HCW

Scout; That's what I'm talking about! You clearly pointed out that S. Who better to be a focal point in Rochelle's network than ME and others who were there with her. I literrally helped her hold her head together and made sure the FIRST stretcher th e leave the scene had she on it. She was my FRIEND dammit! She nearly missed having her HEAD severed. People who proported themselves to be at the EPICENTER of the wave of almight GOD's Word moving over the whole inhabited world. Took he away from those who could have been the MOST help to her. She sat right next to me every Wednesday night at Corps night for a year, She was in my TWIG at LEAD 104 (GRRrr......) On that week in the wilderness Kevin & Donnie Smith ^ the rest of the LEAD staff poured their BEST in to us. I will NEVER forget how indignant Donnie was when he told us everthing just short of .... THEM who say you're weak, you don't desrve to be Way Corps. "I Don't give ONE DAMN what they say," said Donnie. "You shouldn't either. Why? Repeat after me: with feeling now... "My arms and my legs are like STEEL, My hands are like VICE GRIPS, My fet are like hind's feet, And my mind is like CHRIST'S I can do ALL THINGS!!! LEAD 104!!!!!!! LOUDER! LEAD 104!!!!!!! LOUDER!!!!! LEAD 104!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!! LEAD 104!!!!!!! Ok. Now GROWL.... GRRRRrrrrrrrr......... ################################## Group think isn't always a bad thing. The New England Partiots just "GROUP THINKed" themselves to the pinnacle of professional sports. They are on their way to going down in History as the best TEAM in professional sports.

Skyrider What I'm saying is that mutual thinking "happens to be" individual people who think what they think on their own. Group think is where ONE person influences other people to think like him. The difference is virtually indicernable when one looks at a group of people. It is only upon deeper scrutiny of the group that one can discern the difference. For example; In a movie theatre, the group mutually (although, exclusively on their own decided to go to that movie at that time on that day.) that is mutual thinking. Group think in the same situation would be when ONE person says LET us ALL go to the movie of my choice, this day at this time. Everyone who goes is participating in "Group Think." It may seem like splitting hairs but I see this as the crux of the argument. "TWI good thing that went bad vs Evil thing that used some "good" to entice & enlist followers." The argument persists because even in Group Think there are people who say, "Hey, I was ALREADY wanting to see that flick. I have time on MY calendar that day. It would be fun to see it with a group!" No danger, no harm in that. Right? Group think is not necessarily, inherently evil or dangerous. It is the intention and purposes of the ONE that makes it a danger, especially with respect to WHERE the ONE leads the followers. Eg: Jim Jones says says, "Hey gang! I think today YOU all should drink some cherry Kool-Aid. Thirsty? BTW its laced with enough poison "to choke a horse." No matter that it would certainly choke YOU all to death. That's OK!!!!! cause GOD will certainly welcome you to heaven and reward you richly for GIVING all you have in your service to his highest!" The GROUP thinks they are serving God because HE, Jones, said so. The GROUP thinks they are giving their utmost in service to His highest when they drink POISON. Even though their mommy taught them as a youth they shouldn't drink nasty stuff. They actually ARE serving his highest, except "oopsie," for them HIS highest was Jim Jones' lowest. Am I more clear now? I hope so.

May I explain myself further? I think it bears discussion in light of what happened on this thread. Well, it is "my" thread, right? At least its my (debatable point) story. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Also. "A soft answer turns away wrath and greivious words stir up anger." At the time I wrore my thing about mutual thinking I was thinking about group think. I thought I saw it happening here on GS when a certain ONE was bheaving a certain way. Way back on page 2 satori001, satori's first rant was focused on the BOT; we mutually could agree they are the bad guy here. Some who mutually thought the same thing said, like, "Yeah, the BAStards!" The satori's focus turned to Oldie. "...so your real point is that you are missing the point." No. THAT was SATORI's point ABOUT Oldie's point. Satori made his point personal to Oldie with his use of YOUR and YOU, at oldie. His words were grievious by their nature, to any and all who viewed them. Perhaps had satori001 said, "I think YOU are full of sh@t, Oldie!" That, although heated would have been less greievious, as every ONE is EQUALLY entitled to HIS ONE opinion. In MY opinion that would have been the MOST honest thing to say, satori001, regarding YOUR opinion of what Oldie said. Then, another salvo was fired, same source same target: "...you may be incapable of understanding..." A judgement ABOUT something the shooter definately is INCAPABLE of knowing about the target. I felt that was TELLING about the shooter. The as long as Oldie at least SEEMED to line up with what the shooter thought, shooter was OK/ Oldie. (see pg 3) Also:

Thanks House. That brings up a really good point, I think. When I first read your "mutual thinking" comment, my mind, although I know I read MUTUAL, my mind said, "Group Think" which we know is a term describing cult behavior. I was simply "drawn away of my own thoughs, enticed by what I was thinking. In so doing I supplanted your meaning for my own even though I know I acknowledged, mutual. I even thought as I was reading it... "mutual thinking..Hmmmmm, interesting, then went off my own way. Mutual thinking is when a group, each individual, on his own, of his own accord, thinks the same thing or the way others think, on their own, of their own accord. It is the similar thinking that both creates and then binds the group, and can even define the group. "Group Think" is a term. It describes how, usually ONE individual person thinks something then other people, each as individuals think what the ONE thinks BECAUSE the one thinks it, regardless of what the individual actually thinks. The individual CHANGES what they, on their own, of their own accord think; they change their thinking to what the ONE thinks. It is NOT the thinking that creates and binds the group, it is the ONE who creates a group of FOLLOWERS. In mutual thinking the group all moves in a similar direction together. In Group think the group moves together. The difference is that in "Group think" the group follows the ONE, the group is NOT part of the ONE the group, as one in unison, FOLLOWS the ONE. The one becomes a defacto LEADER; simply by virtue of the fact that a group follows behind. Mutual thinking involves an actual group, one group. "Group think is actually at least TWO "groups" the ONE (leader) and the GROUP (followers). Those two or more eventually grow into classes. The group collectively, not mutually (there's a difference) supports the leader class who become the "haves" and the follower class, the "have-nots." They have not because give what they have to "leadership." Group think is not limited to religious cults, although religion is among the EASIEST things in the world to "CULTify."

Sealed; Did she ever show you her head? I doubt that she ever got the proper treatment. I didn't go to the hospital on the day of. I actually thought I wasn't hurt at all, only banged up with a few cuts, not much blood. Even if I had, from what I know of emergency room triage, they never would have x-rayed my spine, checked my posture, etc. I would have left there even more convinved I was OK. Rochelle's overt injuries were SO extreme that she was certainly rushed directly into treatment at the emergency room she went to. Medical Dr.s would have prescribed her pain pills, very strong ones at that because even a monkey would have assumed she was going to be dealing with severe pain. Based on what I saw on my x-rays after having them analyzed by a chiropractor, I'm 100% certain that her x-rays demanded the same at least thrice-weekly adjustments I was getting. Therefore, she required BOTH Medical and Chiropractic. NOT ONE Way official EVER suggested, encouraged or was in any way proactive towards me getting my treatment. Honestly, the best they ever did was tolerate, and not all of them graciously, the FACT that I was ALREADY OK'ed to get treatment by the time I came to their campus.

The way they handled us was they separated us. It was really upsetting that we never got to "debrief" on thw whole thing. They lined the driveway to welcome us, made an announcement at lunch, then Craig flew back home. The block changed, then I was off to Camp Gunnison. I got along with Tom Jenkinson pretty well there, I felt because he was older he was a little wiser than most of the Corps Coordinators. He never gave me any trouble about my physical limitations after it surfaced that I was, in fact injured. Looking back, I and all of us required at least some counseling. After my interim year, when it took me 8 months of the year to convince the region coordinator RB that my WOW brother really had emotional problems. The fact that TWI had absolutely no provisions for people who had psychological needs. The only thing I ever knew of even after the accident was Dottie Moynihan having, I think, taken some classes towards some degree or certification in psychology. Noone ever sat with me and dug into my head about it like, "Are you OK, I mean really." My chiropractor in Gunnison took care of me emotionally. My injury was so severe that I started out seeing him every other day, then as I progressed it went down to three times per week. He really did take care of me as if I were his own son. Looking back I think I was in some major denial. I'm from Western PA, where pro football players are grown like crops. I always kid people and say that when baby boys are born in Western PA Dr. hand the baby a football and Dads hand out tickets to his first game. Point being we're taught, "winners play through the pain." I "played through it." I "never" would have gone to seek any kind of medical attention and I barely knew what a chiropractor was back then. My friend Joe poked me in the hip, pulled me aside and got in my face about, "You need a chiropractor, man..." Dr. Coblenz (sp?) told me that in a few months the condition of my spine would have degenerated the disks in my back so badly that my only option would have been surgery to fuse my spine. Thank God for them both. I had a car so I just left class or whatever and went to my appointments, I carried out the Dr.'s instructions to the letter. I was given leadership roles in the Corps, so I felt that LEAD 104 (GRRRRrrrr..) had taken whatever monkey off my back. I had trouble at the Indiana Campus with a few people telling Bob M. that I was faking my injuries to get out of work, specifically because someone had asked me to help carry chairs & tables when we had Chapel setup, I was always allowed to sit in a chair during meetings where the setup called for floor seating. Maybe some were jealous? Finally I was back at Emporia, the year was almost over & I was having tuition problems. They began cracking down on people who were in residence after their tuition ran out and policy became the when your money ran out you were sent LOA. I always thought it was kinda reasonable that you couldn't expect to go to college for free. That made it all the more shocking when I got called to JAL's office. I was shocked that he told me I was going LOA, my $$$ was current at the time. Since they were cracking down, I asked him why I was being sent LOA when everything was going so well for me, He said, "We'll give you a refunD. If you know JAL he always sort over enunciated t's and d's at the end of a wor-D. I honestly felt that my life was on the line if I left Emporia. I could just feel it. I'll never forget my hand feeling like it weighed 100lbs as I lifted it to knock on the door of the Trustee Apartment. My good friend January's smiling face when she opened the door wa equally unforgettable. Dean Don told me about Rochelle's suicide after I had told him why I had come to see him. He told me that she and Kevin W. had been caught having sex and they had both been dismissed from the Corps. He went on about how Kevin had told her he loved her in order to get her to sex him and that she was OK to leave with him because she thought they were in love. He said that after they left Kevin told her something to the effect of, "Whoa, hold your horses," when she talked about getting married and starting a life together. He said that Kevin's coming clean about lying to her to get in her pants had devastated her. He left her & she committe suicide and was found dead in a motel. I was so devastated that I didn't really notice there were holes in the story. I had thought she was found in a motel in Emporia, all these years until someone told me the rest of her story. I was so mad & hurt all at the same time. I knew Kevin well, we all sat together on Corps Nights. Alphabetical order, Waj, Wal, Web, . I never thought Kevin was the type to do something like that, but hey, guys can be dogs, you know. I don't remember ever speaking to him about it though, to this day. As it turns out, apparently Kevin wasn't the bad guy he was made out to be. When they were thrown out, she had been told to go live with her brother Al in CT. Rochelle was distraught and had agreed to drop kevin off at the limb of Indiana. He said she was very depressed and the limb leaders didn't want her around. They let her stay 2 or 3 days and told her to go. This was the same limb leader that had recommended that I not be allowed to go back in residence for the final 11th Corps year. It was his recommendation that helped put me on the "weak" list that put me on LEAD 104 (Grrrr...) He knew she was depressed after being thrown out of the Corps and he sent her out to drive across the country ALONE. He could have and SHOULD called her brother to come get her. He could have sent a Corps person with her even and given them a ticket back to Indy. Iknew this guy didn't give one damn about people when he got mad at me my interin year. I was sent to his state as a WOW family coordinator. For the first part of the year my WOW family was, as he said at our first WOW meeting, the hottest WOWs in the Region. When my family was producing numbers that made him look good, I was cool with him. When we weren't pulling the numbers I became weak, a poor leader. My guys had some real psychological issues, I wen to him for help with them. He did nothing but write me one of the most devastating letters I've ever received in my life. John Lynn had been calling people to meet withhim at Corps week after our interim year. He told me of that my LC had given me the thumbs down on returning in residence but he had other info that conflicted the LC. I told him that the LC didn't know me & the others did. He recommended I may want to take another year, blah, blah, blah. He told Rochelle the same thing. Rochelle was adamant about staying w/ her Corps group, I was also. Rochelle packed her whole life into the trunk of her car, and headed from Indiana towards CT. She was in a lot of pain in her neck from her LEAD injuries. She made it as far as Columbus, Ohio pulled into a HOJO around 4 or 5 pm and took all of her pain pills she had been saving that evening. They found her dead in the bathroom the next morning. She DID deserve better. We all did. I didn't know how people weren't told about the accident I was buried under it. I saw a Chiropractor three tomes per week for a long time, I don't know what type of follow-up treatment she got. Whatever it was she didn't get enough.

WordWolf While it appeared like I had been run off I was actually in my basement combing throught my boxes trying to find my photo album that has pictures from LEAD 104. I have a nice picture of Rochelle I wanted to post with the follow up. I couldn't find them... I did, however find the negatives & had a reprint of it made. If somebody has a space on a website, I'll send it to you you can put it up and link to it from the thread. Or if anybody can tell me another way to get it on the thread....

You guys beat me to it! ...the same way I did when I didn't repond to you Satori001.

Donnie & Kevin Smith grew up as outdoorsy types. I'm not sure if they grew up on a farm but they were very qualified to run LEAD. Somebody had the skills to build the trailer. It was well built and sturdy. Nobody took the time to carefully pack the trailer load. We were only "drivin' down the road a piece." It is was highly likely that, when the trailer hit the ground after the wind assisted hop to the left when we came back onto the road, the load (about 800lbs = 30 backpacks/suitcase 2 about 25lbs each. Mine was 40lbs, I weighed it before we left. I had "extra" state of the art gear, extra pair of padded climbing pants, military issue compass, special forces survival knife [which I wore on my belt for the trip] a waterproof flashlight, manganese fintstone {for starting fires] PLUS the extra outfit I wore at the last campfire everbody "hated" on me about } The load probably shifted on impact throwing the trailer to the left causing the unexpected fishtailing.

It seems to me like I was cool with satori001 until I made a statement to the effect that I didn't blame Kevin Smith for the wreck. Prior to that there was just George who wanted me to "get on with it." I could get with the fact that all he wanted then was to hear the story. SO I told him to shut up the same way I would tell a buddy over a beer. He went off to argue on another thread in respect. I saw that as a respectable act. He didn't come back to argue until it was clear that the story was winding down. He fired a salvo... cool. It was a blast, but a respectFULL, respectABLE one. I've known this story for 23 YEARS, I knew telling it here would cause outrage. When it started coming up I was prepared for it. I even set the stage for it... The arguing started when Oldie commended all who attended and endured LEAD (on page 2). The first shot was satori. How can one say he is not being personal when he uses the PERSONAL pronoun, in 2nd person, YOU?? If one intends NOT for his words to be taken PERSONALLY he must use 3rd person pronouns (get it?). YOU, is personal, by definition. On cannot argue it away by saying something like, "because I didn't know it was a lie, that makes it NOT a lie." No, That statement, by definition, makes one IGNORANT. Intentionally making an untrue statement makes one a liar. Evidently one believes that the operative word "intentional" carries the power and weight of truth. No, it doesn't. Perhaps it would be more respectABLE for one to say, "I'm sorry to disparage you with what I thought was true. I was wrong." ...is an insult. It is a judgement that carries Romans 2:1 "consequences" for lack of a better word. On cannot judge the capablities of another, apparently because another does not agree with HIM. Another's opinion is as valid as any other opinion... Opinions are like... well we all have an opinion at times. MY, educated, opinion, as a witness, is that even if we had brand new, all state of the art equipment; we STILL would have chosen to take the shiny new pickup with the state of the art trailer, over the custom, air-conditioned motorcoach. WE CHOSE to take the pickup, there was a perfectly fine bus available. We rode the BUS to the airport; They didn't buy, or rent one... we used the one they already had. Besides, a factory manufactured trailer most likely would have been heavier, which would have caused it, under the same factors to whip up & over at a slightly different down angle. The heavier trailer, by the laws of physics would create an exponentially higher amount of force and speed, which would mutliply the force of impact and.... The heavier trailer probably would have hit the people who were not thrown from the bed and squashed them like bugs, killing them instantly before bouncing onto whomever was in its path. Hmmm.... 900lbs x 45mph = X amounf of force hitting a 125lb girl or 165lb guy.... no contest. Even though on that day the thought of blaming Kevin never crossed my mind, I've grown to understand why. I'm reminded of it everytime I look into the eye of one of my childern. When they do something wrong and I know they know they know better, and they know I know they know better; they look me right in the eye, like I know they know they know better... and at that moment, we both know all of that right then, IN the MOMENT all of life freezes for an instant. I say "WHY?????? Did you DOOOO that???????? They say, "I dun-no?" (parents??? familiar???) He looked at me, our eyes locked... In A MOMENT ! I saw the same look on his face, in his eyes, that I see in my children today. I'm sure I had the same look on my face, eyes as he. Romans 7 v:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Blame anybody you want. I was there.

I do intend to follow up on Rochelle, and I will.

anybout? anyone. I can do a few things well, typing isn't one of them.... santori

I have been in pain, each and every day since the ACCIDENT at LEAD 104 (GRRRRrrrr.....). There was a period of time when the pain was so great, each and every day, all day long, all night long. while I ate, played, did whatever. It was so LOUD that I could hardly hear my own thoughts. My chiropractor gave me a transcutaneous, electrical, nerve stimulator, (TENS) unit, which at times I had to adjust to its highest setting to get relief. The relief from the TENS unit was lessened by the irritating greif from constant, incessant questions like, "Why you wearing a PAGER?" Its not a pager. It LOOKs like a pager ??? Ok. But its not. Well what IS it? It a TENS unit. What's that? And so on, on , on , on , and on. The pain felt better than that. I went to work for the same BOT that a certain one has made it his "mission in life" in this thread to make sure all of us who already know what bastards they were; he wants to make sure we know that. ESPECIALLY so, seeing as the thread itself stands, the evidence in it from a legal witness, the the events spoken of... again the thread shows undeniable information; so they cannot say, "Oh yes we DO care for God's people." Next time somebody says that TWI is SOOO wonderful. You can say, "Ok, what about Rochelle?" Then watch the quizzical look on their face. If you ask Rosalie. She will most likely frown first then give you s surapy sweet, positively spun answer thar endears you to HER, Rosalie, not her, Rochelle. I reread the thread my self over the past day or so. I was considered cool with satori001 until I made a statement to this effect: I don't blame Kevin Smith for what he did that day, NONE of it. Through all of the years of pain, someone who was a GS adversary of mine, on the recieving end of some very terse words from me while on my virgin tour of these waters, said something to the effect of: If anybout would have place to point fingers about the LEAD accident it would be HCW, and HE didn't. That spoke to me concerning the character of that individual. I have my own reasons for sharing this, my story, with all of you. One of the primary and simplest of which is that I wanted you to know. There are other reasons also.

Of course. I was never mad at you. Were you mad at me?

House; I wasn't talking about what you mentioned when concerning the "majority think" thing I was thinking of the dangerous variety. I cathc your drift now.

ChasUFarley, I think satori is really trying to goad me into a response to his Ok. I'll respond. Well, if satori001 , who is NOT paranoid, thinks I might be being coached them it MUST be so. He's right. I might be being coached. He's not paranoid, he just "wonders" paranoid type things. You see. I'm not perceptive enough to see things on my own. Therefore it MUST be that I'm being coached, it only MIGHT be that the coaching is coming from a GreaseSpotter, MAYBE two. Since he said what HE thinks.... I think that was his was of saying that I was right about what I said about him. Without really saying HC, you were right about me. You see, I couldn't possibly be right without his acknowledgement of the same. Then if he doesn't actually SAY I was right he can later say, No, I never said you're right. ANd he'd be right because he didn't actually say I was right. He just indicated that I might be right IF sombody coached me rightly. OK? AND SINCE I'm right about what I said about him, the only possible way for me to be right is that I MIGHT be coached by somebody else (maybe two somebodies), GS'ers who know him enough to be right about him. He hasn't "knighted" me as perceptive yet, so I can't be perceptive. Satori001 is the perceptive one here at GS. Percieve my drift? If you do, maybe satori will declare YOU to be perceptive, like he recently did waterbuffalo.

See page 8 for a brief overview of what came of Rochelle.

Keep talking satori. You are lying. As I said before, you have lost whatever credibility you had built. Now you lie and stoop even lower. 1. I didn't call out the "majority think" term... houseisarockin did. 2. Everyone else here seems to understand I'm telling my story about what happened to ME at LEAD 104. My story, dedicated to and told for Rochelle. You're "....ing on" that after having already stomped on her grave and desecrated her memory. You don't understand what bum-rush means, how can you possibly comprehend a figure of speech. Uh, oh. There I go manifesting the ineffable greatness of being a "livin' TWI time-capsule" again. Finally. As soon as I DO, do what you suggest you SLAM me. This is precisely that pattern that the cults use to gain control of people's minds. I can respect George. He labels himself "Curmudgeon" makes overtly smarta$$ remearks and has the decency to avoid this type of discourse in the name of respect. He's also smart enough to see the story winding down and asks pointed questions that MAKE SENSE. I can respect that AND him for doing that. How can I respect stuff like this? What? What in the world does THAT mean? The "threshold of sensitivty to change." THAT makes SENSE??? Maybe in satoriWorld, but not on earth. Sounds, to me, like "Prevailing in the prevailing world of prevailingness." If YOU can explain that "threshold" thing, I MAY decide to adress your other questions. Probably not though. WHy should I talk to you when you LIE, and twist the words of others, apparently to appear as you have some sort of upperhand and "moral highground." Wanted to point this out. It was worth being a little late for my lunch thing.

Mark, This is so complex. I keep bouncing back & forth between all of the above and maybe, just the wind. When I settle on "just the wind." I feel like naww its more than that, definitely, more than just that. There is some more of the rest of the story that I wasn't planning on writing about because it wasn't the accident, but part of the LEAD session prior to it. I was thinking, "Nobody wants to hear me ramble on with platitudes about this , that & the other thing leading up to the accident." Now I'm thinking I'm not gonna write about the whole session but there were a couple of things that I've wondered if they were specifically related to the accident, because they shaped decsions that drove other decisions.... Plus its kinda hard to answer your question with going into it at least a little. Don't have a lot of time now, maybe later... For now. I don't believe that harsh trustee mandates or irresponsible policies, or lack of caring about people at the leadership level had much if anything to do with the accident. The LEAD staff was all over us about safaty concerns. We were like "Yeah right." We even got in trouble one day on a climb because we didn't stay in this cave like we were told. Rochelle was on the climb and started a rockslide by throwing a big rock down that came loose while she was going up. All things considered, it seems to me like everthing funneled down to a couple of decisions that I feel were isolated to what was happening out there in New Mexico that day. The reason I say that is that "all of the above" in terms of bad TWI issues were in existence, alive & well that day. They DID have a bus available that could transport all of the people. They could have just as easily followed behind the bus with the luggage as the 2nd truck followed our truck that wrecked. Had they decided to do so. I think the decision to take the truck was more germain to the accident than the decision to do my evaluation on the road. They decided to take the trucks because it would give Kevin & I some privacy to talk about the evaluation. We had to do the evaluation on the road because I got sick and almost died of hypothermia the night before. We were gonna do the evaluation the night before we left because we decided to "wait til tomorrow" since it was getting late after Kevin finished with the extra time on the other evaluation. We did talk a little about my eval during the duo but decided to do it later when we both were fresher because Kevin had some "stuff to talk to me about." I think some of the "stuff" was related to that we had to turn around and come right back down from our hike up Mt. Sunset. We had to turn around because I got sick and extremely weak on the hike up. Donnie decided that they had to get me out of the 9000ft altitude immediately because I might not have survived the cold of the night. Symptoms of hypothermia were at their onset. That day was an adventure. Those decisions, I feel, were local to us, having "nothing" to do w/ the ministry as a whole. Gotta go, tune in later....

Yes Vickles. As much as I may deny it, or understand the contrary, and appreciate your continued efforts to nurture me beyond it.... I have to admit that at least on some level, maybe even only a little bit; I DO feel responsible, myself, not only for the crash, but for my friend's death too. How rediculous is it for ME to feel in any way responsible for Rochelle's death? I wasn't there with her. I couldn't do my part to protect her, minister to her, or help her pull her mind back. They intentionally kept me away from her the same as they locked "the spiritually weak, injured LEAD 104 folks away at the Indiana Campus. They sent them there to heal. They kept them away from the people there while "in the other room" they taught, "The touch of a faithful ambassador is health." Crap like that makes it SOOOOO easy for "those" to say there never was, is not now, nor ever will be ANYTHING good about TWI. How can we BLAME them for their opinions? We can't. I certainly can't and DON'T. Anyways Vickles; it has been a long and sometimes continuous fight for me to shake my feelings of responsibility. It DID tear away at the edges of my sanity. I learned that day that few things feel worse than seeing people you care about hurting and helpless. It is as if it is the exact opposite of, "Beloved I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health." Like, "It hurts me more than all things when I see you suffering and unhealthy." I really opened up and let it all hang out here in this thread. I'm not surprised too much that you percieved little cracks where that personal responsibility for this thing seeped outta me. Trust me though, I have it well contained and surrounded by God's word in my life - - which is the ONLY true and COMPLETE healer. Like this; "you have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this thing might be put away from among you..." I'd rather mourn. It hit me the other day when I was in my 7yr old son's face... "DING!" The reason God placed the ability for us to feel bad is so that the bad feelings, cause us to deter our path, derail us, if you will :)--> from going back to the thing or behavior that hurt us. Its SOO simple and was there all the time. As the father of five children I've gone through the "don't touch that, it's hot" scenario five time with five different baby personalities. Sean (now 7), my "hardheaded one." He HAD to touch it anyway, no matter how much I, his mom, or the two older siblings warned him. After pulling his hand away, moving the hot thing out of his reach, doing "everything"...even letting him feel the heat from a safe distance.... It wasn't until, I heard "Ooooowwwww !!!!" that he stopped reaching for it. So Vickles; I don't feel bad about fellin' bad. its not gonna kill me, it motivates me. Thanks for the love anyway, keep it comin baby!

Yeah house. ... But don't people see that the "majority think" they subscribe to here is just as cultlike as the "group think" they denouce aobut TWI? ....Just as dangerous? AT LEAST as dangerous as the handling of "the evaluation" sheet? The result of the majority think can lead to the same result - - a CRASH that injures many? I don't get why people who claim to be soo passionately against cult like behavior fall so easily back into the same behavior. Why don't they see that? "You can change the label of the jab , but it don't change the PICK-les on the inside." Oh yeah man. Thanks for pointing it out, I DO see how important this thread is. I'm amazed it's still going. I give credenc to its importance by the amount of time I've put into it the past few days. I trust you realize that Kevin, as far as I know never once shirked any responsibility for his part in the crash. I was told it haunted him for years. I posted MY opinion, which is, as directly as I can put it, I NEVER HAVE SPENT AN INSTANT BLAMING KEVIN. Nor will I EVER. It MAY be, and its becoming increasingly evident to me, that "you had to be there" to understand that thinking. Like a joke, perfect for that one moment in time when it was a truly gut splitting experience, loses its effect when even the best deliverer relates it to someone else. I'm thinking "you had to BE there" or have "been there" in other "there's" in your own life to "Gnosko" understand that concept. (???) I'm also thinking it falls into the category of God's wisdom being "foolishness" to man's wisdom.

Thanks again for the kind words. I appreciate the respect shown by wanting the story to be told uninterrupted, but honestly... I "knew the job was dangerous when I took it" (catch THAT reference soul mates ) In other words, I knew to forum concept, the lay of the land, so to speak, and am quickly gaining insight to the specific nature of GS. Thanks again for any & all Help in that regard. I really don't mind the detours, especially when it seems that there is some sincerity down the rabbit trails. We can always jump back on track. If I or anyone desires the story in one piece, I or they can put forth the effort necessary to edit out the stuff they don't want. I did feel it necessary to bum-rush as I did in my prior post. I hope my reasoning was obvious, as it was to Catcup. (Thanks honey, validation feels good and it helps.) I'm not gonna be run off. "I aint afraid a no ghosts." I feel I MUST submit to the nature of the beast if I'm gonna throw in my two cents, I MUST be willing to accept anyone throwing theirs. I really don't mind derailing and answering questions (on topic or related ones would be best, I think).

...yes sintorinius... There was the experience, ahhh the enterprise, Wierwille's EVIL (I want ONE MILlion DOOOLLARs, heh, heh, heh :P--> ) starship enterprise. (Beam me UP Scotty! - - You Do know "Scotty" right?) Such wisdom, such lofty insight... ALL this from a guy who gets offended when presented with the very idea of reading the Bible. AND, the greatly exaulted wise one, so wise is he that he says his wisdom is not wide enough, no, not so high as to be able to fathom what a "bum-rush" is. That baby picture post was disgusting sintori. Whatever respect I was building for you is now history. What happened to Rochelle is posted on this thread. You're so smart, find it.... Here's an idea, READ the THREAD. (Oh boy, NOW I guess you WON'T find what happened to Rochelle, nor will your read it because I clubbed you over the head with the idea "Way Love" style. You give up your power so easily.... Sorry to rob you of the answers you seek, --> couldn't help myself. Its that pesky "Borg Collective," group mind thing raising its ugly head - - AGAIN. Dammit. I can't go beyond what "Dr. Evil" taught me... habits you know. Your ignorant question stands as evidence you don't care enough to have even read the thread. All you apparently want to do is LEAD the bum-rush. BTW; the cult you joined? You didn't join a cult, you are obviously trying to be the cult LEADer. My, how "Martindalesque" of you. Didn't you mean weak-minded GREASESPOTS??? I guess that wasn't an insult either... Regardless, what it DOES do is expose your hypocracy and your not so subtle desire to attack and subtly solicit other bums to your attack cult, while you desire to exault your own throne.... You illustrate Romans 2:1 Its NOT HC-M, its HC W "bucko." You can call me HC since your attention span doesn't seem to go past two letters. BTW. I caught your "baby" reference. Notice its gone? How can you say you are "pro all ex-TWI'ers" and then desecrate the MEMORY of one who DIED; by posting that hideously disgusting image here, on a thread DEDICATED to her? _____________________________ "Help" to understand your POV? I don't need no stinking "HELP" to UNDERSTAND (his ways are to high for me!) your P.O.V. You are the poster boy for what I was talking about. Your lust to express YOUr POV has blinded you to the fact that that picture of the baby you posted ALSO disrepects the CHILD in the picture. You didn't care, as long as the picture served YOUR purpose. Hey! Isn't that what you say TWI "leadership" did? Does? Always WILL do??? I see you quite clearly and your POV stinks. OK. Ok, why then didn't you say the 10th Corps GIRL RAPE VICTIM was "responsible, at fault" for her rape? She didn't get out of the truck and go with her partner equally as much as her partner left her in the truck when he went. Right? Isn't the rapist in HER story playing a similar role as the WIND in mine & Kevin's? The trucker raped her, the wind "raped" the trailer." Why don't you "not" point any fingers" at her in the same way you DIDN'T "point the finger" at KEVIN? Huh? Kevin was just a WC guy too, same as she was WC girl. Kevin was doing what he was told by the "Dr. Evil enterprise," same as she. You bum-rush Kevin but simply say of her, "No, a truck driver did it, kidnapping his female passenger...." I echo what I said of Kevin, applying it to her. It wasn't HER fault. I'm sure you AGREE w/ me on that, but you call ME inconsistent. What happened to Rochelle? She had her grave and memory stomped on by YOU and the likes of you. Yes. I WILL speak for MY dear friend Rochelle, God DAMN the fact that she can't speak for herself. Were she alive she would surely say, "Get OFF my thread. You have no RIGHT to even mention the name Rochelle."

This thread is not about determining the goodness of twi. someone respectfully asked you to go argue on another thread. Even started the thread for you. You're an a$$ for disrespecting the fact that this thread was dedicated to the lost LIFE of a victim....

It was entirely possible that the gusty wind could have caused about the same thing to happen, regardless. It wasn't "driver distraction" that moved the truck over it was blam! A wall of wind hit the truck so hard it rocked side to side on the suspension. The steering wheel shook with both of Kevin's hands on it. I've had than happen to me on gusty, windy days out in the country many times, even while driving my 'Z.' I've had "normal" wind pick me up on my motorcycle and drop me a few feet later. No I'm NOT trying to excuse Kevin. We shouldn't have put the paper up on the steering wheel, period. It did contribute to the crash but it was not the primary mitigating factor. Yes he could have been a little less distracted, because he did take his eyes off the road for a second. I'm honestly not sure that not doing the paper thing, in and of itself, would have prevented the crash. The weight of our load, the trailer itself, I think was more of a factor. The there was the wind. There are invisible wind "lanes" where it normally blows through where you can be driving along in a gentle breeze then WHAM, you're in it. Donnie & the Staff dedided what vehicle we took that day. Did you miss the fact that we rode the bus (they already had) to the airport. Craig certainly didn't buy it the day he came out there. It was a nice day, we WANTED to ride in the open air truck. Folk VOLUNTEERED to ride back there. We didn't want to rid in a big yellow schoolbus we wanted to feel the wind in our hair and feel the breeze! We were having a BLAST, right up til the moment we crashed. These are not excuses they are facts. Please do not allow the fact that I tend to focus on the positive to cause you to view me as a "TWI sympathiser." I took the time to completely review whatever baggage I may have had from TWI. I've "processed" differences, made distinctions, and even determined what distinctions there are without a difference in my mind. I took the time in starting around 1989/90 to sort through EVERY single thing I think I think. I dug so deep as to ask myself, "Is blue REALLY your favorite color? OR do you just THINK it is because someone said it should be because it's the most popular favorite color in the world. Are you just tryin' to fit in to the group? Huh? Are you>? Well ARE you? Or what? I realized I actually have grown to like a certain shade of blue-green as my fav. I went through every single thing I believe, every single thing I say, why do I say it THAT way? etc. In so doing I've fond that being 'anti' anything is not healthy for our human brains. I can be anti TWI by being PRO freedom, etc. I think being anti requires a bond with the thing you're anti to (or is it against?). It can keep one connected in a negative way to the very thing they don't like.. It also can blind people in certain areas at certain times. I think anti taken to extremes leads to insane behavior; eg. SOME people who think other people shouldn't use the fur of animals as clothing, use the BLOOD of other animals ANTI the fur wearers. People anti aborting the lives of unborn infants abort the lives of full grown adults. Anti-war people declare war on the war. These things are crazy to me. The people are passionate, their causes are just. I think they get "drawn away of their own lusts, enticed..." and do crazy things. I'm not saying you're crazy, santori or anybody. I think in your passion some look past some things and do the same thing you've (santori) accused me of. Like not having dealt with all my "baggage" from TWI. I suggest that, if the fact that I said it, and the 'way' I said, "read the BIBLE" still taps "into several years of, well, it isn't love, stuff which mostly just sleeps with the past. Call them unpleasant experiences." You're not as healed, and not as 'out' as you think you are. I went through a phase like that. Beyond that is a place where, SINCE I firmly believe that TWI stole a LOT from my life AND they were and are wrong to have done that... I'm completely unwilling to let them have any more effect on me whatsoever. TWI has no right to "change the natural use" of words into their catch phrases. Eventually I, feel we must "take the words back." We must take back the power they tried to hold over us. All of it, all of us. I believe that when a person takes back all of their power, when a person is sufficiently healed; they can hear certain things and NOT be triggered into reliving past umpleasant things. I will, however try to be more careful in how I sling stuff around. It certainly is not my intention to offend you or anyone else. Actually. I think you have an entirely clear perspective and I like your challenging views. I hope our dicussion gives food for thought to many. ******************* Anyways, I believe Kevin Smith was a hero that day. He saved lives by his driving. I choose to focus on the fact that he probably SAVED my life that day. He was responsible for a lot. Its MY story and I'm stickin to it.