HCW

Mr. Hammeroni: I agree w/ you here. Actually, I could never wrap my brain around that cancer being a devil spirit stuff, as in a person who has it is possessed, especially. Made no sense actually. From the first time I heard it, I felt it contradicted the fact that people CANNOT be possessed against their will. I'm constantly astounded with how many folks say that TWI people played the "you're possessed" card. Seems like any time "they" didn't like you for any reason YOU are possessed. (When that happens, its usually a sign that the one "crying wolf!" is feeling inadequate in themselves to deal w/ you & trying to exert some "power" over you to bend you to their, inadequate will.) INFORMING a well-intentioned believer the THEY are possessed is NOT sensible from ANY p.o.v. I can see. The Bible speaks of believers as being a "sweet smelling savor of Christ." It also speaks of how when Jesus just approached possessed people their spirits caused their hosts to fall at Jesus' feet & beg mercy from him. We were taught, and I believe, that a believer walking with God in Christ in him can cast out spirits from a distance, as they, the spirits "smell" you before you even get close enough to "discern" them. It made absolutely NO sense that a devil spirit could "bum-rush" a believer and possess them against their will and knowledge. Especially so, thinking that a spirit can somehow "inject their essence into a human being's body and grow as a disease that has "life in itself." I always viewed that as physicians not knowing enough about cancer and TWI not knowing enough about devil spirits to come up w/ a solution that made sense.

Whenever I've read the term "corpse" I've never actually taken it as an insult. I've even chuckled over its use as I fell like I understand the intent behind it. I hope you guys see, & I think you do, that my point regarding it has more to do with the user using the term than the term "using" a user. I can actually see a bit of humor in its use. AND it does appear an accurate term when looking from a certain POV. Still it does "sting" me a bit each time I see it. Probably because my personal POV is that my blood boils when I hear of things like you, Galen, just posted of. Any good thing any good person did doesn't & can't negate the "step aside, let a "man" step in mentality some Corps presented you with. For that I apologise. The Way Corps wasn't supposed to be about that. I would dare say the majority of folks weren't like that. I would also say that about 75% (I don't remember the exact figures) of active Corps were kicked out in the POP fallout. I'm saddened myself that you went through the experiences you mentioned. Agreed. I wish no one had a wish like that. I don't feel your exposure was all that limited. IMO there is no excuse for that happening once. I for one will never negate your experiences. Even if I disagree with your opinions from time to time I'll never say your experiences are invalid. I'll have to let socks speak for himself about where he served & what he did. In my experience about 98% of the rank & file believers I met were good people who were searching for God. I'm sure you're one of them. God bless you all.

This may be an interesting sidelight.... One of my fondest TWI memories is one beautiful Saturday evening at the Snack Shop in the courtyard near the Wierwille home @ HQ. A group of us were hanging out eatin' ice cream & bug juice. There was a girl from Norway, Great Britain, a guy from Germany, someone from Iran, South America, Mexico, India, New York, Texas and me, from Pittsburgh. Lots of foriegn countries.... :)--> I thougt it was SO cool, & started asking around, "How do you say (things like Ice cream, tree, table, chair, barn, car, etc.) in YOUR language. It was amazing how many different sounds we made, even speaking English with different accents, all oth these different "words" meant the SAME thing. We had about eight different languages goin' on. That taught me something about God communicating to us in terms of how much a specific sound meant to HIM when it came to communicating His thoughs to us. AND. It wasn't published very widely but we ran into MAJOR problems when it came to translating PFAL, et al. into other languages. International Outreach Dept. got into some extreme situations as there were too few people in the ministry fluent ENOUGH in these languages to communicate subtle nuances. People were reporting that some of the translations work had TWI teachings saying some MAJOR politically incorrect, and sometimes even expletively vulgar statements to people. They finally backed of and abandoned some major translations work because of this. Dealing with specific words can be interesting stuff. I don't have all the answers....

I think it was socks who mentioned something to the effect of PFAL becoming a religion unto itself.... We we had it drilled into our head about this precise wording of the Word stuff, remember? I had a little trouble, myself with writing "in any way," myself. I asked myself the SAME question, while I was studying it. I went looking for other verses that would say precisely that. THen that pesky logic thing, I'm prone to (Raf :D-->) hit me again... IF there is ONLY one usage of this Hebrew wrod for uncleanness listed in the Bible, HOW am I gonna find it somewhere else? Then it hit me again - - "Unclean and impure in a Levitical and moral sense."... would that not include EVERYTHING that would be unclean and impure to the Levitical law? How would it be "this unclean and impure thing is 'ok' but THAT one it a NO no?" I'm not sure. It had to do with broken covenant type stuff (contriety to comunion withhim that is holy). Maybe the sense of it might be better communicated by any immoral thing in violation of the marriage covenant. (???) I think any wife could make a strong case before God for writing a bill of divorcement that stated a husband did any abusive thing to her. I think ANY and EVERY abusive thing would fall far short of Ephesians, "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and GAVE HIMSELF for it." Wouldn't you agree? I do think that abusiveness could certainly be classified as "morally dirty" by any standard.

Sure Pat: I came up with the quote, based on Deuteronomy 24:1; "When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house." The word "uncleanness" above is the Hebrew "ervath dabar" which, according to Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies is: Chiefly spoken of Levitical uncleanness, both of persons and animals.... Unclean and impure in a Levitical and moral sense. It speaks the greatest pollution, the sordid and filthiness of habit, the gore of blood, the muddiness or water, whatsoever is loathsome or unlovely, noisome or unsightly, all these meet in and make up the meaning of this word. It implies unsuitableness or contriety to communion with him that is holy." Props to Galen for first bringing this scripture to the conversation here. :)--> This scripture is very direct and plain spoken concerning Gods POV for allowing divorce. Levitical uncleanness can easliy be defined Biblically as things God would consider as immoral. I did some cross referencing on the subject because this is the only verse the particular Hebrew words I found listed as being in. The subject, however was also covered "prior" to Dueteronomy, in Numbers 5 where the law is talking about "the spirit of jealousy" in terms of " V:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled ," In "V:19 ...And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband...." The Deuteronomy verse "uncleanness" includes sexual but is not limited to it. The Numbers verses speak of sexual inpropriety as "going aside into "uncleanness." Further study of the Levitical law would show how God considers things other than adultry as unclean. I just didn't take the time to delineate them. One of the worst errors in PFAL'ian logic is how TWI handles the Old Testament. Christ's being the "end of the law" et. al. means that he, as our passover lamb, is the once and for all sacrifice that ends God's requirements that we perform all of the rituals of the law. He was the completion of the law & its requirements, the payment in full for all of the things man once had to do which were "partial payments." PFAL'ian logic taught it as Christ was the NEGATION of the law, as in erasing it as if he burned it and it doesn't exist anymore. EXCEPT when it came down to giving money... "If you don't give beyond the tithe, God won't even SPIT in your direction...." They taught that since the law was OVER, as in GONE, the very clear penalties for adultry, didn't exist anymore. They created a loophole that since the stuff in the new testament REFERS back to Old Testament law (and therefore does not detail it) they could say, "See it doesn't say "that" in the New Testament. The PFAL'ian logic of administrations: "this is written TO the Church of the Body in OUR Administration" and the Old Testament was written "only" FOR OUR LEARNING, "that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures, might have hope." That stuff perverted the fact that Jesus CONSTANTLY referred to OT stuff, prophecies, etc. as "present day truth." They said that even Jesus' time was only for us to learn from but not "official DOCTRINE" for us in the administration of God's grace. All the while ZOOMING past Paul's YELLING at US, the church of the Body in Corinthians, "Is GRACE therefore a license to SIN?!!! GOD forBID!!" They just focused a sharp beam on the "fornication & unbelieving spouse leaving" as the ONLY "Godly reasons" for divorce. Actually, there IS no GODLY reason for divorce. God's central reasoning for divorce is (Matt 19:8) "...because of the hardness of YOUR hearts..." hardly Godly. There is nothing Godly about "uncleanness" AND the "fornication" of Verse 19 is not limited to sexual unfaithfulness. AND. Don't forget Matthew 5:27, 28 In short; Biblically although fornication/adultry is uncleanness all uncleanness in not fornication.

I'd like to chime in on what socks had said about The Way Corps and Galen's consitent use of the term "corpse." I doubt that socks knows this but his life was an inspiration to me that helped me towards developing my own God-given talents. I was one of the thousands of people his personal ministry touched and had a very positive effect on. There are many many people born again today that made the decision to do so in direct respsonse to what they saw of socks. He is quite simple one of the finest people ever to wear the gree nametag. Referring to him as "corpse" speaks death upon him as life & death ARE in the power of the tongue. It does the same to all of us who got involved in the WC as preparation for "A Lifetime of Christian Service." Whereas one cannot diminish the acoomplishments of those of us who really gave of our lives in service (there IS a JOY in service) to God's people, making such a reference as "corpse" like that ONLY dimishes the USER of the term. "It is not what goes in to the mouth of a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of his mouth, that is what defiles a man." Jesus taught me that. I now see, at this point in my spiritual growth & development, that when I allow how I feel ablout what an "a$$hole" did to me to effect my life in ANY way - - the "a$$hole" wins. Galen, I was surprised to see your statement: How could you NOT insult many Corps grads? The very nature of terming us ALL as "corpse" because of the actions of a FEW that WE would rebuke as strongly as you, IS - - insulting. Do you really expect us to negate the insulting NATURE of your label and look deeper to the chewy caramel center of your words? It is popular to say today in terms of loving relationships, "You had me at hello..." In terms of your constant and consistant use of the term; whenever I see it, the post, "LOSES me at "corpse." What saddens me though, is that apparently some do not hold fast to the truth that what comes out of their own mouth defies them in the eyes of others. If someone does something that angers a person and the victim changes their life behind it the victim has given their power to the one who "angers them." IMO, referring to ALL WC as Corpse represents a change in thinking resulting from the actions of theose referred to as "corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes." If you let them change you, who is in control? THEY, the "totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes" are. They are what they are, what they were they were. Now here today, because you are mad at THEM, you insult socks and me, and all others who fall into the category as sock said.... I find it hard to believe that you, Galen, don't see the undeniable nature of the wrongs done you by certain individuals gives you no right speak death to ALL who were involved in the same schooling as the "a$$holes." You realluy don't see that your speaking hate-filled words labels YOU as a "hater?" Hmmm.... come on now........

Mike, as Janet Jackson said, consider PFAL.... What has it done for you late-ly?

BTW. I'm twice divorced too. I went through hell myself, giving literally everything I had to try & save the marriages & be faithful to my vows. I have a goood idea how you guys must have felt in your situations. I feel for you & your pain. Hope all is better for you now.

Actually, according to Young's, there is one usage of the Hebrew "ervath dabar" which means an unclean thing or matter. The one time is right there in Deuteronomy 24:1. My Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies" says it is: "Chiefly spoken of Levitical uncleanness, both of persons and animals.... Unclean and impure in a Levitical and moral sense. It speaks the greatest pollution, the sordid and filthiness of habit, the gore of blood, the muddiness or water, whatsoever is loathsome or unlovely, noisome or unsightly, all these meet in and make up the meaning of this word. It implies unsuitableness or contriety to communion with him that is holy." The NIV & some other english version translate it "something indecent" or "some indecency" and the NASB cross references it to Numbers 5:12 which says: "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, V:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, " Generally speaking, it seems like when the Bible speaks of uncleanness in the context of a marriage, it's speaking of sexuality - adultry. Adultry certainly defiles the purpetrator, makin gthem "unclean" in God's eyes concerning the marrage. I'd say that the uncleanness of Deut 24:1 could be stated as meaning, in modern day English, "including, but not limited to sexually...." I'm sure it also included spiritual uncleanness. which would include possession (TRUE possession, not the TWI version; "I don't like you or what you've said or done, so YOU are possessed!"). It ALSO includes immoral uncleanness which all of the above mentioned abuses would certainly fall under. In other words... NO. God would NOT have a spouse to stay in a morally abusive realtionship, even if it is a marriage. Um... ah, is ANY abuse moral? I think NOT. In fact, what God said, even though He HATES divorce he said, "If you find your spouse to be morally unclean, in ANY way, write up the divorce papers, put them right in their hand and put THEM out of the house. Fast forward to 1 Corinthians 7 where "unbelieving" and "believeth not" is simply "apistos" or UN-faithful, unfaithful to GOD that is.... one who does not believe (pistis) God - - with their actions or way of life. That is different than a believer who, like all others, sins (or is unfaithful) at times. God hates divorce because of the damage it does to all involved. He loves US, He would not, nor did He ever, instruct us to submit to a morally abusive situation. Most certainly when it comes to His institution of marriage, which unites two individuals the SAME way as He unites Christ (the bridegroom) with us ALL, (his bride) the body of Christ. God originally told people they could divorce for "uncleanness" which covered a gamut of moral behavior. The Pharasees KNEW the law listed above and (Matt 19:3) tryed to tempt Jesus saying, "... can you divorce "for EVERY cause??? Huh? Huh? ? ? ?" "No." said Jesus, "Not EVERY cause, In all of your "reading" haven't you read that if a man & woman have done it God's way (by cleaving unto his wife), they are no longer two people, but ONE person that GOD has made ONE FLESH. You CAN'T split them up, because GOD, himself, put them together." Pharasees then say: "OK, smarty pants, know it all.... WHY then did MOSES (who REALLY knew God) command people to server her with the Divorce papers & put the b!$@h out???" Jesus: "Moses allowed you to put your wives away because your hearts were corrupted and hardened (you weren't cleaving unto your wives you were abusing each other!) It wasn't like that in the beginning because people were closer to GOD!" "I'm telling you now, If you just kick your spouse out for any old reason but fornication, you're STILL married to them! Marry sombody else (like you guys do all the time) and YOU commit ADULTRY!" What you see is a progression from "the beginning" when basically everyone was "a believer" to where people fell away from a God & hardened their hearts to him in a God-based society, all the way to a time when people who were ALREADY married became converts, coming BACK to God. There were times in the first centuries, as there are today, when only one spouse converts to the faith and the other is UN-faithful. God said, "You can't just leave 'em because of THAT, how do YOU know you won't save THEM?" "BUT. If the un-faith-full one wants to leave YOU, (because of your faith) you're free to let them go, DON'T fight with them, let 'em GO! God called you to peace, remember?" God also told us in James that faith without the corresponding works (life-style) is DEAD. He also told us that anyone who doesn't behave in a loving manner towards his brother and says he's a believer is LIAR, and the truth does NOT live in him. How much MORE does that refer to a husband, whom God cammands to LOVE his wife as he does his own body - - and a wife who is commanded to just "respond accordingly" to the love from her husband (respond accordingly = submit). He also told us NOT to marry unbelievers IF we're already a believer because we're asking for a difficult situation. If your husband is UN-faithful to loving you as he loves himself, he places himself in the UNCLEAN category from Deuteronomy - you can serve 'em & put 'em out. A wife found morally unclean... you can write the papers, give 'em to her & then give HER the boot. God made provision for us in light of where culture has come. We have the right to fight for our marriages... IF we find the spouse "clean," otherwise we can get rid of 'em, no sweat from Him. I don't see the scriptures saying, "If the abusive jerk is cool with living with you, tough, you married 'em - - STAY."

I'm thinking it may be a "revenge of the nerd" thing. Apparently there is no end.

NO. They would not become a part of God's word, they would be some things that God told one of his children on a given day that might be of benefit to others of his children. The problem I see with your POV on this topic is how you consistently ignore the personal, Fatherly, relationship God has with each and every one of his children. You confuse and then blur the line between things God tells us and TERM them, "revelation" and "God-Breathed." All of your years of study have not yet allowed you to discern the simplicity that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself. You also ignore the "unalterable truths" you speak so often of. "Of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." It is an unalterable truth that you can tell what one thinks by what he does. In other words, people DO what they WANT to do. IF you truly WANTED us to get "the greatness of PFAL" AND... You truly felt you "have" it, you would tirelessly teach THAT. Instead you IGNORE more unalterable truth while you continue an argument that even should you win, it is pointless. Ok. Mike. PFAL is God-Breathed. You win. WHAT has changed? You are SO blind to the fact that WHERE something came from, or WHO it came out of has NOTHING to do with WHAT it IS! PFAL - - it IS what is IS what it IS, especially IF God made it that way. You discredit the very thing you say is so near and dear to your heart. Had you ACTUALLY mastered the PFAL materials, you would certainly remember that some of the abundance of scripture in the materials says the following of people who were "ganging up - piling on" those who were boldly and consistently bearing God's truth to other who didn't want to hear it. PFAL taught ME how apostles were called on the carpet and a wise person said, "Think about what you're doing to these men, LEAVE THEM ALONE... because if what they are saying is of God, you CANNOT fight against it. Fighting agains God almighty is futile." I've engaged you in this debate to this point Mike, to give you an opportunity to SHOW - - ILLUSTRATE your mastery of PFAL. I wanted to see if you would reflect the HEART Vpw's feebile voice reflected in his, as you put it, last lost teaching. By your fruit, people SHALL know you (yet another of those pesky "unalterable" truths). The "fruit" i.e. the RESULTS your life shows people indicates who and what you really are. Your response over years is consistent. I don't need to repeat it. It is crystal clear to all who read this thread. AS Mr. T said. I pity the fool.

Mr. Hammeroni: I see you graciously stopped at strike 2. That speaks volumes to me as to where your heart is at - - in a very good place. What you said reminded me of what I personally felt was THE most shocking thing I learned about being "a minister." I've rarely shared this incident that happened to me, and NEVER shared it publickly. I'm feeling, in my spirit, however than now is the time to do it. Hear me out on this one, OK? I think it has relevance both to your statements above AND this whole "debate." At least I can see how it might fit. Let me start by saying that when I heard of the things you mentioned in terms of "ownership" of people in the flock because "the ministry" taught them "the word." Personally, at least on the surface, I didn't see it that way. I thought I was seeing "family." I thought I was seeing reverence to "the man who fathered us in the word" similarly to who I view elders in my "blood family." In my family we give great respect upward across generational lines. Basically any person in a generation "above" your own deserves a distinct level of deference and respect FIRST, JUST because of WHAT they are, then WHO. I realize now, however, that MY personal POV caused me to gloss over what I actually saw that I was seeing then. (Does that make sense?) Enough bush beating.... The shocking thing happened one night on my interim year in the Corps. As a WOW family coordinator I did a LOT of witnessing, twig leadin', teaching, and ministering to a bunch of folks. My WOW family would frequent some of the local haunts & we'd go dancing a good bit. There was one place in particular where I had been witnessing to "THE hot chick." Every place has at least one, the girl(s) who guys stand at the edge of the dance floor & salivate over while she dances with whomever they WISH they were. Since I was "the Corps guy" my WOW's (the family was all guys) would playfully tease me, "I bet you can't get HER "in the Word." .... Stuff like that. I won their respect as well as the rest of the local guys who were all afraid to approach said hot chick when a group of guys called me out, like. "Go dance with her, she wants you." Macho BS stuff like that. After being "shot down & burning in flames" on a few occasions. I did get to actually witness to her and talk to her. After w hile we became acquaintences and I'd dance with her when she was there & we came, etc. She was really HOT, I must admit. I wasn't about all that, tempted, you better believe, but I was trying to be the good example to my guys. One night she asked me for a ride home after the club & as we were driving she said, "Pull into that parking lot over there." I did. She then whipped her loose fitting blouse up over her head, exposing her really hot bare boobies and looked me right in the eye, hotly. She had my undivided, (atten-HUT!!!) attention, to say the least! "What are you DOING?!!!" was the only thing I could choke out as the blood drained from my brain. "Getting more comfortable. We're going to your house, Right?" SHe was working on scooting out of her jeans, as she had even brough an overnight bag with a sexy nightgown and change of clothes. The kicker is this. The point of this story is.... After I was able to convince her that she should put her shirt back on (it was a BIT of a distraction duncha know?) I asked her WHY was she so ready to throw herself at me like that. My shock came when she said, "You were SO nice to me. You taught me some things I really needed. I was just trying to say thank you in the best way I knew how." My warped sense of humor kicked in as I thought, "seeing those boobies was QUITE a TREAT!" No. I didn't SAY that to her. I told her how she had so much more to offer and that she should see herself as more than a thing to have sex with, etc. The central point is that I was shocked by how pervasive it was that people would think that a way to say thanks for the word was to "give up the bootie." I'm now thinking that Vw, et. al saw this long before I & actually took a proactive advantage of it even to the point of placing subliminal messages in the teachings targeting people who had any kind of tendanceies in that direction. Unfortunately so many who leaned that way (on the victim side) were actual victims in their lives outside TWI. VP & company did PRECISELY the same thing to then as he talked about in PFAL concerning the drunk who told him, "I came here to get OUT of what I'm into, all you did is drive me down further into it." Strike three.

THEN there is the use of "qualifier" words and CYA phrases like, "I don't THINK I wrote..." Gee whiz Mike. If you're gonna be bold enough to take a one man stand on this, take a fricken STAND, man. Like this: You, Mike, are an absolute liar. You don't "know" any of Vp's editors. You've been rejected by every one of them you've contacted. You don't even give ONE damn, really, about this whole "God-breathed PFAL" thing. You are only using it as a means to get us to talk to you. You are afraid that if you were to give up this "debate" nobody would talk to you. You are certain that giving up the debate would remove you from the preeminent position you feel you hold by having a number of widely respected GS posters address you personally on a regular basis. You are more concerned with keeping the debate going than you are with "winning" it. You fear in your heart is that "stopping the madness" will cause you to fade back into obsurity. You are fueled to continue by your endless desire for simple contact with other human beings which you feel you have been unfairly deprived of (to the point where you consider it a type of abuse). I guess you've got some more homework to do now, huh?

Hmmm. . . . You've been wanting for two full years to say PFAL is the NEW Bible from God. Yet you say: Actually I didn't lsten to anything but what YOU wrote, Mike. Hmmm... an apparent contradiction.... To quote Vp, "SOMEbody's GOT to be a liar." BUT Both statements were YOUR's Mike. Evidently you're lying OR you've forgotten what YOU've written. Quite the "Catch 22." If you say you're NOT lying... you MUST admit that you didn't recall that you DID and have repeatedly said that PFAL is a replacement for the Bible. Not only have you said it, You've also DESIRED to say it for more than 2 years now. IF you DID, in fact, recall that you wrote about PFAL being the NEW Bible (as in replacement) Bible, then you MUST admit that you LIED when you said you don't THINK you've ever said that. But you won't will you? You won't do either. You will simply continue to travel back and forward in time and change what you said THEN to what you are saying NOW. I AM learning from you Mike. Here's what I've learned how to do. "I didn't say then what YOU thought you read. For if you had read what you read with the proper attitude of meekness, fully utilizing your new set of tools from Vp's God-breathed gift of God's blessing to us all, called PFAL; said utilization would have certainly shown you how what you thought you read then IS really what I'm saying to you now." How's that Raf? I really had to turn off my brain to get to that level of "Mikedness." Or is it "Mik-roprosity?"

That's right; TIME TRAVEL.

In the old days HE and OTHERS leaned a certain way but now, he did not agree that Dr's written claim was true. I see how Mike has also not discovered, but has become able to utilize time travel in his quest.

Yeah Raf. I see. I'm leaning in that direction too.

Ok Raf. My Brain is now turned off. Yes Mike. You're right. We all willingly forget how much scripture you ingest on a daily basis. That may be, however more of a testament to how little we think about you than what we think of your study habits.

You know? I just finished a project & I have some time... Actually, Mike had sent me an email a couple of weeks ago with the claiam that Vp had said on that page that his works were God Breathed. It was Mike's response to what I said about that page that started me on my "this is insanity" tip. The chapter, six, of PFAL where page 83 is found is about SCRIPTURE. The opening sentance of the chapter is: "After establishing how the Word of God came into existence, the next step in our building process is to find out what is the function of His Word." Vp mentions 2 Timothy 3:16, THEN goes on to say "All scripture from Genesis to Revelation..." Next paragraph (pg 82) starts with: "Many times a critic of the Bible comes along and says, "Well the Bible is not true.... the Bible really is just another book along with thte rest of them." The senctence that is on top of pg 83 says: "This is why the critic who comes from outside to the Word of God has no footing to stand on to judge The Word because The Word has already judged him." Apparently, Mike is using this clause; "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..." to say that Vp said his work was, in fact God-breathed. It just doesn't say that. The paragraph on pg 83 starts with "The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind or theory or ideology." The same paragraph ends with "... but the Scriptures - they are God Breathed." This is AFTER he listed himself among others whose work is NOT the Scriptures. Then the next page, "why doesn't Mike read the next page?" It reads: "Jesus gave then the words which God gave to Him, the Scriptures, the Word of God." "You come to the Word of God and let it speak for itself and then you reevaluate and readapt your living to the integrity and accuracy of God's Word." You can't change the context of the statement into saying there is some hidden message saying this PFAL book is a God-breathed replacement for the scriptures. Clearly Vp is saying it is NOT God breathed, His statement simply does not eliminate the possibility that God would work in him another time. The word necessarily was a qualifier. Nothing more.

Can anyone explain to me how I could work at TWI HQ for the better part of a decade and it took me being away from "the ministry" for about 17 years before I learned that PFAL was supposedly "God-Breathed?" I tend to agree w/ Mr Hamma. I've never thought of PFAL as anything but "A" Bible class. Certainly not "THE premiere Bible class" nor could it be considered, under ANY circumstances equal to THE word from God. No matter how good it may be, it just isn't complete enough to replace the Bible. The Bible comprehensievly covers EVERY principle involved in this life and gives us a bird's eye view into glimpses of the next life. I HAVE mastered it. Long before Vp's last teaching, "The Joy of Service" which he delivered quite a few times during his last days. It seemed like everywhere he went he was teaching that same teaching. He WAS trying to make a point with it, which I saw as being... "There IS a JOY to service, people." Personally, I've tried to, and feel I've done a decent job of discovering that there IS a JOY to serving people. I heard some things in PFAL that I hadn't heard before. I felt the concept that "Jesus either told the truth or he lied..." was novel. Logical. I had never seen the Bible approached from a logical POV as one would math or science. Most approached God & the Bible & church from a religious POV that I always found idiotic, but I was afraid to challenge it because I was afraid of what God might do to me. Read it for yourself. That was one of the biggest things I got from PFAL. "Chapter & verse, please." was how they spoke of handling religious idiocy. I was willing to accepth the concept that God was smart enough to put "signs," and other things in the Bible that would help each of us to understand His Word & Will for our lives. That's what I took from PFAL each of the 28 times I took it before I stopped counting... Read it for yourself. I now read it for myself. It works. I've found it to be true & faithful. As I've grown in God's word, through careful study I now see how my thinking patterns have changed. I now see statements like, "you own your life to the ministry that taught you the word," as self-serving BS. Life has become, and is becoming more & more simple. God teaches us His word, regardless of the "ministry" we "fellowship" with. You see, the BIBLE tells us that. Reading & studying it DOES actually "renew" one's mind. We must believe IT, not a religious version of it. This is why (IMO) God told us of how "these were more noble than those" ... in that "they searched the scriptures whether thse things were so." AFTER being taught, they "read it for themselves." I figure I can become "more noble" if I read it for myself. ++++++++++++++++++++++ As an artist, I do lots of things that I feel are inspired by God. We all do "God-Inspired" things every day. There may be some God Inspired things about PFAL. Even if so, it is no more God's Word to our generation than (fill in the blank). There is a BIG difference. PFAL is not living and energetic. There is nothing about it that can heal a soul or bring a person from death to eternal life. Its primary redeeming quality is that it MENTIONED God's word. It CONTAINS some scriptures. It talks ABOUT God and how to come to your own understanding of His Word. Those are GOOD things. It also endears people to a man who, evidently, had major spiritual problems of his own. The abuses that lie in the wake of his "ministry" are horribly hideous. I can't blame anyone who feels they have no further need of PFAL. VP hurt many. Thats a BAD thing.

No offense Laleo, but I'm a "he." :)-->

I really don't have anything personal against Mike either; believe it or not. In terms of PFAL there is a lot more that could be discussed about the class rather than whether or not its a replacement for the Bible.

Thanks Chatty & Jbarrax. You know, as long as it was I forgot to add one thing I think is really cool. While sitting through the Answers in Genesis thing a thought "dawned" on me. Youknow how "everybody" in Christendon says "tomorrow isn't promised" to us?? You know they say you should say "Lord willing...." to everthing you say about what you wish to do "tomorrow" right? Well. Tomorrow IS promised to us. God promised us tomorrow in many, many, many, many ways, that we ignore every day. How about in Proverbs, "...length of days will I add to thee, " ...whatsoever he doeth shall prosper...." Then there it is right there in Genesis, "his days shall be 120 years on the earth..." We spend so much time looking for the complexity of God's word we zoom right past the simplest things that need no concordance, greek, hebrew, or anything. People ARE right, however when you figure that the Thief, he who walketh about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.... HE IS the god of THIS world & he doesn't promise us tomorrow.... BTW Jerry. People in my church speak in tongues on a daily basis, these are people who have never heard of PFAL.... There. That one was brief. :)-->

Yeah Mike, what Laleo said. Nice try, electing yourself to prophet status, that is.... I tend to agree w/ Laleo, especially when he mentioned the word "peers." For the record, I don't see myself as higher, or better that you or anyone else here, there or anywhere. I do take my "position" as a WC grad seriously, and therefore define myself in terms of being "leadership" as being your servant (by Jesus' definition). That being said. As it relates to this topic, I've simply been places, seen & heard & participated in things concerning it that you were not privvy to Mike. For example: Did you know that the first class of the year in the Way Corps is an "advanced" version of PFAL (at least it was when I was there & until LCM replaced the class with his own) that included more detail, background & etc. concerning it? Then we took the rest of the series, all of 'em. This is what was going on when, as mentioned on other threads, the disturbing videos (like the dogs having sex w/ women video) were shown. The idea was to give us a more in-depth view of the materials than what was done on the field. Theory being that we, as "leadership," should have the most up-to-date and in-depth knowledge of the materials available. PFAL was the foundation of what we were taught but the center and nucleus of all the teachings revolved around Corps Night. Do you even know what Corps Night is Mike? Just in case. Corps Night was three hours of teaching every Wednesday where VPW would teach a book from the Bible line by line, word by word. In essence it was like having VPW, himself, sit with you and do a word study on every word in whichever book of the Bible he was working on at the time. My Corps group, the 11th, was the last WC group ever to have Vp teach Corps night live to for both of our in-residence years. They would do a conference call and he would teach live to all of the in-residence locations from wherever he was on Wednesday. At the time I felt fortunate that we were taught (again I emphasize one word or phrase at a time) Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians. We also got Philippians and a couple of other short NT books. Speaking of experience, hmm... lets calculate about 46 weeks per year, multiplied by 3 hours per week; by two years equals over 275 HOURS of BIBLE teachings, line by line, word by word; LIVE w/ VPW. Add to this the MONTH we took going through the 40 hours of PFAL, adding the additional, advanced info. Weeks of the Intermediate class, then the Advanced Class, in the Corps with all AC grads. We took the film versions then had extra teachings on stuff, & we had extra videos, presentations, etc. ... ot was the same class as on the field, just additional support & background material. In ALL of that VP never ONCE, no not EVER did he mention, teach, insinuate, intimate or anything else did he EVER even BEGIN to say, in ANY way, shape, or form that his PFAL materials were a God-Breathed replacement for the Bible. Nope, nada, zip, zilcho, nein, nunca, NO!!! Mike, not once. He didn't say we should "master PFAL" either. Nor did he teach us PFAL, line by line, word by word. He didn't even teach PFAL to us live, nor was he even a part of the classes we had in it. Corps night was his baby, it was the last thing he held on to concerning the WC training. Isn't it reasonable to conclude that if the man who taught it didn't refer to it in the manner you do, at the "inner sanctum" - PRIVATE, "leadership only" teachings, that he just din't see it as you do? Come on Mike, there were over 500 people who started out in our group alone. Don't you think one or two would have picked up on this God-Breathed thing? I guess that again, my proximity to Vp, the fact that I sat through well over 200 hours of his most in-depth teachings of the three most important doctrinal epistles in the Bible - - the fact that I still have my notes from all of those teachings, plus written copies of the transcripts from Ephesians & a couple others. Not to mention the transcript from the opening night of our Corps training where the thought was that Vp's teaching that night was SO significat to our futures that the WPD typed every word from the tape and the BOT gave it to us as a gift (stop & breathe HC... :)-->).... I guess that disqualifies me as being able to determine Vp's status w. God. Right? To quote Groucho, "That's the most rediculous thing I ever heard!" - - So, I guess now you won't say it. Experience, documentation! The evidence to refute your position is so overwhelming I don't have words to express, how overwhelming it is. Laleo was wrong about one point. I'm personally more familiar w/ "Dr's" writings than you'll EVER be. If all you have is his books, you only have a fraction of his written materials on the subject. Besides, what you refer to as his "last, lost teaching" wasn't and isn't lost at all. Craig threw it away. I still have my copy of the SNS tape Vp. did. Again, in a box in the basement. I actually agree with some aspect of your position, believe it or not. I do believe that PFAL has a singular significance as far as Bible teachings go. I don't know of another class in the world that empahsizes God's having used figures of speech to aid on the Bible interpreting itself, as PFAL does. I do believe that lack of understanding of figures used in the Bible is a glaring weakness among the organized Christian faith worldwide. I do believe there are some relevant aspects of PFAL that should not be "lost." BUT. I also believe there are others, individuals, and ministries that teach "everything" that PFAL has to offer. I'm taking Alpha right now. It covers everything PFAL does without the TWI spin and is a WONDERFUL foundational class for Christian seeking a personal relationship with God and Jesus our savior. It even goes BEYOND PFAL in that Alpha builds relationship with the people who take the class in a GODLY manner. We eat together before evey session. The teachings are all less than an hour (after 80 minutes human resistance to the message and the ability to actually learn breaks down psychologically). The Alpha class even includes a weekend retreat (which IS an accurate term, no matter what LCM thinks) called "The Holy Spirit and You" where, even though its taught as "gifts of the Spirit" people do actually recieve AND manifest, including speaking in tongues. It happens like it did in Acts. AND while you were preparing your "HCW can't answer my question gloat" statement, HCW was actually attending a two day presentation, that my church hosted (and people from many other churches attended) called "Answers in GENESIS." ( Answers in Genisis . org) AIG is a FANTASTIC organization, "a nondenominational Christian ministry dedicated to upholding the Word of God from the very first verse. The ministry provides seminars, lectures, and programs to the general public, colleges, universities, and churches on the topic of origins. The ministry publishes Creation magazine, and offers numerous books, tapes, and other materials on this and related topics." The two evenings of their presentaion will blow you away with the simplicity of the evidence that the Bible IS true. They Biblically answer questions concerning everything from how old the Earth is, when did dinosaurs live, how did we get "races" of people, Noah & the ark, what about "the missing link," what about fossil evidence of man's evolution from apes, where did eveoltionary teaching come from? etc. The even have a "Creation museum" they are currently building that illustrates what God says about the creation of life & is there life on other planets. In a word its incredible. They even publish their financials on the web free for all to see (they did a little over $9 mil in 2003, btw). So Mike, when I say it's crazy to believe what you do about PFAL, it isn't any personal tirade against you. I wasn't avoiding your rediculous questions. I just have volumes of experiences and information and DOCUMENTATION to the contrary. Unfortunately, perhaps for you Mike, I'll never share one word of my "private conversations w/ VPW" with you concerning his views on PFAL. I could scan pages from my notes from hundreds of hours of "personal" teachings (yes. I believe that if I'm in a room where someone is teaching a group, he's talking to me, personally) and send them to you. But I won't. You have proven to me that this quest has little to nothing to do with PFAL, Vp and definately not God. I no longer see you as a basically good guy who is passionate about his position. Your posts lack the requisite level of honesty for me to see you that way. What I see is your consistant and constant attempts to exault yourself. I see you using PFAL as a means to draw attention to yourself. I see you eloquently but viciously slashing away at all who don't agree to accept your position. I see all those things as demonic behavior, evil at its root and very nature. You speak of God's word with SO much contempt. No bones about it, I do NOT accept your dubious distinction between the Bible and God's word. In fact I see right through it. If we were to reject the Bible, in favor of PFAL, we could NEVER get to God's will via PFAL alone, it simply does not cover ENOUGH of the Bible. I see all of your pedantic ramblings as a means to your expected end - - that we throw away our primary source of acquiring God's word and will for life in favor of a MAN. A man who, at BEST forsook - - threw away his ministry from God ... a chance to "teach The Word as is hasn't been known for centuries." He spit in God's face, threw away any faithfulness he had ever earned, for WHAT? NOOKIE? A chance to "do" some "hot chicks." When I, IF I see VP in heaven I will walk up to him and slap his face - - with my LEFT hand. (IF you've MASTERED PFAL you'll know what that means.... Do YOU?) At the worst Vp was a lecherous, sadistic, freak of a human, as evil as Cain, "that wicked one who slew his own brother." He could very well be the guy who used all of his teachings, life experiences, etc. in a self-serving attempt to "get over" on the whole freakin' world, God included. He could have ONLY been out to exault his own throne above the star, God. For all I know of him, VPW, the times I spent w/ him personally, the 10 years of my life I specifically spent using MY God-Given Talents to build HIS "ministry" et. al. I HONESTLY CAN'T TELL you difinitively, which one he was; The fallen MOG drawn away of his own lusts, enticed; or the personification of evil. The fruit of his life suggests BOTH. SInce "no man knows the things of a man..." I can't say. I can say however, of YOU, Mike, I have NO evidence of fruit from your life other than your trying relentlessly to drag me into your version; your self-constructed, "no lose" (for you); "no win" (for me) debate. All you've done is rebuke and debunk EVERYTHING I've said. No body in a debate is 100% wrong, yet you have not accepted a SINGLE point I've made. You have selectively chosen to address things I've said. All you've done is tell me about a bunch of different ways nobody should believe me. My eye witness account DISQUALIFIES my POV of what I witnessed? INSANE. EVIL. When I told you to stop I was referring to stopping the madness. You rejected even that. In so doing you spouted off with dishonest references to your heresy. That's why others felt they should update me. They wanted me to know what I'm actually dealing with. Trust ME. I KNOW precisely who, or should I say WHAT I'm dealing with. Now I'm REJECTING - - YOU. Get away from me, STAY away from me. Address my posts if you wish. We all already know what you'll say. All you have done with your years spent on this subject it talk yourself into believing it. OF COURSE, if anybody looks at it the same way you do and follws the same path you did they will talk themselves into believing YOUR BS as well. THAT is how brainwashing works! FORCING one's mind down a path of insanity tears away at the sanity, "Don't ye know that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump???" NO. I'm NOT gonna accept your pedantic questions from YOUR point of view and ONLY answer them as YOU say I should. STAY the HELL outta my head. I will ADDRESS your statements, IF and when I want to, IF I want to and will comment on them as I see fit. Like NOW. YES. I DO have a source outside my own brain that guides me. Its called Holy Spirit. Keep your insults in the garage, OK? "Wing it, sming it." There is NO such thing as an unalterable PHYSICAL standard. ALL physical things are temporal and alterable by DEFINITION in that they, as ALL physical things, MY BRAIN included, are in a constant state of deterioration. I am the final judge of NOTHING. However I DO determine what I DO and do NOT believe, and OBEY. GOD told me I can and should do that. He also told me I'd be "more noble than" others IF I searche the SCRIPTURES (not PFAL) whether things I'm taught of Him are so. I do THAT. This is a ...., trick question similar to the ones Satan used to try and trap Jesus in (matthew 4) and the pharasees used elsewhere in the gospels.Can you explain to anyone how the F@$K you can get "a set of authoritive WRITINGS" outside of the physical realm? I perceivest that thou watchest to mucheth STAR TREK. Spirits don't use PENS, you freakin idiot. What in hell do you take me for? (literally.) I'm certainly not EMBARRASSED to say I don't go transportatin' around "other realms" looking for my "only rule for faith & practice." Life isn't Monty Python's search for "The Holy Graile." You make a mockery of God with your rediculous "questions." BESIDES, theat "only rule for faith & practice" thing is NOT Biblical! At best IT is a figure of speech to emphasize the place the Bible should have in our lives above ALL other BOOKS. GOD says, "...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; " (Romans 1:20) THEREFORE; I can learn about invisible things concerning GOD from looking around in the PHYSICAL realm. You can't even SEE spirit anyway, smarty pants. When I read my Bible, God, who is Spirit speaks to me as I read it; via my spirit, His gift to me that gives me LIFE eternal. Spiritual things are LIFE as GOD sees it; one can ONLY receive and then discern spiritual things via the spirit, NOT PFAL, not a Bible or any other book. (1 Corinthians 2:14) However, if one actually IS alive, as in living with Holy Spitit IN him, he can then see, understand, and discern spiritual matters... otherwise Godly spiritual concepts seem foolish to him. That is a mathematically precise statement in that the precise opposite of it is true also. When one DOES have the spirit living in him Godly spiritual things have a "ring" of truth to him. Is YOUR "bell ringin'" Mike? What I find interesting Mike; is how well your God-breathed PFAL thing fits w/ Romans chapter 1:21 - 25 " Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, (thinking PFAL can replace the Bible.) and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, (VPW? Corruptable???) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,(PFAL writings replacing the glory of God's written word) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, (Bible? You don't need no stinking BIBLE!) and worshipped and served the creature (VPW) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." VPW certainly wasn't "blessed for ever." Should I go on? I don't think we want to get into the next steps down from there Mike. The next verses are the inevitable steps down the same path. You're thinking your life would end if you abandon this quest for PFAL? At least you were polite about it. As VP said so often, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth." As it was so eloquently pointed out to you (and YOU avoided addressing...Oh, yeah, YOU're TOO busy, making a living...) YOUR life will not end if you abandon this Mike. You may end the "life" of whatever (or should I say WHOMever) is influencing you, but your life will go on. You could even sign up for an internet dating thing and find someone equally "nerdy" as yourself in every way. (God knows they are out there.) You may just hit the jackpot & find someone who'll be willing to touch you... hold your hand as you walk on one of those beautiful San Diego beaches. Nerds kiss & even "do the nasty," too if you spent HALF of your online time on "eHarmony.com" Who knows? You could find "Mrs. Mikey" in no time. People do it every day, you know. A suggestion: Don't tell her you think that if we get a quorem of people who've "mastered" (at your request) a discontinued Bible Class (that people only offer under direct threat of copyright infringement by the dangerous CULT who owns it but won't offer it themselves) the the quorem of enough folks will ring a bell in heaven and Jesus will come back with an orange hard-cover book in his hands. (Not to mention charts in the clouds, corny angel jokes and stories of scarlet drapes om the throneroom of heaven.) Mrs. "just as wrong as everybody else" just MIGHT not be able to get with all that. GEEZ. My longest post ever. I guess I DIDN'T want to be brief, Huh?

Uh... I dunno Mike, get LAID, maybe? Rejoin life on THIS planet? Learn English?