HCW

Thanks WW. I do appreciate the update. I agree, that Tom's post was worth repeating...maybe now it's been established?

Further... Logically speaking, based on a simple (if - then) mathematical principle, IF you use: To both refute contrary positions and justify your position: Then you MUST use the same logic to refute opposite positions and JUSTIFY simlar positions; regardless as to whom the person is, or WHAT the position is. YOU threw the anchor down, Mike, when you said, and then repeated. "Use the EXACT words...." again to refute positions opposite of yours and to justify your own position. Your position being: that VPW, as moved by the Holy Spirit told us to master PFAL - - NOT the Bible. Your anchor of logic being, "If God had meant "that," he would have said, "PRECISELY that." YET... when the OPPOSITE position, uses YOUR logigic, from the anchor position YOU set. You pull your own anchor and STILL refure the opposite position. The opposite position being: Neither VPW, and absolutely NOT God, ever said that anyone should "master PFAL" as a replacement for the Bible, which VPW considered and GOD considers to "be" God's Word. Your anchor of logic being, "If God had meant "that," he would have said, "PRECISELY that." The weight and power of logic, in a debate, is that opposite positions are compelled by the weight and power to draw the conclusion that the LOGIC suggests, not the will of the person propounding the position. Therefore, the mathematical principle is evident and speaks clearly here. Mike: IF you say that because Vp never said, "It's the Bible, it's the Bible, it's the Bible.... and nothing BUT the Bible!" to justify YOUR position... you MUST accept that because VP never said (the EXACT words) "Its the PFAL, its the PFAL, its the PFAL.... and nothing BUT the PFAL!" to justify the OPPOSITE position... and therfore rufute YOUR own position. It is insanity to: 1. vehemently argue against your own position 2. apparently FORGET your own logic used in establishing your own position. 3. expect different results from doing the same thing over & over & over & over again. It is immoral to: 1. Change your position in the middle of a debate while you say your position is constant. 2. Reject ALL logic, every other position, then insult people who don't share your position, DECLARE them as nobody.... 3. then lie about all of the above. My statement "You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise." is not an attack, no matter how obscure the word you use to define it - - it is an OBSERVATION. Same as this one: As I look out my window, I see it is a sunny morning as I'm typing this. When I said you were BLIND that was actually the NICEST, most KIND, most GENTLE and MERCIFUL; "AGAPE" lovingly thing I could possibly say to you at this juncture. If you are NOT blind the things I would be compelled to say, by logic and Godly principle are much much worse. STOP this Mike.

Who ever said I was "extremely close" to VPW? I knew him, Yes. I worked on his staff, yes. I worked with him, yes. I never said I was "extremely close" with him. "That is THE most rediculous thing I've ever heard." I quote Groucho Marxz. However you spell his name this "debate" as Mike would call it is more comedy than anything else. If you disagree w/me Mike, be honest enough to just say "I disagree." Call me wrong, if you feel I'm wrong. You obviously claim to believe what many of us feel is absolute idolatrous insanity. But THIS, this is just rediculous. There are rules, standards for debating. For as much as you declare you are writing for this new, and equally damaging and rediculous category of "believers;" this is the freakin INTERNET. It just don't get no more public than that. There are people looking at this thread. You actually owe it to YOURSELF, Mike to present your side of this issue in such a manner that would give credence to your position; no matter how rediculous I or anyone else may believe it to be. There is just NO way that a reasonable person could read your posts and believe you Mike. YOU - ARE - BLIND. Your arguments do more harm to your position than anyone on the other side could ever do. You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise. I don't care if you reject my position as you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is that PFAL is what it is what it is. Neither you or I can "declare" it into any more than what it actually is. Your rediculous antics disqualify YOU as the "one" who can speak for PFAL.You're crazy, if you believe the crap you've written.

This is a simple subject. No. PFAL was NOT God-Breathed. VPW never said it was. I have personal, and actual knowledge of the fact that he never considered his works to be equal to the Bible. He would never agree to your assertion that his statement to master PFAL was intended as a REPLACEMENT for the Bible. VP HATED the concept of progressive revelation and said it was a lie from HELL. I edited some of his writings myself. My goal in cutting words from his works was simply to get them to fit on a page. There were no "hundreds" of editors who worked on his books, there were like TWO. No big heavy duty reasoning, they just had the requisite skills (professionally and spiritually), a knowledge of his works and knew how he might put things in terms of his style of speech; as in diction and vocabulary. It was important to Vp that his written works sounded like HIM, the way he talked; therefore there was only a handful of people who worked on his stuff. I was one of them. I spent enough time with him in every basic environment, from personal, private, to private business meetings, photo sessions, staff meetings, etc. I was even there at the private, behind the scenes meeting when he "passed the mantle" of TWI over to LCM. There was a private, invitation only, rehearsal of the ceremony that only a few people in the world even knew happened. VP said it was like a wedding in that the commitment for Craig to take over theministry as President would happen at a certain moment in time in his heart and that the actual ceremony would be just a public proclamation before God of the commitment that had already been made. We rehearsed how VP would actually put the mantle on LCM's shoulders and I told him how I would need him to do it to be sure that I and the other photographers could get a good shot of it. We went over it a few times then, VP said, "Ok, lets do it." He did it and prayed over LCM and prophesied over him. After he was done, he said something to LCM to the effect of, "Ok son, its in your hands." There was an air about the room that "mantle" actually passed right then, during the rehearsal. I know what VPW said to LCM about the ministry. I know how VPW felt about his works. I was there. In some of the "there's" I had a unique position in that it was my job to be right at the very center of what was going on and record it. I have an understanding of what being "moved by the Holy spirit" is concerning producing a "work." Frankly, there is a distinct DIFFERENCE between being inspired by God to do a specific work and the Holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The difference lies in GOD'S INTENT for the work. "In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS God; the SAME was in the beginning with God."... places God's "Word" as it was written in the stars, and recorded on tablets and passed down in translation in what we know as The Holy Bible in a SINGULAR position. Its position is above ALL else, ABOVE all other works inspired by God. Its total perfection is unmatched and its perfection is not limited to ANY human language. OF COURSE the books, translations, et. all or NOT literally God's Word, BUT they do REPRESENT God's Words and are the only and PRIMARY link between us and God, who literally IS His Word. We can never attain the totality of God's Word, seeing as the heaven is high above the Earth, so are his ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. God's word can't FIT in ANY book, much less PFAL. It is HERESY to suggest that any works can replace the Bible and idolatry to lift any man up equal with God in terms of comparing his works to GOD'S. Good Grief! God even tells us that we should not even give any thought to what we say when we're called on the carpet because in that same hour He, via Holy Spirit will give us the words to say. God does that on a regular basis; you can't say those words, even though people speak as moved by HS are equal to or a replacement fot the Bible. Geez... The problem here, Mike, is that VP simply said God was inspiring him to write... "This book, Power for Abundant Living, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived and which he came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God." He said ONE way, not THE way. "It is a book containing BIBLICAL keys...designed to set before the reader the BASIC keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold...." There is NOTHING about how understanding it will usher in the return of Christ. That's just plain CRAZY.

And another thing... I laid out the article you mentioned. I will repeat the fact that when VP usually said, "Its the WORD, people".... He was pounding his Bible. It was, many times open to Ephesians. In fact, he did it so often that he tore many of the pages of his favorite BIBLE by pounding them. He used to laugh about not wanting to lose the torn Bible pages, because... It's the Word, Its the Word, Its the WORD, Poe-ple. This is absolutely insanely ludicrous. HOW can you learn God's Word without the Bible? If you're gonna be so damn faithful to PFAL, Mike, BE FAITHFUL TO PFAL!!! "Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational scripture for this book. ... I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God; but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness." That is the FIRST PAGE of the PFAL book, Mike. Assuming your God-Breathed rhetoric were, in fact true... let's apply your mastery of PFAL's principals to the above. Hmmm. The FIRST word of POWER for ABUNDANT Living. Is JESUS. The FIRST subject mentioned in PFAL is Jesus' proclamation... as recorded... in the BIBLE. The FIRST thing VPW did in PFAL was to declare the FOUNDATIONAL SCRIPTURE for his written, God-Breathed, work. And YOU, O great defender of the PFAL faith, say "He wasn't referring to the Bible." Well it was ONLY the FIRST thing he referred to. You are only faithful to USE VPW and his works as a means to get attention.

I find it VERY interesting that I can't find a single place in ANY of VPW's writings, teachings, conversations, etc. where Dr. ever said his work was God-breathed. He never used those words, Mike, why do you? Then, when someone pins you down on the insanity of your position, your retort is, "Use these exact words."??? It seems to me this is why people call you insane. It starts out that you innocently look like a dilligent, but misguided fool (not an attack, a Biblically accurate usage of the word fool as defined on Proverbs). You write things that appear as though you are an intelligent person. People take you up on your discussion, then whenever someone enters a counter point to yours, you bring out the insanity!

The question about converts is not important to me, Mike, I just wanted to see IF you would answer it. Where are they? Why are you always the lone ranger in this endless debate? You're an amoeba Mike. It is obvious that you live for the debate. Wiggle, squirm, twist. Your shape changes to fit the environment. You're manipulating. What you do & don't address shows me a pattern that does more to keep the debate going than anything else. Hmmm... Jesus says, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." Mike says, "master PFAL" so we can understand all this hidden stuff. Hmmm... MAYBE I'll go with, um, eternal life...???

Mike; Please answer with a simple yes or no... In all your years of doing this do you have a SINGLE convert? I'll even give you the blank ______________ to fill in, so it's not too much "homework" for you.

Thanks WW for the definition. It shows how doubletonged Mike is. He wants to speak respectfully of me while leveling veiled insults.

PS MIKE; DON'T ever again and STOP aligning yourself with me in ANY way, shape or form. 1. I'm NOT challenging you. 2. My comments on this topic are not "special" to you, they deserve no special file. 3. I have no desire for you to "save" my comments. In fact, my questions to you are, for the most part, RHETORICAL. WordWolf, whom you say I'm on the warpath against, is intelligent enough to see that. That's why he & others promtp you to respond to them. They see how my questions to you are designed as an expose of how ludicrous your position is. You don't even have to answer them! You say you've been at this 7 years. If there was some actual validity to your point, you would have gained at least ONE ally in your cause, right? You would have ALREADY TOLD ME BY NOW if you had. You would ahve said WE have been debating this for 7 years, not I have been.... The fact that you, after 7 years of mastery, have to do "homework" to say, "Ummm... there are about "blank" number of others who believe this God-breathed thing too." Illustrates a basic lack of the requisite intelligence to make such a lofty claim. I didn't ask for a name, I asked for a NUMBER. If you don't have THAT on the tip of your tongue.... 4. Don't speak as if you know me, or my intent. You DON'T. I'm not angry at YOU. I just don't like what you are doing to GOD's people. PFAL is what it is what it is. I don't really care about that beacue I believe GOD was IN CHRIST reconciling the wold unto himself. We don't NEED PFAL any more than we need any other teaching ABOUT the Bible. 5. I will NEVER tell you a single word further about my personal conversations w/VPW. You dishonor his memory with your insane claims about his works. 6. I will NOT engage you in a point by point debate. Just as our country refuses to negotiate with terrorists. I refuse to debate idiocity with foolishness. 7. Any respect and positive equity I have here on GS among readers has been EARNED by my acting in a respect-ABLE manner. People don't agree with everything I write, I respect that I respect the rights of others to their opinions and positions on any topic and do not seek to ever tell anyone their experience is invalid. I try hard to only weigh in on topics where I have some moral equity and then say things that make some sort of sense. I've been bum-rushed when folks felt I was out of line, which is cool. Mike you have NO right to try to elevate your position by some sort of association with me. Stop it. Your lack of respect is a direct reflection of your own lack of respect-ABLE actions. I actually resent your constant mentioning of my name. We have no "special" relationship. Other folks tell you to respond to me because they see how I've made an effort to ask you that same things they've asked in a slightly different way. They appreciate the fact that I have the "I was there" perspective. I resent the fact that you use the fact that people lack certain information to refute your insanity. You don't see that I posted the fact that VPW didn't even write the book, PFAL as a "terminator." to your insane suggestion that PFAL is God breathed. If HE didn't write it HOW could it POSSIBLY be God breathed, by HIM?Rather than back off of the insanity, you try to lure me and enlist me as your "worthy adversary" and advance your cause by whatever equity I may carry. The more I get to know you the less there is to respect.

Again you err Mike. 1. I'm not on any warpath against you. 2. Just because I made some terse comments towards WordWolf almost a month ago does not give you the right to determine that I'm "on the warpath" against him. I actually thought that he & I patched up whatever differences there were then. I don't even remember the issue. I'm certainly NOT "even moreso" against him. You see Mike.... Or better yet it's pretty obvious that you DON'T see that my posts "against you" are in fact NOT against you at all. You just don't get it. Maybe this will help. "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty , so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3 My concern, my reason for addressing this issue regarding PFAL is that OTHERS will not be beguiled by your subtily and drawn away from the siimplicity that is in Christ. The man that you so admire, I saw with my own eyes, as he pounded many a desk, lecturn, bible, and anything that was in front of him as he spoke: Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, Its the WORD, peo-ple. Its the WORD. If HE believed as you believe, he would have said, Its the CLASS, Its the CLASS, Its the CLASS.... In absolutely certain that NOTHING in your seven years of mastery has unearthed him EVER saying that. In fact page 83 of PFAL, says precisely the opposite, when he spoke in both the film class and the written work, "Its not the works of VP Wierwille or any other man..." There is NO debate on this issue. My real concern is further stated in verse 4 of 2 Corinthians 11: "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." God addressed your PFAL, God-Breathed issue about 2000 years ago. Your message "sounds good," which is what the word subtilty in verse 3 can be literally translated. No one reading this thread could argue that that your position is NOT simple. Not only is it not simple, I'm a pretty well educated guy with a huge vocabulary... I'm fairly well read and I have no fricken idea what an "ad hominem warpath" IS! No thank you. I don't care to know either. I do know that things of God are simple and easily entreated, so that not even a "fool need err therein." When I read your posts, my educated, well read, 147 IQ, greek readin' (in greek characters), highly experienced 46yr old self finds my eyes crossing as your pedantic (there's a word fer ya ) stylings morph into the "whaa, whaa, whaa" like Charlie Brown's teacher in the cartoons. I look at your position and what I see is that you are the "he that cometh" from Corinthians. You are preaching VPW as "another Jesus" while you're saying that PFAL is "the way the truth and the life." Not only is VPW not "whom we have not preached," YOU yourself, say that PFAL is another set of "good news" (another gospel) which we have not accepted. AND. If we "bear with" you (we might believe you) we would certainly recieve "another spirit." I'm weighing in on this because I see you bringing God's word to life as you endlessly try to pull anyone and everyone who would believe you AWAY from GOD! You are illustrating the process the seprpent used against Eve in Genesis. You cannot say that the way to understanding God is by NOT reading His Word without directly REJECTING the Bible. "In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS God." I might have taken a different stance concerning your positive assertions concerning the relative value of PFAL, ...IF... your self-proclaimed MASTERY of the materials were actually reflected in your posts. In one of its simplest statements VPW in PFAL said, "truth needs no defense." FOUR - simple - words. Mike. If you believed PFAL as you claim you do, WHY debate it? If you actually believed that it was God-breathed, and therefore the TRUTH, you would feel NO need to defend it. If your mastery of PFAL led you to this enlightened understanding WHY don't YOU teach us spiritually immature ones the "gems" the signs on the "signposts," the "KEYS" to unlock the same truths for US? WE, the GreaseSpots, would be among the first to bring about the great wave of enlightenment you speak of. YOU would become the firstborn of many brethren, as we, together would usher in this newly renewed presence of God in the world. Then we would finish the works which would allow for Christ's return. Isn't THAT waht you beleive? YOU don't even believe (into manifestation) your OWN .... Mike. Don't you think the end result of what you speak of is MORE important than simply telling people "master the class?" If you say you don't try yo teach us the stuff because we haven't yet accepted the premise, or anything like that, my next post at you will be an EXORCISM. You are SOOOO wrong Mike. So blind are you that you think I'm attacking YOU personally. I'm not. I'M NOT EVEN TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE ANYTHING OR DROP YOUR ASSERTION OR CHANGE YOUR POSITION, MIKE. I'm commenting on this in effort to help keep other people who read your insanity from falling for it.

Hey Mike; OK Mr enlightened one. Can you tell us how, if you're so right about PFAL, it's Godly perfection et. al., how many people have you converted to your position in your seven years of enlightenment? If people were honestly searching after righteousness, would not God lead them to PFAL so they could be enlightened, as you? You are using "inside-out" logic Mike. You start from your conclusions then build a path back to them. Don't you know that when you hold your PFAL book you are holding a VERSION if IT? Has your research told you that the "written PFAL" was NOT EVEN WRITTEN BY VPW? Have you not learned in seven years of thorough study that the written PFAL book was complied by edotors from the film class? Then it was re-edited several times to correct errors from the TRANSLATION from spoken VPW English to more formal written english AND vpw had little to do with that? That statement is pure bull-dang Mike. Before I say anything further, I'm going to point out, for the benefit of ALL, that you use this precely identical statement in effort to lure me & probably others into your endless and equally ludicrous "Public debate." Not only is it not true, it is not even POSSIBLE that it COULD be true. Why? FIRST of all you don't even need a SINGLE word to defeat the adversary. He's already defeated by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. SECOND. You don't need a SINGLE word to resist the adversary. You can simply walk away from ANY temptation at any time, silently. THIRD. We are both ALWAYS and NEVER "face to face" with the adversary. Always, in the sense that his temptation to sin is latent in society in things that are ever before our faces. NEVER in the sense that "we wrestle not against flesh & blood...." FOURTH. You have NO right to say who does or more importantly who DOESN'T "operate the manifestations effectually." You simply aren't all knowing enough to know what happens anywhere you can't see, which is apprently not beyond the end of your own nose. FIFTH. God only uses the written words on a page of scripture as a reference to His spiritual truth. The words of a particular Bible are in many ways irrelevant. Your point of view reflects a specific ignorance on your part of the fact that there is ONE God, billions of people and thousands of LANGUAGES he uses to communicate and reveal His SINGLE truth to. The Bible refers to this process as "groanings that cannot be uttered." In other words, God uses the Bible as a means to "dumb it down for us." We read it, and put our hearts in a position where He reveals His truth to us via His gift of Holy Spirit in us. It AINT the words on the page, otherwise any human with a capacity to think could recieve God's truth from reading the Bible. The Bible clearly tells us that "the natural man cannot receive spiritual things, nor can he learn them with his mind because they are recieved directly through the spirit of God in him." You tell me, Mr. research man, where in the Bible is that? I guarantee you, it IS in there. The same truth, in many different languages consists of many different words, amounts of words, etc. From a Godly perspective words in different languages ARE no more than groanings, sounds, utterances. Human "words" carry little to no significance to God. He sees all humans as ONE - - MANKIND. From His POV there is ONE race, HUMAN. From His POV we all come from ONE guy ADAM (which literally means man) "he called her (EVE) WO-man because she came out from the man." The rest of us are a product of their union. Although there are a few peoles on the planet who are decendants of the union between women and some of Lucifer's fallen angels, which BTW was the specific reasoning to the flood of Genesis 6. It seems that it happened a few more times after the flood, but not to the extent as before, This also expleains why God said to Utterly destroy certain civilizations. (Oh seeing as we no longer need the Bible, How would we have found that through PFAL?) It is NOT the words I use that defeats the adversary in a given situation, it is the POWER of God that I tap into via where my heart is in reference to what I say. "To recieve anything from God you must FIRST believe that He is then believe that He is a rewarder to them that diligently seek HIM." You seek God via studying His word, NOT PFAL. You do err, Mike because you don't know the scriptures and more importantly, you DON'T know the POWER of God. This worldly wisdom you act like you try to utilize is FOOLISHNESS to God. For example: Your statement ... shows that you are either ignorant of ot you intentionally ignore the fact that any spiritual significance of numbers is limited to what GOD does, not ANY man. Which of us, by taking thought can add one cubit to his height? No, not a single one. This is where you jump off into idolatry, Mike. You have elevated VPW to Godly status by ascribing Godly prowess to his though process in how many times HE chose to repeat something. Hmmm... you expect us to believe that because he said "no translation" eight times it represents a GODLY new beginning to ALL mankind? Ok Mike. WE believe. I believe he cruised right pas spiritual perfection to a new beginning because VPW had the Godly insight to do so. Oh no, That's right.... He was a holy man who spake as he was moved by Holy Spirit. I temporarily forgot the God Breathed thing. What about the thing VPW said....Didn't he say something to the effect that you had to be bigger than something to explain it or speak for it? Why don't you clarify that statement, O thou master of PFAL, Its in the class somewhere, give me a segment & verse on it, if you would.... Yes I am insinuating that your cause in this whole PFAL thing is partly to elevate yourself as the one who saved the world via saving PFAL. If it isn't that tell us all what it is. Don't forget the list of your converts, OK? And finally, don't play your usual "you're being mean to me" card. I'm actually being quite nice, compared to what you deserve, this is full of mercy and grace.

BTW. I'm about 32 days from my 47th B-day and about 15lbs over my playing weight in HS. LCM can confront THAT. Mr. Athlete of the Spirit, living example of Corps principal 3, MOG for our day & time, you gotta go 24/7 to get in the game & compete spiritually...looked like the Pillsbury Doughboy last time I saw him. I'm spiritually weak. A Greasespot. Right?

The impressive stuff was done by the people who were actual dancers. Some of 'em were pros who actually performed on broadway. Somebody should have confronted LCM. I remember LCM, during his football stories telling of how difficult the transition from HS to college football was. He said that he was shocked that they taught them actual blocking techniques in college. Knee injury or not, he was behind because he just couldn't play at the level of the kids from the higher level football programs. He said all he had to do in high school was be big & grunt & throw guys out of the way. Btw. I wrestled too. I started in 6th grade, so I understand the 6yrs thing. I was too small to play football too, especially at the Quad A level. I played anyway, cause in Western PA, the Pittsburgh area, every baby boy, upon birth they spank your butt, slap a baby-sized football into your gut & yell in your face, "Don't cry, kid, SUCK IT UP!" The Steelers position coaches do clinics at the area high schools. I played during the Steelers glory days of the 70's, we were taught, by the people who coached the best footabll team in the world, the SAME techiniques they were using to win Super Bowls. There is no way a guy of similar size, strength & ability could compete without technique. Craig talked about stuff like that because it was NEW to him and he was amazed by it. It was other people using techniques, it was THEM not quitting, it was their working 24/7 on EVERY aspect of the game (that he wasn't doing) that held him back. I have a knee injury NOW (slightly shattered bone, bruising & three torn ligaments). Surgery would have sidelined me for a year, max. My non surgical rehab plan has me scheduled to be "back" in competitive condition in what would have been 5 months from the date of the injury. I'm working myself back gradually as my knee heals & I rehab muscles in my leg that atrophied while I had to immobilize the knee for six weeks. His injury wasn't all that bad... .... poor excuse for his lack of ability.

Yeah Justloafing; He looked like a cross between a bozo and a lumbering ox. I was SO disappointed with his performance. Any chance of using "Athletes" as an outreach tool went right out the window. Hey do you remember that "PFAL our Life-Style" show they did that year? Did you happen to see it? I remember it was really cool, folks LOVED it. LCM and the trustees canned it and reproved the performers for exhalting themselves, over the material. From my POV, it was the BEST show ever done in Way Productions. Big murmur went through HQ about it. They even destroyed the tapes (video and audio) and wouldn't allow it to be seen again. People gave it standing O's when it was performed. Legitimate standing ovations, not the plastic, legalistic ones that were protocol. People, even non-believer guests, loved it.

It IS amazing George. About 98% of this stuff here is news to me. Unimaginable. Some of it is even illegal. What I find most interesting is how this stuff If it were a movie, it could be called, "Revenge of the Wannabe" Starring L. Craig Martindale. The trailer would say, "Craig Martindale IS the wannabe." You probably all know by now how Craig REALLY wanted to be a pro football player. Here's an interesting parallel. I was reminded of this today as I was watching "Friday Night Lights" with my boys (decent flick BTW). For those who've never seen it, its based on a true story about a Texas High School football team's quest to win the 5A (the biggest schools), state championship. The 5A level in Texas is as big time as HS football gets. In a few other states, like California, Pennsylvania, Florida & Ohio, the top players are a "lock" at NCAA Division 1 colleges and a "good bet" at having a shot at the NFL. Of course there are other HS guys accross the entire country that have a legitimate shot at "the league," but those 5 states get the lion's share of attention from higher level scouts. Oklahoma is arguably among the top five. I'm from PA. (We're the BEST & that's all there is to it. Each of the other states says exactly what I just did. Hey> It IS about competition... :)-->) Craig was a decent player in HS. He felt he had a legitimate shot. But once he moved up a level to Division 1 NCAA he couldn't even start on a team that was not really that great. They had one of those "special" squads you get every so often & made the Orange Bowl one year. LCM rode the bench, the splinter squad, watching from the sidelines, wishing they could get in the game, etc. The parallel here lies in how the star player in the movie, once he blew out his ACL, the realization hit him that his future NFL career was gone forever. He cried as he also realized that "playing football well is the ONLY thing I can do." Therefore he apparently had NO future at all. All his dreams, gone, poof! In an instant, he left them all on the field. I all of LCM's rantings, teachings, et al. I can't, for the life of me, remember what his degree from KU is in? I don't even remember if he even finished his degree...??? I DO remember his stories about his football days. He talked about then "aal the time." His picture of the Orange Bowl he sat on the bench in was displayed prominently in his office in the Corps Chalet. What else was he good at in high school, other than football? After not having seen a Way Magazine since the last one I worked on in 1988; the first one I saw (about 15 years later) had a picture of him on the set of one of his new classes (I think it was the Adv. WAP). He was holding a football and that Orange Bowl picture was, again, prominently displayed. That was erie. Now that he was firmly in charge, he had changed EVERYTHING to HIS way. Now after hearing this stuff the parallels are even downright scary. There ABSOLUTELY IS a heirarchy in big time football. Rookies serve the veterans. If you were a starter as a junior, and basically all seniors made sophomores & freshmen clean our spikes carry our travel bags, etc. "Go get me a towel." or "Get up! Give ME your seat." ... is not only normal, it is accepted and EXPECTED. As varsity players, the team is a closed corporation "family." I was a two-sport varsity letterman at a Quad-A western PA High School. We were treated like rock stars in general. Our names were in the newspaper on a weekly basis, people all over the city knew who we were and would talk to us, give us favors, and do stuff like in the movie. Teachers gave us breaks in class at times, especailly the football players because our sport alone funds a large portion of the school's overall budget. When we walked around town in our lettermen jackets, jerseys or sweats. little kids would stare at us as we strutted by, then they'd say "Look mommy, he's a Big Tiger...." (Tiger was our mascot.) We had status, title, and all the perks that go with it. Coaches don't ask, they DEMAND highly detailed adherance to their policies and procedures. You DON'T question the coach's scheme, you can ask a question, but when it all said & done, YOU bend YOUR will to the way the coach demands that it be done, PERIOD. THAT coach was there because "they" wanted HIM and things done HIS way, because HE was a WINNER. If you brought yourself around and totally sold out, giving your FULL allegiance to the coach's program, he'd lead you to "the promised land of the CHAMPIONSHIP." If the star player needed extra time in the whirlpool "regular" players would give their time up to the star(s), no argument; you contribute a few tackles to the effort, he, a few touchdowns. Bench-warmers don't even get time in whirlpool, even though you get just as sore as the star. Its understood among all involved that that's just "how it is." Coaches yell and do all sorts of things to players that in other contexts are abusive, to say the least. If you don't like it, tough; don't let the door hit you in the foot on yer way out. If you CAN'T cut it, they cut YOU....goodbye. I could go on but... I see erie similarities to TWI 2; only the context has changed, but the same types of things go on. Thousands of guys every year accept the fact that they are NOT a world class player, even though they're very good, they're just never gonna run out of the tunnel to the cheers of thousands of adoring fans; the question, "Hey____! You just won the Super Bowl, what are you gonna do now?" just isn't in your future. Craig never accepted that reality. He apparently saw TWI as his chance to ascend his throne to the world class status he felt he was robbed of by "not getting the opportunity" to show his stuff to the Orange Bowl's national audience. I remember saying to him myself, when I first saw the picture, "Hey, I saw that game, I didn't know you were in it!" He went on to tell us the story later pointing out that he didn't get the opportunity to.... Regardless of what TWI was Before LCM, he definitely seems unnaturally fixated on the "big-time sports" life-style and turned TWI into an entity that allowed him to live his fantasy life, this time on top of the heap. His real life experience saw him as the wannabe major player, watching from the bench as the stars grabbed HIS glory. I remember the first time hearing him teach his "new Ephesians 6 research" (like VPW's research) about the whole armor of God, thinking the "athletes of the spirit" thing was a "stretch." I wondered why he would ever even START to look for an athletic tie to the already crystal clear "soldier" metaphor. Yeah we went along with it though, I know I felt it was "harmless," another way to see it. Then when he cast HIMSELF as THE athlete!!! Oh - my - God. In SPITE of the fact that he knew he had NO skills, NO training... the big Oakie, by definition, doesn't even have RHYTHM! He brought in "all" of the best "world class" dancers in the ministry... He didn't give one damn about anything other than thumbing his nose at anyone who ever said that he couldn't compete at the "top" athletic level. If that's not a mid-life crisis, I don't know what is. That attitude is what led to all the stupid things said & done during "confrontation" sessions; just my opinion.

Hey George, Out motto is, "I'd rather drink beer and lose, than lose and not drink beer." Lift a glass w/ me.... :)-->

The rule is, "Whatsoever thou doest, thou mustenest not rockest the boat." There are some environments that no matter how right you are you will never win over them. Here in Ohio they have a law which determines that an employer hires you "at will." They protect themselves by "giving" the employee the "right" to quit at any time for any (or no) reason; "at will" you can just say, "I quit." With no rescourse for the company no matter how you leave them. The REAL way it is practically applied is that the company reciprocates and retains the same right they "give" the employee. They fire you "at will" with no requirement to state any reason. I was once the Project Lead on a multi million $$$ project. I PERSONALLY saved the project from the crapper. The client had already determined that they would fire the COMPANY (to their multi million $$ detrement) if a certain satisfaction level was not met at the next in-process review. They hired me to save the day, AFTER I had originally lost the SAME job to two people who had masters degrees, (higher than mine) who couldn't actaully DO much at all. I figuratively speaking, stepped up to the plate, pointed to the right field roof and promptly hit the first pitch right outta the ball park. The project was SAVED! I was the new golden child. The clients LOVED me! They gave me an assistant; paraded perspective clients past my cube for impromptu marketing presentations, I handled the interruptions with class and poise. We even won new clients to do do the same type of work for. I thought I was on the fast track to the promised land of "Project management," etc. Then one day, while working through lunch, I was asked to come to visit the HR director. They had a letter prepared informing me of their having made an "at will employment decision." Sign right here, please. They gave me a BOX, escorted me back to my office and waited while I packed my stuff and escorted me to the parking lot. Bob the HR guy offered his handshake in THANKS for my job well done & wished me all the freakin' BEST in my future (with no income)! I later found that the company had bought a smaller company that did the same thing I did. Seeing as I was "the man" in the company, rather than giving me the reins of the new operational group, they canned me. Doing that created less waves than having this guy and his management team, who's company was going bankrupt, answering to me, who was incharge of the same operation in "our" company. I would have been unhappy about the de-facto demotion. I would have had to give up my bi-annual, all expenses paid (including rental car of my choice) weeks in Florida officiating client reviews; PLUS I was overdue for a raise and was already the highest paid non official "management" level employee in the company. I certainly wouldn't have taken a pay cut to be managed by someone, after excelling in managing myself and my assistant. It was "just business." Actually pretty smart business, as ugly as it was for me, personally, losing a very cool, high profile job; I can see how it was "the best thing" for the company. Hate to give that to those bastards, but I really can't argue the logic beyond, "I really NEED my job dammit!" I now see that they hired the "degrees" to GET the project (we'll have TWO people with Advanced degrees working on YOUR, most important to us of, project); keeping me on the back burner as insurance in the likely case the ones they hired couldn't actually perform the work. They paid them LESS than me, fired them BOTH and hired me to fix things. My greater salary than either of them was STILL less than they paid for the other two. Plus they got rid of the expense of one less benefits package. Sure it was "their loss" to get rid of me. They kept my assistant, however. They lost NOTHING that they really valued, however. They GAINED at least double or triple the capacity I provided. In business, "its all about the Benjamins, " you know ...

I understand rascal. Your experience illustrated the fact that many factory environments, regardless of all law, rules and morality, are places where "birds of a feather, work together." There is a high probability that upper mgmt. is more aware of the shenanigans than you are. Management has bottom line production numbers that must be met; for one reason or the other. Above all else they musy have as smooth a sailing environment as possible. I've heard of people getting canned because they worked too hard. They were perplexed because they felt that the quotas and bonuses and incentives were something they would be praised for achieving. Only they found that their superior work ethic clashed with lazy people who had been there either "forever" or long enough that getting rid of them would cost the company more than lower production levels in keeping them. Unfortunately, the fact that a production facility even HAS the 90 day thing is a sign that they use it to find human "cogs" that fit into the environment. They literally DON'T care who is in your slot. They want a "cog," or a "gear" that will flow with the others and won't rock the boat as much as anything else. There's a reason why so many back-biters work there. Mgmnt probably knows it and will go through all the the legal motions with you ONLY to ensure you don't sue them, or worse. Eventually, you'll fade away...is how they see it. Heck. I've even seen companys, white collar places that ONLY advertise openings in the want ads, because the law says they "must." They already have somebody ready to hire before they place the ad. They even interview people, just to be sure they can't be sued. They figure, "If we happen to find a REAL ringer for this spot, we'll hire them." Somebody in a company ALWAYS knows someone who needs a job. They recommend them as soon as the opening hits. I've been the more qualified person who lost the job to the person somebody knew, the qualified person somebody working there knew AND the ringer that displaced the person somebody knew. I guess this is part of what they mean by its a "dog eat dog" world out there. The coolest part about it is that if this door is slammed in your face, God has something better for you, definately. You'll probably wind up in the facility thay hires the cool & sweet people. Unfortunately again, those places are ususally the ones who pay the least. The laziest, most money grubbing jerks always flock to the places that pay the most. Geez.......

Yo Rascal; Actually, the things you are NOT doing: ... is what is turning them against you. ...that you think you are BETTER than them. Think about it. If you only do good things, and refuse to participate in what they do that they KNOW is "bad"... THEN: THEY who KNOW that what YOU do IS good, they think that you don't do bad stuff WITH them because YOU think you are BETTER than THEY are. They probably feel you rub their nose into what they do by your NOT doing it. From what I'm hearing, I'd say your problems there have little to nothing to do with how well you execute the safty procedures. I'm thinking they "set you up" by giving you erroneous safety stuff to prove to you that you are NOT better than them. It's not about work, its about fellowship. They say you are lovable, right? I'm hearing that they would like to love you but you won't "love them back" (by participating with them). Then they're like "Here miss goody, we'll show you just how good you're NOT." "Here.... Take this albert wrench and tighten the gzorden bolt on the thingamagig..." Did they invite you on a "snipe hunt" yet? If you handle it well you can turn this hell you're living into a sorta "hazing" thing. I'm thinking since they say you're lovable, but.... All you have to do at this point is drop a few well placed "bombs" to show them that you really ARE one of them. They'll accept you almost instantly. For example; I have this group of guys I hang with. We have a long lunch every Tuesday and every Wednesday is "Wing Night." It is a really interesting mix of guys, some of whom do some macho male stuff I really can't get with, like drinking more that I'm comfortablw with and dropping the F-word more than I would. They are a really great group of guys though. I go to church faithfully every Wednesday and come late to wing night (we meet @ about 8-8:30. I don't get there sometimes before 9:30-9:45. I used to get a round of "Where you been man's?" & "What's up with you, you need a battery for your watch?" Stuff like that. Then one day somebody said, "He goes to CHURCH." A chorus of "What?" followed, "You go to church and be late for wing night?" I smoothed up to the table, grabbed a little steak knife from a place setting and said, smugly, "YEAH. I go to CHURCH. Keep fu@%in' wit me about it & I'll cut you." Everybody around the table laughed & somebody said, "Pour him a beer!" Back slaps, male macho BS grunts, bumps, etc. Now every time sombody messes with somebody a little too much the target picks up a knife, "I'll cut you man..." I'm in. I'm accepted. I still don't cuss as much as some of them do & I don't drink as much as some. I'll even turn my glass over & punch somebody cause one guy in particular can really handle his liquor & he fills my glass up everytime I turn my head. I keep telling him, "No. I said I'm done" He says "Sure, I heard you, right after this one!" You need to do a few things (a few well placed and executed "bombs") that are in the category of things they do, but not so far in that you can't live with yourself. You won't have to compromise your morals & turn into them. The "bomb" you drop will blow up their defenses towards you. You won't have to do it a lot. I don't cuss much out of a respect thing, not a religious thing. I just think that using unnecessary cuss words makes a person look ugly. I cussed enough with the gang, I drink enough with them in other words I do enough of what they do with them to show them I don't look down on what they do, now they respect my decision to go to church. I get no flack (well not much flack :)-->) from them whenever I do whatever rather than hang with them. The apostle Paul talked about becoming "all things to all men." If you can participate with them in something they do, maybe start out by agreeing if somebody says so & so is a real bitch or she's a slut. If so & so IS a slut...well you're not doing anything worse than if you said a smart person was smart! Think about it. It just may work for you.

Also remember; "A soft answer turns away wrath (it does! it really does!) but grievious words stir up anger. Man! It so sometimes hard to lay a sincere soft answer on somebody who has it in for you. But mastering the art of the sincere "soft answer" really defuses people. I'm not as good at this as I'd like to be. I tend to want to "tell it like it is," straight up. That makes on an easy target in the corporate world. This is a specific tool God gives us to use to deal with angry people. Someone once explained Romans 2:1,2 to me like this. Any time someone wrongly accuses you of anything, the thing they accuse you of THEY either: 1. Are doing the same thing currently. 2. Have done it themselves in the past and still WOULD do it. 3. Are self righteous about how they DON'T do it anymore. That was useful advice to me.

Yo Vickles; How would I handle it? Like Shakespeare asid, "To thine ownself be true." Like Jesus said, "Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Being black, one gets more that his fair share of the types of injustices you guys have recounted. Reading through the thread, I found myself saying, "been there, done that, tried this, that, & experienced that too," to just about everything that was said. I'd agree that being in TWI as young as a lot of us where did us an injustice when it comes to navigating through rough waters. They were very deficient when it came to teaching and modeling people skills. "Just pray about it." Or "believe for them to see what's best..." just doesn't always cut it as far as deterring or even squelching an attack. You really must see it as an attack, because when you're out on the street w/ no paycheck "because" of stuff you didn't do... what's the difference? Sure. God IS in control, He DOES have your back, but we are laborers TOGETHER w/Him. Joseph, Daniel, Shadrack, Mesheck & Abednego are some of my favorite Bible heroes. However.... Joseph DID get thrown in the klink. Daniel can tell you what lion's breath smells like & S,M, & A DID bet thrown into the burning, FIREY, FURNACE.... It was HOT in there, lions are SCARY, and Joseph SUFFERED in that hell hole of a jail. What I like most about those three examples is how wise Joseph was WHILE he was in the jail; Danile was like, "You're just gonna have to throw me to the lions then." Shadrach & Co. said, "We will NOT bow and we WILL NOT burn. They all together show a cross-section of how God thinks we should handle crap like this. What we see is they all were TRUE to themselves in the way they served God, not men, in light of situations where they were NOT being treated fairly. The outcome was the same for all of them as God worked "all things together for good" in their lives. If you've truly done your best to be your best in that position and they get rid of you (ie. "jail" you, "feed you to the lions," or "throw you in the fire.") rest assurred. BE as wise as you can. Make adept moves in the situation, fear not! The lions won't eat you and if you don't BOW, you will NOT burn; no matter how much you suffer, tremble or sweat. God WILL prosper you. I've actually had it happen to me that an agency who refused to even INTERVIEW me, much less hire me, later came knocking on my door when I was running a dept. in a BIG company where I was "the guy" they had to pitch their services to & the ONLY one to whom the decision to hire THEM fell on. I must admit it was SOOOO much fun when the agency head said to me, "How come I never heard of you? We were looking for an art director not too long ago." I smiled. Then he said, "Hey I've seen that logo before...." It was my personal business card from my portfolio. "You saw that when I applied for your art director position... "not too long ago...." I didn't even get an interview." His face and the tone of the way he said, "Oh...." Really felt good...maybe that was what God was talking about? I don't know. Wasn't gloating but it sure felt ok at that moment. The meeting ended shortly after that. Foundationally, my experience has taught that a combination of Shakespeare's, "To thine ownself be true" and Jesus' "Be wise as serpents yet harmless as doves." is what to do. Practically speaking; while being true to one's self, wisdon requires that we objectively evaluate our own OTJ performance carefully considering how much fuel we may inadvertently be throwing on the agressors "fire." You have obviously done that and determined that the *itch, is treating you unjustly. You have as much right to YOUR job as anyone, which includes making whatever mistakes you may (and will) as human make. Be true to yourself. Part of the "insidiousity" (hey, I like to make up words :)-->0 of the thing is that if you spend too much time doing (wise) CYA manuevers, your own actions in this will SURELY be used against you. Do your job to the best of your ability, while watching out of one eye, knowing that you are being watched. Ads some stress, yes, but you've already determined this is a job you want to keep. I used to do the "My superior work will surely show all concerned that I'm worthy...." Problem with this is that they ones who would decide to let YOU go are usually the one's who see your superior work the least. The aggressor is counting on the "squeaking wheel theory." You can't "unsqueak their wheel" by polishing the chrome on your performance. As gross as this may sound, Rosalie Rivenbark, (of all people) taught me a counter move to this problem while I was experienceing the same type of thing at HQ. She said this, "It doesn't matter how well you perform on a day to day basis when it comes to things like this. They are using a few well placed "bombs" (their disparaging comments/behaviors against you) to destroy your consistent good works. You must counter with a few well placed "bombs" on the good side. The people who do the final evaluating only see & hear the explosions." Anybody know a better serpent than RR? SO. Not being one to toot my own horn. I found myself constantly called onto the carpet having to roll out a long list of stuff to counter their obvious BS. When I began to take the opportunity to selectively "toot," I was better able to poo poo shadows of dispersion. Others, who'd heard the 'toot's would then be more easliy able to discern the BS attack cause they had their own evidence to the contrary. I HATE doing stuff like that, but hey. The nature of the beast is that the ones with the power NEED to know, on their own that you're cool. A person really adept at the attack mode stuff will manipulate you into looking like "all of the above" on what THEY say you are IF you wait until "the carpet" to "retaliate. Then they put you on your heels. In my Ad Agency, our motto is "Business is like war and the battlefield is in the minds of your constituents." To be successful in business one must do specific things to shape the thinking of certain people. You're never gonna change her thinking, as her problem is not with you, its with her. (Romans 2:1,2) When people do stuff like what they've done to you it is ALWAYS a reflection of themselves. Their groundless accusations paint a clear picture of who they are & where they're coming from. You can read them in what they say about you. Unfortunately you must alter a little of your approach in how you do things to ward off her attack. Don't buy into the attack though. We ALL have room for improvement. If you can imporove, by all means do so. Then your enhanced performance will make you MORE of an asset to the company. She won't go away. It WAS a power play where she called on the boss's allegiance, He told her, "Well see ya." There is something, in her mind, perhaps imagined, that allowed her to think she could pull that. Just drop a few well placed "bombs" and go about your lovable way. Take a time or two and "toot" about how you took a suggestion now you finished this thing that much quicker, or did the other thing SOO much better. You may feel a little stupid at times, It may grate against your ego to "thank" her for her unjust criticism and say, "I'll take that under advisement." (Smiling while thinking, "you dirty witch. She's obviously pretty stupid if she doesn't love you like we do! Watch your back too. Cause it is what you represent to her that fuels her, not what you do. Your task is to do what you do without beign deterred from who you are. You "keep doin' your thang girl!" Later baby.

BTW What is way GB?

Yeah, what He said.... Some will miss you message if they don't like the package.

We rebelled agains that Broccoli/ millet caserole. Basically nobody would eat it. If you've never seen it, it was a lime green scoop of plastic lookin' stuff with chunks of brocolli stickin' out of it. It kinda looked like a huge scoop of bumpy, grainy IceCream, but ice cream, it wasn't. They told us it was really healthy, like a whole meals worth of nutrition in that scoop. We didn't care how healthy it was. We weren't eatin' it. One day at supper again, we were all sittin around laughing & stuff (we had time cause, like NOBODY was eating). They made the announcement over the loudspeaker that we all craved. It was, in our minds, reserved for GOOD food. "Seconds ARE available..." A wave of hysterical laughter rolled through the lunchroom. People were mimicing the loudspeaker saying stuff like, "If ONLY we were EATING it!" It was hilarious. A few of the really big. "I'll eat ANYTHING I can chew" guys actually got up from their tables & started walking up to get more food, like one at a time. We started cheering... and applauding! Each time louder than the last. Guys started taking bows and holding up bowls of the stuff. Catcalls, Cheers, lots of other loud stuff followed. The guys started giving speeches, talking like D@ve B, JAL and others. We were rolling. Then JAL heard the noise & came up from his apartment. He yelled at us. We shut up. He said we were upsetting the kitchen staff who worked so hard to prepare these meals that were keeping us alive. We started giggling. "WHAT?" JAL said in his snarly voice. "What's so funny?...." A voice came out of the sea of giggles. "Not with THAT stuff." another voice said. "I'd rather die...." We burst out laughing again. "Incouragable." JAL mumbled.........