HCW

I've seen that tendancy too, Oakie. It is a hard pill to swallow, admitting that no matter how you look at it we were ALL deceived in one way shape or form, just by being involved. Personally, I don't think that VPW set out to build a cult. He did, however, relish the power & adulation of being "the man," who wouldn't? I think he just didn't control his lusts and allowed them to get the better of him. Even though I, after working at HQ for so long and spending a good deal of time w/ him, never had any actual knowledge of the rumors of illicit activities. I "knew" there had to be some truth to it when he jumped all over Harve Platig's song, "The Man I Know to Be." I never really bought the spin he put on it when he said this was something true of all of us. I mean like, of course, who among us is perfect? Romans tells us quite plainly that we will NEVER be "the man I know to be" in this life. From that standpoint, the song meant squat to me. BUT. Factor in what we've found to be the truth of VPW's behavior and we ALL wish HE were the man HE knew to be. That song doesn't hold a candle to the ones we've mentioned in this thread, from this time frame we're talking about. To me it seemed a feeble attempt to catch the lightning in a bottle again. Was it just me, or did it always seem "dark" whenever Harve played/sanf that song? America Awakes... That show is as timely TODAY as it was then. We're on God's Team was a great follow-up to it. I'm wondering... have the relative TWI newbies EVER heard this stuff??? Have you ever heard these albums, songs we're talking about?

Thanks for the info WhiteDove. B) This just about sums up the whole TWI experience. Personally I think they just never thought about how inevitable it is that this would happen. The question is, did they just not see it or did they not care enough to see it. They being VPW and the second set of trustees. I just don't see Uncle Harry & Ermal Owens as the type to support the illicit personal gains the trustees experienced. It was not long after the time frame of this thread that Ermal & Harry died. Both VPW and Harry shared publickly that he, Harry was the only person in the world who could get VP to rein himself in. They originally set up TWI w/three trustees, specifically those other two men, so that there would be a two to one vote that could keep VP "from doing some crazy thing."

Yo ToadFriend! Thanks for the chorus to Freedom Soil. Yes it is a very powerful song. I believe, were it released today it would sell a LOT of copies, especially in the Christian Contemporary category. I don't remember the whole song, but the chorus came to mind: "And then the Captain of salvation, Like a lighthouse in the night, Guided me into the harbor of God's love, He gave me shelter from the tempest, He's the prince of peaceful seas, Anchored in the harbor of God's love." Maybe this isn't the thread fot it but.... It always puzzled me, to put it nicely, that TWI never even attempted to market all that music mainstream. That fact alone cast dispersion on the top leadership as far as I was concerned. None of their reasoning for not doing it made ANY sense to me. People who wrote the songs should consider updating them and putting them out there. Yes, I'm aware of the way that TWI holds onto their copyright issues like a pit bull. However, anyone who wrote songs while working on staff can actually present a good case that could prevail (no pun intended) in court should they actually go beyond their lawyers strong arm threats.

I think we did have actual beef burgers in the Snack Shop Johhny L. Maybe it was just on Sundays??? One of the specialties quite a few people ate was popcorn & ice cream. I brought an electric popcorn popper in residence and had popcorn most every night. The popper was the kind that cooks with oil and can actually be used to cook other stuff. I remember stories of how the 6th Corps invented a whole line of snack foods cooked in popcorn poppers, most notably donuts. Yes. They made DONUTS in their dorm rooms! You know Belle, we actually had more fun than "ugliness." We actually WERE fun. There wasn't a whole lot of reconciling the fun w/the ugly, especially our first in residence year. It did seem to get "worser & worser" during 82-83. Yeah TLBumgartner... I always liked John Lynn. I first heard of him/ met him when he was Limb Leader of NY and I was in PA. He was intense, driven, but VERY funny and a likeable guy. Fair, honest all that good stuff. I can remember being really HAPPY that he was WC Cordinator when I went in. He did a great job w/ us at Emporia. He'd yell at us, but ihe wasn't degrading that I remember, his reproof seemed to fit the training. We were training to lead God's people, BIG responsibility, he expected a LOT from us. I think the way he is now is more like the way he was back then, maybe even before his Corps Cordinator days. Did you know he wasn't a Corps grad? He got the WCCordinator job w/o being a Corps grad. I think that accounted for how much fun we had. BUT it seems like everthing changed after VP died. the whole thing went south. People changed, went hard acted more & more like the TWI II, gestapo types. The vas majority of WC who stayed w/TWI were wannabes. The ones who WANTED to be considered aamong the best in their corps groups but weren't. One who wanted the big position but didn't get it while others who left had them.. That's really stuff for another thread though.

(((((((((Excie)))))))))) smooch!

Thanks Sunesis. You guys on the Emporia staff were among the good ones too. Most times it seemed like you were there to pick up the pieces when the rigors of the Corps Program cracked people. That reminds me, the College Division folks at Emporia were, IMO, as a group some of the finest people in TWI. They had a really great catbird seat perspective of the Corps program without being "trapped" in it like us WC were. Speaking of getting away.... Again at a mealtime, supper this time... we actually, for the most part, appreciated the food but all those creative, culinary creations left us loooonging and desparate for "normal" stuff. Here we are at the table, again staring at some food nobody really wanted to eat. Garland Harris, a great friend of mine at the time leaned forward and said to a general chorus of "amen brother's" and the like, "Gee. What I would give for a hamburger." I leaned forward looked over at him and said something like, " Ummm, a HAMburger, I remember hamburgers. Ohhh, my kingdom for a hamburger - REAL burger, one with actual beef, ground up cow - - meat, buns; the evil white bread, I don't care if it kills me - - I'd do pretty much ANYthing for a burger, right NOW. We had the whole table going, describing in great detail, the delights of a simple hamburger. There was a college division student sitting between Garland and I. We kept talking about how there was an actual McDonalds restaurant - - just minutes away - - they had BURGERS there - - they were SO close - - if the wind was right - - MAYBE we could smell one. Garland said, "If only we could get there..." I said "YES!, we could get a burger there." We bantered this way back & forth right through the college division guy, "Alas! We COULD get there" Yes to a BURGER! If only we had a car, a VEHICLE! BUT. We are not allowed to go. Yes. I have a car, I said, but I"m not allowed to help YOU! So close! Yet so far away.... "Sigh." The whole table sorta slumped our heads to one side, Awww..... Garland says, "IF we only knew someone." I said, "Yes, Someone who could go for us." Someone who might say, were HE allowed to go. Here am I send ME. HE could go - - If only, a friend - a GREAT friend, in fact, A great friend would go for us, in his car, he'd go, He's ALLOWED to go, and get for us - - A burger. TWO all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a .... Then College Division guy broke. OK, YES! STOP IT! I'LL go! I'll go already! Just Stop!!! PLEASE! We all cracked up. We put together a plan. The CD guy got his van and after supper left from behind the campus center, Garland & I rushed back to our rooms to get some $$$. I literally zoomed my bike up to the moving van, jumped off of it and lept into the side door of the van Dukes of Hazard style. We went to McDonalds bought some burgers and ate them in the basement of Wierwille while people were filing in to be on time for class. We bought some extra fries and fed them to our desparate corps brothers & sisters whom God led to be a little early. We sat at a table like the Godfather. "For this chicken McNugget, you must pledge your next peanut butter sesame seed bar from this sunday's sack supper. Stuff like that. It was hilarious, selling people a chance to smell the bag, etc. John Lynn walked by... We froze for a second, then pointed to college division guy, "He did it. He went FOR us." "Wanna bite?" John did that familiar snarl thing he did all the time & said, "Carry on..."

Thanks for the kind words all. B) How can I mention how rowdy we were without giving some examples? One of our most regular times of getting in trouble was in the dining room at meals. Remember how they used to feed us all this ultra healty food that nobody wanted to eat? We really were fed well but of course we wanted stuff like burgers and pizza, which we NEVER got fed. The gave us these soy/fallaffle burger shaped things once and we cheered when we saw them. Then people started literally screaming, "These aint no burgers! EWE, Yuk! What IS this stuff!"... things like that. John Lynn had his apartment wired so he could yell at us when he wasn't even in the room. We snickered through him reproving us about how thankful we should be for all the hard work Willie Thomas (an 8th Corps good guy) and his kitchen crew put into getting us such healthy food. There was always a comment from "way over there" like, "We're thankful for it all right, we just aint gonna EAT it." This particular day they served us the infamous broccoli - millet caserole. They served it in scoops that looked like lime green igloos with green tree roots sticking out of it. Whenever we had it we'd just sit and look at it and make lots of crude jokes about it. We'd just crack up! ... then go back to your room & eat the apple or those peanutbutter honey & sesame seed bar things you had stashed from the last sack supper trade wars on the ramp to the campus center. ( I also have to admit, ladies, that a LOT of lunch or dinner "dates", especially on Sundays, were made according to the relative size and how little we knew you'd eat ratios. Us guys would get together and plan and try to stack tables with women who we'd previously scoped out that didn't eat very much. Thay way the plurality bowls would have more food and the big guys could get enough to eat on days when seconds from the kitchen were scarce. Its not that we didn't like you, its just that at meal times some guys REALLY liked the little ladies :-)) However. The really big guys would eat anything when they got hungry enough and this day we were especially hungry as I remember, maybe from one of those work day things or somethin'. Since few people were eating it was especially loud and we had been making these broccoli millet mountains on the "plurality bowls." Then the announcement came from the kitchen over the loudspeaker, "Seconds are available." A wave of loud laughter rolled through the room. Then Larry Ramberg, I think it was, got up to go get seconds, then another big guy, Dave ( forget his last name sorry) & a couple others went for more. We started cheering! Like YAY! SOME-body's gonna eat this stuff! They started dancing and walking and presenting the food like "lovely assistant" women do on The Price Is Right. The whole place erupted, people rolling on the floor laughting - that kind of thing. John really reamed us bad that day. We hid our faces & laughed some more... to John's saying... "This isn't funny!" That made it all the more funny. We even got him to crack that time.... He yelled at us for that. We laughed some more.

There were tons of great folk in the Way Corps. I must confess, I'm a Corps Grad myself; 11th to be exact. I feel like our whole group (in general) was a bunch of really great people. We were the largest group in the history of the corps (over 500 on opening day) and to a man, we really loved each other, even the ones of us we didn't like, we loved them because they were part of the "us." We became family. Say what you like about John Lynn but he was the catalyst that built our group, he drummed the "We're in this thing together" concept into our heads. We were LOUD, rowdy and completely out of control in that "Animal House" John Belushi kinda way. We were CONSTANTLY getting in trouble in residence for breaking the rules. As a group we have a blue million hilarious stories about the exploits we did. A good bit of them involve our "RULES!, We don't need no stinking RULES!" attitude. At least one of us was in trouble for something EVERY single day. The rest of us who knew about it were laughing about it. Yes, someone mentioned Glenn Edmonson earlier up the thread. He was 11th Elite (as was our nickname JAL gave us, I think it was...) and I'd say Glenn personified the heart of the 11th Corps. He & I were good friends. We were on LEAD 104 (Growl when you say that, buddy) together, the group of "losers" & misfits that the "leadership" decided were not "ready" to finish our training. Glenn stuck by my side and did everything in his power to make sure I was ok in the aftermath of the LEAD accident at Tinnie. We fought at times like cats & dogs but when it came right down to it, we'd come together like nobody's business. We were as faithful and steadfast as we were irrerevernt. There was just a slight difference of opinion as to when we should and when we should not toe the line. :P It's like excathedra said, my experience in The Way Corps was college. The friendships I made there were close and everlasting. I was, am and always will be proud to call myself one of the 11th Corps. In fact, our group picture hangs on my wall today.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit it but I didn't see it as a power play until that day the guy put it to me that way. The embarrassing part is that I squlched the power paly angle in my mind even though it occurred to me on the night that CG read POP that he might just be trying to take over. "Naw, it MUST be more than THAT, he's trying to FIX things." Even though I KNEW that the way he was going about it was not the way to fix anything. I've come to hate it when people say "things." WHAT things, what exactly are you talking about? is always my response. It is only common sense to be skeptical when people won't get specific with you. I'm more than a little embarrassed to have fallen for the crap. Especially since I prided myself in being one of the ones NOT under the TWI influence. Point being that if you're "in" TWI at all, you're under the influence. You can't be "in" without being "under." Especially nowadays. Even though I didn't get into the whole CG , Gartmore is the new center of the move of God's Word thing, I wasn't completely FREE of the influence. The guy who asked me about it wasn't under the TWI influence at all. he saw it very clearly. A good sign of being under the influence is denying or being blind to very simple, common sense realities that, as the saying goes, "If it was a snake it woulda bit you."

One thing I found interesting. It probably helped either bring me out of the mental fog that rests over the TWI Wayworld or helped keep me from succombing to the fog. It was early in 1990.. I had been off staff by then for about 18 months and at the time was working, running the art dept. at the St. Marys Evening Leader Newspaper. (Side note: H. Allen, when he fired me from staff actually said, sarcastically, "Why don't you go work for the Evening Liar...." After I had finished a long freelance project, I actually did that. BTW they paid me more, half again as much more than TWI was paying me AND my wife combined. Reminds me of a scripture that says that God turns what others mean as evil towards you, His people, to good.) Anyways. as one of the executive team at the Leader, I had continual contact with virtually every business in town and their execs, as they all advertised in our paper. Factor in the small town, everybody knows everybody factor. This became very intersting to me.... I've said before that when I walked away from TWI I didn't look back. So even living in NK and working in the area I knew very little to nothing about what was going on out there at the time. Frankly mty dear, I didn't give a _ _ _ _ . It happened more than once that business leaders in the community, would mention to me, "Quite a power struggle going on out there at The Way, right?" They assumed, that because of my past involvement that I knew more of it than they and were actually thinking I might be able to provide them with some of the straight dope on it. The point of all of this... To people who were NEVER "IN", never exposed to the fog, so to speak, to those who had some real business acumen: THE WHOLE THING WAS NEVER ANYTHING MORE THAN A BASIC POWER STRUGGLE. The exact same thing that has been going on for centuries. When the monarch grows old and dies, the minions ALWAYS fight over the remaining kingdom. Period. It happens in families, businesses, monarchies, everywhere, all the time. Yet when it comes to TWI this somehow wasn't a power struggle, it was the faithful valet's last ditch effort to save the ministry. BULL. There IS a fog over TWI there IS an influence they cast over TWI people. We ALL were either under it, adjacent to it, beside it, or in the middle of it nurturing it and casting it over others. This is part of the fog, man. I think, that people who acknowledge themselves as free and independant thinkers, see their freewill involvement in certain aspects of "the ministry" as part of their own free and independant thinking. I pose this question: Just WHY do we need to have a single "man who carries the spiritual torch?" That thinking is the nucleus of the FOG. Jesus Christ is the man who "carries the spiritual torch." Wasn't it GOD who called it the CROSS?? This "man who carries the spiritual torch" concept is counterfeit. Based on what God accomplished via Jesus, we ALL "carry the spiritual torch" no ONE more than ANY other. WAKE UP America. Blessings.

You know Exie, I believe that telling details, no matter how lurid, of the experiences like you shared concerning the delivering of the dogs paint mental pictures that are worth thousands and thousands more words than the vast majority of the other stuff we've discussed here. Reason being that accounts like the doggy thing are the missing link for many many people. They speak directly to the root character of these men. My brother is an actor, a good one, a professional. He has, as well as any with similar talents, an "on stage" persona. Actors all know that you cannot believe what you see of actors when you see them sitting with Jay leno or Dave, or whomever. One must be very estute to carve through to "see" what is ther of THEM when they are "on. Whatever was said or done, CG was "ON" at the clergy meetings. Whenever he taught or spoke publickly in any way - - ON. They showed us what they wanted us to see in them whenever. This to me accounts for the HUGE disparity when it comes to who VPW was to whom. CG as well. I never saw him when he wasn't "ON," therefore he was to me, as I saw him, which was what he wanted me to see of him then. This makes my view of him skewed in the direction he wanted it to go. Of course we all do this in life, we all have our masks. BUT. When the was with VP, sharing what was for the both of them a passion at near the root of their character and Barbie "dared" flow cross purposes to it; BAM in the heart of the moment, "of the abundance of their hearts," they spoke... YOU witnessed it. Your witness can counter the skew effect and bring a view of then back to "true north," so to speak. What is/was CG doing? Precisely what he did. Dismantling TWI. I'm leaning toward what Sunesis & others have suggested that God had some part in using the whole CG thing to shock some of us into waking up and getting out. I can't say for sure if I would have stayed longer than I did w/o the events that followed POP, but I do think I was there at the time longer than I perhaps, should have been. Its defintely debatable, although I don't self debate it, because out is out is out. When I think of my time in TWI these days any internal debate I have is in terms of "are you REALLY out or what?" Being out of TWI is a GOOD thing. I'm sure I can find a scripture to that effect. Speaking of out, I think the truth should come out, all of it, each person in their own time as to when they feel they can or want to share it. For me, when I hear of VP and CG becoming stark raving madmen concerning the birth of a dog.... When you tell of your witness of his violating his wife, when others tell of their ugly remarks in the name of counseling... giving advice that any person would agree is pornographic, to say the least; that helps. It helps me personally to factor your witness into my own witness of these men. Especially when I can bear witness of how he/they treated the dogs, one of which you witnessed being born. For brevity's sake, they "treated them LIKE DOGS!" Your stories fill gaps, answers some questions that mybe I didn't know I had. (Like HOW can you treat a dog you say you LOVE and is such a prized animal like THAT? ??? In the name of training? I'm glad I'M not your DOG. I wouldn't hunt for you either... OBEY you? No way.) More accurately, I overlooked the questions, maybe for the clear lack of coherent answers to them. I'm thinking my brain filled in the blanks with my own desires of what I felt they should be, or what I WANTED them to be. That's not healthy baby. Your experiences, not matter who lurid really do and CAN have great value in these forums.... for all of us, please share. Thanks for what you have already shared BTW. You know I love you girl, B)

I finally "took the class" (PFAL) in October of 76. Looking back on that time now, I'd have to say it was the music, the majority of it by Joyful Noise; but it was the overall quality; musical, compositional, lyrical content and how it was so solidly based on God's Word that caused me to want to commit my spiritual life to TWI. In fact I have, stored in my basement, copies of the albums, still in their cellophane wrappers: "There's a Place" by Paul Vergilio "America Awakes" by JN "All Aboard! With Victor Paul Wierwille" (VP reading some favorite poetry and other readings set to music.) Also produced and released in 1976. "Heartbeat" by JN and Pressed Down Shaken Together and Running Over. Released in 77. Of the matching blue polyester suits! Lapels so wide you could use them as wing and fly if you ran fast enough! :P :blink: I also have an autographed copy of Joyful Noise's "We're On God's Team" and TAKIT's self titled album. It was the music, that to me set the tone and made TWI different, and unique from other ministries of the day. I remember the much ad about the US takeover too. I also have, somewhere in a box, a copy of the constitution of "The New States of America" (or something like that). I never read the whole constitution thing, but I distinctly remember, like someone else said, feeling like we, as Christians, were doing our part to save our country. I felt America Awakes was SO thoughtful, respectful and dignified. BUT. It had a sharp point to it . Wake UP America! With God above we've goutta love our country! Wake UP, America WAKE UP! I felt that was so cool and was honored to be a part of it. .................................................... Thanks for bringing back the remembrance of that song Dean Ellenwood used to sing. (Brian Bliss used to sing "The Captain of Salvation") I don't remember the name of it either, but it started out something to the effect of: "I'm proud of my country's heritage, (something, something) because we're free, I won't forget the men who died who gave their life for me...." I wish I remembered all of the words to that song too. Ultra patriotic, it had the same effect on couds as Lee Greenwood's proud to be an American song has. The way it ended, "when men to Him are loyal..." really tugged at the heart. Yeah, songs don't get any better than Ted's, "The Whitehouse Across the Street." Lot's of chills & thrills. Our little twig from the Pittsburgh Pa area went to three Joyful Noise concerts on the AM Awakes tour. We were high school kids and really stoked by the whole idea, "let's go save the country!" We didn't really care from whom we were saving it, we didn't really if the rumors were even true or not, we just knew God was gonna come through. No matter what, takeover or not America needed to WAKE UP! ... so we were there, man, there. It felt SO good to be commited to something bigger than ourselves.... Felt like we were a part of "something." I've said before that I felt that VPW's ministry saw glimpses of true Godliness and that it had a chance to actually be "God's ministry" (whatever that actually means). It was this time frame that I'm referring to. That God In America, seguay into America Awakes tours, IMO was hardly the stuff cults were made of. It seemed like were were actually trying to do something good and right for the whole country. Even if the takeover thing was a little far fetched and overly paranoid, to me it seemed like our heart was in the right place. There were a lot of conspiracy theories floating around then; lots of anti war talk, nobody liket the government, the establishment was BAAADD, man (throw in a Cheech & Chong accent :huh: ). We saw real signs miracles and wonders in our area. Our little twig mad a positive difference in the lives of the people in it. One of our guys got off drugs, another came out of satanist activity and I, a 17 yr. old recent PFAL grad was able to argue a PHD, Presbetarian Minister to an open Bible stalemate on the Trinity topic. There was a lot of deprogramming going on then, our people around the ministry were being snatched like flies by Ted Patrick and others. In fact, the reason I was talking to the minister was that he was trying to get one of the girls (Joanie) in our twig away from us to be deprogrammed. They actually did get the girl whisked away out the back door while I was in debating withthe minister in his office. They were calling us a cult out of one side of their mouth and kidnapping people out of the other - - was how I saw it then. Las I heard of her, she was pregnant with the baby of the guy who was overseeing their "after you get out of the cult" program. I remember hearing lots of good things about the WOW branches in Allentown, State College, and other PA areas too. This time frame was the first time I saw LCM do his presentation on The Way Corps. He was amiable, and a very dynamic speaker. Appreciated it that he taught without coming across as a "turn the other cheek" wimpy kinda guy, which was prevalent then. We also did a lot of Heartbeat Festivals then. It was cool how there seemed to be a constant and consistant contact from HQ to people on the field. To me, a lot of people were teaching the Bible, it was the other stuff that TWI did that I though made us unique. My first ROA was in 76 at the fair grounds in Sidney. Gerald Wren's teaching on the last days of Jesus' life had a profound effect on me. They did a play at night in one of the tents where they did a scene depicting Jesus torture, and beatings. It was highly stylized with slow motion and strobe lights. They put a bag over Jesus" head and the guards beat him and beat him and beat him. When they finall finished and presented him to Pilate, a guard RIPPED the bag off his head and the actor's face was a so swollen, bloody mass that you couldn't recognize his features as being a human. The croud gasped at that sight. It seemed like they were really trying to make God's word live for people. Seeing men built like athletes talking about God really made an impression on me. I felt like this was a really effective way to reach people with God's Word, by making it come to life for them via music and other visual production methods. That year (76) was when I decided that I wanted to add my God given talents to the mix. I came on staff officially in 1979 with the intent of TWI never having to hire an outside agency again to produce professional quality artwork for its publications. The OSC shell was finished and Way Publications was among the first departments to move our operations there in late 79. We produced VPW's "Love Letters" album that year. There is a cut on that album where VPW said that we could achieve Word Over The World by, (memory is foggy) it think it was 1990. I distinctly remember how that comment went largly unnoticed. So much so that I don't remember the date he mentioned. I DO remember him mentioning a date for that possibility, IF we remained faithful. Yup. Still have that album too. Two copies, I think. One was an autographed gift from VPW that he personally presented to everyone who had a part in the production. We also did mini tours with The Way Dance Company that year, winter of 79 and into 1980. I did lighting and helped drive the van. We'd do weekend trips (within half a day's drive) set up and do a show Saturday evening, leave for HQ Sunday to be back home to HQ get some rest and be at work Monday AM. 1979/80 was one of the last years, if not the last, of "family life" at HQ. Like it said in "The Way Living in Love" (Elena Whiteside's book) we could go down to the kitchen in the BRC basement and pig out on midnite snacks. There was a group of the ususal suspects who'd be down there often sitting aound eating and laughing about this, that or the other thing. Ralph D. was one of the regular regulars wo'd be there a lot. It was mostly guys, & it seemed like we were on the same biological clock. Jon Mahoney was always there working, getting stuff ready for breakfast, putting stuff away, whatever. He'd serve stuff or we'd just go into the fridge & grab stuff. Jon would heat it up or we'd grub on it cold. Basicall nothing was off limits. It was really like home and we were like a big family in a lot of ways. VP always said then that HQ was the property of the believers and that any believer should have access to any piece of equipment that was sitting around, not being used for the work of the ministry. For example: If your twig needed photocopies of a flyer about some twig activity, in theory you could come to HQ and get you copies made - - at no, or at a very reduced, cost. We were allowed to use any vehicle in TWI's fleet that was available, even for personal reasons. To rent a car from transportation all we paid was for the gas for our trip plus, like 10 or 15 cents per mile, whatever transportation had determined was what it cost the ministry per mile to operate the vehicle you used. A friend of mine & I went in together and rented a limo for a double date. It was a nice way to impress the ladies and go to the local drive in in style and comfort. Even the ariplanes and the Way Productions motorcoach was available when not in use for ministry business. People did rent them. You had to convince one of the pilots or coach drivers to drive you, pay the fuel cost and give him an honorarium, like you give a minister for marrying you. The fleet rental went away, it was said that the IRS shut that thing down. Those were good ol' days. Right before TWI went really corporate.

I first heard about TWI when I saw the Parade Magazine article w/ VPW on the cover around 1971; I was around 13 at the time. The picture of a preacher on a white harley with a cross on the windshield was interesting enough for me to read the article, "The Groovy Christians of Rye New York." This is long, sorry. I tried to keep it short but my time in the ministry during the time fram requested kinda has a "gotcha" element to it. I was raised in a Christian home, my mom had told us of how she read the Bible, cover to cover, 13 times - - impresive. I felt I "knew what the Bible said" at least in general, having gone to church most Sunday for as long as I could remember. I was really wanting to know what the Bible said as well as my Mom did so I started reading it on my own. My best friend, a guy named Dana, told me sometime during our Jr. year in high school 74/75 that he was gonna get 85 buck from his dad, even if he had to borrow it to take a Bible class. Long story short, I thought he was crazy and that anybody who would charge so much money to teach him the Bible, the whole thing must be some sort of scam. He invited me to twig; I thought that goofy name was more proof of how wacked out the thing must be and would go w/him. At his prompting I finally decided to go, see what it was, expose it to him as being nuts then we'd both leave. Another long story short, there was a really great group of believers in my town and in the Pittsburgh branch was, in a word, wonderful. The twig leader, Cathie ran a really sweet fellowship. She was respectful, respectable, and really thoughtful when it came to stuff like greeting people with a holy kiss and pretty much everything that a new person would find uncomfortable. I wasn't kissing anybody I didn't know on the lips to meet them, she was cool about it. She showed it to me from the Bible and said, simply, "We only do it because it says so in the Word. I know it seems wierd to most people, but a lot of stuff the Bible says we should do is considered wierd by most people. Hang around with us if you want to, I'll teach you anything I know, & if I don't know enough to answer your questions, we have leadership who knows more than me. I'll ask them and get your answer. If they dont' know I'll keep going up the way tree until I find someone who does, or I'll work the word myself until I find you answer. I was impressed enough by that to come back again. What I saw over the course of the next two or so years was a group of people who sincerely wanted to know the Bible and act like they were God's people. The branch in Pittsburgh had a few twigs, they were all the same, pretty cool people in every generation. Anthony Patch was the first person I met from The Way Corps. He was interim 5th at the time; I was impressed by him. I was a jock, playing football and being a wrestler in western PA. There was nothing anyone told me about WC training that phased me on bit. Nothing they said about the corps came close to three-a-days. Football practice in the hottest days of the summer... football camp was a week of sheer torture. Wrestling practice was worse. I actually like the concept of being as committed so serve God as a soldier was to serve country. At first I attended twig sporadically, then as my questions were answered I'd attend more & more. As I met more people, different kinds of people, my jets cooled because I was impressed by a lot of them and didn't "find anything wierd going on." The 6th Corps they sent to Pgh were decent people, Walter & Diane Holbrook, very down to earth, fun to be around kind and knowledgable, Murphy Price (later to play the Seed of the Serpent in AOS) was cool too, as were the WOWs they sent, too many to mention all the names. Cathie and Adrianne used to sing for the twig and at branch & are meetings. They wrote really beautiful God & Christ centered folk type songs (hey, it was the 70's man! :blink: ) and sang like angels. They sang two part harmonies with an accoustical guitar. Their stuff really touched your heart. I especially remember one song, "One Body" that Cathie wrote when she was upset about how we, in the twig weren't getting along well. That song had such an impact on me that I still remember every word if it today 32 years later. Not gonna write the whole thing but here's some of it: "We're one body, we're one body, God is over us, all the time, We can't lose His mystery, Its what set us free. We're one body and Christ is the head, God is watching us.... Together we stand, or not at all.............." She sang that for us one night at twig after telling us how when she was preparing earlier that day for fellowship, she was thinking about all of us, and asking God to help her to help us to "get it." There wasn't any major bad stuff happening, we just didn't get it that we were each a part of the other. When one part hurt, we were all hurt, when one part rejoices we all should rejoice. She said that she just picked up her guitar, started strumming & singing "were one body" then the rest of the song came to her. She called Adrianne who ran right over and they finished the song shortly before twig time. I can still hear that last line of the song, "Together we stand, or not at all......................" Then she said, softly. "I mean that. If you guys don't want to live together the way God says we should then I'll disband the twig. I'll go join Walter's twig, or somebody's, they'd be glad to welcome me. You guys can just keep doing whatever you want." You could hear a cotton ball fall on a pile of newly fallen snow, it was so quiet. Then she said. "Well. That's the twig lesson for tonite. Let's go get something to eat." Giggled her famous empty headed giggle (she was BLONDE!) and we all go up and scampered out. I took over the Twig when Cathie & Adrianne left to go in residence in the 9th Way Corps. It was between a year & 1/2 to almost two years before I cooled my jets and trusted things enough to take the class. Our little group grew tight, we were all in High school except Jack, Cathie's Dad. There was never a period longer than 24 hours where we were not in contact with at least one other person in the twig. If a whole day went by and we didn't hear from someone, one of us would go out of our way to make sure the person was OK. Jack built a tape library for us and bought every SNS teaching tape there was, even the old reel to reel ones. We would check them out with a card catalogue system just like a library, due dates & all. Those tapes were like a lifeline for us. We listened to every SNS service the Tuesday or Wed following and were constantly up on the haps from HQ with just a day or two lag time. I started out listening to the SNS tapes to find "the wrong stuff." Over an approximately 3 yr period I listened to EVERY SNS tape in existence multiple times over. The same time frame is when I met washingtonweather who posts here also. I also remember how important for the country they said America Awakes was. Our twig went to two or three concerts on the tour as it passed near our area. We went to the grand finale concert on the steps of the Linclon Memorial in Washington DC. It was a cloudy overcast day and it rained, threatening to cancel the concert. Of course we got there early and were right up front. It was a thrill to see and meet members of Joyful Noise during the tour, I met socks then although I doubt he'd have remembered me, he shook a LOT of hands during that tour, I'm sure. I remember the MC taking the mike & praying for the event and mentioning something to the effect of how God would not have brought us this far and abandon us. We hung around taking shelter from the rain anywhere we could, in the memorial & all. After a while, the clouds parted, the bright sun came out it became a sunny day and the show must went on! Another unforgettable experience. Joyful Noice really wailed it that day, "WAKE UP! ..... America. Wake Up, My country! Wake UP !" Wow. You're 18 years old. Driven 14 hours in a caravan of believer to our nations capital to hear a concert dedicated to saving our country by doing our part to bring God's presence to the heart or it. The tour designed to help believers accross the country to wake up and help wake up our nation. IT rains. It's almost dark from the clouds. You've seen rainy days before and this one looks like its gonna be a rainy one. You want to believe that if God could part the Red Sea to save His people from the Egyptian army He could do something about this rain. Some guy prays, not too long after it is a bright sunny day and the show goes on. Why WOULDN'T you think this ministry, in this day and time, is of God? I did. America Awakes pretty much sealed the deal for me. The music was GOOD to GREAT, the performers were talented and professional, not like the typical cheezy Christian, turn the other cheek stuff of the day. These people had the GUTS to get up an sing with Abraham fricken LINCOLN's enormous statue looking over their shoulder and wail WAKE UP AMERICA! This was something I wanted to be a part of. A BIG part of. My teachers, parents, etc. were all telling me I had "talent" and I should use it for something good. I had found out that the artwork and the America Awakes Album cover had been done by "an unbeliever" the ministry had to hire a secular ad agency to do the cover because we didn't have anyone in the ministry who could do that calibre of work. I said, "We do now... ME. I'll do it." This was after I'd seen so much cool stuff, things that appeared, to me at least, and to us involved as signs, miracle and wonders from God. We had our share of problem but we handled them in a Godly way. I even went and visited HQ a couple of times, talked to David Craley over the phone them met him in person and he gave me a tour of the publications facilities at HQ. They were in a converted barn in NK, a crampt space, even somewhat dank. I showed him my portfolio and he told me how they didn't have any space on staff at the time but he was impressed with my work and he'd definately consider me if an opening came up. Professional. Courteous. Forward thinking, David told me of plans to build a huge Outreach Services Center that would be in the same proportions of Noah's Ark (because everything we do here at International has its roots in and gets its significance from God's Word) that would house the majority of the offices and be the support nerve center of the outreach of Gods Word around the world. I was thrilled to my soul and HONORED thay they would actually consider ME, a 19 year old kid from the streets to be a part of all that. I applied for the 9th Corps but wasn't accepted. VPW wrote a handwritten note on my rejection letter, to the effect of, "You need maturity and stability, perhaps a year as a WOW would help you with that." Impressed again. Dr. Wierwille really DOES go over every Corps application, well at least he did mine. The main dude took the time to write a note on my rejection letter; that was impressive to me. I showed it to my Mom she was impressed too, "That doesn't happen often, they usually have admissions people who do things like that." Mom said. I signed up to go WOW, but I wasn't to graduate from art school until a month or two into the WOW year. Franklin Smith, the WOW coordinator that year allowed me to choose where I wanted to go as a WOW (of course that was Pittburgh, where my college was) and I got to pick which of the five wow familes they were sending there I wanted to live with. I knew Franklin prior to this and had worked with him for a year as State Coordinator for Word in Fine Arts Outreach in PA. It was during that time that I got my first glimpse into the "dark side" of TWI. It was immediately at the end of a Hearbeat Festival in PA. There had been a mix-up and some of the decorations didn't get delivered on time for setup. We did the festival without them, they weren't really missed by the believers, anyway and the festival was a big success otherwise. There was a leadership debriefing meeting and when I showed up Franklin and other state leadership about 5 or six people were sitting at a booth. He said to me, "Ok, who f@cked up!" I was SHOCKED. His warm smile led me to think that I wasn't in trouble but I must have even stepped backwarks. He said that I wasn't in trouble we just neede to know what happened so we could do better next time. By this time the shock of hearing a "man of God" who had just "held God's Word so highly" and taught it so well, dynamically, as they say, drop an F-bomb so casually was wearing off enough for me to actually speak. I explained what happened in my usual, overly detailed fashion. He said OK and I walked away when the meeting was done. Another unforgettable moment. "I guess that's what 'not being under the law' means." I remember thinking something to that effect if not those exact words. That was when the duplicitous TWI dichotomy - behavior vs. confession began in my head. It has bothered me ever since. I guess I had many opportunities in those first years before to have sex w/ people because the TWI custom of giving backrubs was really in vogue then. It seemed like people were always giving each other backrubs. It was decades later when I found out that giving a backrub was a specific prelude to sex. I was like REALLY!??? You mean, SHE wanted me? what about that really hot girl during such & such a event. Yup. Probably, its what people do. I was like NAW, man you're yanking my chain. I had heard rumors of wife swapping et al happening at HQ and during large meetings. The meetings were usually at some hotel's meeting room and rumors were about that some of the leadership would be "going into each other's rooms for sex." I, like others have mentioned, was never invited, never knew of anyone who was invited, or involved. I could never envision Mrs VPW, Mrs Owens, Emogene Allen, etc. as sex toys for anyone. I wasn't naieve enough to believe that there was NO pre, or extramarital sex going on. You get a bunch of young hippie types together in a hotel, or college campus or wherever and there's bound to be SOME hanky panky going on. We were poeple, you know, I knew SOME stuff like that was goin on. I didn't put it past most anyone to have "failed" even more than once maybe. But in my 14 years w/ TWI, 12 of which were at the leadership level, state, local, at HQ, Emopria, Indiana, 2 years as a wow. I never had anyone tell me personally that they were involved, either from a positive or negative perpspective with VPW or the leadership like has come to the surface. The closest thing I had to to it was a very good female friend of mine in residence who said that she could go see VPW ni the motorcoach anytime she wanted and that she could get favors from VPW any time. She said she knew stuff. That was as far as that went, as close as I've ever gotten to "it." I'm also not gonna paint such a rosy picture that gives the impression that I was never sexually involved with anyone in TWI through the years. I was. It was more like what would be considered as "normal" in our society, boyfriend-girlfriend, dating type stuff. BUT. I have had, on a mumber of occasions, women throw themselves at me. I've come to understand this as a type of Florence Nightingale syndrome where patients "fall in love" with nurses or health care providers out of a misguided thankful ness in return for the services renderd by the provoder. It happens "all the time" in ministry. Nor am I blind. I would not put it past a LOT of guys to proactively go after girls or women, or vice versa. After all, the "Man would you like to get HER in the Word...." double entnedre, DID sweep through the ministry like wildfire. Bottom line is that during the years there were all kinds of rumors about all kinds of things the vast majority of which were uneducated attacks, we got used to just ignoring most any rumor and moving ahaed with life. I tust you can see how my TWI experience, especially the first few years was quite different from TWI 2 and three. I went to HQ thinking that the way we operated the ministry in Pittsburgh emanated from HQ. I wrote off the inyour face confrontations and humilations like I would when my coaches woud get in my face. My coaches were trying to build me to be a champion, that requires at time that they tear you apart to rebuild you better. That's what I saw when I saw or heard of people being ripped. That's my perpsecitve. Not necessarily a "this is the unversal truth" thing.

A big part of the issue is the "alternate reality" thing. TWI uses a concept where words become "real" and replace the actual reality. Example: My statement, as written was: "... My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not." That was reality, what I REALLY said. Oldiesman created an alternate reality with his words: "You mention this vicious rumor, and now you say you don't know whether you believe it or not? ......................................... I never said I don't know if I believed it or not, OLDIESMAN said I did. Un-real. As in NOT reality. Oldie is trying to create an ALTERNATE reality where: 1. My eyewitness account of allegations were "publically" verified by the parties of the first part. is reduced to a "rumor." 2. I am nuts. Well not ME, personally, only my view of HIS beloved. 3. I am an idiot, one who is too stupid to know that I allowed myself "to be subject to this" by repeating this "rumor." Now, I'M gonna jump spiritual on you. I am not nuts, I was not decieved into thinking I heard something that wasn't said. There is a BIG difference between repeating a rumor and testifying to facts. Oldiesman obviously doesn't know said difference. I gave my testimony about what I heard. Oldie doesn't like what I heard, HE is trying his level best to discredit ME personally so that none of you believe what he wishes were not true. Everything Oldie has said of me and this in rebuttal of MY eyewitness testimony is ACTUALLY true of himself. He knows that it is true and refuses to believe the truth about himself. In reality it is HE who is: 1. Decieved 2. Confused 3. Subjecting himself to "all of this" 4. Lying (primarily to himself) Thing is, he know all ot this, and more, but refuses to acknowledge the truth about himself. He chooses to live in the alternate reality and is using it in attempt to have us join him there. He will never stop discrediting me until I agree with him. In fact this behavior is the personification of cult thinking, the often mentioned "group mind." All this just because he's mad that I "spit" on his trustees. BTW. Oldie. You DO realize that I'm not really talking to you. Right? I mean, even when I address you, I'm not really talking to you. Its an ears to hear thing. :huh:

BTW Belle, Thanks for the kind words dear. B)

Agreed.. That's why I weigh in on conversations like this one. I worked for a long time on getting back to my historical reality. I had thought that my TWI experience had enhanced the historical me, but found that it did, in fact change me. I can best describe it as having been surrounded by a besieging army and the army having been successful in breaking through some of the "weaker areas in my wall." They lobbed salvos over some of the stronger areas. They just hadn't completely conquered my city - - YET. In time we would have all been conquered because it was the nature of the TWI beast. The only difference, categorically, between me, you satori and others who are now out and those who are now in, malcontently in and even faithfully in is that the current TWI faithful opened the gates to their city and welcomed the invaders as friends. Once the invaders know they have conquered you they stop fighting you. They assimilate you. You become part of them. I was 15 when I got involved w/ TWI and an excellent student w/ a bright future where I could have written my own ticket "anywhere in life." My Mom made me PROMISE to her verbally that the instant I found that TWI was "wrong." I'd walk. I thought I was keeping more of an emotional distance than I actually did. I got my confirmation they were wrong the day Howard Allen coldly fired me, with NO notice, gave NO reason, didn't give my wive ANY severence, only gave me the pay I had earned through the rest of the pay period (which wasn't over) and then gave me one pay period's worth of "severence." At the time, I was married with three children, Jasmine, the youngest was two years old. I had a mortgage, a family, two car payments, not to mention the expense of feeding the kids. HA's parting comment to me was, "Why don't you go to work for The Liar (The St. Marys Evening Leader newspaper) they could use a guy with your talents." THAT was my "event." Chris, via his POP, provided an event that led to a series of events for a lot of the rest of us. I knew Chris, was on first name speaking terms with him. But he was, as they say, aloof. Very few people knew him well. Everybody loved Barbie, she was certainly his better half. I think I see a theme running through this thread.... We were ALL caught in the wave of TWI. It swept us all away to some extent. It effected everybody. I never had any problem with Chris. Every one onf my encounters with him was pleasant. I thought he was a good choice for VP's valet. A handsome, talented, professional guy. I respected him - a lot. He was swept away too just like all of us. I thought his intent behind POP was honorable. I thought it was necessary to drop a bomb on TWI. After that I redoubled my efforts to set things right. After being burned like we were w/ Athletes of the Spirit, then when they didn't fill a the Dept. coordinator job, it seemed just to keep me out of it, I was on my way out anyway. That battle we're speaking of pulled me back in. I actually think that this battle against reality thing could stand up as its own dicusion topic.

Why is it you can't seem to see that what I AM doing, what I DID do is tell of something I head THEM say. Just to be PERFECTLY clear. My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not. Please stop putting words into my mouth. It is OBVIOUS Oldiesman that you really don't wish to believe the beloved BOT WOULD do such a heinous thing. The point I'm getting across here is that they would stop at NOTHING to get and kepp what they had - - INCLUDING murder, IF they felt they could get away with it. I believe THAT 100%. They've done "worse." And I KNOW that. I'm not arguing w/ you on this murder issue. Pls stop trying to make that comment the focus of what I was talking about. It wasn't.

I used to think that I was one of the more heroic ones who fought tooth & nail for WHAT was right rather than WHO.... I also found some of my old letters, even read some of my old journal entries. They were a HUGE shock to me in terms of how far "under" TWI I actually was when at the time I thought I had a balanced perspective. Actually the truth probably was that I wavered back & forth with an internal battle between reality and wayworld. Amen Satori, that stuff can bring you to your knees in embarrassment. I often wonder if the more heroic thing was to ease out slowly. Maybe it was the smarter thing than to stay in "fighting for the ship." It was a losing battle. Even more important to me than the murder remarks that day at Corps week was the statement Chris made about them making it "next to impossible" to turn the ministry back to God. Maybe that account for why people didn't focus much on the vague "attempt to murder" thing. That mattered less, they guy didn't die, they were saying they were sorry - - AGAIN... Now what was that about "impossible?"... is where my focus was. I was like "What choo talkin' 'bout Willis..."

I think its good to talk about this stuff as a sort of personal catharsis. Calling TWI a web is certainly an accurate way to put it. So many people were so confused by the thing as a whole... I think it is healthy to come to grip with is and get at least some sense of what the haps actually were. I think that individually we all come to a point where enough of the lingering questions in our minds about it are answered that we're actually free of it. The duplicitous nature of TWI causes stuff to just linger in one's brain. I don't think that its mentally healthy to "just let sleeping dogs (of TWI) lie. I've seen it come out in myself and others... at the worst times, it seems - a dog or two wakes up. Like once during a job interview I was on a much used wayworld expression just "jumped out of my mouth!" I didn't get the job. Like, no criticism at all intended or in any way implied, Digi but why use the phrase, "in this day and time" when, "What difference does it make today" would certainly get the same point across??? Perhaps in your world Digi, the usage of TWI terms, etc. make absolutely no difference. To some, however, the terminology triggers "group mind" thinking and behaviors in their lives. I've seen it online many times since way back in the TranceChat days. Seen it here in the cafe too, other places as well - - again, in my own life. I've found it quite necessary to proactively rid myself of as much TWI stuff as possible to really function as a complete member of society. I spent basically ALL of my adolescence and the first decade or so of my professional and young adult life fighting against the TWI's a cult rap. I used to think that the fact that my utilization of the Biblical concept to "prove all things and hold fast to the good...." along with the undeniable facts that I gleaned a LOT of good from my TWI experience in general. I learned a LOT of great stuff from my personal relationship w/VP. Grew exponentially as a professional during my first few years there to where I've been able to outperform military officers, Duke MBA's, and fly high in fortune 100 companies.... I used to think that the good we did in TWI, the good I got from it, etc, gave credence to the experience as a whole and cast dispersion on the "cult rap." These discussions, sharings and even the arguments have helped me to change that impression. I can tell you good things about TWI, some of it some little known (I think not many heard of it) TWI accomplishments, opinions of some of VPW's books that would make TWI look like the "God's Chosen Ministry" they say they are. At the same time, I feel that stuff would REALLY hack of those who know by experience just how dark and bad TWI has ALWAYS been. I know some of THAT stuff too. TWI is and pretty much always was a cult. God has worked many miracles and accomplished his will working with many people in history who were a LOT worse than Victor Paul Wierwille. I do believe, however, that God gave VP many things, many chances to BECOME "His MOG in this day and time." I think VP actually saw glimpses of and hit some Godly peaks in his life & ministry. Unfortunately, in terms of the cult question, I now believe it is the VALLEYS that define his ministry moreso than the peaks. Our American culture defines the tenure of our Presidents in terms of their legacy as it relates to their presidency. VP's legacy shouts so loudly we cannot hear the whisperings of his lofty accomplishments. Chris Geer, Howard Allen, Don Wierwille and Craig Martindale moreso than any others of the major leadership body of TWI are a direct part of VPW's legacy. Walter Cummins grew up under Uncle Harry's wing, moreso than VP's. Bo Reahard, Johnny Townsend, Duke, Ralph. Vince & the other 1st thru 4th Corps guys had more than VP for a central mentoring influence. The 5th Corps was the first "biggger" Corps group and the 6th Corps was so big they were "out of control" most of the time. They were a wild and roudy bunch. The 7th was the consensus favorite among HQ staffers, especially those oldtimers who'd been around "forever" in the ministry. The "Y" in the road for TWI was the day Uncle Harry died. Uncle Harry was the only person on the planet who could really influence VP in terms of changing his mind and actually stopping him from his "wild hair up the butt" antics. Ermal Owens had died at the end of the "70's and Harry was, as VP put it, his conscience. There is a Sunday Night Service tape out there somewhere where VP talks about his brother's death, what Harry meant to him and the ministry and how he wondered how he could co on in the ministry without Harry. Maybe all of what I'm remembering isn't on the tape. Its a little difficult after about 30 years to pick out when VP said things he said many times. I'm digressing. With Ermal Owens gone Donnie took over the administrative reigns of the ministry. Donnie had an axe to grind w/ his Dad for making his Mother sell everything in their home for the famous India trip that Donnie felt wasn't worth what they gave to do it. Donnie had this thing of running the ministry HIS way, as opposed to "Dad's." No Harry, no Ermal, Donnie running his own agenda. I'm not sure how much philandering VP did when Howard Allen was the valet & driver. They spent a lot of time then "believing" to get that old mobile home back to HQ once they left. It broke down a lot. It was during the motorcoach days, after fall/winter of 1976 when it was delivered. CG took over as valet around 78/79. Chris Geer, Howard Allen, Don Wierwille and Craig Martindale, VPW's direct legacy are the major players when it comes to "the fall" of TWI. Let's not forget Rosalie, but she came along later.

Oldies, my friend. You mentioned considering the source. Of course I considered the source, dude. Also. I didn't say I believed it. I thought I was telling an account of what I saw and heard others say. I'm not backpedaling now either. I know what I heard. I also wanted more confirmation than just those guys saying it, but that didn't come that day during that meeting. In terms of considering the source....Just who is Karl Kahler? Not to put him down or speak negatively of the guy, I'm speaking in terms of who is he to become an authority? I mean like, from where I'm sitting he's a guy who wrote some stuff about his experiences. I find your post of the exerpt from Karl's book a little verbose; a presumptuous bit of opinionating. Karl is more than entitled to his opinion. I respect him for taking the time and writing his book. The operative word here, from my POV is chronology. Seeing as Chris was the "patron saint of aloofness" how did Karl, a lowly 14th Corps ever get close enough to the guy, who lived across the ocean, AT THAT TIME, for Chris to "blame" HIM for anything? Consider THAT source. Read what you posted. THINK about it. Run the numbers. Consider the motives of the guy who wrote the exposee. From what I've read of "The Cult That Snapped," I'd say , that from the POV of folks who were not "in the know" it was a good deal of information. Concerning TWI, even among folks who were involved w/it... you were either "in" or NOT in. You could be sitting at lunch right next to someone who was "in the know" and not even know it. We've all talked before about "the inner circle(s)" of TWI. Karl Kahler, bless him, wasn't in. By the time the 14th Corps rolled around, the doors to being IN were closed and padlocked. I know enough about what was going on when I was there, enough about the roots of how thing were, enough about how TWI functioned in general, in principle, by official procedures, the ways to cut through the infamous red tape.... PLUS, I know at least 98% of ALL of the major-est TWI players to know that the most Karl's book can be is the POV of someone looking from outside in. I'm not discrediting Karl's book, just not lifiting it to iconic status. Adding a little perspective. I also know how "in I WASN'T." Using the fact that Karl didn't write about the "murder" plot thing to cast dispersion on anyone who heard what was said - especially with a speculation that Karl was at the meeting at Corps week when it said; frankly Oldiesman, is rediculous. My how "TWI" of you Oldie. It is just UNREAL to testify: in ANY court of law in the world that because YOU think that someone ELSE may be been in the same place the witness was and they just haven't mentioned in their BOOK a few statements the witness says he heard whe HE WAS THERE.... "I doubt what the witness is saying." That is SOOOOOO much like the TWI way, dude. Just say: A: some words about someone or something that may make sense in and of themselves B: to people whom you know don't know the facts concerning the words you speak OR the someone or something the OTHER person was speaking of... you get C: a cult following from the subset of people who think what YOU said MAY make sense. That is the classic "How to build a cult formula." A+B=C(ult)

Agreed Satori. I've always had a peeve about the way Christians use a lots of words that don't actually say anything. At least anything tangible. I'd agree that people would do that stuff to manipluate others or cover their own weaknesses and lack of whatever. The whole Chris Geer thing was an enigma to me, personally speaking. I felt that if he was gonna bust the trustees out for their indescretions he should do it "ghetto style." Paul in Corinthians didn't pull any punches, he said, "You guys are having sex with your mothers! You know who you are.... Stop it!" I really didn't like how most everthing CG said publickly led to more questions than he gave answers. The beginnings of the end is how I saw all that stuff. It was more like HOPING things were better, not actually thinking that things were better. These conversations now, decades removed from the events, help me to see how much we were lacking in terms of reality in Wayworld then. I felt the whole concept of "we don't want to shut HQ down for a week while we do these leadership meetings" was BOGUS. I was like. Hey, its not like we're contributing to the Gross National Product or something. If we ceased to exist as a company the world would not miss a beat. That to me made Chris' actions suspect. I felt we needed the rank & file OUTRAGE that would follow people knowing that VPW USED THE CUSTOM MOTORCOACH YOUR ABS BOUGHT AND F@#%ED AND LCM IS NOW FU@&ING EVERY WOMAN HE CAN GET INTO HIS.MOTORCOACH! EARL BURTON LOST OVER A MILLION DOLLARS OF YOUR ABS TRYING TO "GROW IT" IN THE STOCK MARKET! SEE THESE GUYS OVER HERE? THEY SAVED THAT FELLOW RIGHT THERE FROM THESE OTHERS WHO WERE GOING TO TRY AND KILL HIM. (IF that indeed did occur.) And so on and so on. Whatever there was to know, we should have been made privvy to ALL of it. Its not about itching ears, its about people having a right to know specifics about the conduct of those they've entrusted their hard earned money to.. The whole thing was suspect to me. I finally wized up some when they kicked me off staff with 4 weeks severence pay and expected me to work two of the weeks on their biggest money making event of the year. When they fired me, I walked and never looked back.

What MY pea brain finds astounding is how regularly people in the cafe resort to insulting the source of information they: 1. Don't like. 2. Don't agree with. 3. Didn't origninate the sharing of said info themselves... as in "If I didn't know it, or have heard it from within MY network of knowledgable and reliable sources. I must discredit the speaker of such obvious (to ME, primarily) utter nonsense." ........................................................ I was simply relating an account of things I heard said with mine own ears and saw with my own eyes as it relates to the topic of "What is Chris Geer Doing?" Very legit question. I was one of (and darn proud of it) the "malcontents" on staff at HQ mentioned in Chris' POP paper. In general, not directed to anyone specific, If you think that was NOT the primary question of the moment when he presented POP, you severly underestimate all of us who worked on staff and were in anyway involved in the events subsequent to POP as they relate to CG. IMO, the FIRST thing most folk thought immediately was, for the sake of communication, that CG was using POP as some sort of coup. As my3cents spoke of, Chris would have had the immediate and overwhelming support of a vast majority of Clergy, TWI staff and Way Corps to step in as President. As I remember it people kinds thought that was what was happening. It seemed "only natural" that since CG had said, and the trustees confirmed, that VP had entrusted Chris with his "Last Will and Testament for TWI" ... and ... that he had confronted the BOT, revealing to us, the official leadership body of the ministry that the present BOT had turned away from God and led the entire ministry away from God... the natural thing would be for him to take the reins and, at least become some sort of "interim president." CG flatly declined to do so. Instead he specifically mentioned that he was NOT president and that LCM was and that they (the BOT) should turn their private lives back to God individually and collectively as a leadership body and that we, the Way Corps should do the same. He did this in a "the turned away from God shoe fits all of you/us to varying degrees" you should go to God and repent to the extent that you need to. I felt that in theory, it would work, we could all do our part to right the ship, so to speak. I also think that some folk were hacked off that Chris didn't "take over and lead us." There WAS a power vaccuum. It was like CG flew in, dropped a bomb and left. The trustees were left standing alone in the center of this huge crater. (Do I have to say, figuratively speaking?) The hole was somewhat filled when they officially installed Johhny T. and Ricardo C. as Trustees. The original short list of "guys who would be president" when VP retired were the primary ones who would have resisted CG "just taking over." There were rumors from the day after the announcement that Craig was the choice that "some people think that ______________ should have been chosen. " This was... how many years, months before VP died....??? People were of the opinion that different guys were better suited in different categories to be Pres than Craig. They were right. For example: Walter Cummins was around longer than Craig, he was a much better teacher (although not as dynamic a speaker). A good case could be made for at least five guys, other than Craig. Although VP had said than "any PFAL grad believer could be president..." "everybody knew that there were really only a handful of actual potential candidates. Some folks felt like, "Hey since Craig messed up, let whomever was the runner up get a shot at turning the thing back." CG squelched that noise... Johhny and Ricardo were, IMO, good choices because, other things notwithstanding; of all the guys who could have done the job they were ones whom the fewest number of very influential people would have a problem with. Some of the guys who could have been pres said they didn't want the job. The rumors abounded in every direction, about every thing related to it. It got to the point where rumormongering became a full time job at HQ. There was a lot of anarchy around the ministry in dem days leading up to POP. Even moreso after it "POP-ped." It was next to impossible to get WC to agree on anything. Tons of arguing around HQ around doing things "the current (spiritually professional way" or VPW's old ways. Donnie W. was a major proponent of the "Dad has his reasons for doing things the way he did, we've grown beyond that now." In some ways he was right. The HQ staff had grown from nearly 500 when I first moved to HQ in 79 to over 800 when I came back after the Corps in 83. At first it seemed that POP had united TWI in a way that we hadn't been since the last big event of VPW's tenure. Rock of Ages had become a methodical, "uneventful" regular thing, ... Start getting the stuff out of the warehouse at such & such a time, run the ads, print the materials, design the decorations, do the pre setup setup, the leaders start coming in at these times, stay in these places, blah, blah, blah. The leaders meetings, turning the ministry back to God, became something to rally around. "Being spiritual" gave us common ground to shape people's behavior. The newer, less experienced at HQ staffers came into HQ believing that since GOD, Himself had called them there, all of their ideas about how to do things came directly from HIM! Everyone "had a psalm, a doctrine" a way to do things that was right in his own eyes. We spent a LOT of time fixing things that some interim corps hotshot or newby staffer just KNEW that they "got the revelation" to "do it that way." They broke a good bit of equipment, wasted a lot of materials, time and man hours redoing it the right way. "How spiritual is that?' "Did you even THINK of praying, asking God how you should proceed BEFORE you decided that doing it the OPPOSITE way the proceedure recommends?" That was a sort of bottom line rallying point. Things got so bad that people who were "lifers" (probably gonna staff on staff "forever") started leaving. The BS became too much for many folks, myself included. I was considering leaving, myself. Many folk who had been around and knew VP's good side and his kind, loving and grass root, "just make it work," get it done on time, efficient ways felt that if we left, who would be there to teach the "heart of HQ" to the newbys. The newbys started treating us like we were dinosaurs, telling us that "heart alone just doesn't get it." They were like, step aside and let me show you how its done. The whole "let's get back to God, lets be spiritual" thing sorta took the place of VPW's old "chapter & verse" thing from the old days. We used to keep crazy people in line with, "Where does it say THAT in the Word? Can you give me chapter & verse?" We actually thought things were getting better. We sorta expected Chris to give some great report or maybe anoounce that the ministry had, in fact returned to God and that He had restored His hand of blessing on it. Instead, the gist of his sharing that day at Corps week was; Not only are things NOT better they are worse than when we started the process. The BOT have proven that they will stop at nothing, go to any length to maintain their positions, even attempting to murder those who stand in their way. Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn about being a singular source of enlightenment. I'm relating things as I remember them. I can't speak for anyone who didn't speak of anything they know. Actually, I thought the whole "attempted murder" thing was a bit over the top, myself. Things get VERY real when dead bodies turn up. Much more real than most of Wayworld. Nevertheless, I heard what I heard, saw what I saw, believe what I believe. Feel FREE, to do the same.

Sure Oldie, I made it all up. Chris never said anything to the effect of anyone trying to murder anyone else. It was all just part of my own overly indulged ego and my attempt at a power play to get people at the Cafe to worship ME as the source of all that is true or real. Thank you for snapping me out of my drug enduced fog. There now, feel better?

Chris was considered to be one of the top guys, arguably THE top guy, in what was the consensus "best" group of WC ever at the time. He earned the position as VPW valet and driver. He succeeded Howard Allen (VP's best friend) in that position. It was inevitable that CG and VP would become close. He spent more time w/VPW than anyone, even Mrs. Chris is the type of guy that people generally either like him or hate him. Water cooler talk about CG was that some didn't like his "superior attitude." In my experience w/ him I found him to be a little formal for most people's taste. Where HA was like VP's buddy who drove him around CG was like "Alfred", Batman's butler. My east coast attitude wasn't fazed by his being a little curt at times. He didn't have a problem telling folks no, he'd just look you in the the eye and say things that maybe you didn't want to hear. Plus he didn't seem to care or be fazed at all if you didn't like him. That itself didn't do much to endear people to him. Basically everone respected him though. The Trustees approved of CG's presentation of POP. LCM even introduced him as their guest and acknowledged that they were aware of the content of the document. He said they agreed unanimously that the content contained therein was true and that the accounts mentioned were factual representations of the events. They went into some detail to confirm that VP and Chris were, in fact together during the times mentioned. All of us who were on staff at HQ at the time were aware that VP was away but we didn't know where he was, which was unusual we "always" knew VP's inerary and in the old days we'd actually get off work to line the driveway to welcome him home. They didn't buy into POP because of being manipulated in CG's coup attempt. They said, "We are signing our names to this document to confirm it as being true and our signatures represent our commitment as a united Board of trustees to turn the ministry back toward God." The "famous leaders meetings" were where they exposed and discussed in detail the events and attitudes referred to in POP. It wasn't about nebulous worldly behavior. It was supposedly names, dates, activities, etc. all undeniable evidence that the trustees were up to no good. I say supposedly only because I didn't attend the leaders meetings. Dept. Coordinators and trustee cabinet members did. They were told to take notes and relate what was said to us staff because we didn't want to shut HQ down so everyone coud attend. My dept Coordinator admittedly wimped out and refused to tell us all of the details. He said it was too personally shocking for him to repeat and that it should suffice for us that what Chris said was true and that the trustees had done "some really bad stuff." This P,O'ed me, of course. I wanted to know everything. I felt that if they had done some criminal stuff they should fry for it. He said "the word says we shouldn't take believers to court. I said B.S! We argued, I lost. During the POP fallout, "everybody who was anybody" in the ministry went to Gartmore and they ALL came back singing the praises of CG and how God lived there like He once did at HQ. They shared at night owls, Sunday AM fellowships, hoot owls etc, ad nausium of how they had forgotten what living in the presence of God felt like and how it had eroded from HQ and how HQ had become "cold and corporate." LCM said stuff like that too. I got sick of hearing of how bad I was and how I had turned away from God with their blanket reasoning. I was like "speak for yourself," you jerk. Don't accuse ME of the crap you've somehow been blind to in your own life and had to fly accross the darn ocean to "see." Point being that CG had an endorsement that went WAY beyond LCM. Literally hundreds of top leadership heard the crap, confirmed the BS, and endorsed CG. It was well after literally hundreds of HQ staff were fired and about 75% of active WC had voluntarily left TWI when we refused to swear allegiance to LCM and the BOT, as opposed to GOD and Jesus Christ... basically EVERYONE who would stand up and call LCM a liar to his face was GONE from the ministry when LCM declared Chris to be possessed with general level devil spirits and a manipulator of a regiment of spirits who decieved him, them and everyone who agreed that POP was true. I'm not defending Chris, but LCM HAD to villify him in the worst of ways to salvage his Presidency. There were people left on staff who had sworn his allegience, WC on the field and rank & file believers who knew of his endorsement of Cg and confirmation of Chris' allegations of trustee wrongdoings including the ATTEMPTED MURDER of Ricardo Caballero. I was up front at Corps week with my camera, as usual, when CG came in, interrupted the goings on and busted them with... "You not only have NOT turned back to God, You haven't even attempted to... AND you've covered up your activities. You have sabotauged (sp?) the efforts of the new trustees to set things straight and even made things WORSE than they were. There has even been an attempted murder that General Caballero had to dispatch a military unit to safe the life of the target!..." The BOT admitted to THAT too, right there, main stage during Corps week in front of about 8,000 WC. (About 7,950 of whom are now M&A.) I don't know for a fact that CG wasn't trying to sieze "the throne" of TWI. I do know he already had the "throne" in Europe. He was the leader of the second "trunk" in what was generally considered to be the place where God had turned his favor to. The trunk of Europe was supposedly unaffected bu the BOT's transgressions, as was the work in Africa and South America which was continuing to grow at rates like the US had grown. They were seeing book of Acts types of signs miracles amd wonders all over TWI ministries in Zaire and where Ricardo lived in South America. While the US growth had leveled off they were still on a steady upwards path. I don't know what CG's doing these days. I know that Ricardo C. and Johnny T. both resigned from the BOT after throwing their hands up. If CG was only a power mad A-hole, there still were events that occurred, people that were hurt that he gave factual accounts of. I, for one am glad he tore the lid off the sucka. Sorry bout the length.

I always thought TJ seemed conflicted. I think he, like so many other guys ran their "commands" as if they were trying to prove they would have been a better choice for Pres. than LCM. Maybe they were right. What was interesting to me about my time at Gunnison was that an "unbeliever" treated me much better than TJ did. I was there the 2nd block of our 11th Corps Graduating year, a few weeks after being injured in the LEAD accident. I had to go through a little bit of "whatever" to get TJ's approval to go to get "whatever treatment I needed." but the Chiropractor told me this: "I have a son about your age whos away at college too. I will take care of you the way I would want someone to care for him, if something happened to him like this." That was open, honest and warm with real tenderness and a genuine concern. That man made a similar commitment in his hypocratic oath as Tom made when he was ordained. Let' s just say for brevity's sake, there was a stark contrast between the two. I don't remember Tom even asking me what happened. I felt like he thought I MAY have been "dogging it" but tolerated me because of the huge liability factor concerning my injuries. When I went to the chiropractor, I felt warm and cared for. SHouldn't that have been the other way around, if the contrast existed at all?