HCW

Thanks Oaksp. Got it read it. Still think the whole concept is nuts. Eve switched teams because she saw what? A really sexy looking snake? Then Adam said "Oohh Eveie baby, what you did was cool with me!" God got mad & kicked 'em both out of the Garden. Then Eve switched back and became the Mother of all people. Her seed must be people who are "born gay" right?

I've got another question for you Mike, or anyone else.... What about the poeple who mastered PFAL in order to teach it to The Way Corps? How blessed were their lives? Did you even KNOW that happened? If so, did you know who these people are? Do you know ANYTHING about their lives? Have you SEEN any of the great blessings mastery of PFAL brought to them? Have you heard a SINGLE one of their supplementary PFAL teachings where they expanded and expounded on the written AND film versions of PFAL? Did you know there were, at one time EXPERTS on each of the PFAL series, Foundational, Intermediate, and Advanced Classes? Did you know there were experts on each and every class in the entire series? Did you know each of these experts taught those of US (not including YOU) advanced versions of every class in the series when we were in residence? Do you know what these advanced versions of the class included that the "field" versions didn't? Did you know the reason the "advanced versions" were not taught on the field? Do you REALLY know ANYTHING?

I'm still waiting too MrH. Mike told me he would take some time & do "homework" on some questions/comments I made a long time ago and answer my questions also. Methinks that since he chose to address one thing I said AFTER telling me he'd address EVERYthing excuses him from adressing ANYthing that I really wanted him to address. NOW he can say, "Oh yes I DID address your questions, HCW. YOU are being (fill in the blank __________________ [some Mikean version of mean to him]) when you say I was LYING when I said I would answer your questions. Maybe YOU are blind to the fact that I've already answered you?" He'll come in substituting one usage of the word 'address,' combined with another English word 'answer' to form his own "truth" which is only true to him and whomever comes along behind him and reads it with a propensity towards believing HIM over their own actual logic system. Sorta like this: "This particular usage of "address" in the KMV (King Mikes Version [that is the possessive version of Mike 'there was no punctuation in the original "God-breathed" text'] ...when used in conjunction with the simple form of "answer" as in the totalityishnesseprosity in the accusitive case of "addressed what you said." Or in this case "wrote," because you actually are not speaking, you're writing, which literally according to usage, the TYPING you're doing is called writing in most cultures. It can only be referred to as actual "speaking" when said typing/writing is used in the context of chat rooms. Seeing as the forums and the chatrooms are similar in the sense that one must read the human experssions (writings/typing) in either OR the other (one usually doesn't, although not impossible for some, more initiated ones ['OLG's] read BOTH a forum and chat at once)in order for said human expression to become an actual communication on the temporal, human, level. Therefore, IF they the reader (target of the expression) did appear to read both [as in of the same category of each] at once it would actually be a rapid succession of a more simultaneous reading, rather than an actual at ONCE reading of at least two separate, but equal [in terms of being written words] expressions of thought/ideas. A chat "room" (not an actual room but a section, usually of a website [not an actual place, but a specific address on the internet, otherwise known as the world wide web]) provides the opportunity of a more immediate response and almost virtual, ping-pong type of actual communication, which more closely resembles "speaking," whereas the forums differ in that they are more limited to EXPRESSIONS on one or more sides of a chosen issue.) actually means, "Yes I DID answer ALL of your questions, as I said I would." The unalterable, clearly evident truth that I did, in fact, ADDRESS, things that YOU "said" (please refer to the above parenthetical remarks) AND I did, in fact, give AN answer, which was addressed (clearly) to you...proves with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision that I DID answer ALL of your questions. ALL of everything that I addressed in that post, clearly to you was presented to you. All of what I answered were your questions, were they not? Therefore I answered ALL of your questions. How mean of you it is to try and point out that I didn't when in fact I did. I don't creater to invective. (In other words. I'm not answering any more of your questions because I don't like them.) Besides, I already did answer all your questions. There is no contraditiction on my part, only confusion on your part in that you actually cannot see that I did answer all of your questions. Why are you waiting for me to answer if you don't think I didn't answer all your questions? *************** True "PFALian logic" says Mike already answered your questions too Mr. Hamma.

Precisely, and that includes the hard and fast rules set forth by VPW, which would mean that he was (drumroll please) wrong about the mathematical exactness and scientific precision of the words as he defined them. I can get with that. I'd be willing to chance it & say that it could be more accurately put this way: God's word, in its infinite perfection, CAN, in places where God intended, be mathematically exact and scientifically precise. The more I study the Bible without the tunnel-visioned qualities of wayhead, the more I see how perfect it is in that it can be applied to a wide variety of instances, circumstances, etc. in many ways. The "many ways" are specifically accurate in their applications, as one applys scripture in a GODLY fashion, as opposed to application in a self-serving capacity. I remember back in 76-78 while in art school I was excited to find a group of Christians at the school. I got involved in the prayer/Bible study group. I'd go to the Bible study during the day in college and then go to a twig in the evenings, sometimes on the same day. The TWI group would highly discourage the, "what does that scripture say to you" POV that the Bible study group would equally as strongly ENcourage. I took my first PFAL class in 76 AFTER being involved in the other study group. I was not yet committed to TWI and went to both groups as a quiet observer, not throwing in my two cents very much. It was an interesting dicotomy to me, how both groups who claimed commitment to God had such a different approach concerning His word. Fast forwarding to today. I now believe that the whole mathematical exactness, scientific precision thing did more to usher in the Gestapo, Nazi-like legalism TWI fell prey to than any other specific doctrine. I now believe is is the perfection of God in his choice of words that allows a study like this one we see here on heteros/allos to show many (in a category, being "other) applications. This thinking flies in the face of the "only ONE interpretation" hypothesis of VPW. IF there truly is, in fact, ONLY one "interpretation" of each and every word in God's word WHY then do we need His gift of Holy Spirit to lead us into "all the truth" of righteousness (right living)??? What is holy spirit for if not to guide us in ways that we can NOT see? What does it do if not give us a living connection to God himself? God, who is a living Father to us can certainly guide us and say, "in this situation, you apply it THIS way." In another situation he may say apply it THAT way. If I can say, "Tommorrow, I'm going to drive my car around the big banked curve, on my way from the river bank where I was fishing; going to the bank where I do my banking. Once there I will withraw some money to pay for my basketball lessons so I can work on my bank shot, so I can make it to the NBA where I can earn some serious bank." Why can't God? With ANY word He chooses, whenever he chooses? Why couldn't He even teach us a NEW application of words, or principles found in his word? Yeah, I'd agree VP WAS not only wrong to install such legalism into the ministry he was hypocritically teaching out of both sides of his mouth by teaching "freedom in Christ."

..."Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Thats what GOD says about it. We have no excuses to make about not knowing Him because He's already shown Himself to us - - in EVERYTHING that He made that surrounds us each and every day. (that was Romans 1:19 & 20 above) Ask, seek, knock; in other words, LOOK FOR HIM.... WHERE? EVERYWHERE. If you want to recieve anything from God, first "Ye MUST be BORN - - again. (Again is a simple reminder that it was HIS desire that we bo born in the first place. It is HIS desire the we be BORN - - again.... HE wants US alive not dead. Then. You must believe IN God and believe that He IS a rewarder of them who diligently seek him. Where? Everywhere. When? Now. You want some UNDENIABLE proof of the existence of God??? Huh? DO ya? Ok. Here's one. Tell me why, when it is freezing cold outside, so caold that when your hands get wet they freeze, almost instantly - - but YOUR EYES, which are ALWAYS wet never even get cold? Random evolutionary chance, right?

I'd agree Evan that most mainstream christian folks read about TWI mainly for the sake of writing an anti cult blurb. It wasn't my intent to suggest they studied him as a contemporary. BUT. TWI was much more than an extremely minor outpost on the Christian landscape of the day. We were considered the second most dangerous cult in the world. Virtually every cult book, everyone who was anyone on the anti-cult scene has us at the top of their list. Every speech on cults, mentioned TWI. Ted Patrick, the most infamous deprogrammer of them all, regularly kidnapped wafers for deprogramming. Some were successful, some weren't. TWI was the subject of national news stories. I know of one time, when the 7th & 9th Corps was at Emporia one of the national evening news teams came there to do a feature story on TWI for the evening news. I can't speak for Chuck Swindoll, specifically and only mentioned him as he strikes me as one who does his homework before speaking out on a topic. Again. I don't care enough about it to argue, but it seems like some were unaware of just how "big" TWI once was. Thing eraly y heated up when the Jim Jones cult did their poisoned Kool-aid thing. Through the early to mid 80's we "dangerous cult" rap was fading as info about the para-military training proved to be a the simple state of KS sanctioned Hunter safety course. The cult rap faded even more after VPW died because on of the central tenants to cultishness is that they haev a charismatic leader. The anti cultists never considered LCM as charismatic enough to carry on the cult. Plus the word was out that TWI was shrinking into obscurity. Now nobody cares enough about it to give it a second look.

I dunno def. Its possible. I met 100's of folks giving tours of HQ on Sundays, during Ambassador One weekends, special events, etc. I was always around, usually with a camera during most of the 80's if there was a big deal event it was my job to be there. The even imported me to Emporia to shoot a couple of the Corps weddings. Thanks for the complements def. I apprecialte your opinions. I knew my TWI experience wasn't the norm but I had no idea things were so bad on the field. Discussions were not only encouraged at the root you could "get into trouble" for NOT speaking up. At least I did. I did a lot of work directly for VPW and the trustees. Spent a good bit of time in & out of the motorcoaches, in meetings of one sort or another. VP actually got more than irritated at me one time when I asked him what he thought I should do on a project he had asked me to do. He told me, "You're the professional, don't ask ME what to do you should TELL me what you're Going to do. I'll tell you what I'm thinking and you just go do what you do. If I could do what YOU do, I wouldn't need you around here, would I?" "Nope." I said. "Cool then I'll do it & show you what I'M thinking, then we can talk about it & finishe it up." He said "OK. Just call Karen when you're ready." I thought most things on the field went like that. I'm seeing now that the believer that came to visit on weekends were not a representative sampling of how things were, nor were my experiences when I went out on the field. I mean I knew people were on their best behavior when HQ staffers or VP was around; but really...telling people to do it again until you come up with the same thing we already know...rediculous. The research dept would discuss and sometimes argue about stuff a lot. We'd get articles submitted from the field for TWMag, even JAL's, and say stuff like, "We can't print this crap!" We'd send it back to the author, under a deadline, "If you don't correct it and get it back by _________. You won't get in the mag."Back in the day, when it was in vogue to speak out against cults, "lots" of mainstream ministers would read exerpts from TWI books, TWMag etc. as parts of their presentations. This was about 20 or so years ago though. Not too many know & even fewer care about TWI, today, although it IS firmly ensconsed in ALL of the cult books

You know Steve, I get things revealed to me on the toilet everyday. They always stink though.

cool.

They really believe Eve was lesbian? How did they ever get to YHAT? Wouldn't she have to have been Bi? Or do they say that Even didn't bear Adam children because she was gay? If they believe stuff like that; they're not dong research, they're doing magic!

To begin, for those of you who may not already know, I worked in TWI's Way Publications Department basically, from 1979 until 1988. I say this not to place myself as an "unlitmate" authority, but to just say, "Hey, I was 'there." personally involved, and have actual knowledge of many of the things discussed here in terms of what TWI did & didn't publish, and some of the "why's" what was & was not done. Of course I don't know everything and didn't see everything and wasn't involved in everything. But I do know some stuff, maybe even "quite a bit." In my post TWI days, though, I've adopted what I'll call, for the sake of communication, a "bottom line" approach to Christianity in general. One of the biggest personal changes in my post TWI years has been to look and listen to, and not just summarily dismiss, other Bible teachers. I've personally attended other churches, and even listen to Christian radio, read other authors, the whole gamut. I feel I've continued to grow and flourish in my reationship with God & our Lord JC. At least that's my intent. That being said. I posted the above quote to help communicate my two cents worth in this discussion with thanks from JB. He said it first.... My first point is that, regardless of what or how anyone thinks of VPW, his discretions or qualities, or lack thereof; discussions like this thread are precisely what he wanted us to do. Speaking as one of the team of people who actually produced "his" published works; he told us to use his works as a starting point and go beyond him. That was his desire for ever class, every book, every teaching. That even accounts to some degree for his choices as to what topics he actually published on. To point out and make effort to correct his errors, IMO, is more a tribute to him than a crucifiction. We did it in Way Pubs. I remember editors constantly lamenting on his grammar, misquoting scripture references, getting things backwards, etc. Whereas we respected him, wenever say his work as "perfect," God breathed, or anything else. To us VP was "one of our authors." The boss, obviously, but certainly not flawless. The editors won some and lost some editorials w/ him & his ghost writers & "main" editors through the years. The "tribute thing" is obviously, dependant upon the position and attitude of the individual "pointer-outer." Whereas I also highly respect Chuck Swindoll, my "bottom line approach" only allows me to place him in JB's quote above, substituting his name for VPW's and some of his "best" Biblical teachings and conclusions for those of VPW's. Reason being that there are some things I've heard Chuck Swindoll say in interviews, teachings, books, etc. that I wouln't give the SAME plugged nickel that I wouldn't give for some things that I've heard, VP say, teach, write and even SAW him DO, as I have had the proximity to VP as mentioned above. I'd do the same with Tony Evans, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jim Dobson, Florence Littauer, Tim LaHey, Sam & Geri Lang, Patrick Morley, Bill Perkins, Dr, Phil, Rick Warren & others, whose Names slip my mind right now. I've read at least one book by each of the above, and regularly take in teachings by others most Notably the senios past or the Church I'm a member of and and have attended for the past seven years. Each of the above, I've taken pieces of their teachings and perspectives and woven them into my life as things I believe and live by. All of this is built upon and in addition to things I felt were valuable from PFAL & Vp's other works. Mostly because I was exposed to VP prior to some of the others. Some of what VP taught established for me things I'd previously heard from Billy Graham, for example. I'm pretty sure Chuck Swindoll has read VP and done the same. Pretty much every "major" contempory Christian teacher of the day has read him or has had their staffers read him, just as VPW read others in his day & had his staff read others also. (How could he lift their works otherwise?) They have lifted VP also. Bottom line ALL of them/US have lifted and plaguarize(sp) GOD, as HE is the SINGLE source of all wisdom & knowledge. Nobody has it all and EVERYBODY (myself included) is WRONG about SOMEthing. Seeing as VP is now DEAD, why can we not let whatever evil intent he da DIE with him? NO, I'm not saying this because I luuuuuved VP. Actually I'm not sure I've ever even said I loved, him. I may have mentioned loving him in the same sense that I love ANYone who EVER had the grace in their heart to teach me ANYthing. But in the worshipful sense that I've seen & heard others say they loved him, Nope. Didn't hate him either. I was hurt deeply by the "results" of his "ministry" also, more deeply and to a wider degree than most. Bottom line is that God still says a lot of things I should do concerning those who have wronged me that are more for MY benefit than anything else. Sometimes I've read a book that I only got ONE thing out of, bottom line, I benefited THAT much from reading it. Bottom line, I'm always more concerned for those of us who are alive today and what we do now and where we're going now that I am about who's dead, where we were and where we went. I understand the point of Swindoll on his worst day against vpw on his best, in terms of how overall BAD VP's life vs. how good Swindoll's life & collective works may be in comparision. BUT. I also agree with the earlier post that thread's like this may do more harm than good. I agree in the sense that taking a negative, anti approach to ANYTHING does more harm than good, always. Persoanlly, I think the worst of the deceptive deceptions of TWI was how it isolated itself from the rest of the body of Christ, as if they were all LOST and 'we' were the ONLY ones found. I fought against that in all of my ten years as staff of TWI. I tried to bring a world class quality to my piece of what we did in terms of publications work, as did others. We, collectively, the writers & editors, artists & designers, research staff, etc. were, VPW the author, the SAME as it is with Swindoll, Graham, Dobson & others. In my church, there is a research team who compiles the facts figures, and provides the scriptural references, etc. that our senior pastor presents four times per weekend. One of the biggest things & took from my association was this: If you think Bill Clinton was the first US president to leave a sperm stain from doing an intern in the oval office... If you think there are no other pastors "doin' their congregants... no other "great teachers, MOG's lifting the works of others, no other Emron or Martha Stewart type C.E.O. getting over RIGHT now...or no other ministers using "God's Word" soley to build kingdoms and gain riches for themselves. RIGHT NOW, eave as you read this. You're naieve. TWI was NO different than the garden variety corruption that exists RIGHT now, basically everywhere. My current "pastor" said one of THE most hurtful, least insightful, most devastating things to me anyone could have possibly said. It was at the ZENITH, the APEX of the WORST time in my recent marriage that fell apart. At the time when I MOST needed his BEST he showed me his WORST. I couldn't bring myself to speak to him personally for the better part of a year and fight the same thoughts every time I've spoken to him since. I realize though that when I do that I'm doing so out of the HURT I felt at his hand. I'm also ignoring God's healing touch at the same time I allow those thoughts to take the forefront in my mind. SOME, if not most of the venom-spewing towards Vp, etc. is the same, speaking out of hurt. I am well acquainted with pain & know it VERY well when I see it. Please do not allow your pain to rob you of God's abundant blessings. James 1:1 - 5:20

Jb, Congrats on your kids too. You mentioned Dr. Phil. Dangit, I'd agree with that Dr. Phil remark on child abuse too. I'm sure you've seen how applying discipline via guidance works on children, PERIOD. Even if they are not your own. I'm like "the favorite Dad" in both of my littleone's classes @ school. Its more because I apply a little "don't do that - do this, do what your teacher says" kinda discipline when I'm there more than how much fun I have with them. Even kids I don't know, especially the Kindergarteners want to give me a hug right after I say, "Hey! STOP that." The discipline actually give children comfort. When they are helped to see boundaries they can work in, they actually chill out, relax & behave "better." Don't you think? On the surface this is a derail but I do think it relates. I really believe that if we really BELIEVED God was an all powerful Fatrher with unlimited resources and a desire to love us, we'd NEVER consider that his salvation was anything BUT permanent.

Yo. CM If THAT's not cool, I don't know what is... I can't wait for the day the trumpet sounds.

Gee whiz ChattyK. You're such a warm and open soul. You are very welcome.

Thanks ChattyK. Being a father is one of the two greatest things a man can do. One of the greatest complements I've ever received was when my daughter was talking to me about one of her friends who had told her that she, the friend, didn't think her father loved her. This friend has been a pretty constant topic of discussion. Things like, "Dad, You'll never believe what _________ did this time." Nothing really bad, just stuff that irritates my daughter & their other friend to no end. Like she's so neurotic, kinda stuff. I asked my daughter, "Think about this. Do you have ANY doubt whatsoever that I love you and would walk through the hottest fire for you?" She said "No. ... Dad." In that very teenage, "...what a stupid question... don't you already KNOW the answer..." tone of voice. My daughter has trouble grasping the concept that a father COULD not love his daughter. We went on to talk about the situation with her friend for the next hour & 1/2. Of all the mistakes in my life, I've busted my foot to never miss the mark and hit the bull's eye on things that are the most important to HER. I have sacrificed, given up more lucrative professional opportunities to move elsewhere, just because when she was a little girl and I said, "Daddy has a chance to get a really good job if I moved..." Her eyes began to fill up with tears, so I said, "...but I'm not taking it. Daddy's gonna stay right here, where you are." I wiped the tears from her eyes, hugger her, kissed her on the cheek & said, "Daddy will NEVER leave you; never." I haven't. Now she's preparing to leave me. She's a National Merit Scholar preparing for her freshman year at Yale University who believes there is not a boy in the world who can MAKE her do anything. If she had a boyfriend (which she doesn't) who wanted to be with her in collges she says HE can switch HIS college to come with HER. She then MIGHT continue to date him, IF she had time. I don't worry much about her getting raped, I worry about what she might do to somebody who tried it. You will not find a young lady with a higher sense of self esteem that her... she's tops. She knows I believe in her, I believe she is BEAUTIFUL, I believe she is GOOD, I believe she is SMART, and I believe that a decision she makes WILL be well thought out, even if I don't agree with it. She also knows if I don't agree with her, we'll talk about it and I will let her konw clearly what my thinking is and she has the right to do the same with me. This isn't a derailment, this is a discussion of a loving relationship between father & child. This is what is at the root of my position in thinking that there is just NO way that our FATHER GOD, would ALLOW us to go to HELL... AFTER HE redeemed us from death. I understand the free will to choose stuff & embrace it. No, no way, no how, nope, nada. WOuld God leave that up to us, especially when he ALSO redeemed us from blowing it the first time. I have learned, from my CHILDREN... that there is a point at which their "love tank" is full. When its full and you keep right on pouring on the love to over flowing, they take the excess love and use it fuel EXCELLENCE in their lives. When the tank is on full they have NO problem accepting that THEY don't have to do ANYTHING to earn love. When it is overflowing they have NO problem accepting that there is equally NOTHING they can do to LOSE the love. They don't cause it to happen, they CAN'T stop it from coming. They feel free to do ANYTHING. even stuff they know they shouldn't do, BECAUSE, before they do it they KNOW, their Daddy will STILL love them... when "the trucks are broken." If you can't get with what I'm saying, its cause maybe YOUR "love tank" isn't full?

Gee what a fricken love fest this is turning out to be... I even agree its another thread but, since we're talking about it... Today at my church, we had this guy Josh McDowell, a world renouned, best selling author & speaker there talking about this very subject. I'm not a bandwagon kinda guy but he said some very compelling stuff. After giving some of the normal statistics about the percentages of kids likely to "go bad" in single parent homes, (about 36%) he mentioned this very alarming one... In dual parent homes the statistical likelyhood of kids "going bad" is DOUBLE that of single parent households when the children have either a distant, or "absent" relationship with their fathers. His point was that it is not the fact that there is a father or not there but it is the QUALITY of the parental relationships that determines whether or not children will rebel. He listed some scriptures from Psalms, etc. that speak of the surety of God's unfailing love and related how when we parents, specifically Fathers build the security of our unconditional love into our children that makes them much more likely to listen to what we say and not stray from our example. I have long been a believer in how when we fail to successfully model for our children what we say to them and tell them to do, we will succeed in building rebellious children. I believe that we as fathers MUST convince our children beyond a shadow of their doubt two things: 1. We love them, period. No matter how much we may HATE what they do, we STILL love THEM. 2. We CAN be trusted. We DO say what we mean and mean what we say. I do not, nor will I ever believe, children "turn out." I'm aware of the things pulling children to rebel; deal with it on a daily basis. I believe you can predict with a high degree of certainty, if a child will rebel. I believe a parent can "lose" a child before age three, by age two, actually, if said parent teaches child they can't be trusted. I see parents doing that regularly, then wonder why, and say, "I can't get my kid(s) to do a damn thing I say." One of the biggest traps he set for children is the well intentioned parent who doesn't recognize the subtle nature of his traps. This subject is a BIG can of worms. Suffice it to say that the unconditional love of a father to his children gives that child the greastest opportunity to excel and succeed. I think that plays into this discussion in that when we know for certian that we can't "blow" our salvation that releases us from the fear and insecurity that comes with "I must do this or God will kill me..." Freedom to fail give the child the wings to fly to success.

I've looked at about 10 other english Bible versions & they spin Ephesians 1:14 more like this: Most of them speak of the "earnest" as a down payment, or deposit that guarantees that there is definitely more to come than that.I'm thinking the new body, living in the new heaven & earth thing is the balance of the promise, secured by the down payment. I lean that way because the Word does speak specifically about our works, judgement and rewards, in terms of keeping or losing rewards.

Actually, I don't disagree with that either, Jerry. Its hard for me to communicate some points clearly though. The Bible is clearly no every, EVERYthing. You're right I certainly ain't gonna do a word study and choose a wife from it. Looking back on that subject, especially seeing as I had my ex-mother in law standing in my living room today and agreed with her that I should have listened to her when she said certain negative things concerning her daughter BEFORE I married her. Looking BACK there WAS the "still small voice" then, that today I can't honestly argue WASN'T God, especially, seeing what time has told.... I'm not gonna sweat over it though. So we don't disagree on the revelation thing either. For example: My car is down, out for repairs and I needed to bum a ride some where I really wanted to get to. A "still small voice" "said" to call "so & so." I did, not even knowing what to say to her, even though I knew she didn't have room in her car to give me & the boys a ride. I started to chit chat & the friend said, on her own with out my solicitation, "Hey. You need a ride to Alpha? Libby's going & she would love to come pick you guys up! I'm thinking about going & I could meet all of you there." I was "amazed." (not really :)-->) Convinced that I'm finally getting this "still small voice" thing down. It was cool. I'd NEVER have thought to ask Libby on my own AND I don't even have her phone number. It seems like we're gonna have to find something else to argue about.

One of the single most starting moments I've experienced in terms of spiritual growth since leaving TWI was the day that it dawned on me. It dawned on me that the day when I stand at the Judgement seat of Christ, I'd be alone. There would bo no John Lynn's, or LCM's, or VPW, or even Mommy or Daddy or even Satan himself standing there with me as I gave account for my actions in MY life, MY decisions. That changed the way I see most everything when it comes to what anyone else did TO me. It also never ceases to amaze me that people who got involved w/TWI in search for God, to learn His word as it hadn't been taught for centuries, so readily abandon the same word of God when it comes to their present conduct. Apparently some have either forgotten that fact or perhaps they no longer care about that. Somehow the crimes, or sins of others justify people in abandoning what they DO know of how God says they should conduct their own lives. Do you really want to stand before God and give account as to why you "crucify" and judge and "spit on" and deride anybody else's life? Don't you know that if it was EVER your hearts desire to REALLY know God and have an intimate relationship with Him and you have abandoned that because you encountered a "snake oil salesman" along YOUR travels; it is YOU who have given up YOUR power to the "evil one?" The traveling salesman still "wins." No matter HOW right you are in what you say about how wrong someone else WAS or IS in what THEY did or do; it makes YOU look bad when you do it like has been done here on this thread. When you walk in mud your feet get dirty, no matter how clean your shirt is. When you sling mud your hands get dirty, no matter how clean your face is. When you spew vomit out of your mouth is makes YOUR breath STINK. This is one dirty, stinking thread. If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, don't try to cram it on.

Looking forward TO a divorce is much more scary than looking BACK on one. That is what I discovered after my first divorce. It still didn't make looking at the second divorce any easier. I felt like such a personal failure. Here I was, so successful in every area of my life, but yet, THE most important realtionship in my life was flushed right down the crapper like sh@t. I felt horrible. Like I had ruined my whole life, like I had let down everyone who would be surpirsed that I had gotten divorced. Even contemplated suicide because my life had been ruined.... or so I thought it was. Then the second time, I was like, "Didn't you LEARN anything??? There must be SOME thing, SOME way SOME how that I could have saved it. Here I was going down in flames again on this lifetime commitment thing. My experience is that divorce, like climbing a mountain is always hard, no easy way about it. Not for the spouse that cares about the marriage, at least. You must climb, step by step, and keep climbing until the climb is finished. I wish I could say it gets easier. It doesn't. I wish I could say there's a silver lining. There isn't. Being divorced, takes one set of problems and replaces them with another set of, hopefully more manageable problems. I remember feeling horribly cheated the day I realized that you can divorce and end a marriage but you can't marry and end a divorce! Even if you remarry the same person, which is highly unlikely.... Its kinda ironic that divorce is more of a "lifetime commitment" than marriage. On the bright side. I'm far enough down the road from the pain of the first divorce that "all I remember," so to speak of the first spouse is the stuff I once liked aobut her. This goes to say that, "this too, will pass." Xena, a lot of divorce is just moving through it. Once you've decided to do it, ain't nothing to it but to do it. Lots of folks soften the blow with rebound relationships. Many find after the divorce, like sharon did, that they can re establish some of the good and be friends with the Ex. For me the excitement of re-claiming MY life pulled me through. You are the light at the end of your OWN tunnell. That's exciting. Some of what I learned of myself post divorce is that I am ABSOLUTELY a good guy. If someone doesn't want me, as I AM, it is THEIR loss. Currently, rather than being "an accident ready to happen" I'm "a great relationship on the horizon." Armed with that knowledge, I don't see myself as "alone" I see myself as available but higly selective. I see myself as one who is valued by God. I refuse to be with anyone who is not FIRST willing to value me as God does. I don't want anyone that I'm not excited to value as God values them. Currently I haven't really looked, as I'm happy with where I am in the "reclaiming process." Sometimes its a reinvention process. Sometimes its a new creation process where I decide, "I've never been thus and so, but NOW I want to... That's exciting too. In short take some time to find enough things to make yourself such a bright light at the end of the tunnel that YOU light the way for yourself as you travel through it. The divorce tunnel doesn't come with lights. YOU're the light.

Thanks again WW. Funny you should say that about WTH, you confirmed for me that what I thought might be a pattern really is one. I "wonder" if WTH is Mike. Hey Mike, what's up with the tag team thing? WTH.... What the HAY? It seems like you're "both" operating on the "principle:" If you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance; baffle 'em with your ..... We're NOT baffled though.... btw WordWolf, I AM dazzled by your patience and perserverence in constantly confronting this "mike-ology." ChattyK: Although I presented it in a semi-humorous manner, I'm dead-dog serious about what I feel the true source of this God-breathed PFAL thing is. Please don't get taken in by this stuff. I DO, firmly, believe that whereas there may be SOME merit in reading the PFAL materials, the concept of mastering PFAL as presented here, in search of the goal as stated by Mike is a direct Satanic attack. Said attack is just another insideous attempt by our adversary the devil to STEAL, KILL and DESTROY. There is nothing in PFAL that a person couldn't learn elsewhere. (Mike, tell me ONE thing that you would recommend a person, who is say, an elder in his local church, one thing that he could ONLY learn from PFAL.) The end goal of Mike's never-ending ramblings on this subject is NOT even what he says it is. His goal is evident, what he wants is what he's getting, people who read him, talk with him even argue with him. He makes statements like that and the statements encourage people to continue the "debate." To quote ettiquette teachers, "what he DOES speaks so loud I can't hear what he says." I've been participating in a very, civil, informative, heavily scriptural discussion on another thread concerning, "Salvation, is it permanent?" If it should be that salvation is NOT permanent, following Mike's path would certainly lead to the loss of it. As admirable as it may seem to devote as much of one's time to a cause, as Mike CLAIMS to have put into this...let me ask, How much admiration do we give Satan, that old serpent, who seeketh to devieve the whole world? HE's been at his thing for the entire 6000 years of this Earth's existence. That right gang, only 6000 years. There are people out there who have PROVEN that the earth, at least the human involvement with it, is just around 6000 years old. THEY study the Bible, and science, and history, and palentology and have found that all they ALL agree. They travel the WORLD giving FREE lectures and seminars that give people, believer and non, REAL answers to really relevant questions. In addition to how old is the earth, they answer questions like: What about the dinosaurs? When and why did they die? What about all this evidence of man's evolution? Where did all of these races of people come from? What is the BEST evidence of the existence of God? They answer these and many more questions that PFAL could NEVER, in a million years, even begin to touch. They present EVIDENCE, then back it up with SCIENCE and scripture. When you leave one of their presentations you feel like, "Did not our hearts burn within us as we talked with him along the way?" I know MINE did. Just a little smidge of what I'm talking about. Concerning the existence of dinosaurs, and when did they exist. Genesis clearly states when God created soul life in animals (I think dinosaurs classify as animals, at least the DNA that scientists have been able to extract from fossils says they were). You take the fricken BONE a scientist has in his hand that proves something did exist, add that to the DNA that says it was an animal with similar DNA to animals alive today. Then add: The Bible says God created land animals on the fifth day. You can read earlier verses that say he did water & flying animals on the fourth day. It Goes on to say that on the FIFTH day... ... on the sixth day... It was the fall of Adam that introduced death and evil into man and the world in chapter 3. Prior to that there was no death and man had no knowledge of evil. If there was no death, how did the dinosaurs die? The TWI teaching concering Genesis 1:1 & 2 is bogus. (here's one of the PFAL errors, Mike.) There is NOTHING, no evidence, no science, no nothing to support what VP said about the war in heaven between God, & lucifer and his hosts CAUSING the Earth that was already created to BECOME, "tahoo va bahoo" AFTER having been created in an habital environment, where God supposedly made dinosaurs and the man-type animals that died, for no apparent reason - - other than this mysterious globally devasting event that was the war in "heaven." The Contemporary English Version says it most clearly... The the group I'm speaking of Answers in Genesispresents EVIDENCE that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time & the dinosaurs were animals like any other animals. In fact there are STILL "dinosaurs" living today. smaller ones. There are "authenticated" cave drawings made by men of men & animals that look like T-Rex, etc. I've seen them show photos of people today that have every skull type they say are phases of the evolutionaly cycle. Check out their website. They actually have information on it Answers in Genesis is a non denominational ministry commited to defending the Christian faith and upholding the accuracy of the Bible... from the very first verse. My point is, that if there was anything to teach that could actually cause us human to ascend to the higher, Godly, level of existence, AND Mike actually wanted us to reach this nerdvana WITH him, in all these years he would have taught us some of it himself. That truth would have made us free from this neverending debate. "...shatch!" (((((((def))))))) ????

Ok CM. I'm listening, for one. :)--> I think the face that Jesus never wrote any of the Bible is irrelevant. Jesus WAS the original Living epistle. HE is the SUBJECT of the Bible and is mentioned in EVERY book of the it, either directly, in terms of prophecy, or as reflected in the ideas, attitudes and situations and character of the focus of each. In a sense, he IS the Bible. I can't see how him actually writing some of it would make a difference.

Ok Jerry. I wasn't there, so I'll give you your points on a conversation I wasn't part of, no matter how well I may know Ken & Sue, I can't say what they did or didn't say to you. :)--> Let's say that's true... and I John is saying, (1:8) "If we, unsaved unbelievers, say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (v:9) If we unsaved confess our sins, He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness... once and for all." ...Would be his position, contrary to your's, right? I'm guessing....because if, ... I wonder, How much?Which much? Forgive me but I always thought, "you" plus "me" equals "WE." The first sentence of 1 John says If that is not addressed TO born-again believers, then the writer is not a born-again believer. He refers to THEM as WE. It does switch to YOU and WE in v:4 "And these things write we unto you , that your joy may be full. (v:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you , that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." V:6-9 goes back to just WE. If the writer was talking about THEM, the unbelievers, why is he saying WE? The grammatically correct pronoun would have to be YOU... "If YOU confess YOUR sins..." YOU can get saved, like me, THEN you + me = WE. I can't get with what you relate of Ken's position cause it says WE. Zeal to score a point? Not really, my friend. Whereas I DO thoroughly enjoy a healthy discussion of the scriptures, like this one, I have absolutely no desire to "score points." I try to never zoom past stuff, just so I can say what I have to say.I actually basically agree with your ...most especially TWI. They spent way too much time trying way too hard to set and then PROVE their positions.... Definitely self serving.BUT. Yes, Jesus never wrote an epistle, he WAS the original LIVING epistle, to be known and read of all. Yes, the Bible is not supposed to be our "only rule of faith & practice" (another one of those self-serving ruses) it is simply ALL things that pertain unto life and Godliness which is a l i t t l e bit better than the "only rule of faith" thing. Its a LOT more than a primer, a point of reference to get started... The Bible is EVERYTHING, the alpha and Omega, ALL things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life. Your position indicates to me that you just don't know ENOUGH of the Bible to see it that way. Thanks about the trucks, they ARE just toys though. I haven't fixed them & the boys don't miss 'em. I chose that analogy I thought it was appropriate to the subject matter. Aren't we talking about losing one's salvation by sinning? It had lots of sin in it. I added the fact that althought THEY didn't see some of what they were doing as sin. I DID. I think you maight have missed THAT point, which is in relation to losing one's salvation, there are things we do that WE don't RECOGNIZE as SIN but God does. Therefore it would be entirely possible for a person to lose his salvation and NEVER even KNOW it. God DOES want us to be conscious of sin. He wants us to KNOW sin, HATE sin and FLEE from sin... All the while being conscious of the fact that, "when I sin, it is no longer I that do it but SIN that dwells in me." (Romans 7:)--> He wants us to know that WHEN we sin it is BECAUSE we are drawn away of our own lusts, enticed by them (James 1:14). He wants us to know that our action of confessing our sins allows God to cleanse our unright living. Our confession is for US, in our minds, it puts us in a place where we can receive from God and He can work with us. He also wants to know that IF we sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. If one understands the Old testament, how they were absolutely cleansed, for a while, by the blood of the passover lamb, which was of the earth, earthy (and therefore IMperfect), you can clearly undertand how Jesus' being the PERFECT sacrifice absolutely cleanses us PERFECTLY. The problem come with misunderstanding the concept of PERFECTION ... and INCorruptable. You simply can NOT corrupt something that CAN'T be corrupted. God also told us in John that he who is born of God CANNOT sin - - Our incorruptable spirit can NOT sin. We sin in our bodies, in our minds. Our minds must be renewed (Romans), cleansed, (1 John) cleansed of all unrighteouness (un-right-living) is a continual process, since "if we say we have no sin we lie." In terms of your analogy, I do not believe children "just turn out that way." I accept if you "train up a child in the way he should go, when he is old, he will NOT depart from it," as absolute truth. SO, the simplest answer to your question is this: If I had promised to split my estate equally between my two sons, they would get equal portions, PERIOD. Regardless of what they would do with the money; my children know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that IF DAD says something absolutely, it absolutely WILL happen, absolutely as DAD said it would. I see your point. However the ONLY way the sons would get unequal portions would be if I had told them that their inheritance would be proportionate to their good works. In that case evil son would get NOTHING, and he would expect nothing because I would have informed him at every turn that his evil works were not even in the inheritance ball park. I would have made it crystal clear that: 1. The principle; Inheritance goes to the righteous was in effect. 2. You, son, are in violation of said principle. 3. Should you continue, you get NOTHING. 4. The choice is YOURS. I love you either way. HOWEVER. I run my household with the foundation that I NEVER make a promise to my children that I can't keep. I "never" forget my promises to them, beyond what they remember. IF a promise I've made happens to slip my mind and ANY one of them says, "Daddy, you said I could...." The worst they ever get is "Did I say that?" "They say "Yes." and I say. "OK" & it happens, no matter what, where we are or when it is. This helps my children to trust me. Therefore when I say, "Being a Warlock is WRONG, you shouldn't do it." They say, "Ok Daddy." and don't do it. SO. I'm completely confident that NONE of my children will make a turn down the wrong path like that. I believe that we parents TEACH our children that they should not believe us. If they turn against us it is because we have turned them. I believe there ARE absolute truths that we CAN hold onto and they WILL set us free. One is that once God gives you the gift He lets you keep it.

Nobody is saying that VF can't honestly look at the scriptures and come to his conclusion....The biggest difference between Jerry and Vince is that Vince is teaching his conclusions from a pulpit and leading others as a "minister of God." and Jerry is saying to others, not in a capacity as a minister, "This is what I think." God makes a HUGE distinction between one who would lead GOD'S flock and one who speaks, flock member to flock member. The distinction is that when "jerry" speaks and says, "this is what I think," that's all that is implicit within his remarks. When "Minister Vince" says "this is what I think" the implication is, "what I think is what YOU SHOULD think." That makes all the differnce in the world to God. His position is this: "When you lead MY flock, you'd BETTER be right. Woe unto you if you're not." God doesn't hold Jerry to that standard. I believe that the nature of every official words a minister speaks, makes him "special." When he's wrong, ALL it does is make him "special" in the eyes of his followers. Being right makes him Blessed of God, ALSO in addition to being special to "his" people. God instructs the flock to "esteem them highly in love, for the sake of their work as your leader." Vince may be sincere, but he's wrong. We won't lose our salvation if we are not faithful til the end. To honestly come to that conclusion one must honestly ignore SOOOO much clear scripture and stand up & say, "No, YOU, and all this stuff is WRONG, I am right." Pretty damn presumptuous. ANY, and EVERY wrong thing taught from the pulpit becomes a ruse, all it can accomplish is to get peolpe to follow the minister, because he has ceased from following God on each and every wrong thing he teaches. VF has taken the very centerpiece of the Christian faith, the new birth, and said, "Even though God clearly said, 'Ye MUST be born again'.... He wasn't REALLY talking about salvation being BIRTH that IS YOU being BORN, and saved from the wrath to come. Its really some sort of 'condition,' a 'situation' or better yet, a 'trust' that you partake of and 'carry.' You must carry it, being faithful to the trust ALL the way until the end. If you are not faithful to it, or you drop it, even though God ALSO says you WILL, in fact, drop it; because you don't have the ability to carry it; you will LOSE it. You are NOT saved, you will ONLY become saved, later, that is IF you happen to be holding it until the end. The end being the return of the liar who said you would be BORN, or YOUR end, potentially, being when YOU die. If you're not holding it at the end, sorry 'bout yer luck pal, love ya, see ya, wouldn't wanna BE ya!" The new birth is directly tied to the death of Adam. The life God gave Adam was eternal. The life purchased back by the second Adam IS eternal. It really IS that simple.

So Mike, that it? Master PFAL cause God is using it to "invite us up to His level? I've heard that one before. Let me rephrase that:"... Mike said unto us, ye shall not surely remain a failure: For God doth know that in the day ye mastereth PFAL, your eyes shall be opened and you will be on the same level as God , knowing how to manifest His power." I knew this whole thing had a familiar ring to it.... Can you be more specific in your answer?