HCW

I remember something about VP talking to the Coors guy and some other corporate presidents in the motorcoach parking area at the Indy 500. They all had their custom coaches parked next to each other, were talking about features on their coaches, then were talking about the size of their companies. If I'm talking about the same incident there was one of the heads of a major US car producer there too. Of course they do billions per year and VP's company only did a paltry $22 million. I remember vp saying he sort of shut them up by saying something to the effect of, "My ministry gets 85% (a factual statement) of it income from freewill offerings, how much would your company make if people could buy your cars and pay whatever they feel like they're worth." That was his story. I remember thinking, Yeah, and you use it to go to Indy every year in your $800k motorcoach. WE drive WOW mobiles and listen to your stories about the race. I was more ....ed tham impressed.

Yeah JL. Seeing his hand, you would never believe that thing could hold anything. It was the kind of thing that would scare small children, I kid you not. It was the old, "You'll never drive again thing." He really did overcome the odds. Most people could never drive a car like that with two great hands. It was interesting. I remember it so well because I felt honored to meet somone with that kind of hutspa, kahones, or whatever you want to call it. yer welcome!

Hey Johnny, I remember Salt. He's from Dayton. I met him in a Restaurant/Bar here called Elsa's. I used to hag there with "the guys" from a brokerage firm I used to work for. Salt & his team would also hang there when he was in town. Yeah, he was a pretty cool guy. He always wore a black driving glove on his right hand because he'd had all five of his fingers amputated at the second knuckle. He did that hand squeeze thing pretty much everywhere he went. We were out drinking one night at Elsa's (known around town for their giant margarita called the "Bad Juan"). Of course we were having Bad Juan's, (if you're ever in Dayton and you like margaritas, Elsa's Bad Juan is worth stopping for) It is recommended that you don't drink more than one, because Juan is BAD and he WILL kick your A$$! So the legend goes. Another guy we worked with had 3 over lunch one day. We carried him back to the office propped him up in his chair with his telephone headset on and covered his client calls. He eventually fell over, out of his seat into a fetal position on the floor. Juan is a BAD mutha..., "Shut yo mouth!" "But I'm talking 'bout Jaun!" "....and we could dig it...." I'm not a big drinker, but I actually had two Bad Juan's that night while shootin' the breeze with Salt. We were getting along pretty well and I said, "Hey Salt, what's up with the glove? You think you're Michael Jackson or somethin?" He proceeded to do his hand squeeze thing on me, I was a wrestler all through high school and have a pretty firm grip myself, so when he squeezed, he was telling me how lots of really big guys wince in pain & cry like babies for him to let go. I said, "Oh really?" and put my own little vice grip on him. For a few minutes we were a couple of real hand squeezin' fools! Every time he squeezed a little harder, so did I. It was one of those testosterone-laden, male bonding moments in "margaritaville." He bought me a drink & said, "You got a pretty good grip for a stockbroker!" "You got a pretty good grip too, stubby!" I answered - back slapping, laughing, grunting, etc. followed. He took off his glove & showed me his hand. It was pretty darn U-gly. He was in a horrible, firey wreck at Indy (which I think I happened to see on TV) and his fingers were melted to the steering wheel. They had to cut the fingers off to get his hand loose. That squeeze thing was about his rehabbing his hand so he could still handle an Indy car at 200+ miles per hour. I was impressed, felt like my fingers were gonna pop off. I had to squeeze to keep my hand from exploding! He gave me an open invitation to come down to his shop, he was gonna let me fire up his Indy car. I didn't know he'd been at Emporia & never told him I was ex TWI - never came up.

I don't have a problem with the basic concept of Child Support. The basic problem I have is with the unfairness inherent in the current system. I totally agree that the entire system needs an overhaul. If I do have a problem with the entire child support system and the concept, it is based in the fact that when I was married, the court said absolutely NOTHING about how I would disperse my funds in support of my children. There seems to be a basic assumption that because my wife and I could not get along to the extent where we split up, & legally ended OUR marriage (understanding the contract aspect of the institution) that I would refuse to provide monitary support for my child IF she doesn't live with me. It also appears to presume that I, as a father, would also abandon said child along with her mother. Please don't muddy the waters of what I'm saying by throwing in the female end of the equation. It should be 100% clear that the current system is designed under the foundational model that Mom get the kids in a divorce and Dad pays for them. Anything else is considered exceptional to that rule of thought. Besides. I of all people know the flip side. I'm living the opposite where the women did the abuse, abandoning, etc. You can actually just flip the script, substitute male for mfemale. I believe the entire Child support system is as antiquated in today's society as an IMB 386 computer. We have made certain specific societal advances. I do not believe women should be automatically shackeled with custody of their children any more than men should be automatically shackled with child support. I have been paying child supoprt faithfully for 15 years myself. The CSEA would say otherwise. The current system was just not set up for people like me. It varies from county to county, state to state and if you don't fit their model, you're in for a world of hurt. Being unemployed to the CSEA is tantamount to being criminal, in that they use the courts and the precise methodology they use on criminals for enforcement. Said methodology includes the use of Police, who carry guns, and are empowered to kill you under certain circumstances, and the use of encarceration. The current system can and does create criminals. In some ways it inspires criminal behavior in people who might otherwise never threaten society in a criminal way. Agencies like the CSEA have blurred the line between being "bad" and being criminal. They have given power to people who are NOT trained and properly educated to wield it as they do. Judges make sweeping decrees that reflect more of a "wild wild west" mentality that best interest of the children.

After a divorce children need stability. Yes. It isn't axiomatic that the stability come from the Mom, ask my kids, all five of them, espeically the national merit scholar would say their Dad is the best one to provide that. Giving men custody frees a woman to prosper in the ever leveling playground of professional America. Same as I male. - It is appalling what they do to our sailors there is nothing in MY job description that includes actually having a gun stuck to my head. Why do they get paid so comparatively little yet they are REQUIRED to live to such a higher standard under UCMJ??? I'm talkin' bout fairness right? I can finally see, based on my own experience... I can see why they're temted to do that - - although I still think they should be shot.Absolute jerks, & a$$holes aside. The system doesn't catch them. They system grabs ME & guys like me who report to them as required. The INDIVIDUALS who work it on a daily basis take out their frustrations from the absolute deadbeats on US. - In Ohio divorce papers come by certified mail. If you don't get your certified mail, and you don't show for your hearing, you get what you lose. They have recently started sending them regular mail also. - I believe obligees, who receive Support, should be required to document their spending of it on the children or lose it. Presently their only "requirements" are that they keep their addresses current. - I believe obligees should be required to seek work to pay their end of the percentage formula, same as obligors do; under the SAME consequences.

Hello Sharon. I haven't been offended by anything you've said. 1. Yes, is it factual that women suffer financially after a divorce.2. It is an accepted statistical fact that women performing the SAME functions as men, generally get paid less than equally educated and qualified men. Bathering anound as we may be, I wasn't really trying to say how well women do after divorce. My real point is that states make men support women after divorce. Thanks for the complement about my appearing honorable. Trust me, I know MOST men are not. I have yet to speak about how I feel about true "deadbeat dads." At this point, I'm speaking to how the system WILL "get you." I also understand how short CS falls when it comes to actually SUPPORTING children. BOTH of my ex-wives received support for one child each and it was significantly less than your medical insurance. Pointing out a fact, does not amount to whining in my book. OK? :)--> Traditional divorce thinking, as someone else said IS, that children go with Mom & Dad visits and pays support. I also know the statistics that support the tradition thinking. I'm appalled that so many fathers spend so little time with their children. My points in my post were also presented in this light, "If you lose control, here is what CAN happen to you - - It happened to me." I also wanted to say, "You can still fight and 'prevail." But is IS an uphill battle for men for men to get custody of their children and a downhill slide for women. As far as Child Support goes... my personal position is that the whole system needs an overhaul. eg: In marriage #2. I had other children who were equally mine as the daughter from marriage #1. I was FORCED to pay child support to "Child #1." under constant threat of incarceration and all of the other stuff I've already mentioned. After paying for medical insurance for all of my other children there was so little left that my spending was drastically disproportionate between #1 and chilren, #'s 2, 3, and 4. The problem was not so much that I had to pay support. The problem, as I see it is that there is no requirement that Mom share in MY cost to purchase health insurance for HER/our child. I support and insurance, Mom gets HER child insured "for free" plus I give her money to pay "for the needs of the child." Any parent knows that it takes a potentially never-ending fountain of funds to raise a child. I believe it is the fact that women generally DON'T get paid as much as men that contributes to a disproportionate view that women should be strapped with custody over men. I believe the real solution starts with paying women appropriately. It would be an easy thing to identify women in companies doing similar work as men & getting paid less. How many companies are willing to cut into their profits to equalize female salaries? Another statistic is how overwhelming the ration of male company owners, board members/ decision makers to women of the same. How about state legislators? Same misbalanced statistic. I'm not saying we need more women in positions like that I'm saying we simply need to REALLY be FAIR to women.

Well put my friend. I'm sure you understand, Galen, that I only mentioned your name figuratively, as one who is a true friend, a very present help in time of need... Right? That being said, Galen's quote above is great example of "the statement of the problem" one will have to overcome. First just by being male, and secondly as being the one filed against. Forgive me ladies, but the divorce playing field in this country is NOT level. It is tipped abour 85% in your (female) favor. Recent changes in the law haven't helped much either. Jesus' statement "be sharp as a serpent, but harmless as a dove." definitely applies, should one want to take a spiritual POV on this topic. Shrewd is a good way to put it also. In my case, wife #2 was so shrewd that she called me at work to specifically cancel a lunch date that she had set up on a particular Friday. Flags went up as I asked a few simple little, appropriate, but not too probing questions, like; "I can take my lunch a little later...." My office was only six minutes from home so I showed up about 8 minutes after the phone call to find her at home and her mother & step father dismantling bunk beds & loading them in a truck. The living room was already empty. The plan was that I'd come home to an empty house as my fist knowledge that she was "moving out." Others may get involved in your spouse's strategy as there are more people that you associate with who ALREADY know of your marriage problems. They pretty much know better than you, especially if you are the one who is "trying to keep it together." They've already formulated silent opinions. They usually wait to surface later, sometimes once you're in their living room, or out to lunch, or something like that and sigh, "Gee. Glad THAT mess is over." The level playing field is not impossible to overcome, just a mountain to climb. In divorce #1 I tried to take the total highroad, not realizing that I had been drug into the valley of death by the nature of the proceeding. I soon found that my just BEING "right" didn't matter to the court. I was already on a fast track to the "down the middle" split Galen described. I found myself in the position where I had to tape her phone calls to provide evidence that she was actually who I said she was. Otherwise that were NOT EVEN CONSIDERING giving me custody of my daughter. Once it became evident that I, as a professional had a potential earning capacity far beyond the mom, the court told me it was their intent to "free me" from the daily burden of raising my daughter so that I'd be free to persue my highest earning potential. I said, "WHAT!!!!???" Just like that, with all of the exclamation! I had to go as ballistic as I could get away with to SHOW the judge that I was serious, and NOT just trying to duck child support. I had to produce reams of information that my attorney reduced to a few well crafted legalese statements in court. The statements communicated to the court of my wife had abandoned her marriage, me AND the kids and was trying to "screw me over" in the process while she was actually having sex with another man - while I was alone at home with HER children. Still. I didn't get custody of my daughter. I did get an extended visitiation arrangement that was beyond the 'normal' extension. That meant I had my daughter at my home only 36 days less than half the year. (For tax purposes, this kept me from being able to clain her as my dependant. I'd have been able to claim her even without having custody if she "lived with me" for six months. This was the most I could say in terms of months was four, even though she was actually with me for a few days less than five. Talk about shrewd!) My right down the middle was like this: I got the house, AND the mortgage, I got MY car, she got hers, mine was the one with the payments. she got MY daughter, specifically because she had OTHER daughters from the last husband she had, (HEY! No fair! ) I won the no alimony, but still paid her standard of living via child support. I was able to prove she was a real B!#@& to me and had left me, and had parents she could live with (I had noone). I also proved that I was a great (good is NOT good enough to get custody) father and had sucessfully blended our family, accepting her children as my own. SO. They gave me the house and 75% of the bills gave hey my daughter (cause the court felt the children should be together as sisters) and made me pay for everything I kept and pay HER child support. THEN. Regardless of the fact that I actually had a job that I was going to start the following Monday following the hearing on Friday. They placed an "eternal" Seek Work Order on me that states that I MUST make PERSONAL contact with at least five potential employers each week, should I become "Unemployed." I'm court ordered to get a person's name, business address, and telephone contact information EVERY WORK DAY that I'm between contracts, or even on unemployment compensation and paying my support (albeit a reduced level based on the unemployment compensation, which they can LEGALLY take up to HALF). If I don't, in the event that I'm techinally 'unemployed,' provide a Seek Work Contacts form EVERY Friday. The CSEA caseworker can turn me into a CRIMINAL. They can: - report me to the judge as being in contempt of court, - suspend my drivers license, block my registration - suspend any other professional licenses I have - debit any banking accounts they find I have under my ss#. There's no problem as long as they get their money coming in on a regular basis. If it stops and the worker chooses. I'm in a world of hurt. Oh. I forgot to mention that on the date my FIRST suport payment was due I was already 10 weeks behind and therefore in contempt of court from DAY ONE. AND. If you owe any arrearage to Child Support, the CSEA reports it to the IRS who then confiscates your income tax return $$ to satisfy the arrearage. Over the past 15 years I've had three extended periods of "unemployment." After each period I've paid the arrearages down close to nothing, negating whatever pay increase the next pposition brought. Then, the arrearage stacks up quickly when you're out or work for a few months. Then is on to a "better Job" but no more money because they (CSEA) add a significant amount to your regular payment to pay down the arrearage... AND confiscate your income tax return. The same situation exists that Galen mentioned. Its a Catch 22. Once they set you up on support payments, if you get behind they order you into court. There they add an arrearage, based on your newfound ability to pay. This amounts to the same as a modification without the obligee asking for it. Once the obligee hears of your increased income, she can modify the amount you have to pay every three years. In Ohio. If the OBLIGEE, gets a pay raise, and the Obligor doesn't, she (98% of the time its a she ) can ask for a modification and INCREASE the amount the Obligor must pay! (The same or even a smaller percentage of a bigger total amount of $$ [parents' combined GROSS income] means a larger payment even though obligor has had NO increase in income.) I've been modified, then had a larger %age added in arrearage payments, AND had my tax return snatched; all in the same year that I got a new, signifiacntly higher paying job that I only worked 8 months in thay calendar year. It netted out to a significantly lower paying job that negated the concept of an upward career move. Being set back on my heels, defending the divorce, set a tone in the divorce. Its like comedian Jeff Foxworthy's old "You MIGHT be a Redneck" routine. "Because you've been accused, no matter how you answer, 'You MIGHT be an A$$hole!" So they treat you that way. It goes like this, "If you find that YOU're the Defen-DANT and the DEE-vorce was granted - - - "You MIGHT be an A$$hole!" Especially if you're a guy. If you're in the position. File FIRST, as questions later. You can always be nicer and set a more gentile tone to the proceedings. If you want to. On the other end of things you can only answer & make counter claims. Then its like, "If you make really extreme counter-claims in a DEE-vorce, but you apparently didn't care enough about them to file yourself; EVEN if your counter-claims ARE true... you STILL might be an A$$hole." File first.

How true THAT is. Filing first give you a direct tactical advantage. If you're in the midst of divorce or divorce is on the near horizon - - and you think like I did... this "tactical advantage" thing might be sour to you. I just wanted some peace, finally. I really didn't want the divorce. I held onto the "we can work this out if we could just...." concept. That was the first divorce. I learned something then, because I actually told her, "You're the one who wants out, you're the one who's broken your vows; YOU file!" I looked at it then like she should take responsibility for her actions and therefor take responsibility for the divorce. I was SO wrong! Then in the seocond marriage, I had told wifeee #2. while things were "good" how being the defendant in the divorce cast a shadow of dispersion on me in the legal proceedings. Being the defendant meant that I had to answer to all of her REDICULOUS claims. Your attorney may tell you, "It doesn't mean much." The things they say, we hear stuff like that everyday, people always exaggerate.... I DOES matter. When you're trying to settle on property and custody, especially, if your spouse has painted you as "satan" and themselves as a "saint" the difrst anf PRIMARY and ususally the thing(s) you want MOST may somehow, just "fairly" fall against you. Magistrates, judges, etc. are people too. You must CONVINCE them in an evidentiary manner of who you really are. The first words the court hears usually fly and set to tone for the rest of the proceedings. Its not impossible for the defendant to prevail. Just right next to it, very close to it actually. Especially since statistics are in favor of the plaintiffs, and the overwhelming majority of plantiffs are female, AND the courts are woefully aware of ALL of the statistics mentioned above AND all of the the "hiddend complaints, and reasonings for divorce. The court has "seen it all & heard it all." They will peg you if they can. Makes it easier for them to go home to their own families. They can more easily go to their own kids' soccer practices if they are not carrying YOUR baggage. The BEST way for you to navigate the stormy waters of a divorce is to be at the helm. YOU file,YOU file first. NO. its not "the" BEST. You can't get to BEST from here. Once your marriage is "over" best is no longer possible. It becomes a matter of choosing the lesser of evils. It boceome a matter of doing the highes good you can, for YOURSELF to preserve yourself so you can be YOUR personal best for your children (if you have any) or yourself to rebuild your life. I'm thinking, that when God was telling the them to write, "...though I walk through the valle of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil." He was prophetically including divorce. It really is the shadow of death. Death of your marriage, death of your hopes and dreams, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.... You must not be afraid of the evil that resides in the valley. The deeper the valley, the more evil you must wade through, the more "evil" you may be forced to do to prevail, ultimately. IF YOU DO NOT PREVAIL. YOU WILL NOT EXTRICATE YOURSELF FROM THE VALLEY ONCE THE DIVORCE IS FILE STAMPED AS COMPLETE. A successful divorce is one where, once its finished, you are as close to the top of the "valley" as you can get. Then your recovery will be "shorter" and less intense. All the best.

Is divorce ever God's will? "Beloved, I wish above all things that you would be prosperously healthy, even as your soul prospers." - - God. Please do not allow oftern regurgetated religous legalism spewed out of the mouths of people who have NO clue of your suffering to place you under misguided legalism. God would never have any of us suffer unjustly at the hand of ANY other human for even one second. I could fill this thread longer than both my outstretched arms with my experiences and the experiences of others I've witnessed, similar to what Galen posted. Suffice it to say, at this point. If the marriage is unhealthy to you, you have every right in God's eyes to get out. Or put the errant partner out. The system will chew you up and spit you out and destroy your children in the process. Your well-intentioned attorney will buy nice things with your money while you eat Ramen noodles and sleep on "Galen's" couch.

Look right here Horse. Answers in Genesis is a Christian apologetics ministry that equips the church to uphold the authority of the Bible from the very first verse. The thousands of articles and media programs on this site answer questions about creation/evolution, dinosaurs, and much more. I've seen their presentations, I've looked at their website and when their museum opens I'll make many regular trips there with my children. Answers in Genesis is everything that TWI in its most highest of ideals ever aspired to be. They give simple, Bible based answers to basically every question a person has about life on this planet. They combine the sciences, biology, palentology, archeology, chemestry, history and every other "ology" one can think of with a non-denominal, non sectarian view of the Bible, ancient texts, languages, etc al. with a $20. mil/year budget in effort to study the Bible and not PROVE, but UPHOLD its authority from the very first verse to the very last verse. They believe: - There was no death before Adam. - "Dinosaurs" lived on the earth the same time as man. Genesis 1:21 -26 tells that all animal life and man was created on the fith and sixth days. - Dinosuars are no different than any other species of animal that has become extinct in the past 6000 years. - There are still "dinosaurs" living on earth today. - Every skull type listed on Darwin's evolutionary chart can be found on living humans today. They have pictures and will even point out people in the audience who have "Neanderthal" or "Australopithecine," etc. skulls. - There is no "missing link" between humans and "evolutionary ancestors." No. There was not death prior to Adam's disobedience. "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17B (please remember there were no scripture verses nor punctuation...they [the verse designations & punctuation themselves] carry no Godly authority.) "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;" Genesis 3:18 Thorns, etc. was a result of Adam's sin, no thorns prior. It was Adam's sin that brought forth death via Lucifer, the father of lies, & author of death. The entry of Lucifers angels ...the flood of Genesis 6. The Satanic influence, more specifically when they decided to mate with human women. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. " (Genesis 6:2) Led to )V:4) "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (v:5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." ... which led to the flood. - Therefore, Dinosaurs were on the Ark with the other animals. Yes; It was big enough. - Adam had no navel, he was never connected with a mother in the womb. A navel is a scar from a nutrionary connection between a babe in the womb & the mother. Adam had no mother, he was FIRST. The mother of mankind (the rest of us) came from him. Man has one less rib.... - Carbon dating and other "accurate" dating methodology has been increasingly debunked by other equally proficient scientists. - There are dinosaur & other fossilized remains in sedementary layers in the grand canyon. - There are scientifically authenticated cave drawings in the US depicting men along with animals that bear resemblance to animals that look like the T-Rex and others with bird-like creatures that look like teradactyls. The drawings are post-flood, as evidenced by artifacts, & other scientific eveidence. The conclusion supports dinosaurs surviving the flood. - There are recent discoveries of dinosaur DNA found in bones that more accurately allows for aging and also matches animals living today. - There are plants listed in books as extinct and they have fossilzed remains of that they have found living today. Not extince. - It doesn't take millenia to make fossils, it takes only like, weeks or months, (check their website. They have step by step experiments, you can make your own.) - Lucy is a hoax. - There is NO evidence that the earth has existed for millions of years. The recent independant, unreligious scientifically "approved" theory is that the Earth is aproximately 6000 years old. A careful study of biblical geanologies puts Adam living about 6000 years ago. (The Earth is a few days older than Adam.) The entire planet was the ocean bottom during the flood. That stuff was you mentioned, Rascal, has been more recently found to support the flood and debunks the 25 million years ago thing. TWI was in fact mistaken. God did give an very detailed history. The Bible. We have not advanced intelectually as the human race. We have deteriorated. Humans once could read the entire word of God in the Stars. The Zoarostrians were good enough at it that they were able to come look at the stars and come to where & when the messiah was born. Answers in Genesis' website shold be a really fum playground for you Rascal. There is tons of stuff, new discoveries, revised older thinking on all of this stuff. More & more & more scientists are "finding" stuff that only fits with what was written in the Bible. It is so simple. You can read the truths from Genesis in English and get a LOT further with it than TWI led us to believe. Answers in Genesis actually covers TWI's Genesis belief in their seminars although not referring to any specific group. They speak of beliefs , belief systems, and simpley put all this stuf together and compare it with what the Bible says. They do get in to ancient languages some. but the eveindence is IVERWHELIMINGLY in FAVOR of the Bible. Check out their website for a time & place near you where you can take in their seminars, lectures, discussion groups, etc. Its FREE. They give answers to questions like; When did the dinosaurs die? - - When they died. They get into it and give you about six HOURS over two consecutive days of proof, historical, scientific, visual, and Biblical. ALL of it fits. Sorry for the length, but I get really jazzed by this stuff.

After all Belle SOMEbody has to pay for Benny Hinn's hairspray for his more abundant comb-over.

Geez. Hmm... So according to LCM's abundant sharing theory; I'm living according to TWI "standards" on $30K a year. I get promoted in my company because my manager retires. On Jan 1. I get the accompanying raise in my salary to $50k/yr. I then in my first and every subsequent paycheck simply write a bigger Check to TWI that includes the total difference between my last paycheck the previous December and the check that has the raise? THEN I should happily witness to my associates how my doing this will ensure that God continues to SPIT the more abundant blessings in my direction? Oh. I see.

Where? Shell, where? I thought you was West? Isn't that over there? You're not here. Me is here. I don't see you here. Then again I don't see me here either. So. where am I?

Yeah, what Dave said. Belle. If me don't know what I'm ignoring, have I really ignored it? Or is it just me? :D-->

Slap! WW. You're cool w/ me. preposition or no. (Is that a fragment? Beat me too)

Speaking as one who's been served and divorced twice, I would echo the physically and emotionally exhausting comments. Also seeing as I was once a "people who haven't been through it" I feel I can say how one cannot begin to imagine just HOW draining the whole process is. I've had days when I've been just stoppped in my tracks by it. Plopped into a seat and just couldn't move - my brain turned to static.... What an unspeakable gift you are to your neightbor, Jim. Even the second time, when I was not only expecting the divorce, but I wanted it AND was in process of filing, myself... getting filed was a huge blow. There was a "race" to file the papers as the one who files is palced in a position of "tactical advantage" seeing as divorce is techincally a lawsuit. One wins, and loses by the legal nature of the situation. Morally, emotionally, spiritually both parties lose, big time. The only "winning" is that you lose less than the other party. Financially, the attorneys "win" the money they earn by dismantling your lives, the courts win by recieving the overpriced fees they charge. I'd say its harder to be served in that its harder to recieve a blow even though it does hurt your fist when you punch a person in the eye. Unfortunately I'm a veteran of some of the most heinous divorce antics imaginable, two horrible custody fights, evil interferring in-laws, domestic violence, jail, child abuse, legal wranglings dealing with police, daycare providers, schools, children's services, hospitals, extra-curricular lawsuits, prosecutions, rehabilitating injury, etc. SO. Feel free to email me for, venting, advice based on my experiences, etc. also.

Actually we DID do a flyer on some famous althletes. I designed it. We did a PFAL series of Way Magazine ads, each focusing on one of the "promises" from the class green card. A couple of them had famous athletes as th e visual image. LCM pushed that as part of his "Atheletes of the Spirit" personal agenda. There was (as mentioned above) on the flyer: Bob Donaldson, the number 1 rodeo clown in the word for a season or two. Tony Collins & Irving Fryar of the NE Patriots. Last I heard Irving was a minister somewhere, if memory serves. The Patriots now thrive in the NFL as the most "team oriented team" in the league (Yes I'm a big NFL fan ) having won three of the past four Superbowls and the odds on favorite next year also. There was the female tennis player, Paula, I think her name was. Hayes Gahagen, a senator from the New England area. Quite a few semi famous Broadway performers. Several famous people at the Grand Ol' Opry in Nashville were "witnessed to" and were favorable to the idea, don't know how many of them actually took the class though. Three members of Tower Of Power, Skip Mesquite, Dave Garabaldi, Danny Hoefer. They were on tour with Denice Williams in her band, with Earth Wind & Fire for a year. There were believers who were aides for captains of aircraft carriers, high ranking military officers, one of the marines who guarded the doors of the whitehouse was a PFAL grad. There were many, many "famous" PFAL grads and some very influential people who were not famous in the sense of being athletes that never made it to our promo stuff. Thanks to LCM. There was a pretty famous model who was, I think, 13th Corps.

Interesting how deeply embedded waybrain can be.... Back in the day we used to fight SO hard agains the "dangerous cult" rap. BUT. When we've stepped WAY (pun intended) far back from it, in it can be found a callous disregard for a great man's life, by assuming he must be seed because he hold the highest church office in the world ... and he's NOT twi (or "us') . TWI has a callous disregard for life in a lot of "way's" - - a fetus is a parasite, you haven't harmed anyone by aborting it... He's seed, who gives a damn... and the inspiration for this website, the infamous, GREASESPOT my midnite." And more that I won't bring back to mind.... Looking back, its clear that we were, and they still are, "inches" away from some of the major cult tragedies in our country's history. Even if we, individually would NEVER do something like Jonestown or Waco, we were standing on the same slippery slope they slid down. I don't know a whole lot about this Pope. I've seen him doing everything in his power as his body fails him, to maintain his office, for his people's sake. Standing by when he hadn't the strength to speak the sacrements, sitting there when he hadn't the strength to stand. Waving from his window in his wheelchair to let those who slept outside on the ground know he's still "hanging in there" WITH them; acknowledging, via his aides that he feels uplifted by the prayers of the children outside. What did LCM ever do in service to "HIS" followers that matches up to that? An interesting thought... IF, "by their fruit ye shall know them is true (and it is) and you look at the above and compare that to what you know of LCM... Which would a person who knew neither of them say was "seed?" ??? By their fruit? When LCM is on his death bed, how many will fight the impulse to wait outside his window for a glimpse of him... to throw ROCKS??? I, post twi, have taken the position on all religious doctrines, "I rejoice that they even MENTION the name Jesus...." For as much as I personally have no use for the ritual and doctrines of the Catholic Church. I have seen that there is "enough truth" there to get people born again. I've known many a good born again catholic, right Dave?

Oh, I don't know Chatty, I threw that one up, when I figured out how to actually put one up. I'm gonna change it soon. I actually am an artist, and I used to post on TranceChat about 8 years ago as K.I.S.S., you know the old "Keep It Simple Stupid" thing...? There was a lot of craziness flying 'round the threads then that is really not all that prevalent here on GS. I used to really POUND that "keep it simple" concept back then and threw in more than a few "don't be STUPID's." It was really hard to have a civilized discussion in those days. I'm thinking now that my signiture carries a more gentle reference to the fact that I (at least I TRY to ) keep things simple, and reduce complex issues to tangible common denominators, stuff like that. I'm not so hot on the word "stylings" though.... Suggestions?

I also think it it great that so many care enough about one person to get so emotionally involved. It speaks to me about how great our country is, warts & all.

...it just wasn't OUR call. It wasn't society's call to make, it wasn't the judidicary's call, it wasn't Terri's parents' call. It was Michael Schiavo's call. For as much as I may or may not agree with the call he made, as I may or may not have done what he did. I feel I MUST totally agree with his right to MAKE the call. That is, if I want to retain MY total right to make MY calls in MY life. Our society and judiciary has added provisions to keep this from happening, a relatively simple document that we each can sign. We can draft anything in we wish in a document and simply go to the county court house, a library, a post office, or ANYWHERE a Notary Public works, or lives and have them notarize it. I, myself have been a notary, I'd gladly affix my stamp and signiture to something like that. Additionally make a legal copy and mail it to yourself. When it arrives, put it in your file, leave it unopened. Tell a number of your trusted loved ones when it is. Even give them a copy if you'd like. In the event of such a thing as this one, you could speak literaly, and as clearly as you wish to address the issue TODAY in all your present vitality TODAY, from your coma or even from the grave. I have letters, cards, my journals, etc. That I've already declared (and notified her of the same) will become the property of my brilliant first born daughter. Some of the letters are to her and will be a part of my Graduation gift to her as she graduates from High school in a few weeks. ((((((((Shell))))))))) Unfortunately for Terri Schiavo, from what I see of this, her family and the courts could not override her lack of utilizing her right to have deterred all of this. Please see this Schiavo issue is not about "FAULT" its about RIGHTS. I am relieved that when its all said and done, the foundational issue that was protected, in the midst of a tragic loss of health, then life, what remained was the the legal upholding of the institution of marriage. Along withthat, an individual's right to choose. Even IF michael Schiavo made the wrong choice(s). That is what makes our country great, like it or not.

I'm not taking offense at the comment, nor am I promoting polygamy. I'm simply saying that I feel this is, by its very nature, a "perfect catch 22" or a completely "no win" situation for Michael Schiavo. "We" would be calling him a jerk in this situation no matter what he did, just as Tom said. I wouldn't feel any different were the situation reversed and the husband were the incapacitated one. I agree with those who feel she was unnaturally kept alive for all those years, one moment at a time. I believe it is equally possible for her in all those videos to have been saying, "LET ME GO!" I don't think anyone would argue that the "medical meeasures" taken stopped what would have been a natural decline into death as a result of the original injury or condition. It is an assumption that she was fighting for life because we know not what she actually said in HER brain. My experience with my parents and their deaths taught me something about accepting death. Both of my parents fought for DEATH when they were in a situation where their bodies began to fail them to a certain extent when their vitality was gone. They both felt that their inability to be who they once were in life was worse than what awaited them in death. My personal experience, tied with God not being a respecter of persons leads me to believe Terri was similar to my parents. For example. My Father showed up at Sunday dinner at my Mom's house and told us all "Goodbye." He refused to stay and eat. He went around the table and told each of us, not, his usual see ya'll later, he said "Goodbye." My younger sister even called him on his erie "Goodbyes." "Don't you mean see you later?" He softly said, "I meant what I said." He kissed my baby (now 18 years old), held her up above his head, played with her a little bit & went home. My sister went to visit him because she was a little freaked by his visit & found him dead at his apartment less than 24 hours later. My Mom, sat with me privately and made me promise her that I would not allow my sisters and brother, all of whom are "more emotional" than I, to force her back into the chemotherapy treatment that has forced her lung cancer into remission and gave her five more years of life. I begged her not to make me promise. I told her I couldn't keep such a promise. I told her we all still needed her. "No you don't." she said. Then she said. "Besides, this isn't about you all, its about ME. I'm tired, living on this world is not worth all of this." Mom didn't sit with all of us, she sat with EACH of us.. When she weakened to a certain extent, she was hospitalized, knowing fully well her body would deteriorate to a "persistent vegetative state" before finally slipping away to death. I gave her all of the miracle, God can heal you, He did it once before," wrap. She said, "Don't you think I know all that?" As I talked with both parents, who died five years apart, mt Dad first; it was clear they knew something "new" about death that I didn't know. I believe Terri Schiavo knew something about death that none of know and we won't know until we are in HER shoes. I believe whatever conversation may have taken place privately between her and Michael. I don't believe Michael's later apparently immoral relationship released him from his marriage to Terri. I can't say he was "right" to do that, buy then again I don't believe "we" can get to "right" from here. BTW, both of my parents made sure they were ALONE, when they died. My Mom, once she became "vegetated" was put on "death watch" status by the hospital, they called those of us family members who lived out of town & said "come - - now." We made sure we had someone with her round the clock & took organized shifts. WE didn't want her to be alone when she passed. My Aunt, while sitting with Mom, recieved a call in Mom's room (pre cellphone days) and she had to leave earlier than planned. She called my sister, who agreed to come asap. Auntie had to leave before siter arrived. The overlap was less than 20 minites, when sis arrived, Mom was gone. My Mom who was unaware, unresponsive, etc. according to all Dr. predictions and tests, just happened to die during the only time she had been alone for several weeks. I believe the right thing to do was to let Terri go when she "died" years ago. I don't believe we should allow the egocentric, self-serving attitudes of medical "Dr's" to define life & death for us any more than we x-wafers would allow "DR." Wierwille to define what is "healing" for us. (Meet me in my motorcoach, & I'll explain what I'm talking about. ) I'm appalled at this situation partially because it is painfully clear that religious leaders ARE using her plight to backdoor overturning Roe V Wade. I've heard the live radio interviews. They are using the "life is life is life" approach to expand the constituent base beyond "evangelicals" to build enough public outrage to get enough votes to turn the tide in their favor. They do this feeling that they would save SOOO many lives by overturning the abortion law. If you don't see THAT in this, then you're not looking closely enough at it. There simply aren't enough christians ACTIVE enough in politics to get them the votes. They know it they lament about it during times when ther ISN'T an issue large enough to capture the imgination of the general public and form a national debate. They even go so far as to actually chide those who regularly listen to them, be it in seats in their congregations or radio or wherever. They need more votes. They pounced on this one like a roaring lion. I'm not for abortion. I just believe that should we overturn Roe V Wade, we will create more criminals. Laws do more to create "innocent" criminals than they do to shape or deter criminal behavior. I believe the way to reduce abortion is better served by strong education than firmer legislation. Death has been happening horribly on this planet for 6000 years and will continue for who knows how long. It is a fallacy of logic to insist that a person who once could walk, talk, sing, dance, etc. would prefer "living" with a tube down her neck for others to deposit nutrition at regular intervals into while being confined to a bed, at the whim of whatever caretaker; to death. Yeah. I know death is an enemy, et al. But it is in the cards for ALL of us. EVERY death is horrible. I feel for ever "Terri Schiavo," especially the disenfranchised ones we NEVER hear about. Like the ones who died LAST week in obscurity because THEY didn't have the resources to have "one MILLion DOOLars" worth of "appropriate treatment" paid for via a HUSBAND WHO FILED A LAWSUIT, or have it DONATED. This life is a work in progress. We're just not "there yet," there are many many people who were facing the SAME death as Terri Schiavo. They didn't get one second of Jim Dobson's, or President Bush's attention in a national address or press conference. Their case, and subsequent deaths didn't have the media sex appeal to get YOUR attention and MINE. My tears go to THEM, frankly more than Terri - although she gets her fair share. Michael gets a few tears too. Should HE be denied LOVE and fatherhood because SATAN struck his wife? EVERY marriage has problems. What has HE gained today, if the this whole thing was a scam on his part? He's replaced OJ, Robert Blake, and Michael Jackson as America's biggest jerk. If he was Black would "we" call him a PIMP too? It is a Godless, non spiritual societal view that says, use a machine to keep the "human" shell functioning when it cannot do so on its own. "WE will sustain her until God gets around to deciding whether or not she should recieve a "miracle of healing." Do you not see how that thinking can say, "Ok God, if you won't heal her WE will...???" We'll just keep her "alive" long enough until we can figure out just how to do it. No matter the cost. No matter the personal hardship SHE endures, remembering, how she was once able to walk out the door of her room same as her caretakers do. I was recently unable to walk without crutches for about two months. I FOUND myself actually resenting people who would open doors for me, or even people who COULD walk! I had to FIGHT those thoughts to get them OUT of my mind. I really didn't even want to think that way. My own pain, and dissapointment about what I ONCE could do was ever before me. Jealousy struck me even when my sons would say, "You want me to bring it you you Daddy." If Terri WAS aware, she was aware of how much she ONCE could do but NOW couldn't. My guess was that she wassentenced to 15 years of torture. I've also read that it takes closer to 21 or 28 days to die from starvation. It is possible that she willed herself to die sooner? ? ? ? Hate Satan. He's the ONLY bad guy here. Seems to me like everyone else involved was just trying to do what they felt was best in light of a horrible situation.

You know what I find appalling? Why have none of the great christian leaders who are up in arms about this mentioned that both Adam and Jesus Christ said, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Genesis 2:24 - Adam "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh." Matthew 19:5 - Jesus, the second Adam. Both of those men, according to God, were spokesmen for the entire human race. Yet I don't hear Christians shouting, or see them marching with THAT on their signs. I'm not thinking that Terri's condition meets the Biblical conditions for Michael Schiavo to divorce her either. Had he divorced her because of her condition he'd be branded a jerk for that too. Hmmm. Money & sex. The two biggest things that drive TV just happen to be woven into this issue too. Now there's death. Let's take bets as to which network puts out the first miniseries on it & when. As harsh as it may sound, Terri's father gave his dughter to Michael when he married her. Terri LEFT father and mother to be one with Michael. Of course this is a horrible situation. Horrible for Terri, whose death releases her from the bondage of her malfunctioning body. Again. I don't hear the great Christian leaders soapboxing before millions of how her next moment of consciousness is: "...the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first..." She's getting a new body that is unquestionably "alert and responsive." I've heard them say, "appalling," and "shameful" referring to Michael Schiavo. He's after money! people shout. The website "terrisfight.org" the online home of the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation has links in this order; home about us donations... "Please note: Because the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation is solely focused on saving Terri's life, the Foundation is not a 501©(3) tax-exempt public charity. Therefore, private donations to the Foundation are not tax deductible. All donations are used solely for the purpose of protecting Terri. Donating through this website and direct mail to the Foundation's St. Petersburg Beach address listed below are the ONLY ways to guarantee that 100% of your donation will be received by the Foundation. No comment. All of the judges, all the way up to our supreme court, are idiots. They can't read, they don't care about Terri, they care more that her jerk of a husband gets HIS way than her loving mother, HERS. They are more concerned with being "activist" than they are with judicial order and rule of law. They're just plan mean. Murderers, all of 'em. Right? Terri Schiavo's death is no more senseless than the 1500+ Americans who've died in IRAQ. Some of them have had THEIR bodies ripped to pieces by explosive devices or bullets. What about the thousands who lost their lives on the beach at Normandy where there was so much blood the waves were red with it. The tragedy here in my opinion is that this poor woman was forced to live 15 years in this persistent, yet not really, vegetative state. Aware of the tube in her throat. Aware of the bed sores, aware that she can see but can't move with any real semblance of control, can't speak, can't function as a human, her body reduced to little more than an organic machine, that she, once pretty and "vital" was trapped in. We don't know for sure but can guess that yes, she really wanted to live like that. I know I wouldn't and DON'T. This life just doesn't mean enough to me to live it confined to a bed as she. I've never worked in a hospice. I've only visited a couple of nursing homes on a few occasions. I do know that both my Mother and my Father both had something goin on between them and God concerning their deaths that God didn't let the rest of my family in on. They were both "strangely aware" of their impending deaths. God took care of them. I'm sure he took care of Terri too.

In Genesis 1:23 Three times in the Bible it is mentioned how children leave their parents and become joined to each other. If we truly believe in the one flesh relationship, we must believe that what Michael Schiavo did concerning Terri, he did to himself. Not just since the feeding tube was removed, but for thw entirety of their relationship. If they two had become one flesh, Michael Schiavo's rights superceded those of Terri's parents. He, as her husband, had every right to be alone with Terri as she took her last breath. It was God who said, "leave" father and mother. It is Satan who places us in positions where the totality of our choices are between evils. At that point, our righteous duty is to do our best to choose the lesser of the evils. We argue that Terri, as a human has the right to live. Of course she did. We argue that she was, in fact "aware" in what they've called a persistent vegetative state. She's aware, therefore jam a tub down her throat and feed her to keep her alive, don't allow her to starve and die a horrible death. Is not once being alive, mobile and vital, then being confined to live in a shell of a body which has lost virtually all of its capabilities except awareness, condemning her to a horrible life? Personally, I recently lost my ability to walk without the aid of crutches due to a severe knee injury. That relatively small loss of vitality, and the subsequent four months of rehabilitating the knee to where its now at approx. 75% capacity, was and is "a living hell for me." By comparison, Terri Schiavo's state, in my opinion, to ME would be a fate WORSE than death. I feel I would welcome the sureity of sliding into certain death, knowing that what awaited me at the end of that most horrible journey would be my new body and the sound of the trumpet of God calling me to to "rise first" and be with the Lord. Yes. I have children, 5 to be exact. Well add in the two ex-stepdaughters, if you must. I know the intense desire a parent has to outlive their children, the intense desire to keep them ALL from harm of any kind - - I live with it daily. I live that side of the argument. I have THREE daughters, God forbid the day they bring a jerk of a guy before me and ask me to give them to HIM. Were it me, I'd feel I died the moment I became a "vegetable." Having lost both of my parents, I saw something similar in both of them at their time of passing from this life. God did something personal and private with them both that they knew. I can't say what it was, I can only say that they were not alone, He God was there with them in a way that I will never really know until He is with me in the same way. My Mom was in a state similar to Terri Schiavo prior to dying from lung cancer. Long after the doctors said she was "unaware," she was very aware. Unable to communicate, but she was aware. God prepared her to leave and when the time came, she was ready. We who are not in the shoes of the dying have no right to presume anything for them. Regardless of our personal beleif system. God IS there for us in ways that are too high for us. The ONLY person with any right to say anything for Terri was her husband, jerk or not. Now her parents are fighting over her body. They want to determine how she is buried, rather than cremated. How easy would it have been for Michael Schiavo to have just disappeared? Guys do it every day. This is a definite "no win" for him. My personal opinion is that we must believe that God is who HE says he is. This life IS insignificant in comparison to eternity. God took care of Terri, God rest her soul.

I'm thinking it would be a difficult case to win in court. I'm sure TWI's attorneys will trot out the definition legal definition of TWI, which includes "...a follower of The Way FREELY avails himself of fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth." TWI seems to be really prepared to handle complaints like this. They actually DO know what they are really doing to people. I don't see how the plaintiff's attorneys can get past the freewill offering aspect regarding every penny they gave. If they recieved a class paid for it is a completed transaction regardless of how awful said class was. Personally, I feel a great deal of the "victory" here is that a judge thought there was enough merit in the Peelers' case to hold it over for court. Problem is though, TWI does such a great job at focusing on the correct personality types and then brainwashing their current followers that even if the Peelers should prevail, it would make virtually no difference. Current TWIt's would probably give more to help "heal 'God's' ministry."