HCW

Yes. Inside the Corps Chalet... Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. Rough hewn logs for walls with grout. Impossible to clean even though they coated them with some polyurethane stuff. The logs were thick enough that each one from floor to ceiling would get dusty. Somebody had to figure out some way to brush & vacuum them. Glad it wsan't me.

Yet another TWI thing gone bad... You can lay this one squarely at LCM's feet. Sorry they did that to you. The idea for the auditorium was a long time coming, many years before it was built. Don't hate me, but I helped design & build it. The last big thing that Vp did with the last years of his health was oversee building Way Productions. He always felt that quality production was an invaluable aid in presenting the word to people. Through the mid 70's to mid 80's Way productions had grown to where we had many world class performers, in just about every aspect of production and we'd outgrown The Way Cultural Center ( a church building TWI bough in New Bremen). Vp pushed the performers and us technicians and everyone involved to settle for nothing less than top quality stuff. TWI put together "all star" bands that covered the gamut of music. He felt during the late 70's that the US was turning toward country music as the "main" big music thing and replaced "Joyful Noise" as the ministry flagship band with "Branded." The also did a world wide contest for the best male quartet-type singers & came up with "The Victors," We had "New Horizons;" a group of Afro-American males doing R&B with "Temptations-type" choreography, The Way International Orchestra and TAKIT, doing rock & roll type stuff. Skip Mesquite and Dean Ellenwood were from Joyful Noise, Skip, Danny Hoefer and David Garabaldi Were part of Tower of Power, probably THE most respected funk band of their time. These guys were pros, all of whom were VERY good. VP had begun a PR campaign of his own, sans the big TWI machine and was orchestrating inviting local government and corporate officials to the "Saturday Night Doo" each week at the WCC in New Bremen. They began coming, as the facility was in NB and more & more of them began a buzz around the area at how good the productions were and nobody tried to "convert" them. This started a true, "come and see evangelism" approach for TWI. It was successful. Vp had been writing his "By The Way" articles, a weekly column in the St Marys Evening Leader. Each Article was tagged with "You are Welcome at The Way." More & more locals were coming in for the weekend tours of the grounds and more & more were showing up for the Doo's. Sometimes so many locals would come that there was little to no room for us believers to see the productions. Which were quite good, I worked on more than a few of them myself. We also had The Way Dance Company and did our flagship production "High Country Caravan" 13 week television variety show, a sort of cross between "Hee Haw" and the "Sonny & Cher," "Carol Burnett Show" or other variety show format shows that were popular on TV then. HCC was sucessful too, We wound up doing at least two seasons as I remember. It was distributed nationally on some cable stations, we played the shows in Hospitals, nursing homes, & other places wherever people would want it. It got good reviews and blessed a lot of people. The auditorium was a natural next step from that success. We need a showcase spot to showcase the talent of the ministry for outreach, with the spoken word of God being at the center of it all. Given the success of the "come and see" stuff, part of the vision for the auditorium was to provide a first class venue for traveling Broadway shows and other regional theatre events, concerts, and any type of event that needed a theatre to put on their show. We talked about allowing the local high schools to put on their school plays there, giving them a chance to perform in a world class "house." There were plans to approach Broadway production companies and have then put our auditorium on their tour schedules. The concept was to expand our approximately 50 week Saturday Night Doo schedule to include the largest variety of top quality shows we could get. I had spoken up in staff meeting about how valid that concept was because I had "been THERE, done THAT" same thing in HIGH School! My HS in western PA was famous locally for having the coolest proms in the area. We would call around to venues in Pittsburgh & ask them what big name stars would be performing around the general time of our prom. We'd then call the management of the star & ask them if it would be worth their while if we paid them about 1/2 of their one day performance fee to show up at our prom and do a few songs on their off day. One half of a payday, for an off day? All you have to do is show up, we'd provide the audio, do all the set up, all they had to do is give some high school kids the thrill of their lives! Get PAID when the'd otherwise be trying to figure out what to do? We got the STYLISTICS one year, and my senior year we ALMOST got the Temptations. The declined cause they were too old, said they needed their rest more than the payday. We got the band that opened for them though. The auditorium plan was to bring talent to the area that they would otherwise have to travel between 60 to 300 miles to see otherwise. We did figure that over a WEEKEND 250 miles was not too far to come to see a world class show... on a SATURDAY.... Leave Sat AM. do the 'Doo' that night, get some sleep eat Sunday Dinner as our guests @ HQ leave after the service & be home by midnite. That was comfortable & WORTH it IF the show was good enough. There are lots of very sophisticated locals who live with a 30 mile radius of HQ that regularly travel to Chigago, Detroit, Indianapolis, St. Louis Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnatti, Lexington; even as far away as Pittsburgh, Louisville and Atlanta for "entertainment purposes only." I've done it, gone to Cincy, Cleveburg, and home to the Pitt to see my brother perform when his shows were nearby. The plan was to bring the quality to New Knoxville. That auditorium was designed as an outreach tool. AOS wasn't the first show produced there. We had done a number of Doo's, local people were impressed with the facility, the performance and the people, quite a few would regularly get saved and even sigh up for PFAL and we'd refer them to local leadership for fellowships, etc. We were SO excited about the auditorium because "it was working" even before it was built, while it was being built. I gave regular tours of the building to groups of believer and local and share the vision for the "new center of outreach for The Way International." "Right across the street is our Outreach Services Center, where we house the majority of offices that support our move of God's Word over the world. We currently have Outreach offices, here, at the root of the root where we research God's word and teach it to the best of our ability. From here we reach out to four other rool locations around the country, Rome City Indiana and Emporia Ks are our leadership training centers. We have our vacation spot, Camp Gunnison, The Way Family Ranch; 28 miles from some of the best skiing in the US. There is the LEAD Outdoor Academy, in Tinnie, NM, where our program focuses on teaching believers the "I CAN do - ALL things through Christ" attitude. We have state offices in all 50 US states, Canada, Mexico, another, as we call it, a Trunk location, in Gartmore, and about 78 other countries thoughout Europe, South America, Australia, the middle east and Africa. Gods word will be taught every Sunday from this exact spot where I'm standing and emanate around the whole world from right here in New Knoxville, Ohio. We call that concept, Word Over the World...." That was my part of my presentation. I gave may a tour of first the space in the midst of the trees, then the clearing in the woods where the foundation was staked out, to the hole in the ground, to the enclosed building, to the dusty spaces, "This wall will be here, the piano will go there." To "this is the spot. "Way Builders Architects consulted with some of the finest auditorium designers in the country to give this room the acoustical quality so that a person standing right here need not use a microphone when they speak. Just speaking a little above a normal level, the acoustics will carry the sound to the furthest seat up there in the balcony." Not a bad seat in the house, up there in the back behind those windows we can have people simultaneously translating up to seven different languages. People can get wireless headphones so they are not limited as to where they sit and will hear the service translated into their language by members of our translations staff. Though that door & down the hall is our fullsized rehearsal room with the same dimensions as the stage. We can fully rehease another show while one is set up on stage or ust the rehearsal room for more intimate meetings, classes, parties, or whatever. The floor ni that room is designed to flex, so that performers chances of injury are minimized during the hours andhours of rehearsals. This is our full sized 24 track recording studio allowing us to bring our studio time here to HQ. We no longer need to schedule our recording time around available studio times, or travel arcoss the state to record, This part of the facility gives us the space, etc. to produce a television show like most any you seel on TV on a daily basis. That auditorium was designed to be the finest facility of its type between New York and Chicago and to rival most any in the country. At least that is what it was supposed to be... AS VP's health weigned LCM took more and more control of Way Productions. The place is dark because as far as I know that never got all of the house lighting they planned. I remember LCM ssaying during some meetin, that there were "features" that would be added later that hadn't happened by the time they wanted to open the building. They're probably limping along without. When atheletes meetings, auditions & rehersals started, LCM completely took over the seat VPw had w/ Way Prod. The folks w/ real talent & oversight went buck wild & started putting together some really foot kickin' shows. The excitement creshendoed with this show called "PFAL, Our Life-Style." It played two (I think) shows to standing O's; people LOVED it. HQ & the region was buzzing w/ it, then it got CANCELED, snuffed out like a candle. LCM & co. said it did too much to exault the performers over the message. That, to me, was one of the major signs that something was "really wrong in Denmark." That show was the first Saturday Night Doo in years that people who saw it said "You GOTTA see this...." When they demanded that it not only not be seen again but they wouldn't allow anybody to see the video from it. It was like, It's REALLY become BAD around here. Time now allows us all to look back & know that LCM was f#cking some of the cute dancer-type hardbodies in Atheletes. He was so overblown with ego, he was so determined to be his OWN version of MOG he could not see how much he was screwing up everything else. I don't know that all of the grandiose stuff would have actually happened, Hey, it didn't. All I really know is what I saw of what happened, what I did, & why. I saw TWI grow in to the point where I thought we were about to to do some really great stuff. It turns out that that auditorium was more like the beginning of the end.

BeHOLD, what manner of LOVE is THIS that we should be called the CHILDREN of God... After all the CRAP mankind has put HIM through since HE made US. After we turn from him on a regular basis, after SOME of us worship his ENEMY and give him the middle finger, spit in His face. think we're smarter than He, etc., etc., etc. He LOVED us so MUCH that he would sacrifice HIS own SON so that we MIGHT be saved. What manner of love is this? One that is too high for me. I just believe it and accept it, happily.

That last post was getting so long ... I negelected to complete my train of thought. Regardless as to how anyone feels about VPW, no matter how valid negative pov's, or personal experiences people have had withhim, it is factual that he DID strongly encourage "us" to go beyond him, noting that his " research works," were not the complete be it all end all. I know that, and am now in some ways a little shocked that, so many were taught otherwise. Regardless I believe people should go "beyond," I agree there were many errors. I just don't think that "the quest" should not be fueled by an "anti" position. I think I may see some of that in this discussion. God did place "anchor points" in His word. He did make some "blanket statements" that cover a lot of other stuff. As a father I could NEVER condemn my children to hell AFTER giving them the gift of life. They are alive "because" of me and their Mom. I KNOW for a fact that they deliberately disobeyed me and ran the second truck off that top step as fast as they could get it to go. I believe that I see the broken truck like God sees the consequence of sin in our lives. I believe that what I felt in my heart when I looked into the eyes of my son and said, "Why did you DO that? Didn't I just tell you and show you that it would break if you did that again?" That was the love of God. ALL I could see, and feel as I was holding this broken toy in my hands was how sad my son was and how much I wanted him NOT to feel that way. I told him, "You're just not gonna have a remote control truck to play with until I get some super glue, THEN I'll fix BOTH of them." I think you're right Jbarrax, when you say "its about love." If I, being evil can have that kind of compassion for my children in the face of their out and out, deliberate, rebellious disobedience, even with a little white lie thrown in at the end, how much MORE our Father which is in heaven. If they asked me for bread would I give them a ROCK? ... a snake? As the heaven is high above the earth, so are His ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. Jesus told us we should be like CHILDREN. We "run our trucks down the stairs" on a multi daily basis. We have at LEAST an equal disrespect for the "Christmas" letting of GIFTS that God has wrapped up for us and delivered to us and placed IN us - as my precous little boys do. How many of us parents "joke" EVERY year that, "I should just get 'em a BOX."??? I know one year not too long ago "santa" brought one of those electric ride'em motorcycle things. It came in a HUGE box with pictures of the cycle on the outside... I'm in the kitchen when I hear a sliding sound then "CRASH" a lamp's fallen, broken glass when the lightbulb pops, then "AWWW... I'm TELL-in'... DAAAADD!" I pop into the room & two littlest ones are IN the BOX! Big sister is PUSHING them as fast as she could, Big, big sister says, "I TOLD you to STOP!" Nobody's guilty...lamp's twisted, mangled.... Broken glass.... I sent them to their room, not eternal damnation. I made the ones old enough to not hurt themselves, clean up the mess. Our sin, is temporal, God's love for us, eternal. My salvation is a GIFT. Thank you. I believe God told us, "If you do that, it will break your toys. Don't break your toys or you will lose them. Don't hang out with people who won't be coming with us. They will break your toys and cause you to break your toys. He also told us, "If you are good, I'll get you some REALLY cool toys you can have when "Christmas" comes. Then you can play with them eternally. AND. All those bad guys? They won't be here to break your toys or cause you to bresk your toys. Besides When I make toys they DON'T break."

Jbarrax: Really? Here's his example: (just scroll quickly through the scriptures, unless you want to examine them) It seems to me that there are 27 uses of "it is written" that show it WAS his example to be very concerned about... it is written. Whereas I agree with you that we shouldn't be so concerned about ANYTHING that we can't love each other anymore AND I agree that obsession is a concept that has NO place in Christian thinking or life-style. I firmly believe we should be completely concerned with his (Jesus') words. AND, I disagree that I... My intent was to show you that 1st John speaks on the subject. I'm not out to PROVE anything. It is NOT ironic that I would post scriptures that speak to the subject of the discussion. I'M FOLLOWING JESUS' example by not telling you what I think, I'm SHOWING what "is written" on it. I know Ken, pretty well, actually. He & his wife were on staff @ HQ pretty much the whole 9+ years I was there. His wife worked in Way Publications with me on a semi daily basis.You can add unassuming, humble, fair and well groomed to your list about Ken. He's a good man, no doubt. However, I don't think he'd be OK with you using his name, especially in light of the fact that he disagreed with your postion, to further your position in any discussion. You posted: My interpretation of that is this:You spoke with him and he shot down your position in a few brief minutes. Then he graciously mentioned that he's studied 1 John in the context of apparent Biblical clashes between works and grace because SOME think and teach that 1 John: 1:9 is used to promote righteousness by works. I don't see Ken EVER saying that 1 John 1:9 is not addressed to born again believers. John's epistles as CLEARLY addressed to eyewitnesses... Sure, a loving, honest, etc., etc. bazillion year veteran of the research dept. believes: ... these things write we unto you, (who are NOT born again believers) that your joy may be full. I took many questions to Ken over the years @ HQ. many staffers asked many questions to the whole research dept. ad nauseum, so much so that there was an official announcement to leave those guys alone. I also spent a fair amount of time sitting across Walter Cummins' desk: John Crouch, John Shoenheit, Dan MacConaghy, all of 'em, even LCM and VP himself. I used to have TWIG in Vp's basement and Mrs. and Wanda Wierwille served us cookies & ice cream & bug juice. My point is not to drop names, but to give a little credience to the fact that I know those guys, well enough to have a decent idea of how they think. Vince Finnegan too. I thoroughly understand the thinking of going beyond TWI teaching, correcting the errors, etc. I also know, myself as eye witness, that contrary to a prevailing train of thought, VPW, himself TOLD us ALL to go beyond "his" work. The very CONCEPT of what so many denounce and slam, as Way CORPSE, included the research papers be submitted as partial requirement for graduation. Those papers were to become a part of the greatest library of Biblical research in the world. In theory every WC Grad was to pick a subject that they felt God had inspired them to, do a masters level thesis on it, submit it to the research library then spend the rest of their lives "mastering" that subject, each becoming an "authority" on it. I wouldn't doubt it if "all" of that work was burned in th transition to "TWI II; Revenge of the Jock." When it comes to dropping names, the current TWI Vice Pres, Harve Platig, was my research paper advisor, HE praised my thinking process, research capabilities, and gave my paper a superior rating. (Uh, OH, maybe I shouldn't use Harve, he may not be honest, loving, etc. ) I guess my point, overall, is.... Historically, people have had a very hard time accepting that God wants us with him eternally and GAVE that to us as a gift. Like Santa Clause. Do you think I don't KNOW every year that my kids are gonna break the toys I give them for Christmas (yes, I said CHRISTMAS, grr... :)--> ;)--> )??? This year, TWO remote control trucks didn't last til noon. My boys figured that the big, knobby, off road lookin' tires actually ment they could drive them off road. They ran one right off the top step, reveling in how cool it looked as it tumbled down the steps. I was dismayed when it BROKE along the way. AFTER I comforted them, after they were upset, after they repented, of breaking it, after I instructed them SPECIFICALLY that it broke BECAUSE of it tumbling down the soft carpeted stairs, after they understood, after I ORDERED them NOT to do it again, after they survived the "wrath of Dad," after they went happily off to play in their room - - upstairs ... AFTER a few minutes later, the OTHER one came bouncing, tumbling down - - BROKE in the SAME place as the other one. "We're sorry Daddy! I was an axe-inent!" Please don't kill us look in their eyes. You're going to HELL. I said, lovingly.

I wondered that about my marriages too. After the first one was over, after much consideration, I figured that spouse never had any intent to BE "married." I felt she went through the motions just to get what she could from me. When I wouldn't play along she went to other guy(s). I finally setteled on whatever we were, we were never "married" per God's POV.

Hey JT. I once thought that the statistics were a little overblown, myself. During my first marriage, a situation happened involving one of my stepdaughters and abuse. The counselor we went to handed me a book called "One in FOUR." It said that one in EVERY four girls in this country is sexually abused.... I thought "Naw. They're making a good point, but I know a lot of girls, never heard about 25% of THEM being abused...." Well. Now that I've had a little time to think and am more open to the topic, its kinda like when you buy a different car. All of a sudden there are a blue million of the car you just bought on the road that you didn't notice "yesterday." They cars were always there we just weren't paying attention, until "it hit home." I've become a FIRM believer in the fact that those of us who are not involved need to reach out to; and be sensitive to the needs of those who are, in fact abused and therefore INJURED. Not weak, hurt; injured. This is not to say you're not sensitive JT, its just that we all need to be aware of how pervasive this problem is, pay attention to it & act accordingly. In my own world I've found the statistics to be solid and even on the conservative side like Cindy said. My personal statistics. I have a Mom & two sisters. My mom was raped, & one of my sisters molested. = Two of three. Marriage #1. Wife + three daughters (two step - 1 biological). Wife was emotionally abused & one of the daughters was molested. = 2 of four. Marriage #2. Also wife + three daughters, one from marriage #1 and two new ones. Wife was physically abused & one of the new daughters was molested. also 2 of four. From the major familial relationships in my own life, there were a total of 10 girls/women SIX of the 10 were abused, five of the six were abused by FAMILY members, only my Mom was abused by a stranger. I was (and still am on occasion) emotionally abused by BOTH wives; wife #2 threw in physical. SO my own family life shows statistics in excess of 33% or 25%; my own statistics show 60 percent . Three different fathers, my "favorite" uncle and a young cousin are among the people who abuse the most close to me. Not ONE of them was exaggerated in any way. The statistics, in reality are MUCH greater, because there is a significantnumber of these things that go unreported.

I didn't have this experience at all. I thought it was quite the opposite: one CG was out of the picture, and only when CG was out of the picture, VF began dropping TWI doctrines like hot potatoes: pre-trib rapture, dispensationalism, and "once saved always saved," for lack of a better term. Both of these positions sound similar to me. I can see how you both would say what you did. I'm wondering, what did VF replace "pre-trib rapture, dispensationalism" with?

It was "The Crying Game" last time I bit into that thing they call a soyburger. I cried about the game they ran on me ... that was NOT a burger.

People who think there's such a thing as pineapple PIZZA also believe in SOYburgers.

I've come to discover, simply by reading the Bible, that ALL human soul-life is eternal. At this point in history we will either spend eternity (NOT floating around in heaven) living in our new bodies in the "third" heaven & Earth OR in the fiery pit of eternal torment, with the weeping and gnashing of teeth thing - like eternally; with lucifer & his angels. We have known, all of Christendom has ALWAYS known that ALL life is eternal. Perhaps its where the concept came from that has spawned the "purgetory concepts" of Roman Catholicism, as well as reincarnation concepts. It is CLEAR that the Bible teaches our soul is eternal. The dead in Christ do rise, right? It just isn't that complicated. God is light, in Him is NO darkness at all. HE wanted to give us life, HE redeemed us from death & eternal torment AND gives US the opportunity to earn rewards. THEN he warns us to stay away from people who WON'T be going where we are going, because if we do what THEY do WE will lose our rewards.

In other words, I've tried to study this stuff from a clean perspective, not just rehash TWI doctrines, or fall into the doctrines of other religious groups because I was ignorant to them. Like Sunesis said, its simple. God originally wanted mankind to have life, so He gave it to Adam, mankind (he was the only guy around :)--> . Satan, as the father of lies and author of death "killed" mankind ( he was mad at God . Jesus, the second Adam, mankind, paid the price, to both regain the life the first Adam lost, and redeem him from the penalty of sin, which is to spend eternity in eternal torment. God redeemed us cause he wanted us to LIVE with Him. That's it.

I think its cool how we've at least had it "mentioned" here the THREE basic camps. For ease of communication and civility, can we term them? A. Saved by grace = once saved, always saved = OSAS. B. Saved, but work to keep it = SBWK. And. Those who just live & don't worry about it. The Bible does speak of those who, though they were with out the law, did the things contained in the law and therefore became a law unto themselves. I don't have a catchy acronymn for that one :)--> maybe we could say DWBH or; "Don't worry (about it) BE happy. (???) If anyone has a better acronym, by all means, feel free to throw it out, we can come to a consensus. At any rate, I brought the epistle of John stuff (not really sure which John ;)-->) in because most of it is equally ignored by the Christian church in its entirety. Sure they pull out the part about "If we confess our sins..." and at least the word, "antichrist." Its pretty much ignored. I put a LOT of study into the epistle of John, following rabbit trails, word studies on "beginning" & stuff life that. It was really cool, helped me settle on positions of lots of things, actually. I don't have a whole lot of energy to debate this but a good Bible discussion topic is always on my radar, as I DON'T (as in strongly) believe I know it all, or even very much of it when it come to the Bible. Personally, I've been reviewing EVERYTHING, absolutely everything we were taught in TWI since I was fired from TWI staff in August of '88. I just didn't trust ANYTHING they had taught us, because of how they TREATED me. My study of John helped me SO much to reconcile how they could BE Christians when they ACTed so much like evil people. I've expanded my viewpoint from TWI teachings to the contemporary Chistian Church to the entire Judeo Christian ethic to worldwide Chirstian views to a global perspective on God in general. In so doing, its been interesting to discover where & when idologies began and who began them. I'm not an expert, by any means and I haven't done it to be able to stand & give symposiums type speeches on this stuff, but I have formulated what I feel are scripturally educated opinions. I try to base them on a global view of both the scriptures and what I think I see as God's intent on this subject.

One of the biggest points I was trying to make is that this debate is NOT new, Its been raging on since the first century. The debate continues, and like someone above stated, people basically settle into camps. In my view, the self-serving aspect of VF's current view would be in using "uneathed truths" to gain followers. To pull people into "his camp" is, in my view, self serving.

Ok Mike. So If one was to master PFAL as you say and do all that you say... what would it do for them? Why should we think that mastering PFAL would do any more for a person than make them know a whole lot about a Bible class? Telling me nebulous stuff like the people who mastered it were blessed by God proportionately to their mastery of the class says nothing. Say something.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son , and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. ... into believing that Jesus accomplished nothing, with his life, death, and ressurection. And they would have you to believe that after all God gave up to redeem us, he'd leave it to US to LOSE IT AGAIN. See; this BS was around 2000 years ago, YAY, Vince! Thanks for reminding us! I John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. His seed REMAINS in him (PERIOD.)... Because he is born of God. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil, who sinned from the beginning. I John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Yeah, some of 'em teach that you're NOT born again of incorruptable seed. BUT. ! John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. v:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. ... when they say Jesus could NEVER have accomplished all that! God wants us to have life. v:9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. v:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ...payment in full for our sins. I guess we run up new sin debt on our clean slate after we get born again.... Is that what you're saying? IF we are born again, we WILL LIVE it. I guess that includes knowing it. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. v:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. This book of John says some really heavy duty stuff soncerning sin, eternal life, the antichrist, etc. To me one of the most heavy duty things is this: I John 2:18, 19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. v:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. This seems to say (considering the whole context of the books of John) that there are some who, although they were "with" the believers, they were not actually born again, they only acted like they were part of "the faith," going through the motions. Because if they actually WERE "OF" us, as in being born again, they would live like we do and REMAIN with us, living as we live. John seems to me to be encouraging the believers; letting them know that the reason they are loving each other as they are is that the Holy Spirit lives in them and has changed their lives in that manner (giving them life). He chills them out by telling them that those among them who "hateth his brother" is lying and God's truth does NOT live in them, the spirit part of a man cannot sin, in fact it inspires one from within to live, loving his brother. Further he relieves their concerns by telling them that those who have left the ranks were never REALLY a part of them. But over all he's saying, I'm writing you so that your JOY can be FULL. God loved you SO much he gave his son for you once and for all. It was a gift of his great LOVE. and you have it forever. I've always thought that this indicates that a LOT of people who say they're born again, going to heaven, et. al. ain't goin' nowhere.... AND you can tell who they are by the way they act towards each other from the heart. This goes beyond just getting mad at people on occasion. This is talking about how people actually live. Including false prophets ....

The concept of losing one's salvation is centuries old. Vince & Co. have uncovered nothing new. It is self -serving, ALSO, by making them look smart enough to uncover their new version of the truth. In fact, wasn't it Jesus' BROTHER John who first confronted this "teaching?" I John 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)--> 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. If it is true that we can lose our salvation (ability to get into heaven) by sinning ...therefore NONE of us can get into heaven because we ALL sin. If we say we DON'T sin we MAKE HIM a liar, and HIS truth is NOT in us. If it is true that we KEEP our salvation by what we do then we are saved by our works. We are saved, redeemed from the DEAD by being born again. God saves us by His grace and MERCY. Adam (mankind) DID lose his eternal life by his sin. Therefore we all, born of the seed of mankind, are born dead (without eternal life). Adam's sin effected all of us born after him (of the earth, earthly). In order to obtain any type of sactification and justification mankind had to, via the works of the high priests (sanctified and purified ones who used the blood of sanctified, purified animals, approved of by God & the priests), have his sin covered by the blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood) of the sacrifice(s). Jesus Christ, the SECOND Adam (mankind) paid the price (the wages [payment] of sin = death) for sin BY his death. Jesus was the highest of high priests (annointed by God with the ministry of forgiving sin) and he took our sin in his body (he BECAME sin FOR us). No only did he perform the blood ritual as the high priests did, he was BOTH the priest AND the sacrifice. The other priests couldn't do what Jesus did because they were born with the sinful blood of Adam, as it was passed, from Adam through each generation. Hence Jesus' blood coming directly from God. The virgin conception was not the big deal from God's POV, the deal was that Jesus was NOT born of the seed of man (the seed of the woman from Genesis 3). Therefore Jesus was born spotless (as a perfect sacrifice) and remained qualified to BE a sacrifice by HIS works, being that HE remained sinless until HIS death. Jesus, the SECOND Adam was a life-giving spirit. As the SACRIFICE, Jesus sheding of his perfect blood as part of his death paid the price, the same as the shedding of the blood of the animals. As the PRIEST, Jesus performed the ritual of the sacrifice of the lamb in that he GAVE his life by not fighting back or running away, or calling the legions of angels who would have joyfully saved him. The blood letting was performed by the Roman guards when they beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him,... some more. Then they beat him....after they beat him - that is.... They BEAT him with all the anger of Lucifer, himself. Then they mocked him. Then they crammed a "crown" of 4" long thorns INTO his head. Then they made him carry his own cross. This was after they put a robe on him & let the blood dry and stick to his ripped up skin. Oh. Did I mention they then RIPPED the robe off of him... the one that had begun to stick to his open wounds (and some fo the ones that were beginning to heal.???? Then they made him carry the cross until he couldn't carry it anymore. THEN they got some big, long nails and NAILED HIM up like hanging a picture. The Jews (God's CHOSEN people) had this law so the Romans were gonna break his legs with a mallet or something so he's suffocate a little quicker. BUT. When they got to him they figured he was dead... so they stabbed him in the side, just make sure. When he died his blood cleansed our sin the same way as the passover lamb cleansed sin prior. The difference is that passover lamb was only "perfect" on the outside, Jesus' PERFECT blood (from the inside) cleansed us all PERFECTLY. Jesua stayed dead to fulfill the prophecy of Jonah in the belly of the sea monster. the moment that was fulfilled . HE GOT UP. From the dead. God raised him from the dead by HIS grace & mercy. HE IS RISEN He is no longer dead. He - IS - risen. (goosebumps!!!!!!!!!!) We were with him (via his priesthood) in his death, so we came along with him when he got up. We can now be born AGAIN (after the death of Adam) with incorruptable seed. The seed of the woman which Jesus never allowed to be corrupted by living HIS sinless life. God, since HE WANTED us (mankind) to live eternally in the first place, gives us life again by a free-will decision to accept it by believing what he said. Adam lost life eternal by his free-will decision to believe what LUCIFER said. God was ....ed off by how Lucifer tricked Adam, so he didn't tell ANYONE his plan to fix it so Lucifer could NEVER do that again. (The great mystery).

This is a pretty darn big subject.... Yoday on Oprah she said that there are over 21 million, over 1/3, of all women in relationships are emotionally abused on a daily basis in this country. One of the biggest pieces of "Way Ministry junk" is that they SEVERELY overestimate their importance in this world. At its zenith TWI had about 300,000 "active followers" worldwide. More people than that were wiped out in less than an hour in the recent, highly publicised, Tsunami. The $22 mil/yr they once brought in is a drop in the bucket compared to the $9 BILLION a company I once worked for makes per year. No woman in this country is too beautiful, too smart, too wealthy, or too professional to be immune to this horrible phenomena. TWI is too small to give it the power they crave. The woman on the Oprah show is saying the same type of stuff about why she hasn't left her husband as has been posted earlier on this thread. I'm not advocating divorce, nor am I telling anyone what they should do. I'm sharingthings from my experience, and I agree with both Steve & Shaz. I think that most people who haven't divorced after about a year of separation and are contemplating the next steps have been involved in some sort of reconciliation activity. At least I was, it was more complicated than just figuring out what I wanted though. What I thought I wanted then was my spouse without the negatives, the problems. Christian thinking about marriage, "til death do us part" had been distorted so that we accept and justify receiving abuse.... we STAY... we take it. Over 55% of marriages in general, 50% of "christian" marriages end in divorce. 33% of SECOND marriages end in divorce. Add that to the above statistic considering that we haven't mentioned about how many MEN are emotionally abused and we must conclude that it is not JUST TWI who hasn't a clue about relationships. Although the specifics may vary each situation may not be as different as we think. Abuse is abuse is abuse. The situations vary, types of abuse differs, the "reasons" vary but the results of abuse are the same, it damages people. Everything I've said concerning this is, as Cindy said, towards breaking the cycle of abuse.

Welcome to GS Xena! I can see your points. It was not my specific intention to make it sound as you said. Maybe I could be more clear by saying I meant it to sound like God is OK with divorcing an abuser. When should one leave? At the FIRST sign of abuse. YES I do mean SHOULD. I feel that if we as individuals valued ourselves one %-age point as much as God does we would NOT put up with one OUNCE of abuse. PERIOD. I have children. How much abuse would I as a Father allow MY children to experience??? "If I, being evil would not put up with ANYONE abusing my children at ALL, how much MORE, my Father in heaven?" Codependence begins the MOMENT an abused spouse formulates the thought, "Its OK honey...." A wife should use her command from God to "submit" to hold her husband to "... as Christ loved the church, and GAVE himself for it." There is a HUGE difference between forgive and EXCUSE. God is faithful and just to forgive us, but He does not always EXCUSE us from the consequences of our sin. There must be swift, immediate, and strong consequences for any and every act of abuse in a marriage. I DO believe that if your hubby said an abusive thing to you on his way out the door to work and he came home to any empty house, it may be quite easy for wifee-poo to make her point that she will NOT put up with such stuff. Of course that is extreme. I'm not adovcating that we divorce over every "broken fingernail" of "abuse." I'm just saying, DON'T take it at ALL. It IS subjective, between THAT couple. Its not even about GOD at that point, it is what I expect from YOU, MY husband! (and vice-versa). Obviously there are honesty issues, control issues, etc. These are things couples must work out on their own. When do you call the lawyer? "When you reach the point that honestly, "he who is an heretic after the first and second admonition, reject!" I think that's a good and Godly standard. My Mommy taught me as a little boy that people, including ME, do what they WANT to do. IF I don't heed what my WIFE says AFTER she's told me (and I understand) TWICE, it cause I just DON'T want to heed. I would be THRILLED that my wife would LOVE me enough to tell me, "Honey, I can't take it when you.... to me." THEN, I'm empowered, I know what she wants, or at least what she doesn't want. It takem me a little bit out of us men's completely CLUELESS state when it comes to pleasing in this relationship that David said was way "too high for me!" Hope that clarifies things I said?

Hmm... "a very dear friend" who cares enough about her friend to tell her "you've changed, and not for the better." THAT is agapeo love. Seriously, it is. Belle, you know I love you right? Please "fasten your seat belt and make sure your table tray is up & your seat is in the upright and locked position." Let me start with this: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church, and GAVE HIMSELF (in one of the most hideously torturous deaths ever recorded) for it." Why isn't your alarm going off!?? I don't see the result of Christ's love for us leaving us "self-conscious, sad, paranoid and without self-esteem." Your innie friend is brainwashed. No if's ands or but's about it. The "marriage" your friend wants to keep intact is a textbook example of abuse. If you want me to itemize the abuse, I will, gladly. For now suffice it to say that if your friend were to take her Children and show up at a center for abused women they would take her in in an instant. Thye would surround her with resources, counseling, etc. all that she needs to get her brain thinking rationally again. She is NOT thinking rationally now. And to a certain degree Bell, my friend, niether are you. I'm not mad at you, please don't think that I am. Nor am I mad at your friend. I'm a veteran of TWO divorces, each of the worst kind. I'm NOT an advocate of divorce, but I AM a strong advocate of freeing woman from abusive spousal relationships. I was also abused in my last marriage; as wierd as it may seem, I was on the receiving end of spousal abuse. BUT, we're not talking about me right now. I will say this much though. One thing that helped me through my first divorce when I was fighting for the marriage was this: I realized that IF the divorce had to happen, there was NOTHING stopping us from getting back together later after the smoke clears. It does happen, you know. Moving forward. The fear about the TWI dogs coming after her is straight up criminal intimidation. Those things in bold are CRIMINAL. Not just bad or UGLY, they are criminal, actual prosecutable offenses and are part of text book abuse under the category of the abuser ISOLATING the abused from any and all who would help her. Mental abuse is considered WORSE than physical. I'm sorry but I can't share any hope that your friend stay in an abusive relationship. At BEST, HE is brainwashed too! If she up and disappeared, WITH the children, MAYBE that would shock hubby enough to snap him back in the direction of sanity. Yup THAT's sanity at its best - - truly the American dream.You MUST see this situation as life & death, the lives of those precious CHILDREN are in jeopardy. Legal authorities might step in an take them from BOTH of them. AS far fetched as that may sound, or as far down the road as it may be; the reality is that it is a possibility - given the situation as you've related it. No, I'm not on a rant. I'm not exaggerating. If you see this as "innocent," just TWI - bullcrap - - no blood no foul, then maybe you're brainwashed too. I'm a veteran of divorce, unfortunately. Kids survive divorces; ultimately children need stability and they can adapt. If handled properly the damage to children from divorce can be isolated, minimized and they can develop into well-adjusted, contributing members of society. You can ask my 18 yr old, National Merit Scholar, #1 in her Class, valedictorian, Yale University Class of 2009, daughter. She was four when I divorced, survived it and survived my second divorce and turned out OK. For the record, I married two women who strayed, were abusive, then tried to "take me for everything I had" in the divorce. I do know what I'm talking about. So what could she do? I understand that she doesn't want to divorce her husband, she obviously sees whatever qulities hubby has. #1. She must understand that her vow to "submit" starts with submitting to GOD, who gives her the right to DEMAND that her husband do his part in the relationship to provide her with what SHE feels is "happiness." There is NOTHING in the biblical "wives submit to your husbands" that includes the abuse of "You can't talk to your FRIEND Belle." #2. IF she wanted, she could open the phone book & call legal aid and get an attorney appointed to her at NO CHARGE. #3. She could get said FREE attorney to approach the local court and get an "Emergency Ex-Parte order" giving her temporary custody of the children. This would stop the TWI dogs from using her children as a wedge to get her back in the fold. #4. Then she could move the court to get child support from hubby to help pay for her new house or apartment. #5. I'm sure she has some skills and education, she should write her resume and post it on a job search website(s). While she's praying she could pray for a job. A great job, God could bless her with a fantastic job. #6. Reestablish her support system and expand it. I think there are at least two people more than willing to sign on; Bell and the friend from college to start. #7. ALL divorce actions don't need to end in divorce, just as all criminal prosecutions don't end in incarceration. She should write up all of the stuff you've mentioned here and the rest of what she lives on a daily basis. The divorce action can certainly be used as a hammer & chisle to pry his head out of RR& Co's butts. Divorce actions can include investigations that bring to light the need for professional counseling for the entire family. The counseling could be used to fix the whole family. The divorce would be denied on the basis that Hubby & Wife decided to live happily ever after. The sun falls, family rides off into the sunset, the credits begin to roll, end of story. Happy music plays. I see the current situation as detremental to the development of the children. What are they learning while their family struggles after Daddy & Mom give Rosalie THEIR hard earned money so she can use it to hire a bull-dike pool cleaner to clean her pool. AND pay LCM the money you KNOW they agreed to give him to step down as president. She has already determined that LEAVING TWI is the thing to do. She OWES it to herself and her CHILDREN to LEAVE - - NOW, as soon as possible. IF hubby is redemable he'll see the light when the court agent serves him with his "bill of divorcement. What better way for her to say, "I'm serious about this 'leaving thing' honey...." Fortunately she has "right" on her side. I didn't WANT to divorce. I wanted to save my marriage too. I gave literally EVERYTHING I had to save the marriage. Eventually it became clear to me that SHE wasn't ever gonna be the wife, I deserved, OR the mother her children deserved. My kids' Mom made it a fight, so I fought with all I had for my children's sake. I won't lie & tell you that the process wasn't excruciating, it was & IS... excruciating at times. God is BIGGER than all of this. I will tell you, also, concerning my situation, I was forced to criminally prosecute my ex-wife, when she decided to hit me with her car & shatter part of a bone in my leg and tear three of the four ligaments in my knee. My 7 & 5 year old sons witnessed it. I'm currently in my 4th month of twice-weekly physical therapy. I have no desire that she go to jail. I have every desire that she get the help she needs to be able to not feel that it is OK to use a car to make a point. As the evidence was overwhelming, she pled guilty to assault and now I'm participating in her "pre-sentencing investigation" the court has ordered. I was unable to get her into counseling while we were married. I too, stayed in the marriage for years doing "all the right things" to save it. Now the court will most likely ORDER her to at least GO to counseling. I pray she heeds whatever comes of this. She made HER decision(s). It was incredibly difficult for me to realize that allowing and even participating in the natural consequences or her actions coming down on her IS the MOST loving thing I can do FOR her at this point. You friend, Belle, iMo is in a very similar situation. She must wake up & stop shielding hubby from the consequences of his actions. He has NO right to do what he's doing to her. NONE.

and your point is...????

Faith is the substance of things we hope for, it is the tangible evidence we have today of the things we envision but have not yet recieved. To recieve anything from God you must first believe that He is then believe He truly is a rewarder to them that diligently seek him. Ye have not because you ask not. If ask and recieve not it is because you've asked for the wrong things. If you have the faith of a mustard seed... Faith without works is dead... You tell me of your works of faith, I show you my faith BY my works.... That is some of what God has said about recieving from Him. As the heaven is high above the Earth so are my thoughts above your thoughts and my ways above your ways. I am in heaven and you are on the Earth, therefore let thy words be few.... In other words WE shouldn't have a lot to say about HOW God and WHY God makes His decisions...

THIS, my friends, IS idolatry. It replaces God as a living, loving, soveriegn (sp?) Father with a mathematical formula: Eg: 1+1 = 2 IF I want to get "2" - - I must add one PLUS one. If I do NOT add 1+1; I will NEVER get to "2" no matter what I think I've done I will never get to 2 unless I do the right thing. Where is GOD in that? I see a whole lot of I in it though. I (1) plus 1 (my squeaky clean, non lying, truth speakin' self - my works) = 2 ("the holy spirit to be manifesting on the inside of you, and also working on your behalf") IF I do this, then (and ONLY then) will God, who is ALIVE, in Christ, in me manifest His living presence in me. IF I lie, "poof" His living presence goes dormant. "Oh, I really need God's PROMISE of healing in my life right now so I'd better be good, or he won't even SPIT in my direction." Sure, I'll believe that... NOT! The quote above turns recieving God's gift and gifts that HE GAVE to us and works through us into something WE do, which sounds a lot to me like WORKS. Our salvation is NOT of works, "lest any MAN (like WTH) should boast," like he just did. Not only does it do that, it violates the first of the 10 Commandments, "Thou shalt have NO other gods before ME." AND it indirectly DENIES the existence of Satan and the fact that we ALL are victims of "sin nature" It turns US into the ONE who wields the power, which should be GOD. Therefore exaulting our throne ABOVE God. Romans 7:18 - 21 "18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." God NEVER demanded that we do anything to gain His presence in our lives but Romans 10:9 In a sense PFAL can be viewed as the most valuable class in th eworld because it DOES make it clear that one should and must be born again. On the other hand it did NOT make it clear how its emphasis on "Rightly dividing" the word of truth and God's word working with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision actually worked & fit with scriptures. Although God IS perfect & all that He is still alive and he still works according to HIS perfect will in every situation. His promises are true, He IS just. righteous etc. BUT. He is NOT like electricity, power we use at our beck and call at our discretion. In PFAL terms; the above statement, places WTH "above" God because "you have to be bigger than that which you explain." Idolatry. Sounds just like an angel I once heard of.

BTW. ANYONE who ever TOLD you YOU were possessed was an idiot when they said it. I really don't care WHO they were or WHY they said it. Even if you WERE possessed, they STILL were an idiot to TELL you about it. The ONLY Biblical thing to do when a person with the "spiritual kahones" to discern that YOU are possessed would be for them to cast YOUR spirits out. If a possessed person showed up at MY twig, I'd kick their spirit(s) out & welcome the person to stay for cookies & bug juice after twig. If I ever even HEARD that a TC or WC person was running around TELLING believers they were possessed, I'd have gone to them & did whatever necessary to stop them from hurting folks that way... up to and including kickin' some TC or WC butt. The sense of kicking me, & people like me, out of the Corps & TWI becomes quite evident. Criag KNEW that a large majority of Corps would NEVER swear their allegiance to him. He also know that most of us who wouldn't follow him wouldn't leave the ministry either. When he did the "who you gonna stand with?" letter he knew how people would respond, he just went through the motions to throw us out. Then he could have some legal ramifications to thrust upon us if we tried to throw HIM out. (Hence the Doug McMullan thing.) After we were gone, there was basically nothing to stop the Corps from turning into the "corpse." There was a time when real possessed people were INVITED to HQ to live & stay a while to get rid of their spirits. Can you imagine "bag lady" types or people that you see in big cities living out of stolen shopping carts roaming around the pristine grounds at TWI HQ? New Knoxville? That was one of the things the locals didn't like about VP. He INVITED real CRAZY people to NK! I've seen it myself. Even talked to a guy once in the BRC basement. He had been healed and was eating before he went on his way. LCM just didn't care about people at all. ALL he wanted was the power.

Not trying to one-up you ChattyK, but I lost my Mom to cancer. My first ex-Mother in law died from a different type of cancer too. Just connecting w/you on the "personal to me" tip.