HCW

Agreed. However, I'm still somewhat driven when it comes to this subject by this: "And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned,..." I Corinthians 5:2a I honestly cannot deny that there had to be SOME sort of "puffin' up" in my head that kept me blind to what was going on. I'm speaking for myself now and any other Way Corps grad who was committed to Corps Principal #1: Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Seeing as GOD certainly knew what was going on, we possibly COULD have found out from him. I'm just bein' real, not kicking my or anybody else's butt or saying "we should have known." What I am saying is I think God DID tell us. It was the totalitarian nature of the "leadership" structure that put VPW & Craig "above" everyone else. It seemed to me, looking back with 20-20 hindsight vision, that they two appeared to be at the TIP top of the "top" leadership. Leadership "layers" developed. Its not like we, who were on the "lower" layers didn't fight the wrongs. In fact, I feel it was quite the opposite. In the 80's HQ seemed kinda "noisy" in comarison to how it seemed to be during the first year I lived there in '78-'79 and in visits to HQ prior to '78. I definitely noticed a difference when I came back to my staff position after three years in the Corps. HQ had an "air" about it like being outside at night in a big snowfall. You could almost "hear" the peace like you can almost "hear" the silence out in the snow. Footsteps sound like "poof" even when you stomp as hard as you can. When I came back it had more of a crispness, a "corporate" feel. There was also a steadily increasing amount of arguments among newby staff "leadership" who ordered old timers to do things contrary to the "old ways." The organization itself didn't "rather morn" enough to do the right thing. But then again, the corporate structure.... Legally there were only three members of The Way International. Harry, Ermal & VP, the original three trustees. By the law of the land we were powerless to "take away from" us VPW. We couldn't legally put him out if we wanted to. I'm thinking part of that "noise" I percieved was the sound of the Holy Spirit being grieved. There was an increasing, "my way or the highway" attitude. Lots of folks left too. So. I'm not tring to take responsibility or pass responsibility to victims or those who didn't know. I'm just saying that, in foreward looking hindsight, "I didn't know" was not enough to save people. Now that we DO know what DID occur, we can certainly stay out of "The Way" of totalitarian organizations like The Way. Totalitarian organizational structure, by its very nature is WRONG. It primarily paves the way for abuse of the individual. It is and always be the most precious ones of society that will be hurt. Our injured, our youngest, our least experienced, our sweetest, most trusting ones WILL be the ones whom our adversary, like a roaring lion will steal, kill, destroy and devour. I would say this. CHALLENGE in whatever manner suits your personality.... challenge leadership to put power in the hands of the people. When they smile at you and gently say, "Oh we couldn't do that ..." You can smile back at them and gently tug their mask off & say, just as gently..."Oh. You ARE a wolf, aren't you. Then do a dignified "180" and show them your six as you walk out the door.

I like my coffee light & sweet Mark, "just like my women" --> I'm kidding, about the women part. How do you take yours? My cyber hand is extended.... Most of by best friendships developed after a fight. ##################################33 ANYONE who defends that activity is INSANE. I don't care WHO they are, what position they held, OR what great thing they've EVER done. Period. I Corinthians 5 tells us what we should have done....V2: "he that hath done this might be taken away from among you... to deliver such an one over to Satan, for the destruction of the flesh... Know ye dont that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?... Purge out the old leaven that ye may be a new lump... I wrote unto you...not to company with fornicators... if any man that is called a fornicator... or a railer, or drunkard...with such an one, no not to eat... Therefore, put away from yourselves that wicked person. We didn't do that. Noting the "priciple of finger pointing" my "remark" comes back to me. What did YOU do HC? WHY didn't you know? What was it about YOU that made YOU, HC, susceptable to THEM so that YOU could not protect your beloved sisters in Christ. I didn't know... is NOT good enough. How far does "I'm sorry." heal? There have been a few times in my life when I have felt that "and he rent his clothes..." most devastating type of pain. When: - my daughter told me... - I heard of the death of my father... - ... death of my mother ... - I read the results of a paternity test. It had my name on it and said of my now three year old daughter that I am... "...rejected as the biological father." Have you ever screamed and moaned and cried at the same time, so much so that it felt like the agony had a life of its own? You kinda don't want to feel it again and feel like you'd be willing to do most anything to avoid it and help anyone else avoid it.

Thanks again House... Actually, to kind come full circle on my "remark...." Had I known, & I wish that any of our sisters had told me of the abuse going on, I would have marched directly to the Shelby County Sherrif's office. I would have stood by their side in support throughout the whole legal process. That is precisely what I did when my daughter came to me. She told me on a Sunday evening and we were filing a criminal report first thing Monday mornning. I may have posted some positive things concerning VPW & LCM on this thread but I didn't like either of them enough to turn a blind eye on that.

no RAF I haven't seen it. Not sure if I know to get to it today.... help.

You're quite welcome... and thank you all for your kind words.

Radar; On the from Birth to the Corps thing. I should have mentioned highly edited versions of personal testimonies, only printed w/ permission and pen names, of course. We were told the purpose of it was to illustrate God's calling on people's lives.

How???????? I count meeting and becoming friends w/ Kaveh Kamyar as one of the singularly great priviledges of my life. His personal testemony changed my life on the spot. Tears and great anguish of heart. The world is lessened with his loss.

Kaveh...............

Thanks Thelema. I'm incredibly proud of my daughter getting into Yale. She's really quite an amazing young lady.

You know Tom.... People have been arguing over written words for centuries. We're no different. I understand completely why anyone might see "the remark" as callous. It was callous. My heart IS hardened over this issue. I AM approaching it from an unemotional POV. Intentionally. However. My "calliosity" ;)-->is certainly NOT directed at Rascal; or any other victim of any of these abuses, pre or post TWI, inside or outside TWI or any other organization in any country or culture in the world. I am callous towards the ACT, the practice and most of I'm hardened against all the purpetrators, promulgators and activists who promote this hellacious thinking. I did reread rascals post about 10 times. That is part of what I did after "the post" before my pre-post, post. The context and subject of my remark was healing, noting GOD's ability and promise to work people's bad TWI experiences "for good" in our lives. I wasn't blindly ranting without consideration of people who've been hurt. Hurting people was the central consideration of that portion of the post. It started with: "IF...." "If your TWI experiences have not or are not working together for good in your life..." "If you haven't yet, take the time to focus on WHY I allowed, or what was it about me tha caused me to be susceptible???" Ellipsus supplied... TO THOSE HORRIBLE BASTARDS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ABUSING ME." I went on to include myself, "What is it ABOUT ME that caused me to...TWICE. I didn't see, ... that she was using me." I am well acquainted with pain. I know enough about past hurts to know that scars heal eventually. If a wound is truly healed, it won't hurt if you bump it. The slightest brush against an open, or unhealed wound could cause excruciating pain. Frankly. If what I said hurt you, and you think you're "beyond that" consider this; you probably aren't healed yet. My apology or lack thereof should be the least of your concerns. Besides, I supplied a 16 point detailed apology before writing word one of "the remark." "2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen." Were I to apologize now, what more would I say? I'm absolutely NOT gonna say "a simple I'm sorry" because WordWolf took exception and Mark ordered me to say THAT. Why? Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines apology: Grk, apo + logos (literally words from the surface of) or "apologia" and includes "A formal justification." and... "Sometimes apology, like apologia, implies not an admission of guilt or regret but a desire to clear the grounds for some course, belief, or position." Which should be dreadfully clear by now is what I did both prior and subsequent to "the remark." I certainly did not appreciate Wordwolf's not so subtle linking of me to those who "have suggested that the women were/are liars...." Mark's, just say this (what I think you should say). Sometimes, "I'm sorry" alone just doesn't cut it. I put a lot of thought and my valuable time in my pre-post and post-post apologies. I felt my "remark" deserved more than, "I'm sorry." I gave it much more than that, opened my life to you, largely a bunch of strangers, exposed some of the most hurtful and personal things from people's lives that you really have no right to know. Why? Hmmmm. I did that because I'm ignorant and insensitive, not man enough to.... I know that the focus of what I WAS talking about got turned to something I wasn't. My apology was summarily rejected and criticised by someone who doesn't know what an apology is. He simply tried to force me to say what he wanted me to say and used the pain some feel at the hand of people other than me as justification for that. That's my story & I'm stickin' to it.

My position on "Individual responsibility" is rooted in what I'll call the "reverse engineering" we ALL go through in the aftermath of traumatic events. The "if only's," if you will. When my 9ry old sat on my lap detailing her story..."If only we hadn't sent her, we knew the guy's a drunken jerk" is what I and her Mom felt. "I shouldn't have________________." she thought. We said NO! HE did it TO you. "If only________________...." fill in you blank. Corecion, by deninition releases you from responsibility from what you're forced to do. Many types exist, including emotional. Clinton was impeached because as President, HE knew better. Whereas I believe Monica was a full, willing and even proactive participant; THE PRESIDENT was responsible for the events, the incursions, not Monica. I'm making a distinction When the pain is acute and the event just past. At times we feel, "If only I had___________ done the most extreme thing to completely avoid the actual event. I'd glady have done it (past tense). "I could have: not answered the phone, told him go to hell and not went, etc." those thoughts severely trouble some. Acknowledging one's level of culpability, I believe, acomplishes positive things. 1. It SOLIDIFIES, beyond anything, anyone may say that "it" was NOT your fault. EG; I went to the coach, HE drugged ME. My 9yr old was overcome with guilt because she had hugged he father. Firmly establishing what she did was how we clarified for her that what she did didn't matter. We got nowhere with the healing until after that. Sometimes people who are hurting can't see what they DIDN'T do until they take a good look at what they did do. My psychologist, not VP, taught me that.

Shaz; Agreed. You bring up a most interesting point. My own "From Birth to The Corps" paper touched on my life's sexual history too. As one who worked in Way Publications I wondered why nothing was ever done with those papers in terms of publishing a huge journal of testimonies of people's deliverance. Sorry to disappoint any of you who may think I have VPW "stars in my eyes," but I think he used the binder you spoke of to create his hit list. You don't come across as "the type" one could get over on. People who do that stuff size up their victims, yea or nay, in an instant. I have a post coming on the "apology" tip... pls stay tuned. Evan. I plead rookie on the Non Profanity rule. Its generally not my practice to use it. Consider it toned.... Also, I think we're saying the same thing too. I look at it like the fellowlaborer with God thing. You do your part He does his part. To be clear, my point: God can't do it w/ our willing heart, THEN He changes you. I usually jump that point because too many say, "I'll pray about it...." but do "nothing" in terms of effecting change. (((((((((house)))))))))) been there, done that. my issue w/ Mark is not about the good stuff he said. I always listen.... A

Oh, I'm sorry Mark, but I'm not gonna apologize. Why? I never said, nor did even I suggest, that the victim bore responsibility for the actions of the purpetrator. What I did say was a statement in illustration of the fact that EVERY person is responsible for their OWN actions. If you pulled your head out of your own foot for a SPLIT second, you'd have seen that. That is a basic central principle of life. It has nothing to to w/ TWI, but everything to do with the simplicity of the fact that every man will stand before God and give account of HIS OWN ACTIONS. If you go somewhere you are responsible for where you went. That doesn't mean you're responsible for what someone does TO you while you're there. You speak as if I said, You knew he was gonna try to sex you up and you went anyway! That is absolutely not what I said nor is it in any way what I meant. I will NEVER apologise to anyone for making reference to basic truth. I will also never apologize for something I didn't say; especially because some pseudo-intellectual, wannabe teacher, leader, spiritual guide, debate king, hero complex suffering jerk orders me to. (Oh. I'm not calling names I'm just making a declarative statement in observation of your readily apparent characteristics.) Your opinions are in no way humble, nor are your thinly veiled attacks subtle. If you were half as smart you think are you would have percieved that my lenthy post was in no way a defense of the attacker's position. I wasn't writing that for or to you, nor was it submitted for your approval or acceptance. You have taken the truth of what I spoke and turned it into a lie because you serve yourself, not these folks you've "known for quite a while." Some you've known less than two years, which in my book is a short while. Then you blame me for your actions and try to get me to apologise. Your audacity and superficial "concern" offends the very ones you pretend to protect. Nope. Nada. Won't do it. Not appropriate at this juncture. In the five days since I registered here, I've found that I've known some of these folks for around 25 years. I know what happened to some people. How does your debateful highness know I wasn't violated? REVEALATION???? OR. How do YOU know I wasn't one of the ones who bought into the lie and "healed" a few babes myself? After all I WAS leadership! Seeing as I'm not yet worthy to engage you in your "by permisssion only" forum I'll tell you here. I don't care how "very tough a debater" you are, nothing more than a ***** (cat) to me. You have simply lurked in the cyber shadows in wait for something I said that you could attack. You are quite welcome to keep you weak and again, thinly veiled threats to yourself. VP, LCM and their transgressions, nor you or anyone will diminish, deter or in any way alter my path through this life. For a time my path is flowing right through the middle of your perceived kingdom. iMho you act PRECISELY like the version of TWI that we all left and so many of us dispise. You can simply pucker up and attempt to kiss my foot as I zoom past you & eat my cyber-dust when I'm gone by. Do I sound like I'm worried? I aint afraid a no ghost!

Laleo; It seems to me like I haven't learned who in greaseSpot I shuld and should not bow down too. I'm stubborn that way. That's basically why I was fired from TWI staff. Thanks :)-->

I guess now its God's fault so many were hurt by VP & Craig & their relationship. Right.

TheEvan; If God COULD change people, don't you think HE would have changed VPW? People only cange when they desire to do so in their hearts.

Mark can't you see that I was writing at roughly the same time, roughly the same stuff you wrote? I just didn't post it til later in the day. Now you make snide remarks under the guise of a helpful hint. Gee whiz man, if that's not attacking me personally trying to get a "fight" started... what is? You can fight by yourself.

No Mark. I don't need no stinking shovel.

God is bigger than all this. It seems to me like people assume: That because I'm new to this forum I'm new to these issues. I'm not. Just because I knew VP & Craig and they never had sex w/ me forced, or otherwise and that I remember the good days I had in TWI that they never hurt me at all. It seems people also assume that because & make no bones about being Corps and that I was way Int'l staff that I subscribe to the "the whole world revolves around me and what I think or see" attitude. I've discussed these issues before, both inside and outside the way. I was devastatingly hurt by TWI by a lot more people than Craig & VP. I've always hated superior attitude and spoke out against it a lot. As you get to know me you'll see there is a method to my madness. I'm not ignorant, nor an I unknowledgable of things I speak about. I'm a voice for reason and reality. I'm not here to argue. I have read a LOT of threads before posting my first letter here. I've seen and continue to see little telling comments that indicate certain things. I see that some people have actually imbraced their pain, whatever it may be, and have decided to live with it, some have shed it, some wear it like a badge of honor. Embracing great pain and certainly wearing it as a badge are not things God wishes for his people. Pain is a subject that I am infinately qualified to speak on. I'm highly qualified, by my experience, to speak on the wrongs recieved at the hand of the ministry. I'm not the one to take a superior position. I'm just one voice among many. I don't see myself as superior to anyone. So fricken what? I worked at HQ. Its just one job on my resume. In fact I don't even list it on my reume. My time in TWI doesn't define me in any way. When they fired me, I turned a sharp 180 and walked. I didn't even ask why. They fired me on the last Friday of the year with ROA to start on Saturday, stil expecting me to do my ROA photography responsibilities. I said. "You MUST be crazy." walked out and have not set foot in the OSC since. Well, maybe once, to get some of my stuff. I did call Mrs. VPW about 5 or so years after and went to visit w/her on the Wierwille home patio. Mrs. seemed the only sane one of the bunch. At any rate. I'm also not the one to tell anybody, you need to get healed... NOW, its been long enough. In fact I saw a post on one of the threads here on GreaseSpot where somebody was talking about some of the crap in that regard happening at Rome city. The poster spoke about a guy who was injured in the LEAD accident. The guy had hurt his back really bad and did a cartwheel in 'believing action' concerning his healing. That guy was me. Well I'm still me, I guess, but.... Anyways. That whole last year of The Way Corps was hell for me. "I just wanted the knowledge." The kept trying to throw me out. I kinda thought LCM didn't want me around as a reminder of how screwed up things were. People were dying left & right, that's how bad it was. PS. If you ever wondered about that LEAD accident feel free to ask. I was riding shotgun. There are two people alive who knew the whole scoop on why we wrecked. The driver & me. Ever break a car windshield with your head in service to the Lord? later folks. peace.

I plead the 2nd. "2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen." I don't feel at all personally attacked by you. My mother was raped as a young woman. My older sister suffered the tyranny of abortion. My younger sister, at one point in her life, prostituted herself for drugs. My oldest ex-stepdaughter, when she was 9 years old and at the time, my daughter crawled up on my lap after telling me sadly, "Daddy, I need to tell you something..." told me, "My father licked my butt." and then burst into tears. My currently nine year old daughter was molested by a male cousin around age 4. Do I need to discribe the pain, anger and feeling of absolute helplessness I've felt over the past 30yrs? Or will it suffice to say I have a little more than "a glimpse into their perspective..." Not tryin to be mean or insensitive. I trust all would agree that the topic of sexual abuse, by its very nature is the highest form of meanness and insensitivity. I do not believe that there is, for the victims, ANY way to breach this subject without the potential that they would connect with their pain, unimaginable to me. Of COURSE, I'm aware that victims of this abuse may "agonize over this question." I would also say that IF there was any sin on the part of the abused in terms of culpability for the act that is cast equally far from them as I said before. God, my dear, is no respecter of persons. I would also add, "Surely he, and no one else, has carried the punishment for our griefs and sorrows for the judgement which was brought about by their sins; smitten by God and humbled. But he was pierced for our rebellion, buised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stipes WE are healed. Isa. 53:5. I didn't write that one either. It is no small deal to me, its among the world's BIGGEST deals to me. Once I'd felt the pain, equal to feeling the death of a loved on behind MY OWN DAUGHTER being abused, I vowed to do my best to NEVER feel this again. I've never tried to make VPW's transgressions appear understandable by that, or any other comment I've made. The only way one could understand the actions is from the point of view of reprehensible behavior. Regardless of what the victims, knew did or whatever, the responsibility falls on VPW et al. Irrespective of the fact that he was married he was in ministry. There are a whole lot of "woe to you's" concerning how ministers care for GOD's flock. VPW will answer to GOD, not me. I don't excuse him in any way no matter what I feel or don't about feel about his ministry. All I'm saying is that just because VPW committed these heinous sins that doesn't negate any of the good he also did. That's a hard pill to swallow. You wanna jump Ol Testament on me? I know what they did to rapists. It ... wasn't - shall we say pleasant. BTW. God didn't Change Jacob, JACOB changed JACOB. As much as some my not want to believe it, but it did seem like VPW actually, finally repented before his death. Of course it feels like too little too late for many. This is not to say he wasn't brazen & all that. I know the whole David story, and how others lost their lives for ONE sin. The problem with that is that we don't live in the Old Testament any more. AND Grace is NOT a license for sin. God still instructs us to be wise as serpents.... Thank Him that we have a true savior in Christ Jesus. YES, you CAN logically deduce that VPW did the things he did. It doesn't matter how slick he was. You have not seen any callous dismissal of the betrayal of MY dear trusting sisters. Why do you not see me as one of YOU? WE are members of the body of Christ. I am as angered as you at their betrayal. Were I to see VPW today I might punch him in the face for what he's done. How he betrayed ME. I did, at least, look at LCM like I'd just as soon kill him as look at him. Last time I saw him, not two years ago. Although the memory of the incident may never go away, the pain from it can. Please do not deny God's promise of healing in your life because VP or whomever your attacker was, is an ..... As long as you continue to "live it over and over, trying to figure out what you did to bring it on....." you are allowing your attacker to maintain power over you. Take back your power! I don't care if you lay naked, sperad eagle on HIS bed, juices flowing, the responsibility NOT do do it fell upon HIM. PERIOD. Contradiction? No. Even if you were "all over HIM." Doesn't matter. HE had clear instructions from GOD, his marriage vows, ethics et al. to not take advantage of YOU. All of the reasons a person allowed themselves into the situation are irrelevant compared to the responsibility of the minister. The command to "feed my sheep" is a clear and direct from God as "Thou shalt not eat of it was to Adam." So it doesn't matter what YOU did or didn't do. HE SHOULD HAVE NEVER TOUCHED YOU. The importance of recognizing one's culpability goes 100% toward the personal healing of the abused. Therefore God tells us "If we confess...." The act of confession moves your heart to where God lives. Rebellion (like the sin of witchcraft) moves your heart away from God. Psychologists will tell you that the first step in emotional healing is to acknowledge the emotional malady. When we confess, HE, God, is faithful to forgive and cleanse us. The he takes the dirt, turns away from you and throws it so far away we can never get to it. He turns back & smiles & we say, "Thanks Daddy." "For what?" Then he hugs us, just because we're standing there with him. We must think about our part. Then settle our mind on the fact that our sin, whatever sin, was paid for long ago. Then we should "fuggeta boutit." Speaking of medical facts. The mind, itself cannot distinguish between a vividly imagined thought and an actual event. When "you just live it over and over" you renew the emotional injury each time. Acknowledging "it" in all of its facets, good, bad & ugly is the primary and most important part of the healing process. Then throw in "there is therfore now NO condemnation...." Then we MUST let it go. Spiritually speaking, when we hold onto the sin God has FORGIVEN, CLEANSED and THROWN away from us, it is rebellion against God. Basic disobedience. This in and of itself is sin. Go ahead, argue. God says let it go. Let it Go! If He forgets it who are you to remember? But honestly God, it hurts sooo bad. True. It does. I'm sure many are far beyond the pain, if so good. This too, will pass. This is why He sent the comforter.... AND. Its OK to HATE the BASTARD that did it. Once you have been cleansed, this TOO, will pass. You can't condemn yourself for experiencing natural emotions God programmed into us. You've been wronged, God isn't gonna beat you down further (like some folks we know). He has already set a path for us back to Him and health, we simply need to "this is the way, walk ye in it." Agreed. "It WAS so dirty, so abusive, and so wrong....." My oldest daughter HAS been betrayed. By her own mother. I had to teach her as a little kid how to deal w/that. For a few years she crawled in a shell and would hardly speak to anyone but me and her sisters. Today she is one of the strongest, most impressive young ladies one will ever meet. She's a senior this year, #1 in her class and is one of the tip top high school students in the country. She got accepted at Yale University last month. ************************************* I'm not insensitive. Of course this is a sensitive issue. I know that. I have faced and am facing more than my fair share of extreme hardships. My ex-stepdaughter was molested by her own biological father. I wanted to rip his throat out with my bare hands. He claimed he was asleep when he did it.... he got off without one minute of incarceration. She was terrified of the concept of being alone with him. At age 9 she had NO LEGAL right to refuse. He mother, my wife at the time, had no way to refuse participation in the custody/visitation arrangement. If my wife were to do what was best for her daughter and keep her away from THAT beast, SHE faced incarceration herself. The court battle alone might certainly scar my daughter for life. I injected this point of logic into the equation: "IF, there is nothing wrong with you AND you did this in your sleep, THEREFORE.... ANY time you go to sleep you are a threat to do it again. And, since you work hard, you may fall asleep, as in take a nap. THEREFORE... it will NEVER be safe for you to be alone with your daughters under ANY circumstance where it is likely for you to fall asleep. A perfect Catch 22. The psychologist we were working with agreed. He would have to admit to something being wrong & therefore be prosecuted, OR agree he was unsafe to be alone with girls. That forced him to agree to never have any unsupervised visitation. I supervised the visitation. ************************************* My comment that brought folks out of the woodwork was rooted in what i DO know about these matters, not what I DON'T. It is what DID happen to my sisters in Christ that causes me to emphasize, women, even young girls MUST have unwielding, unflinching iron fortified boundaries. Men in positions of power cannot be trusted with women... even Ministers. My actual personal opinion is ESPECIALLY ministers. It is inherently unfair to tell women YOU must be careful. The very illogic of the statement is painful. That pain pales in comparision to the pain subsequent to the abuse. My statement was "the lesser of two evils." I will shout is from the highest rooftop if it will keep ONE innocent girl safe. The world is not a nice place, duun-cha know.

I was just about to post my next post. However, before I post that post I'm gonna post this pre-post post. Its clear to the newcomer that there are issues that are very touchy to some folks. Maybe if I rearrange the words that I posted earlier the point of this pre-post post will be more clear. What if I had written: "OK. I accept that you say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you...." Why did you not see, "I accept that VP was all of these horribly negative things to you..." in what I wrote??? Or "VP was horribly negative to you"...???? It seems like all you saw was the last part. I'm not gonna repost that. It My next post was written earlier today. I didn't get a chance to post it yet.....

Yo WordWolf; Man. After reading your posts, sometimes I think you should change yout handle to "BullInAChinashop." I had taken a vacation day and spent the better part of that day reading stuff websites concerning The Way. I read about 80% of the stuff on most of the sites in total, & read a few in their entirety. I used to post regularly as K.I.S.S. on TranceChat. Hit me on my details if you want. Of course I haven't read all of the comment threads here on GreaseSpot but.... To bottom line it. I read enough to see that lots of you have been around here for years. An idiot could see at a GLANCE that you have 2329 posts as of this writing. You call yourself "WordWolf." What I've seen of your posts, you lurk in cybershadows attacking most anyONE and anyTHING positive spoken about TWI. Yet. Especially so of this thread... not ONE scripture. You're a wolf alright. Only in the sense that wolves are skilled hunters and efficent attackers who are adept at concealing themselves prior to executing well planned and executed attacks. You even "run in a pack" with those who think like you. I've owned two wolves, well, wolf dogs. Siberian Huskys can never be completely tamed because of the wolf in their blood. They are extremely intelligent and carry themselves with a majestic dignity that I don't see in most of your posts. You project the same ego centric negative insanity on people that most of us left TWI to get away from. Especially those who, "left at the first sign of trouble." Your criticisms don't even line up with your apparent belief system. I usually dismiss them as invalid on that point alone. One of the things I DON'T care about is how many issues YOU do or don't have with my posts. Please do not feel the need to quantify or clarify any criticism you have of me or my posts. I don't care about that either. Not will it in any way endear me to you. I don't care to dislike you either. I don't care if you proclaim from your lofty post that, "It sounds like you have given this some thought, and are currently giving it more thought. It also sounds like you're not lumping everyone into one stereotype or another." Nor do I care if you think, "Thats good...." How can I care about and give credence to your proclamations when you apparently believe that a reasonably intelligent adult person can look at photograph with a bunch of people in it and not know its a croud. (????) If you said things that actually made real world sense, I might engage you in a hearty debate. Instead you verbally place a tent over an area then speak within the shadow you created.... VPW wasn't the only account of the "famous India trip." I saw the pictures from the trip. One could reasonably say the croud in the picture wasn't following VPW because they "wanted healing." (Maybe they wanted his autograph???) I also don't care how many healings VP produced because I have a LOOOOONNNG list of ones I witnessed after I prayed for people. I'm on Doug McMullan's list of people 'he' MIRACULOUSLY healed. (Remember the day playing our weekly basketball game in the small gym at New Knoxville gym? I came down from a leap (yes. I can LEAP I'm not a white man ) twisted my ankle badly, I couldn't get up. The guys all immediately stopped playing, gathered around me and Doug ministered healing to me. In the name of Jesus Christ, he then took me by my forearm pulled and I rose up and walked! I kept playing for a while.) Maybe I wasn't hurt. That's pretty cinematic, isn't it? Maybe I dreamed it. I DO have an active imagination. I can't "I can't PROVE vpw bs'ed us on the whole trip, but..." then again, I can't PROVE Jesus died on the cross either. Awww, come on now, the WHOLE WORLD flooded!??? Red Sea parted? Maybe Moses BS'ed us too. The facts would tend to point to HIM writing on those tablets. He said he was up there ALONE right? Seeing as his was the ONLY account.... You wrote: "I will accept that you saw photographs. I have not seen these photos, nor have I corroborating reports from others who saw them. Therefore, I believe you saw something and were told what that something was. " WordWolf That is fricken INSANE. Here's the scene young HC looks at a photograph, says, "Hey Mrs. Wife of the world's most insideous cult leader... What's this thing that dark skinned guy is handing our Father in The Word? I ask because I can't see what it is even though I'm looking at it." Its really a cheap, third world version of a TIMEX watch... Mrs. Cult leader says. "Oh. Thats the key to the city." "OOOOOOOOhh....." young HC responds. "Really busy day at the Bus terminal, huh?" "Oh NOoooooo that's a train station, son. Those people were allll there to have your Father in the Word heal them. They followed us there. See this picture with the nice man waving? He is the one your mighty father healed of the withered arm that day...." "Wow. Maybe I should forsake all and follow him?" HC coos. "Yes, my child." "OK, here's my wallet!" Thank you WordWolf for illucudating my memories and clarifying what happened for me.

Uh, Oh! Gotta expand my list right away! 16. If I ever say anything about ME, that doesn't in any was say, insinuate, intimate, infer or suggest that the inverse of the statement is in any way shape or form true about YOU. Although no man is an island, when I talk about me, I'm ONLY talking about me. I don't care what it seems like to you. Well. I DO care what it seems like to you. It's just that I'm not talkin about you. talkin' 'bout me. I just don't care what you think. Hmmm.... I do care what you think. Well. Actually I don't.... I do, but I don't. Or. is it in some ways I do care, but then again, MAYbe I don't??? Maybe I don't know what I think? I know I don't know what YOU think. Sometimes I think I MIGHT know what you think. But then I'm not sure. This is because I know I DON'T know what YOU think. I know I don't want you to think I think anything bad about you. At least I think so. Or do I? I thought I knew what I think. Now I'm not sure. Well I WAS sure what I think; before I started thinking about it. MAYBE if I didn't think so hard about what I'm thinking about, I might just be sure what I thought. BUT. If I don't think at all about what I'm thinking about, how can I even be sure that I'm thinking at all? If you don't think about a thought, is it really a thought? If its not a thought, then what is it?

You know? At this point in the discusion, I'm gonna add some bottome line qualifiers that are foundational to everything I think and apply to what I say. 1. I'm absolutely NOT angry. 2. I'm absolutely NOT out to GET or HURT anyone about anything that did or did not happen. 3. I KNOW I don't KNOW everything. 4. My memory, although photographic, is not infallable. 5. I'm human, like any other human. That alone declares that I suffer from the ENTIRE list of human failings. I happily admit to them all. 6. I don't worship, nor have I ever worshipped any man. 7. I'm not, nor have I ever been the type to be star struck. 8. I'm not out to "WIN" anything or prove how "right" I am or was. 9. I know I'm not always right, so if YOU find something I'm not right about, then we AGREE and therefore can use my wrongness as a point on which to build or maybe grow our friendship. 10. IF I think you're wrong, I may tell you what I think about THAT. If I do, I'm doing it in the spirit of my #9. If you get mad at me I'll refer you to #9. 11. I own other miscellaneous stuff I can't think about right now. I'll call it general sanity issues. (This is TIRING!!!) If I can't deal w/ some issues I may "plead the 11th." 12. I do believe that The Bible is our only rule of faith & practice. 13. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life. 14. My Bible says, "Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh, is there anything too hard for me?" I believe that. 15. I reserve the right to apply any or all of the above qualifiers singly or in any combination at any time I choose and fully acknowledge YOUR right to refute or deny my allegence or adherence to them as YOU choose. In the event this occurs I will probably refer you to #9 or #11. I also reserve the right to expand the list if I happen to remember something that is covered by #11. You may feel free to expand the list by your observations but in no way can you eliminate any item from it, its MY list, if you don't like it, make your own. Your projected perceptions of me don't change me,so you can't really change my list. I can't change your list either. --> That being said. In keeping with the topic here; The first thing I absolutely know to be true about VP & Craig's relationship is that it was not really my business. There are aspects of that relationship however that effected many of us either directly or indirectly. All men sin, these two are no exception. (12) ... if MY sins are cast as far from me as the east is from the rest and GOD remembers them no more, is that not also true of them? I wholeheartedly agree that without a thorough study of history, we may be destined to repeat it. There is a measure of validity in reviewing this stuff. I also believe that the review should be base in certain principles of reality, fully acknowledging that individual perceptions in many ways may shape "reality" for an individual. When VPW said we should use the Word of God as our only rule of faith and practice. I believed that. "Read it for yourself." He said. I said, "OK I will. I think that's a good idea." When I saw him drunk at the HQ staff Christmas party in 1978. I said, "No I won't do that. I don't think that's a good idea." Please get the point. I really don't want to make another long list. I saw VP do some things I felt were right so I "followed" him, where I felt he was wrong. I didn't. Further, I did the same with every other authority figure in my life. Starting with my "father in this LIFE," my own Dad. He drank a LOT. I didn't like how he looked, smelled and acted when he drank so I determined in myself, "No. I won't do that." My Dad also, while being a drunken .... bastard at times to my Mom was the most faithful workman I've ever seen or heard of; 33 years with the same company. As far as I knew (& it was reported to me by his friends and management) he NEVER missed a single day of work being drunk. Never even late. When I grew to driving age, my transportation (and teenage FREEDOM) was predicated upon my taking him to and from work. If I did not show up in time to get him to work on time he'd leave without me. If I made him wait, even ONE step from his regular routine, next time I wanted the car, the answer was NO. He wanted to do EXACTLY the same thing as he would if I wasn't there, his car sat faithfully in a certain area of the parking lot. He said, "I usually look for my car when I'm about right over there; when I look up to see my car, it BETTER be there." I watched him drag his hung over foot out of bed, get his act together and get to work on time many times. He didn't get drunk every day, he was always a good father to me although he & my Mom didn't get along enough to live together. In all of that he NEVER had a performance related accident in his entire 33 years. I trust you're noticing that the same time I'm speaking of driving my Dad to & from work was roughly the time I was getting involved w/TWI. I learned to reconcile my father's faults with his qualities and live with both. I accepted his qualities and rejected his faults. The first time I applied to the Way Corps, the ninth, I got rejected. My Twig Leader (we weren't afraid to call people leaders then) and another great friend from my graduating class in high school did get accepted. There was a hand written note on the form letter from VPW. It said, "You need maturity and stability, perhaps a year as a W.O.W. would help." What? Didn't he KNOW who I AM??? I was this hotshot, "Mr. Everything" multi-award winning high school student. Everybody told me I was all that & a bag of chips and HE said I need MATURITY????!!!!! Stability!!!!! I was 19 years OLD!!! (Barely. For about 3 months.) I was like, you can take your Way Corps and shove it. Nonetheless, they left & I stayed home & took over the Twig. The next year, I went WOW in PGH and lived w/a hotshot Interim 8th Corps, "B". That was an experience. I spent a good part of that year in a quiet slow burn because when I lived w, B I saw that what everybody saw as this dynamic , larger than life leader, was NOT "all that" when you saw the REST of her life. Good GOD! She was CORPS! She had faults! I distinctly remember one branch meeting where one of the other WOW family coordinators came up to me & hugged me firmly on my shoulder. He said, "You are SOOO LUCKY to live w/ B. She is GREAT!" I forced a smile, nodded & thought, "Yeah right, If you saw her like I do you wouldn't think she's so great." Right then the thought hit me, "If YOU saw her like HE does maybe you would..." I changed my attitude about B on the spot. We became close. I developed a very healthy respect and admiration for her that remains to this day. The things I saw as faults were actually indearing parts of her personality. I respected the way she could appear goofy & even dizzy & ditzy at home and be a dynamic leader, teacher and healer of hearts as the situation demanded. She was just like my Dad. That year I got accepted to the 10th Corps but didn't get my initial tuition deposit in on time (Mr. "All That." ). Later that year I was invited to spend my apprentice 11th Corps year on staff at HQ. I saw qualities and faults in lots of leaders @ HQ as I sure people saw the same in me. It was in many wanys no different than my Dad. Not to bore you with more stories, but I've seen, read and heard of the same in leaders in most every sphere of influence on this planet. From family to government, to media. Actors, athletes, businessmen & women. NO LEADER, MYSELF INCLUDED, IS THE MAN OR WOMAN YOU SEE ON STAGE. When you see them, they are "ON" there are times when the are equally OFF. OUR task and responsibility before God is to "prove all things, hold fast to the good." I brought my own sense of right & wrong TO my association W/ TWI, VP and LCM. That includes the concept the every man is responsible to God for their own actions. I wasn't "DUPED" in to working w/TWI I read my Bible and compared their words and actions to IT. I simply rejected anything I felt didn't match up to the Word. At one time I felt there was more word there than not. More Word centered actions, or perhaps ENOUGH for me. But then my PERCEPTIONS shaped that reality, right? This is PRECISELY wahy we all need a savior. This is why we must accept the Bible and God's words as a coherent set of rules for practicle application in life. I'm definately not excusing VP or LCM for their actions. I'm just not excusing any of you or MYSELF for yours or mine. My Bible still says that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose." IF your TWI experiences have not or ARE not working together for GOOD in your live YOU either do NOT love God or you are not called according to His purpose. "I didn't write the book people." I'm PERCEIVING that perhaps there are people in this EX-WAY community that fall into each of the three categories I mentioned above. You must, if you haven't yet, take the time to focus on WHY I allowed, or what was it ABOUT me that caused me to be susceptable???? You say VP was all of these horribly negative things to you. OK. I accept that. But. What was it about YOU that you apparently didn't know it was wrong to .... a married man? A minister? You must love yourself enough to ask yourself the hard questions. To those of you who ask what I've been up to all these years? Asking myself those hard questions has been part of it. What is it ABOUT ME that caused me to marry the same BITCH (in two different bodies) TWICE. Didn't I see, (with my indepth spiritual perception and awareness) that she (twice) was using me? Maybe they weren't a bitch. maybe I'm the jerk they say I am? I've answered those questions about MYSELF. My TWI experiences ALL of them have or are still working together for good in my life. I learned how to write by doing my Corps research paper, for one thing. gotta go. Bye. God Bless you. You REALLY ARE God's best.

' ' ' ' '' sorry that happened Exc... '' ' ' '