HCW

So we're sittin' at supper one day in the lunchroom at Emporia lookin' down at our plates. A bunch of the usual suspects. Some of us around the table were part of the same group of wild foot crazy 11th Corps guys that Radar talked about running in slow motion to the Chariots of fire background music JAL was playing for effect. Today's topic, however was... "What is THAT?" "I dunno." "I aint eatin' it." "Well, I'M hungry." "ME too, but I aint eatin' THAT!" "If I knew what it was I MIGHT eat it, I'm hungry." "I know what it is..." "Ok smartass, you know what it is, YOU eat it." "NO. YOU eat it. I told you, I aint eatin' it." "I know what it is, that WHY I - AINT - EATin' it." The plurality bowl went by and each guy in turn picked up his fork and stabbed his perfectly round, igloo-shaped scoop and plopped it onto the bowl, making a little perfectly shaped mountain of the dreaded.... Brocoli/Millet caserole... Ugh. "Now what are we gonna do?" I leaned forward and said to my good bud G@rl@nd H@rr!s. "I'm STILL hungry," somebody else said, "Yeah What we gonna do about eating? We cant eat that sh$t." G leaned forward, looked at me & said. "A BIG MAC sounds really good right now" "Oooooohhhh, a BIG mac...!" It seemed like we all sighed in unison and sunk into our chairs. "Theres a McDonalds, right down the street..." "So close, yes SOOOOOOOOO far away." If only we could get there. Yeah. We could have a BIG MAC. AND fries. AND a milkshake! Everbody said, "miiiillllk shaaaaake." G said. You know, there's enough time before class... I said, "We could make it and be back, eat our food..." Somebody else said... "And DRINK our shake!" Yes MILK-Shake! ..."all that EATing... ...and drinking..... "done by Corps time for class." "Yes. BUT we have no vehicle. I only have a bike." I said. Can't make it on a bike. "We're not allowed off campus." Another sigh.... "Mcdonalds." We lifted our glasses in toast to Micky D's. G leaned forward again, turned towards me and said. "If we only had a vehicle." I said, "And a College Division friend." "Yes! Such a FRIEND could SAVE us." "The FREIND could use his vehicle...." "and his ABILITY to leave this wretched place." "That fed us this stuff>' "We CAN't eat it." There was a College Division guy sitting between G and I the whole time. Everyone else at the table was staring at him through out the whole discourse. He broke. He started flailing his hands in the air, "Ok .... OK !! I'll DO it! I'll go to McDon.." "Shhh! We MUST be QUIET if this is going to work." We passed a napkin around, everybody put their order on it and Garland & I put together this James Bond type plan where everone would quickly go back to their rooms and get their money to the college division guy who had to leave at precisely the right time from behind the building we ate in by the loading dock cause there was never any staff abck there who could foil the plan. I zoomed back on my bike and literally just lept off of it and jumped into the side door of College Division guy's van as he was leaving. they shut the door & off we went. We got the food and brought it back to garden level Wierwille and pigged OUT! The whole floor smelled like McDonalds & people were going NUTS! We were like the Godfather. Yes, my son, A bite of this Big MAC will cost you the cookie or brownie from your next three sac suppers. Some Staff & even JAL walked by. We all pointed in unison to College Division guy. We chipped in & bought his meal for transpoting us. He shrugged his shoulders, we munched. Nobody was late for class.

...and the wisdom of Solomon Mr Hamma. Maybe they thought the guy was possessed? & you're like, Uh..... I dunnOO-O! ???

...Belle, You threw a "Breastplate of righteous ness" one of the moves in the "Screens" category. Lots of guys would try the "boobie rub" and get "tha word, the word and nothin but tha word, baby!" We really did talk about this stuff on staff, a lot. Imagine, there were hundreds of women on staff, hundreds of guys. We had a steady stream of visitors and corps groups rotating in. Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from cryin'.

Tonto, Again, please don't feel I'm making light of or trivializing your experience. I'm not. Don W. had a reputation for doing that (no excuse still) he did it to my wife (at the time) she was so "everything'ed" behind it that she never wanted to come back to work. It was so much easier for a guy. I would never kiss the older women cause I just couldn't see kissin my "granma" anywhere but on the cheek. He (intentionally) "saw" your very respectful, inverse sidewinder and decided to "call" it and "raise you" with a "reverse sidewinder" so expertly executed that you couldn't counter it. What a BASTARD! HE was. I think the apparent duplicity of their actions actually damaged or brains with things that are IMPOSSIBLE ro reconcile. I remember a consistent pattern of events like what you talked about that chipped away at my innocency, or should I say SHOCKED it away like a handgrenade exploding in my mind. Like in 1977 at the end of a "HeartBeat Festival" when Franklin Smith, LC of PA asked me about some decorations that didn't get put up, "Ok. Who .... up!" He was the SAME guy who a little while before had been so Godly, so eloquent, so "all that & a bag of chips" for God. Behind the scenes he cussed like the devil. Burned that image in my mind for sure. Hey. I'm not doin' so good with the "there was good stuff" in TWI argument, am I?

That was the "hook w/ vice grip" combo. Mr. Hamma Part of the "screen" package. You da MAN! I've used the "pluck to the head" with the "do that again & I'll kill you stare," the "hair grab with firm yank." ... others... myself. Did you throw in the "Urkel?" (Did I do THHAAAAT?) smile while he was dancin?

I dunno George Aar, but hindsight would certainly point that way, right? Do you have a better reason to give somebody a wet kiss? Like "GeoStGeo" it never occurred to me to slip somebody the tongue... until AFTER it happened to me. As a teen and then 20-something typically horny kid; I'm as red blooded an American male as any and when a hot chick opened wide... and "smmmoooooocch- aaakkkawaaah....." Let's just say it got my attention.

From a guy's perspecitve. I think we inadvertently taught people on the field and in essence created our own monster. I didn't realize the trustees were "smackin' their asses off" like it seems they were. After while I'd only kiss people I knew. It got to where "nobody was safe" it seemed. I was ok, for a while with pecking strangers on the cheek. You'd have to adjust your approach vector and swoop cheekward, sometimes even audible to an inverse sidewinder after being locked into your glidepath. (Some people maintain eye contact while greeting.) THEN in the middle of YOUR inverse move, WHAM! The REVERSE sidewinder. Some chicks could whip their head around so fast and plant one on you so quick! Before you even KNEW what happened you were LIP-LOCKED and a snake was bangin', pushing through your hangar doors! Alarm! Step BACK Step BACK!!!! Dammit! get OUTTA THERE! When they countered your back step move with a forward step and a hook move of their own...well.... You'd win some, & lose some. On the other side of the coin. There were some male purpetrators who would lurk at meetings & gatherings. They subscribed to the "Gee I'd like to GET HER...in "the Word," frame of mind. They were like guys in a night club looking to see how much they could get. They mastered all of the "approach moves" and would even talk to women & connect & "witness" to them to see if they could "get 'em in the word" after the service. There were rumors of some "saturday night DON'Ts goin on after the "Saturday Night Doo." Misinterpretation of tongues was the first step, I'd say. I do take it seriously even though I'm hitting it from a comic angle. I'm sure you guys remember the whole body language thing, the head bobbing, lean in, lean out stuff. When I got married in mid '85 my perspective on the whole "holy kiss" thing changed. I'd always been sensitive to kissing married women on the mouth. Even more so when I had a wife that I certainly didn't wantto watch her spreading her "Lips over the World." I, personally would let women take the lead on the whole kissing thing. Some women said they were uncomfortable with the whole damn thing anyways. So I, eventaully would only kiss at all when it seemed appropriate. I don't kiss my own blood relative sisters every time I see them when I see them on a daily basis. I kiss them "hello" when I haven't seen them for a while & maybe kiss them goodbye when I leave to go back to Dayton. IMHO the whole thing was purpetrated. A Biblical loop hole to take advantage of women. The Bible doesn't say, "Everytime you see a woman in the church lay a wet one on her, right smack in the kisser." To me the "holy" part of the kiss necessitates that the MOST it would EVER be is a peck on the cheek. I can express a ton of Godly effection with dry lips on a cheek. Even the "air Kiss" expresses effection. Tonguing aint kissing tonguing is SEXIN.'

Ahhh. The "sidewinder" was one of many techniques developed to avoid the gross out. It was so bad at HQ that it became a "water cooler topic." We couldn't help but laugh at the purpetrators, who all seemed to at least lack class and at worst were actively tryin' to get over on people. I'd agree it was seen more like one of many things that we had to deal with. We came up with a list of the techniques the kissers would use and then develop "counter moves." The sidewinder, as described by Linda Z, was one of the most effective in the stealth category of counters. It was designed to save yourself and provide the least total embarrasment and punitive action toward the agressor. It carried with it the "at least you got your kiss" look & smile when the "dive bomber" (usually a tall fish-lipped, puckered-up guy who would reach out his hand as if to shake grab yours (the close quarters grapple hook close) pull you in while turning you to line up for landing (the hook manuever), then, if he was able to execute "the hook" he'd attempt, "the vice grip" locking you firmly in place.... all the while you could almost hear that WWII kamakazi, dive bomber sound.... (EEEEEEERRRRRRRRRnnnnnnn..........). You'd look up and see these dripping "fish lips" moving ever closer; trapped: you'd wait, wait, wait, hold it, not just yet... then as soon as his eyes closed to come in for the kill... "NOW!!!" The sidewinder. It would land, "Plop!" relatively harmlessly on the cheek. Some women were more adept at side winding to the left than the right. There were defensive moves (like the sidewinder), proactive moves, Pick's, the pick & roll, evasive pattern Delta, etc. There were "ad on's" like the "head fake," - Advanced moves like the "shake & bake." or "laying down the chaff." For really aggressives, (classified as "lip seeking misslies,") one would be forced to use an advanced combination move, which could include, say ... an Evasive pattern delta, with a pick, followed with a Pick & roll, where you'd lay down some chaff & throw a "slip move." If you were really good, you'd get through an afternoon on the OCS patio before lunch, or after the service snack shop relatively dry. Experts could throw a "shut out" and not get kissed at all. Women developed their own styles. Linda Z could throw a sidewinder with the best of them. East coast women were really adept at the "air kiss" and italian americans could even thow the double air kiss with an ever so slight but firm stiff arm. We'd have fun watching for and rating the manuevers. We'd hold up cards: 10! 8.5! Whoa! She's a PRO, did you see the "double pat" she threw at the end of her stiff arm! WOW! EXTRA CREDIT! "Look, look! that guy has achieved radar lock... OH!, She "delta'ed him!" Some of us guys would throw "assist moves." Like, if you saw a corps or staff sister thowing an evasive pattern you might step up and throw a "pick" so she could then throw a slip move and then "exit stage left" (or right :D-->) I've taken a few "charges" in my day and even got called for "blocking" by a few perps. Sometimes a female friend would swoop by you on an evasive pattern. make eye contact & nod her head to one side. That was how you could call to "drop some chaff." Just as she passed by you'd turn and extend your hand to the perp, "God BLESS you! So GLAD you could visit!" engaging him in small talk. His lock would be broken, she'd "roll away!" See, evasive pattern, dropping some chaff with a pick & roll. You gotta consider that we saw "most everything" @ HQ. Visitors poured in on a weekly basis, hundreds & hundreds of folks were there for the weekend activities every week. It got so bad that I would use one of my fav's "The Heisman Manuever." The Heisman is a combo move that can be thrown to the left or right: Prelim. All combo's begin once you recognize you've been "painted" and "locked." Part 1. Throw an evasive pattern that puts the perp on your preferred side, adjusting the approach vector. Part 2. At just the right moment you execute a hard left crossover step (right leg passes in front of the left turning your body left). Part 3. Lean left and execute a palm-strike stiff arm with your right arm to the approaching shoulder. Part 4. Use the stiff arm to gently push youself our of range while stepping back to an open stance with your left foot. At the apex of the manuever you'd look just like college football's Heisman Trophy! Hence the name of the move. When stiff arms failed (dive bombers generally had a longer reach) you could call "an audible," like, "Whoa, pardner!" and execure the faithful sidewinder. Wayfer Not! You may have been naieve, but you had great instincts; you're a natural! The purpetrators were the ones who pushed the idea that their "interpretation of tongues" was harmless. That was a "stealth move" on their parts.

I guess so Microbe, I'm amazed on the one hand, but I guess I did think people would want to know.

... because society sets it up that way

You seem to be awfully angry Danny. I certainly didn't say anything that should be connected with your situation that I didn't know anything about. Please do not connect dots that don't apply. I was no more involved in your life than you, mine. IF you are struggling with responsibility concerning your son and how much you did or did not work outside your home; please hear THIS. Having a child with problems, does NOT make you a "bad" parent. It only classifies you as parent of a child who has problems. IF you feel you made mistakes, you can certainly alter your path. If your parenting didn't "mean sheet" then HOW can YOU be at fault for your son choosing to be his own person that is a drug addict? Seems to me like the "blame" is coming FROM you TOWARDS you. Blame IS the problem. A separate problem that connects itself to situations and profits nobody more than a little.

Its NOT your fault Danny.

Cowgirl; I'm not judging anybody. If you insist on putting it in terms of right & wrong, I'd have to say, "You're wrong." I'm not "coming across" as though fathers who work to support their families are wrong. How CRAZY is that? Are YOU a single parent? I am. Condemn them TOO!??? I'm not condemning ANYbody. You certainly are misunderstanding what I said. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I didn't say jack about anybody who should do it "my way." Evidently you think I said "my way" is to say at home & "slog around on unemployment compensation." I didn't say I AM slogging around. I said I WAS at the time I was referring to. I said absolutely NOTHING about anyone making a decision to work outside their home. I'm not gonna defend things I didn't say. I didn't say squat about "my" way. I don't even have a "my way." I will say: Jim. You're precisely the kind of Dad I'm talking about. I'm not, nor would I ever question your decisions in your life. Nor am I "complaining" about the system or our culture. You "made a committment to actively raise (your) girl" CONGRATULATIONS on her accomplishments. I know how you must feel. My 18yr old daughter has a list of accomplishments herself. I'll tell you something my older brother recently told me... your daughters accomplishments reflect positively on you. It is obvious that you are not part of the statistical norm. Did YOU :)--> have to buy any new shirts? Buttons poppin' off & all? I wear a lot of sweaters. ;)--> In closing cowgirl. I aint mad at you girl! I was talking about what "Our society assumes..." As Jim pointed out AND illustrated, It doesn't HAVE to be that way. I wasn't saying I think Fathers shouldn't work. That's rediculous. Nonetheless society STILL believes it IS not only OK but the preferred "way" that the father chase "success" at the expense of his children. SOCIETY believes that the "car" or whatever trapping a $90+ THOUSand DOOLLars job can provide joy that would replace the loss of DAD's PRESENCE for the EXTRA hours Dad would have to be GONE to earn the $90k. Jim said he "turned down $90k/year jobs to have time for my family. I commuted on a motorcycle and worked close to home so I could get home" ... because the job would keep him away. I've been a highly paid slave for some of the largest companies in the world. I wasn't getting at "to work or not to work" that was NOT the question. Point blank. I believe that more fathers should be like Jim and make a conscious decision to "be there" for their children. I've worked with and seen globetrotting executives. The work generally consumes them and permeates their life. As a general rule a job will "require" 10 hrs/wk for every $10K/yr you make. I believe that the biggest word missing from our society today is ENOUGH. In this context a Father MUST find a way to be there ENOUGH for his children, as well as his chosen profession regardless of what he does. Do you have a problem with that? Geeze we sure argue enough here on GSpot. :)--> :)--> ;)--> -->

Shaz; They kicked your (now ex) husband off staff for drinking??? What a crock. I'll never forget the first time I saw VPW get drunk. +++++++++++++ I've had a few chicks "plant one" on me too. They were usually cute & I was a little flattered, or thought the same kinda thing that maybe they only knew how to kiss like that. Evidently they were "fishing' or "recruiting." How gross. Immorality aside, its not like any of those guys were actually like, HOT, or attractive. Ugh. How gross. I never even kissed any older women on the mouth. I was uncomfortable with the notion of kissing ANY married woman on the mouth, at all. I felt like it "wasn't my mouth" to kiss and that a kiss on the cheek was a perfectly fine way to show Godly affection for someone. I remember talking about people taking advantage of the kissing. People would name then , like did you ever do a "sidewinder?" Or the "air" kiss? I don't mean to make light fo it, but it got pretty rediculous how folks would "try stuff." I've actually yanked guys off of women who were obviously shocked & grossed out by guys "taking liberties." Lingering kisses, sliding hands, etc. I almost thre a guy on the floor once. He put a "hammerlock" kiss on my WOW sister at twig one night. He was no longer "welcome at the way"....

W-buffalo; Yeah, my older brother was very much against me staying in NK. We discussed it at short length, if that makes any sense. We talked for a long time about the short topic, "my daughter needs ME." My big brother (of a whole 2 1/2yrs) loves me dearly. I can count on him to be in my face about any stupid thing I do. We discussed all of the pro's and cons. He said something like, "What if you make enough $$$$$$$$ to BUY a nice town." I said something like; "What if my daughter hates me, silently, for leaving her AND her mother? What if she understands, which she does, the "Mom" piece, how can she understand me leaving HER?" He had no comeback for that. BTW excie, Its my brother who's the actor, his wife is a documentary film writer. They don't have any kids. My bro made his choice career first then family, I chose family then career. My brother Leland has worked in film, television, radio, broadway , off-broadway, regional and local theatre. His wife Michelle does mostly film & TV. I'm presuming you were curious as to whether you've seen 'em. You've probably seen my brother as he's had significant roles in a few pretty big flicks. He has an HBO movie that plays pretty regularly. Michelle's stuff is pretty heady, Like an HBO ducumentary called "Blue Vynil." I love my sis & all but I fell asleep watchin it. Click the links, their bodies of work is pretty impressive. They've worked w/folks like Gwynneth Paltro, Whoopi Goldberg, Harrison Ford, Joe Peschi, Denzel Washington, to name a few. I'll tell you. Its pretty wierd doing a google search on yer brother & seeing a bunch of links pop up.

excathedra Weren't you 9th? Still eldering me, my "mom in the (cuss) words."

Jim; Our society assumes that men will be the hunter-gatherer and win the bread, and bring home the bacon when there is wife and children involved. We fathers, in general, buy into that and LEAVE our children while we go to work. The more "successful" we are professionally, the more we are GONE, putting in hours at work. Society tell us we are successful. We "provide for" our families while fathers are largely absent from them. Statistically, fathers in two parent home spend about 12 minutes (is it per day or week, I forget) with the individual child in his family. That's GONE, as in left, as in not there. The whole divorce arena, which 42% of marriages end up in (24% of "Christian marriages) is set with a presumption that the mother will keep the children while Dad works and pays child support to the MOM. Dad is EXPECTED to be GONE. In my first divorce, the majistrate, partially in effort to ease my dismay in losing custody of my daughter, said, "...Besides, not living with your daughter will free you to have time to work and earn a better living for her and all of you." In other words, GO, be gone, send back money, become a VISITOR in your childs life. That's what I'm talking about Jim. Now that I have custody of my son's people who work in and are familiar with the divorce industry consistently commend me, saying how few fathers there are who even TRY to get custody. In essence. Fathers are gone. Society is now defininf that the single best key to stop abuses of females in our society, such as have been discussed as rampant in TWI, is a strong realtionship with their fathers. If we're gone? How can we "be there" for our children.

(((((((((((((PS)))))))))))))) I'm mew to GS myself. Even as a 'newbie' I think most everyone would agree that posts like yours are PRECISELY the RIGHT thing, hitting the PIN on its point as to what these forums are about. Yes. This thread, I'm finding is a very healing thing for me. Healing in ways I didn't forsee. Excathedra and Ala and a couple of others can tell you I was really not that gung ho about sharing it. We were chatting & they gently yet firmly encouraged to to tell the story. (I knew they wouldn't leave me alone til I did. :)--> ) I didn't imagine it would be going strong 35 pages later. Your post pulls out even more that I wasn't able to communicate, in that is was buried under the pain of her loss. Rochelle was fortunate to have a friend like you. BTW I know exactly who you are. We had lots of fun back there, gettin' in trouble makin' noise, with your laughing & giggling. Please accept my tearful THANK YOU for your fantastic contribution to Rochelle's memory. I still consider myself to be 11th Way Corps. As you said, "We did a lot of growing up together." When I think of the 11th Way Corps: THAT is what I think about. I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind that you'd feel that way, because that is what WE were about. Regardless of what was or wasn't wrong with the ministry there was a moment in time when that wild foot crazy group became "WE." I'll never forget that. I'll never forget all of the "we" times WE shared... Rochelle was a part of WE, a part of US. WE all grieve her loss. All that was WRONG with TWI should NOT be allowed to squelch all that was RIGHT in each and every ONE of US, ALL of us, beyond US 11th through to every person who ever got involved. Nobody can take friendships like you had w/Rochelle away from you, NOBODY. I think TWI telling people, YOU are NOT WC or a "deciple" or whatever THEY say we're NOT anymore is just another piece of the BULL SH%Tthey "promulgate" that "prevails" through the organization. I don't think see my designation as 11th Way Corps as tying me to TWI, my being ELEVENTH WAY CORPS, ties me to YOU, ps, and all of the rest of us. Hey if THEY can change MY designation to whatever THEY want I can chge THEIR designation to whatever WE want. I feel like my changing the way I refer to myself because THEY said so is yet another way that I give THEM power over me. Its another, middle-finger-intensive, way of them CONTROLLING me. I feel that every time I say "I used to be WC" I am doing it because THEY say so. I'm upset with them for what they did. I believe what they did was WRONG, so should I now say they are RIGHT to tell me what I'm NOT. Hell no. They will say NOTHING to define ME in any WAY. When I went into The Way Corps, it was irrelevant to me that MY 'Lifetime of Christian Service' was associated w/TWI. The term "Way Corps," to me, was associated with my serving God's people. The "WAY" part of Way Corps was supposed to refer to Jesus Christ, who IS THE WAY, the truth, the life. WC was SUPPOSED to be about Jesus; JC, NOT VP. The only way I consider my saying, "Yes. I'm 11th Corps" connects me to TWI at this point in life is that I'M being a little "middle-finger-intensive" to THEM. That's how I see it. I'll always see you as my little 11th Corps sister as well. Fantastic post. Welcome to GreaseSpot.... "P@##$ cake P@##$ cake bak-ers man, Make me a cake as fast as you can" ;)-->

I dunno shell you tell me....

Yes Linda. Our entire society is set up so that men leave their children in favor of bucks. That sends such a hugely negative message to them, "My Daddy cares more about money than he cares about me." Oh yes it DOES. Little kids will take the money you give them & the stuff it buys and appear happy cause little kids think they want stuff. Older kids & young adults would tell how they would trade it all instantly.

I'm sorry excie, but I don't see the joke in that. I do appreciate your intent to communicate though. I'm also more than a little sensitive to "women's issues." The nature of a question like that suggests that it could possibly be true, hence the question . Would it communicate better to say that pointed questions do have 'points'? Even mine. Sometimes the point of a question or statement pokes and "hurts" a little, especially if it points to an area that is sensitive in a person. Obviously a prick in a sensitive area feels like a slash of stab would elsewhere. I took the time to be clear, for clariy's sake in general, an attempt to allow whomever to see more clearly where I'm coming from. It was mmore that than a defense. You're certainly entitled to you opinion on the closeness thing. I was writing about what folks told me about us 11th, not just what we felt. We 11th feel we were the best damn group EVER to don the grape sweatsuit :)--> ;)--> . Thats my story & I'm sticking to it ;)--> !!! No. If you wife tells you directly don't do that. You don't do it BECAUSE SHE SAID not to period. Hupotasso (greek for submit) goes BOTH ways. If more guys got that we'd have a lot more MEN and a lot less problems & a LOT less divorces, etc. If wifeepoo says, "Don't kick the bastard's foot, honey." and you Kick the dang outta the bastard anyway. Three things are accomplished. #1. You feed your OWN testosterone driven EGO. #2. You do kick some very deserving foot. #3. YOU TEACH YOU WIFE THAT YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITH HER HEART. The .... bastard has already hurt your wife once, who are you to kick HER when she's down??? By kicking foot against your wife's will, you allow the .... BASTARD power to fracture your realtionship with your wife. You become HIS puppet and do the same thing to her he was trying to do, HURT her. You excie, would have told me to kick the bastard's teeth in and I would have been happy to do it. BUT. THAT particular jerk would have certainly had me jailed, should I have shoved his tongue down his throat with my foot. That would then get me out of the picture... so he could have an opertunity to rape the wife. I hit 'em where it hurt most, in their wallets. The prescribed LEGAL end to that particular molestation would have been a civil suit. No jury or court wold incarcerate a person for a "kiss too far" when said kiss was NOT completely unwelcome. (there was the "holy kiss cultural piece in TWI, right?) It was legally her word against his, a legal stalemate; imopssible for her to prove he did anything. SO. She never wanted to go back to work for the bastard because of what he did. Although the policy said, "whenever" what they meant was "within a reasonable amount of time," usually about 3 mo, max. They allowed things like playpens in offices & they provided childcare for all ages for free. There was "no reason" she couldn't have returned to work in a matter of weeks. The stated intent of the policy was not to pressure women to work. They left it open ended so that if a particular family had issues, concerning either/or mom or child they didn't have to feel like they MUST come back after, say six weeks. I saw the maternity leave policy as a way to get her paid without working for it. A lawsuit would have paid some $$ for pain & suffering should one prevail. She wouldn't have to work to earn the settlement. Some settlementsa are paid as annuities, over time. He getting her salary w/out working was no different to me than getting a settlement. Money is money. She did never work there again after that. But she got paid for about three years.

Thanks John. I'm pulling it down tonite.

Waterbuffalo; I stayed in New Knoxville firstly because I owned a home (with a mortgage). NK is a wonderful little town that TWI does not, nor has it ever defined. NK school is one of the BEST schools in the State of Ohio. It hovers between & 1 and top five. Also. Do you live on a wooded (30 mature trees) acre in the country? $330/mo mortgage? My neighbors would call and leave messages like, "...You know that heavy wind we had to day? It blew your back door open, I walked over & closed it fer ya. Just wanted you to know..." Lester, who owned the farm across the street would bring his tractor out & plow my 85ft two lane driveway when it snowed real heavy. Stuff like that. I used to have & my ex-sister-in-law still has season tickets to the NKHS basketball games. Right at halfcourt, three rows up. She's moved to CT now. I use her ticket when I go see Jasmine cheer. Last week at a game a local guy, who I forget his name turned around & patted me on the leg w/ congrats @ Jaz's school accomplishments. (did I tell you she's beautiful too? :)--> Slap me I'm a proud Papa) NK is a really nic e place to live, virtually no crime ( they had a murder about, umm, ten years ago?) nice people, family atmosphere in a real Andy Griffith kinda way. Its charming. A four year old got shot in Dayton yesterday. My last house was robbed three times in two months... I'm sure you catch my drift. Yes. Generally one camn make more money in bigger cities. I worked in Dayton and drove 65 miles one way 5+ days/wk. I've worked for AT&T, US Army Space Command, SATCOM (satellite comunications division) US Air Force from Dayton to name a few. Had money, lost money, now I'm working & will eventually get back $$ as a partner in our ne Ad agency. This area is also with 1 day's drive of 90% od every major metro area in the country. My brother the actor, who lives in NYC with his Emmy Award winning wife used to try to get me to move to one of the coasts, for the same reasons, mo $$$$$$ and higher competition level. The hustle, the bustle the whole thing, which I really love and thrive on.... At he beginning of the divorce, My Jazzy could hardly stand to go away to be w/Mommy. I mentioned once to her when some company was wanting me to move. "Daddy is thinking about moving?" Her little face broke up like glass shattering. I said, "Well you don't have to worry about that. You Daddy will NEVER leave you." I've sacrificed, especially slogging through months on unemployment compensation having Companies tell me, "I wish we COULD hire you. But you'll cost too much, you're overqualified." "Then I could surely perform in the position, right?" I'd say. They'd smile &shake my hand & hire somebody else. I used to think that Jasmine would be better off if I were to go somewhere and make ONE MIIlion DOOOLLars (pinky) and have Mo money , Mo money, MO money.!! to give her & buy all the stuff. I'm now convinced that a BIG part of why she's done so well in life so far is that told & showed her "Your Daddy will NEVER leave you." That's the real, central reason I stayed in NK, to stay near my daughter.

Yeah. Its called a JOKE where I come from. No apology necessary. Of course we're all special as individuals. No doubt. Too bad we all don't see ourselves as special as we are. If so we wouldn't put up with as much crap as we have. However I was speaking as the group. I'd seen most of the Corps groups from one to 13. The 11th did have a "special" as in different in a good way, quality in that we were "closer" than most as a group. That was special, not necessarily "better." I'm not following this.... Different than what? I didn't stand for it THEN, either. I stood for & with my WIFE. First of all there was nothing in my post that said I was OK w/ Don slipping my wife the tongue. In fact what I wrote was precisely opposite. I said: "The wife was PO'ed at Don W...she said, "He was hittin' on me!"... I... didn't really try to get her to come back to work. (since she was gone from work for the almost 2 years on maternity leave. The "tongue slip" thing HAD to be before she was pregnant - - add nine months to the 21 months) Look at the statement in its context. "...when I got the boot...They may have thought I had "gotten over" on them concerning my salary....they weren't getting any production from the $$ allocated to her (my wife)....I didn't have any problem with the whole thing.... ...Even though it was impossible for her to prove what DW did, I didn't have a problem with her getting paid by them from 12 to 14THOUSand DOOLLars per year to do NOTHING for them. Since SHE said she was uncomfortable going back to work. I couldn't get her to come back to work because THEY were asking "when is she coming back" and I DIDN'T try to get her to come back. I was oK with using their own policy to accomplish for HER what it would be impossible for a lawyer to prove. She got paid approximately $39.000.00 for ONE single slip of a Trustee tongue. It was the same as settling a lawsuit against DW & TWI for that amount w/ no attorney fee. No waiting, no embarrasing testimony in court. I did that on her word ALONE. NO proof, no "you're weak," no, "But He's a TRUSTEE, are you sure you didn't slip HIM - - YOUR tongue? After all you did feel the tongues together." NO. I didn't do any of that. I when she said she wanted togo on maternity leave, I said, "Cool, according to this policy, you don't ever have to go back to work. I think they MAY have fired me over that. "I didn't have any problem with the whole thing." Just tryin to be clear. I ain't mad at you Excie. I just think you can spare me you biting comments a little. When you scan MY posts, you're not gonna see me excusing THEM. They still smart a little even after "sowwy." I fought them tooth & nail til they threw me out. :P-->

Down Girl, down! :)--> I offered to rip Don's lips off and his tongue out of his mouth. She felt that if I made and issue out of it they would make things worse for her & us.