO much to offer, how much sense does it make for me to start a "new work?" There are churches all over the country crying out to God daily for HELP in ministry. Why would God call someone to start a new church? Would mine be so much DIFFERENT from the one on the next corner? Would I be so much BETTER than the next preacher? I think not. It then dawned on me that the desire to be "king" was a primary motivator in people's hearts for starting new churches. I don't want to BE king I want to serve THE King of Kings. With that in mind, my question then was where should I go? I wound up where I am now. I contribute and make a significant positive difference in the whole church, as do many others of our members. WE are REALLY tring to get this whole God thing right. God we REALLY are! I haven't had a trinity argument in at least 20 years. Don't remember off hand when the last one was. Never won a trinity argument from the first one back in summer of 1976. Never lost one either. Every one I've ever been in was a stalemate. If I can agree that WE really want to try and get it right before God in general, I focus on what we know we can agree on. "Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof" why add to it?

Why thank you Kathy. I've enjoyed reading it too.

"Yo MOMMA's a stick." Might work for me. I've run into a few innes over the past year or so, It sometimes amazes me how vulgar some of them are. MOst of the people I deal with on a day to day basis are not believers (technically I guess). Just average folks on the street or in offices, or out & about are not quite so base in the things they say. Seems to me that a lot of innies are "lewd fellos of the baser sort." Is it me, or is it them?

If someone is projecting when they deflect what they say someone ELSE was projecting, is it projecting, deflecting, reflecting, or just rejecting. Or is all of the above rejecting, so my question is moot?