HCW

I DO agree, in general that we should keep away from TWI rhetoric. Basically I do keep far away from it. I believe the rhetoric is a really slippery slope and that they use that to get, check and confirm allegiance. My point, simply put is there are subtleties involved in the way they control people. I short I say things they way I would say them, not how TWI says I should say them. I just believe that if we work to hard to keep away from them we are actually working to keep attached to them. Few people here at the cafe live in closer proximity to TWI than I do. My oldest graduated from NK HS in '05 and still has ties to the community - as I do. We just basically ignore TWI and go on about our business. That my general position, ignore them - deal w/ it as it comes up in your going about your business. I in now way see their rhetoric as eternal - that to me is giving them too much credit, much more than they deserve and a lot of what they actually want folks to think of them.

I no longer care what TWI followers were, are, or ever will be programmed to do. TWI rhetoric is what it is, what it is. I'm speaking of refraining from mental gymnastics, personally. Whereas I DO wholeheartedly believe that is is VERY necessary to drain every drop of TWI influence from our lives. I also believe that there is a point at which enough is enough in that regard as well. From this POV. IF I would choose to express myself in a certain manner, as I did in using the first mathematical theorem I learned in 8th grade Geometry long before I ever knew TWI existed. If that is a part of the REAL me and I choose to STOP expressing myself in that manner because TWI chose to make that a part of their rehetoric... I believe, personally speaking that... ...THEY, TWI are STILL in control of me. There is a requisite amount of mental gynastics one MUST painstakingly go through to free himself from the influence that is TWI. It involves letting go of the influence in every way shape or form. There is a part of EVERY one of us that "fit" with TWI, we must find those "ties that bind" or bound us to them and SEVER each and EVERY one of them. I've been there - - done that. I've reache the point where I can say "whatever" and there is not longer any any "draw" connection or even knee-jerk repulsion I feel regarding TWI beyone any other thing I may personally be repulsed by. That speaks to me of the fact that I'm free. I'm truly "OUT." Lot of folk aren't as "out" as they think they are. Nothing personal. I'm NOT speaking of anyone on this thread. Just making comments as it relates to the things being said, not the people saying them.

Huh?God doesn't grant ANYBODY repentance. People CHOOSE to repent on their own, - - period. Point of universally accepted logic that any and ALL schools of thought on the planet ahdere to.... If the premise of your argument is BS, the entire argement cannot stand. That is precisely the mental gymnastics I'm speaking of. You must believe many things that just are not true to come to the conclusion that Jesus eternally existed w/God as a part of the triune Godhead. Further perusal of John (chapter 17 to be exact) finds Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God. Mathematical truth states that if: (A) Jesus = God © and (B) We = Jesus (A) then (B) We = © GOD also. Therefore... If Jesus is God then so are WE. Read the whole chapter... "...Why don't they EVER read the next verse!???!" I don't either. In fact I go to a big, huge church where they believe and teach trinitarian concepts. I think the argument over the subject is worse in God's eyes that who's wrong about it.

... who study the Bible ON THEIR OWN... ... without the preconcieved notions that ALL religions bring to the table. The Bible started taking on a new life for me when I started reading it the SAME way I'd read a newspaper or a textbook in school or a book from a library. When I started seeing the people in it as PEOPLE like my friends, family & neighbors and threw away insane notions like I shouldn't write on the pages of my Bible (because it is HOLY and belongs to GOD) or I should ONLY wear the BEST, newest hottest looking clothes I have when I go to HIS house (which, BTW is where you HAVE to go to talk to Him or hear from Him)... it was then that it started opening up to me like IT says it would. Imagine that. Let's see... God, who has always existed, has ALWAYS been this triune being, FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT, SPLIT a whole third of himself of and BECAME HUMAN just so he could save us humans who messed up because we were tricked by His #2 in command in heaven. While he was human he WASN'T God, but he still was - even though he wasn't - at least then. He was only all human - - then. Then he did the job, not as God, cause it wouldn't be fair of him to be God while he was being tempted - cause you can't tempt God. So cause God is soooo much smarter than everybody else He figured out how he could be & not be God at the same time. Which of course he wasn't God when they beat the living dog sh!# out of him. Cause if he WAS God THEN it wouldn't have hurt (or would it?). Then after the job was done, He went BACK to being all God but when you look at him you see Jesus standing at God's right hand side. So. MAYBE sine no man has seen God, God had to jump back into his jesus suit so Steven could see him, OR maybe, Steven didn't actually SEE what he said he saw. I mean he didn't actually SAY he saw God, he said he saw Jesus standing.... Huh? Ive got a question... can anybody tell me where Jesus was during the war in heaven when Lucifer & co. tried the take over? I don't think I've ever seen ANYTHING in the bible that mentions anything about that. But hey... I know I don't know like everything. I do know that from my study of the Bible, The whole trinitarian thing sounds more to me like my 10yr old son's explanation of the sitch when he knows he's wrong than any kind of truth. Sounds like the shell game to me.

IS Jesus Christ God? Nope. At least that's my opinion on the matter. My opinion is based on one simple fact. I believe the Bible. The Bible speaks very clearly on the topic in Acts where it gives account of the ONE human eye witness to the throne room, Steven. It says very clearly that he saw heaven opened and Jesus sitting at God's right hand side. If Jesus were God, wouldn't he have seen the trinitarian creature, God, son & holy spirit? Trust me. I've done thousands of hours of reading on the subject from every angle. That's my personal conclusion. Which, simply put is this: God, (there is ONLY ONE) the Father of all. Jesus, the only begotten son of the Father. The GIFT of Holy Spirit (which is God who is the ONLY holy one, God is SPIRIT, which has no flesh & bones, as we [Mankind] do.) which is LIFE, which is eternal. We, mankind who are born DEAD (because we have no spirit life from God living in us) MUST be born AGAIN (because Adam [=mankind] who was born alive w/eternal life from God - holy spirit, actually DID die as God said he would in the garden) to get the life Adam lost for mankind = ALL of us. When we get born again we get eternal life - AGAIN from God. i.e. God, in Christ, in YOU, the hope of Glory. The Glory begins coming into fruition on the day the trumpet of God sounds and Jesus returns to Earth. Those who have eternal life living in their fleshly bodies which have expired will rise and we who are still alive (in our flesh) will put off our fleshly bodies, get new ones (like Jesus modeled for us after his ressurection), go to heaven and forever be with God in the same spiritual manner that Jesus now is. Through all of that I just can't see Jesus, the person, as being God, the son. I can't see where he would have been or what he would have been doing, or what Lucifer would have been doing in heaven prior to the whole Earth-human being debacle that it has become. Then there's the whole propitiation thing. God having to BECOME human in order to redeem us, in my view slices a little bit of PERFECTION off of Him. However God's begetting (for lack of a better word) ANOTHER perfect human son in the manner that the Bible goes to such painstaking detail to describe just fits - with no holes or mental gymnastics for us to go through to FORCE ourselves to believe. It is also PERFECTLY legal, and would stand up in any human court that if one guy (human who is NOT God) representing all of mankind got all of us in "trouble" - - that the precisely PERFECT reciprocal of that would be that one guy (human who is NOT God) representing all of mankind could get all of us OUT of the same trouble. Seeing as Adam was God's son, directly, the savior would HAVE to be God's son, directly. God didn't sin, the man from God (Adam=Mankind) did. Adam wasn't a guy NAMED Adam, he WAS Adam. MANKIND called his wife's name Eve. There's no argumant to that fact of bot Adam and Jesus being son's of God, directly. It is not widely or profusely taught, however, that Jesus is the SECOND Adam. In my view because it would do damage to the trinitarian position. I do, however, believe there is at least something, some truths in the stuff that leads folk to believe he's God. The whole divinity thing... they make some really strong arguments around his "being there" before the foundations of the Earth thing. I have a problem with that, as the old testament speaks of Lucifer being the Bright and Morning Star in heaven before his fall. Then The Bible speaks of Jesus, the son of God ascending to heaven and taking Lucifer's place as #2 in heaven as the Bright & Morning Star. This is rarely taught in churches, or discussed in not many books on the subject. Personally, however, my further conclusion, for my life is that it doesn't make much difference to me. Jesus is who & what he is, God is who & what he is. From a practical, every day POV in life just doesn't make a whole lot of difference either way. I'm just thrilled when the name above all names, Jesus Christ is mentioned and therefore he's remembered and in the psyche of people whether they believe him - believe IN him or not. Ultimately the truth cannot be denied. Our belief in truth of lack thereof can in no way change it. I guess that when we stand before God at the appropriate place & time, then we'll see for sure.

Just found this thread tonite. Skipped over a lot of stuff, so forgive me if I'm redundant. I think the above quote is perhaps the biggest part of the problem. Briefly put I'm thinking the one who doesn't want to go is smart enough to see "what was wrong" w/TWI and see's the "getting all prettied up" as the same category of "what's wrong" w/ church. A more progressive church that doesn't teach against... what you believe might be more accceptable to the one that doesn't want to go.

Nope. In fact, my psychologist friend says I shouldn't even WANT to be "normal." They say that normal is crazy. - I do 100% of the laundry, cooking, and cleaning at my home; not to mention the decorating. - I believe in spanking especially before age 2. (If you don't get 'em corralled in BY age two, you may have lost them for LIFE by then.) - I actually spend hours at a time talking with my children. - No comment on the erect penis thing - although I will point out my cultural hertiage.

Malace and forethought. I don't think so. I'm thinking that power corrupts. My own experience in ministry, not limited to TWI, shows me just how easy it is to be overcome by the power that leadership gives. It is very intoxicating, to say the least. There was just so much to TWI that it seems that a lot of contributors to these forums either never knew of, experienced, or whatever that were really unnecessary components of a culture designed by malace of forethought to simply control & manipulate people. For example, "Let's use my custom corporate jet to fly folk in (for free) to HQ, put them up for the weekend (for free) show them all the best of the ministry life here, send staffers out to their area to share a piece of HQ w/ them there, etc.... Just so I can get a piece of trim from somebody's hot wife." ??? I don't think so. Many have done more evil w/ far less stuff. I believe that VPW gave in to his weaknesses, as the scriptures say, was "...drawn away by his own lusts...." The same type of lusts eveyone has. He just didn't keep his under wraps as he should & could have done. We all, perhaps, wish he was the man he knew to be. (Or did he plagurize that as well?)

I looked at the whole thing w/ an, "OK, prove it," POV. I never bit on the whole thing hook line & sinker. But I did buy into the concepts that I felt were worth persuing.

The people. I loved the believers coming "home" every year. I loved, and still do, love the concept of the thing. The idea of the thing, "if a city were built & run and fully populated by believers, this is what it would be like." I think that's cool. Every year at HQ we lived for the Rock. It was our focus. In my dept. we looked to the Rock all year long. I designed promo ads, fought in meetings to "brand" it simply as "Good Food, Good Fun, Good Fellowship." I just couldn't wait every year to see the believers come home for the rock. I think the most fun I had was the year we 11th Corps/ Family 7th did ROA setup. We were the largest WC group ever and were arguably the rowdiest. After surviving our first year in residence and earning the respect of the family 7th, we hit ROA setup like a group of locusts. Especially after they told us the goal (in terms of time frame) for the setup and if we got done early we'd get a vacation & just report to our work assignments on opening day. One little story that kinda sums it up for me was the first day on the tent set-up crew. They had told us to bring heavy work gloves to deal with the bull ropes that secured the tent posts. These Haitian (I think, if memory serves) guys who came w/ the tents and ran the crew would do amazing stuff manipulating those heavy ropes w/ NO gloves!!! Wow. Being on big top set-up was a macho, manly type, lift the big poles - pull the heavy rope, grunt it up kinda thing. Somebody asked, "Hey! How do you guys do that without getting your hands all torn up, like what's your secret?" We all waited anxiously for the response.... "Pee." What??? We figured it must be some word from a language we didn't understand, some magical ointment or something. Just pee on your hands every day before you come to work. We all looked down in unison, then looked at our hands, shrugged our shoulders & somebody said. "No thanks man, we'll stick to the gloves." It was hilarious.

Hey. Do these guys you've been talking about happen to have updated versions of those songs? I have some old cassettes & even some vinyl albums of TWI music. Lots of great songs... some of them sound a little to very - - dated. Jus wonderin'... later. PS. I'll amen the comment about no blaming God for things like birth defects, etc. I'm thinking that the concept of perfection is lost among us humans. Personally, I believe that one would have to believe that God is some way IMperfect for Him to have made "mistakes" or do things that later became (as in on their own) bad or wrong. There are other videos, as impressive as the one above that show just how relatively "easy" it is during the development of a fetus for an entity who had power & control at that level of life to pervert the growth process. As memory serves... some "defects" occur when a single foundational cell, or gene is either left out or destroyed (or something like that, I'm not an authority on this topic...). With the foundation marred the rest of the natural development "derails." Children are then born with "problems." Love that music! ... speaking of broke... my middle name is ....

In fact. I think that it is the HEIGHT of HYPOCRACY for any person who professes to be Christian to speak of people as being of "other" races. Isn't it foundational to Christianity that all mankind decended from one man whom we call Adam? Therefore. All you white folk are my cousins. Since I love my family, I love all of you h@nkies too. My actual position on prejudice is that any and all terms used to describe people can be and for the most part are used mostly to disparage people. During my football, and other organized sports playing in Jr High then high school, we grew to become a band of brothers. We were united in a common purpose and the more individually committed we became to our goal (winning the game/s/ championship/s) the more united we became as a group. The more united we became the less any of our differences mattered to any of us. It was a wonderful thing. We, in the mid 1970's, in this country, ascended to a place where we would playfull banter about with each other, the most hideous racially disparaging terms available. Within our fellowship of brotherhood those terms, meant for evil, to tear one down became a joke to us. Ever see the movie, "Remember the Titans?" I lived a version of it. It was remarkably similar to what we went through building our football team. I still have this unspeakably wonderful bond with every guy on our squad 30 years after graduating. I'm not prejudiced. I've just learned how rediculously stupid it is to dislike someone you don't know, just because of their appearance. Our football team? We were a gang. Our puproses were societably accepted as honorable. Problem is, as someone mentioned a long time ago, OPPORTUNITIES. Opportunity and the American dream is still inextricably linked to "race" in this country. That's what I'm talkin' about! Many folks just don't understand that gang activity is a perverted justification of the Robin Hood theory. "We cain't get none of ours cause dey woun't let uz hav it. Dey jus give to dere sons & daughters jus so dey kin keep it all for demselves. All I really want is duh same thing dey have." They won't let me work legitimately for it, so I'll just take it. Street hustlers live by (& DIE by) you just gotta do what you gotta do. The average white amreican male says, "My Dad aint rich either! I don't do all that gang stuff to get ahead." Yes. but there is a loooong way from having little to having NOTHING - - and then being denied when you try to legitimately work for it. I won't bore anyone w/ the stories of the endless debate on this topic. I understand and concur w/ thinking that there is NO justification to "gang activity." I did say it was a perversion.... I'm just saying I understand basically where they're coming from, don't agree (I hope obviously) just understand. What is most interesting to me is how there is "NO" crime in New Knoxville. Yet 60 miles down the road in Dayton people take your car when you go to get gas. The basic difference I see lies in one word. Enough. In New Knoxville people have enough. Enough money, enough jobs, enough of the stuff that they want. In Dayton they don't. It brings out the worst in people who really would be happy with the EXTRA TV you have in your garage. You know, the one you put out there because you didn't have a room for it (because you have ENOUGH TV's in the rooms in your house you want them). The one you just keep - because its yours. Beyond the addiction, people steal our stuff because they feel we need it less than they and that we can replace it. Again there's no real justification, but gangs do gang stuff together because they long for and accomplish the SAME feeling of wonderful I have w/ my teammates. Feeling that great about being TOGETHER. knowing without shred of doubt that your brother has your back feels SOO great you don't care what it is you do. Ever wonder why ANYOBODY would subject themselves to playing football? (That stuff HURTS!) The greates memories I have, beyond any victory or loss is simply breaking the huddle and walking up to the line TOGETHER, with those guys. Looking down the line, all of us in uniform, lookin' good, the instant before the ball is snapped. That feeling - at that moment - is indescribably delicious. We all live for that feeling of unity. They get it in a gang when we should all get it in family. We will never rid our culture of gang activity until we all, as a culture have "enough." When they have "enough" in mexico and Cuba they will stop jumping our borders. Other countries don't like America and americans (beyond those who have radically differing religious thinking) basically because we have SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much and we share so little of it with them. Even some of the religious hatred is tied to how they feel that true religion would require a more equitable sharing of wealth. They are basically RIGHT. They read it in OUR Bible and SEE that we don't practice it. We in their eyes are a nation of the worst kind of hypocrites. It is no wonder t hey don't want to be Americanized. America has more missionaries from other countries here than we have, "over there." Gang members see a measure of "right" in what they do too. Mixed in w/ a huge portion of you basic perversion. It is next to impossible to convince them that what "feels so right" is wrong. That's all I have to say about that. (Forest Gump)

No I wasn't referring to you specifically. It's really difficult, sometimes to make the point one is trying to make in writing. I was commenting more on the comment than the person who made it. From this perspective. As a minority, I'm thinking that what we want is to be seen as people - period. Eg: This weekend, the conference championships will be decided in the NFL. There is a possibility that for the first time in history BOTH head coaches of the teams playing for the Super Bowl trophy will be black. Almost nobody noticed. I think that speaks of "racial" progress in this country. I'm not your black friend. I'm your friend. OK. My skin is darker than yours. I was pointing to the fact that the statement, "All the black people I know..." is very close to "Some of my best friends are black." (insert whatever heritage ....) (Alarms go off, generally speaking, in a black person's mind whenever a white friend of theirs makes statements that indicate that said white fellow just can't seem to forget that said friend is black. A change of heart is clearly indicated when we can speak of each other to third parties without even mentioning a person's heritage, which BTW is usually CLEARLY evident (at least in general) at a glance.) Plus. I was wondering if the person knew many blacks, or even enough black to know that within "black" culture there are blacks, who are as different from other blacks as blacks are from whites. Man that a big - wide topic. ! True. Well put also. I also have a 20 year old daughter. She is as well spoken an individual as one would ever meet. A National Merit Scholar in HS, currently a sophomore at Yale University on the closest thing they offer to a full ride scholarship carrying a 3.6 GPA (better than our President's) majoring in Molecular, Cellular & Developmental Biology. She doesn't utilize ebonics, or ghetto speak, but she could use either if she wanted, as can I. I don't "not let her" speak that way. I've simply taught her that differing dialects may be appropriate at times and that she should know how to speak to ANYONE she may come in contact with to be able to communicate a point to them. Agreed. I was pointing to the prejudice against people who DO choose ebonics and "ghetto speak" as their primary language. Also. I can "see" hatred in the very use of the term "ghetto speak." I know its a term. BUT. The way some people have used it in this thread - - at least bears discussion. No accusation intended. I'm just discusing the topic in general. I seem to have stepped into a battle there unwittingly. I don't advocate attacking folks on the forums, I have defended both myself and my positions quite vehemently. However I really don't like anybody railing on my friends, Dot being one of my dearest for over a decade. We've walked through some fires together (haven't we Dot?) and have come out on the other side. Of course noone wants gang ACTIVITY moving into their neighborhood. Of any kind from any one. I reference to my points about wielding a shotgun. Break into my house at night... accost my children on the street... step to me in an overly agressive manner. I don't care who you are, or your racial heritage... you'd better pack a lunch or buss a cap in my head before I can drop you on the spot. Why? Because I'd protect myself & mine from the evil you're attempting to pupretrate. HOWEVER. If a gangbanger moved in next door, I'd address him for what he does, not pre-judge him for who he IS. Even if he's a "BAD" person. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ For the record. I'm not prejudiced. In fact both of my ex-wives are white. My family is "racially" diverse. In fact I'm trying to, and believe we should - as a culture in America, eliminate the terms "racial," "race," etc., from my/our vocabulary.

Just like anything else... a few bad ones spoil the reputation of the majority... who come here and to the work that average american white males REFUSE to do.... for LESS than minimum wage.I have seen "them." Here in "Beautiful Ohio Where dreams come true...." "We" house groups of "Mexicans" in dormatory-type living that NO self-respecting american would live in.... So they can work in tree nurseries where they WON'T hire Americans to do the work because "we" would ask for "too much money." THEY happily work there, pool their resources and buy older, yet nice, vans to drive around in. Then they buy the american dream, Big screen TV, order their Dish Network and watch TV hispanic TV on a dish 500. They don't DEMAND anything. Not the majority. They want the SAME things from life you & I do. A nice home, nice clothes, good food, nice car & a big-screen high def. TV. I have no idea how many of them are "illegal." ... nor do I care. Sometimes they would cut them up & take them out in pieces, or break bones while "extricating" them.

First. Let me say that I'm not out to argue or put anyone down in any. This is precisely what I was referring to.A "border jumper" is simply someone who crossed the border into the US. The comparison I was drawing is that a person who comes into the US "today" from Mexico or Cuba is NOT accepted or acceptable. Yet coming in a generation & 1/2 (roughly) ago through Ellis Island is "accepted and acceptable. The basic difference between the two situation is that the white american males who run the country have placed restrictions on who can enter the country "legally." Immigrants had their reasons for wanting to come to the US, so does "Paco" from Mexico or Raul from Cuba. Of course. we have "good reasons" for restricting our souther border. The above comment, speaks to me, as a black person that, w/all due respect.... "You don't get it." Please. No insult intended, Please don't take it as such. I just believe that ther is NO difference between an immigrant of today and our storied ancestors who came through Ellis Island. I was pointing out that the nobility and effort, etc. that it took to convert a car to a boat and ROW it here from Cuba as being similar to the struggles it took for people to make it here through Ellis Island. We welcomed them through Ellis and write history books about them. Yet we tell "Paco" to go home. America is no more home to ANY American than it is to ANYONE from ANY other country in the world. Is it the fact that they came here gererations before Paco that makes them (& us) more ENTITLED to live here than the guy from Mexico who just wants to WORK & put food on his family's table? Our ENTIRE populace Today (with certain notable exceptions including the folk who lived here when Amerigo Vespucci, Chris Columbus & others arrived) today is the children of people who ARE NOT FROM HERE. However, from MY side of the "racial" fence it cannot be ignored that the people "we've" welcomed pretty much all look like the same guys who make the laws that close the borders and the people "we" send "home" look like me - - black that is. (Insert "we send white people away too!" comments here.) Respectfully. You got your information from a book that some "white guy from europe" wrote. I got the statistic I mentioned while standing in the courtyard of the largest slave castle of those in Ghana West Africa. Elmina slave castle is now a museum. I was there in Ghana standing in the exact same spot where the majority of the slaves bound for the Americas left from listening to a tour guide give his schpeel on the slave trade. Of all of the slaves who left Africa for the US, the oajority of them when through Ghana, and the majority of those went through Elmina and left "through that gate right over there." All of the stats escape me, but the reference link posted only speaks of the journey across the ocean. They have there in Ghana, at the museum where the trade happened records of the orders placed for workers. They didn't call them slaves then & there. They simply placed orders for workers for the plantations in america. They guide told us that when an order was placed they rounded up numbers of roughly 100 to one to be sure that they could fulfill the order - - else they would not be paid. Africans are a proud people, (just like your white ancestors who left "conditions) for better in the US). First of all they fought to keep their freedom and had to be defeated to be rounded up. Many warriors committed suicide (Kamakazi -style) rather than be enslaved. They there was the bataan type death march from the villages to the ports in 100+ degree heat. Many would die along the way.... Do you actually think they fed them well? One to the slave castles they were herded and stuffed into courtyards & separated men from women. Many were injured from the battle and then sickened from the walk to Elmina. NO MEDICAL CARE WAS PROVIDED. In such close quarters infection was rampant. Those pictures did not tell the story of the MAJORITY who came on boats w/ reconfigured cargo holds to get the MAXIMUM number of workers into the hold where they stayed for the journey. People died on a daily and sometime hourly basis. They simply threw the bodies overboard. Only the strongest, most fortunate, and most protected by GOD made it. My numbers stand. It depends on who writes the story - the message you get. I learned more about myself as an African American in 15 minutes in Elmina than I had learned in 45 years of life in the US. We don't get the whole story here. There it is... WHY is drug dealing, etc., synonymous w/gangs? Nobody threatens to shoot Johnny rich Dad's son for dealing, DO they?

Agreed. 100%I trust that folks understand that use of the terms "ignorant" and/or "uneducated" are denotative and absolutely not meant to connote that any of the contributors or readers of this forum are in any way unintelligent. That being said. I'm thinking we can still have a really good discussion on this topic. I'm prepared to say some things that I, as a black person, "never say to most white people." Why don't we say stuff to whites? Because in general "white people just get it." What I saw in a log post by CW was this. What she's seen and lived in the culture where she lives is more positive than the bullet holes in her house. As far as the hatred... how's this: Kinda sums it up, but I'll elaborate. That's hatred folks. Have you ever seen what a shotgun blast does to a human body? To wish this on somebody because that move to "your" town.... HATRED. Now. If someone, anyone, showed up at my door to harm my family. I'd buss a cap in dere arse, fo sho'. Can anyone tell me just WHO gave this country to US? Your immigrant relatives ARE freakin' "border jumpers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! White folk somehow believe that because they worked hard to pay for passage to the US. that are more entitled to live in the US than someone who worked hard to row accross the gulf of mexico in a car they converted to a boat. MY immigrant relatives are SLAVES. For every one slave that made it from africa there were at least 100 who dies along the way. Hmmm..... entitled to be here.?

Well. Just HOW MANY black people do you know? I use "ghetto speak" myself, at times, when I find it appropriate, I use the F-bomb at times, when I find it appropriate. My MOTHER was black. BTW. So was my Dad. I think I'm black too, except for this one be-atch, whom me I was trying to date her said to me, "You're not black enough!" Black enough? What some of you white folk, for as much as you don't want to admit it to yourselves, are very much uneducated about; is simply a cultural group of Americans and they use a dialect. Just because you don't like (how they speak) it or hate SOME of the behavior that takes place among gangs and in the areas in which they live.... Please rest assurred that what Coolwaters is doing is pointing out to you in a language you don't understand... Just how ignorant you are of this topic. I also speak in other languages and in other accents when I fell that is approproiate too. I speak "geek" when I'm talking to nerds too. The problem here is the hate that' sspewing about. take a closer look at it.

I'll try to remember to get a shot of the grass thing. I'm actually in their neighborhood on occasion. It was really freaky to me when I went to HQ to install a dish system in one of the units. I hadn't been in the OSC since the day I walked out when they fired me in Aug. '88. The most clear differences to me were all in the category of deteriation. We've all experienced urban deteriation. You go to HQ, the first thing you notice is the clear rhetoric on the signs on Wierwille road that have their yearly theme and the titles of the current Sunday "teaching." Then as you go down the road the trees aound the fountain are gone. The fountain looks "old." Then there's the overgrown grass. Overgrown grass is one of the BIGGEST cultural "no, No's" in the local area. Only undesireables let their grass grow long. People will cut their grass w/ scissors before they let it grow long. The blacktop where the ROA bigtop once stood every year is sunbleached and cracked w/weeds growing in some of the cracks The Auditorium looks "old & faded." Then the murals on the walls @ the OSC are gone, painted over w/whitewash. The entrance to the woods and the grass over there is a shiny and pristine as ever. Inside the OSC lobby, its the same only the building as less "buzz" of activity - clearly there are less people there. Then when they talk to you - - one at a time - - they all say the SAME things to you - - in the SAME order. "Where'd you come in from?" I had done HUNDREDS of installs before that day and not ONE customer asked me where I came in from - - Wierd. Then they start asking you questions that would "open the door" for them to witness to you. I kept my "door closed." Mostly because I was more than a little taken aback at how clearly deteriorated the place was when all I'd heard was how much "things were better." Then I picked up the latest version of the Way Mag. It was the exact same design, logos, graphics, and style that I had created somewhere around 1987. Only the names had changed. The titles of the writers reflect their current thinking. The scope of the ministry as reflected by the news in the magazine in a fraction of what it once was. In my mind the 18 years since I'd been there was like yesterday and the contrast smacked me right in the face. The fact that they were all "so happy & blessed to be there" was really erie. It was interesting being incognito there, I let them give me directions to where I was going, stuff like that. It was SOO clear that they were NOT witnessing to me I almost screamed. "Go ahead, get it over with! I know you're DYING to...!" They just sickened me w/ how friendly & helpful they were trying so hard to be. They had to have their engineers oversee what I was doing - wierd. FInally when I was finishing up thinking I just wanted to get outts dodge, I heard a "Hi Howard!" from behind me. It was one of my WC11 sisters who had been a really good friend. She just kept walking by. Wierd. Hardly what you'd expect from an old friend you hadn't seen in years. Thing is, they REALLY don't see themselves as wierd. They see US as lost and in need of their help & salvation.

Interesting choice of words Eagle. Even though I know you're mostly kidding about "being possessed" (and you actually weren't in the manner she meant). These days I'm thinking there is an insideous grain of truth to that whole "possessed" thing. In the denotative meaning being occupied and controlled by an evil spirit being is what they're talking about. With a veiled elliptical meaning of "you MUST be CRAZY not to think as we (TWIts) do." What else on earth could explain WHY we just don't follow along with the TWI thinking??? Seeing as THEY are certainly "right," and we're not clinically insane, we MUST be possessed not to follow along w/ them. Right? At least that's how THEY see things. In reality I'm thinking we were all at least somewhat "possessed," as in held by and controlled by "TWI" - - its concepts, speech and behavior patterns pulled us in - way beyond simple free will "involvement" in an organization. I mean, we all, as people, have rules and morals that we consciously adhere to. The moral rules (as in man laws) regarding "typically horny guys" dealing w/ babes demand that said horny guy stop at NOTHING in attempt to get laid by the aforementioned hottie. In the real world one could actually lose his membership card for the team of "typically horny guys" by purposefully abandoning the quest to get laid when on an actual date w/a babe. Therefore, I concur, you actually were possessed. By waybrain. All kidding aside, the more and more I think about the stuff I/we did while involved; I'm seeing a pattern of behavior that leads me to the following conclusion: If TWI was ever actually good, why all the control crap? The pattern I see is where people's brains actually "lock up" in certain situations and we make what we feel at the time is a conscious free will decision that is "all our own." BUT. The decision we make is according to what "TWI" would have us do (or at least it's contrary to what WE would "normally" do) in the situation. The deeper "IN" we are, the more closely the decision aligns with THEIR will. I think this stuff actually damages people's brains. The babe was obviously "in" much deeper than you. KUDOS to you Eagle. You were obviously still sane enough and not IN far enough that you saw the clearly INSANE nature of her comments. Man law (in the chapter which inspired the movie "Fatal Attraction") also clearly states that one is excused from the obligation to seek to lay even the hottest (under any standard of "babedom") babe IF said babe would be found CRAZY by any two or more typical guys. You're safe. I move that your membership is intact and you are still in good standing. Any opposed? Amen Kevlar

Cool post Cool. I share some of your feelings & experiences. Christian ettiquette training in TWI & the corps was review for me. In my family we have formal meals for every holiday w/ fine china, placesettings, multiple glasses, flatware, etc. I agree w/ the TWIT-brain poison stuff and I too, was somewhat socially retarded by my time in TWI. That astounded me & I think helped save me from being still involved in TWI today. Not wanting to turn your story into my story, but I will say that I feel you on what you wrote. I also remember you from posting back in the TranceChat days and will say that I've noticed that you have, in fact, made the changes you've spoken of. Congrats babe! I think that re-self discovery is a BIG part of the antidote to waybrain. NOBODY comes to twi as a waybrained person. We all have individual selves that we suspend while we accept that crap. RE finding one's self is a BIG key to freedom.

Part of me likes to think that I'd get a real kick out of going to a TWI fellowship if nobody there knew me. Another part of me thinks that if I did my head would explode. I'm thinking I might grab somebody by their collar and start trying to slap them back to sanity. Every time I see one of them in their world so many things rush to my brain to say to them ... then I just - - don't - - say - - much. I think what gets me about the whole thing is how freakin serious they are. They really think that the world they live in today constitutes a change for the better! Maybe it is better than getting yelled at over a nice lunch. --------------------------

Eagle... I'm rolling on the floor Dude!!!! I have to say, however.... Just HOW BAD does it have to be for a stone cold babe to get a typically horny guy to STOP thinking about SEX???? Wow. Where is your reality show camera crew when you need 'em...? Lots of guys would have been saying in those thought bubble things after each point, stuff like, "I can't give you more money but we can still have sex...." "Being possessed only enhances my sexual performance..." AND... when you dropped her off at her place.... "I'll forgive you if you have sex w/me." Glad you've recovering from such a mind altering experience.

I've been witnessed to a few times by TWI folk. I actually considered driving up to HQ & takin' in a Sunday service. Can't bring myself to do it though. They always say the SAME "things are better now" thing to anyone X they witness to. THAT, to me is a problem on a number of levels. Actually, things are NOT better there. No matter what they think they think. I recently drove down Wierwille road. To my absolute SHOCK, there was grass in the ROA campground area thay was horribly overgrown for ANYONE's standards. THAT to me, was a VERY telling thing. What? They don't have money to fix the grasshoppers they use to cut the grass? Or they don't have the personell? Or have they simply forgotten the scripture.... He who is faithful in that which is least is also faithful in that which is much. HOW can a CHURCH whose business is saving SOULS and winning people to "God's Ministry" not keep their grass cut???? HOW??? Problem is, they don't seem to see how bad it is for all of their efforts to convince THEMSELVES... Thing asre better now.

HUH?I'm all for the whole "personal responsibility for one's own actions thing," but comments like that, I think, must be addressed. 1. What's up with the assmuption that BLAME must be attributed? ??? 2. Why do TWI supporters attibute some sort of "life" to TWI as it is some sort of "being?" 3. Be there? Just where was this "there?" People had bad experiences at the hands of other PEOPLE. I had people do & say bad & ugly things to me. I tried not to do bad stuff to people but I'm sure that at some point in time along the way I did or said something that contributed to a bad experience for somebody else. I guess one could "blame" me of blame folks for what they did to me. But this concept of assigning blame and telling people "you could have left at any time," I think is more of a shield for the wrong doings than anything else. Why? Because it fails to address the fact that PEOPLE were doing WRONG in an environment that by its very nature and definition was a search for and a lifetime striving to find and BE RIGHT!!! There are certain circumstances where you can't (or maybe shouldn't would be a better word) tell people "If you can't stand the heat you shoulda left the kitchen. The "reality" is that any and every TWI event should have been a safe haven where one could count on people doing their absolute best to be RIGHT, GOOD and all that good stuff. Fact was, it wasn't. For as cool as life pretty much EVER was at HQ there was always an underlying sense of some intangible thing that just wasn't "good." I'd like to add an "amen" to all of the above as it specifies the intangible thing I mentioned and add the following perspective. As an HQ staffer.... Whenever we ran headlong into the "intangible" stuff it became like an invisible sledgehammer. eg; If you weren't buddies w/the finance guys and you asked for a raise because you felt your need had surpassed your salary.... POW! You didn't get the raise. .... but it was "for a good reason." There seemed to ALWAYS be a reason for everything that happened that just shouldn't have been going on in the ministry. Things like: (in numerical order from above) Some of the Good reasons: 1. VPW is soooooooo great, He's THE man of God for this generation.... (JUST WHO ever said we had to HAVE a "man of God" for EVERY generation?) 2. VPW is just human. (besides YOU were wrong and further, if you don't see it, its because HE is THE man of God - - and YOU"RE not. 3. This is the HQ of GOD's ministry, only the best will do for God. 4. There is no "pecking order" that would be "off the word" it's only fair that seniority counts for something. 5. The ministry IS a corporation after all and no corporation is perfect. 6. My goal for YOU is that YOU be God's best and YOU do YOUR utmost for His Highest. (Its my job as your coordinator to be a good steward of the resources (YOU) that God has entrusted me with. 7. Well. Their office is right across the hall from each other and the trustees have to interact w/ them often on financial decisions "for the ministry." 8. Its not their fault that the trustees want to bless people. 9. We're not under that law, we're under grace. Besides the Bible says, "be not drunken" not don't drink or don't have alcohol in your fridge... at home, in the office, in your custom monogrammed (the believers gave it to me as a GIFT!) flask inside your suit jacket pocket, the glove box in your car, the saddlebags on your motorcycle,....). etc., ... having sex w/somebody's WOW sister (or bro' - - insert proper gender [no pun intended] :-) ! Good reason. - - since the word says it' s not good to "burn" (with sexual desire) and that would distract you from moving the word - - AND - - we're not under the law - - - AND - - - the word doesn't SPECIFICALLY say you shouldn't have sex, it says you shouldn't commit adultery - - and you have to be married to commit adultery . We're not married - - SO... as the song says.... "Let's get it on!" etc, ... since it's MY job here at the center of the move of God's word to be over this specific piece of the ministry, God's gonna tell me what YOU should do before he tells you. etc., "THAT policy was written by people who were inspired by GOD! God won't bless the work of our hands if YOU don't follow it (no matter HOW STUPID, or obsolete said policy was). In fact said policy was written because we had to get the staff handbook done by the publication deadline. We didn't have anything better at the time & said we'd alter it later after we figured out how the new equipment would fit in what we were doing. All of the above is part of "WAYHEAD." There is a BIG difference between making a mistake and hurting someone and intentionally schmoozing up to the decision maker who can give you a raise. OR "scratching his back" to repay him when the time came. OR. wanting to be a JR. M.O.G. over your little piece of GOD's kingdom. There was LOT of crap going on throughout the history of TWI. We largely ignored it, made exccuse for it or indulged ourselves in it. Period.

... on being "right." As one ages, and matures, the concept of "being right" takes on less and less significance. The concept of things, "as you see them" takes preeminence as mote time goes by and one gets more and more life expeience to look back on. I'm sharing my experiences as they relate to and have helped form my personal opinions. I'm not saying, this is, or that, is "right." Only God is qualified to determine what is or isn't right. Its funny how I've come to that conclusion. It seems that each and every time in my life whne I've had an "eureka moment" where I've thought, "I just know I'm right about that." I've later found out that I've only stumbled upon knowledge that was already there and has NOTHING to do w/ me. I guess that's right. Right? We all have experiences and opinions and we all only count for 1. Some things ARE wrong. Some things are right. Some things just don't really fall into the category of right or wrong Right?