HCW

You know Belle; You did what you did, now its done. You did what you felt was best for you at the time, that's ALL that really matters, really . It doesn't matter what ANYONE else thinks about what YOU did. Nobody can place a 'right' or 'wrong,' 'good' or 'best' label on what YOU did, past tense. Not even you, honey. We can all look back and throw 'what if's' about. Maybe the 'what if' might have made things easier or even "better" for you. Maybe it wouldn't. When thinking of 'maybe's' concerning the past I recommend we include "Maybe its over." I know there's a process over time; shedding twi from a person is not an easy thing. I, for one, am happy that you share your feelings and experiences. Discussing it helps - - EVERYBODY, Even Oakie. -->

Amen Dave. Imo. The entire CONCEPT of ANY ministry being "God's Ministry," as in WE are and YOU are NOT, is a product of ego. The ego of the leader is evident as he is, at least on THAT point, not following God, he's trying to BE LIKE God. In so doing, he's following Lucifer whose goal was to exalt his own throne, ABOVE God. That becomes a literal truth for you. When you look inside yourself, you DO see that you are following god. Problem is, its the WRONG god, you start following the god of this world. There truly IS nothing new under the sun. The reality is that the VAST majority (I would guess over 95%) of the guys running ministries are doing so because they want to "ascend above the heights of the clouds" and "be like the most High." Ego is a CONSTANT and NEVER-ENDING temptation for church leadership. History, especially Bible history. These days I'm seing that the work of the ministry is simple.... "If you can't love your brother that you do see you CAN'T (that is CAN'T, not DON'T, or won't - - it says you can not, as in do NOT have the ABILITY to) love God, whom you cannot see. To be Godly, you gotta go the love route, tender first; 'tough' as a later, if not last resort. You know CM. I agree with you about trying other things before leaving or splitting up a relationship, especially a marriage and most certainly a marriage with children. Most people seem to think that "tough love" means "getting tough" with somebody. Not necessarily so. Its more about dealing with things that may be tough to deal with. Its tough for the lover and/OR the loved one. It, the situation is usually tough to deal with for all involved. However, it involves doing what is necessary, as you said in an individual situation, which MAY involve "toughness" after other, 'softer' measures have failed and the negative situation persists. You, obviously had enough actual love for your spouse that your love for her was "loud enough" inyour mind and heart that you 'heard her." When she "poured on the tenderness," THAT opened you up to what she said. "A soft answer" DOES "turn away wrath." "Grievious words" DO "stir up anger." LCM was always speaking about "operating principle." Yet he neglected to use one THAT one. I didn't know him during the twi-2 days, but I knew him "when;" he was never the guy to go to to get tenderness from. Thanks for posting your points CM, it actually never crossed my mind that a person wouldn't try lots of other stuff, as in EVERYTHING before they left a spouse. Personally, after stinding up in front of a group of people and making promises like marriage vows, I couldn't look at myself in a mirror or sleep at night had I not tried everything in my power to save my marriage before the divorce. Part of the reason I'm OK with the divorce is that I CAN honestly say I did my all to keep my vows. The marriage failed, but I know I didn't fail the marriage. I think that's important to anyone still 'in' who may want to leave but spouse wants to stay. You MUST first determine a "balance point then find it and live it. Second. You MUST determine "enough is enough" points and positions. Those positions should be your best attempt to know and understand the difference between things you may (self AND your children) not LIKE and things that are actually damaging to yourself and, especially, the children. Thing you don't like aren't always damaging to you and things that damage you are not always something you don't LIKE. Its about honesty, maybe a level of honesty a person has to take a 'tough' look at themselves and "just do it." Honestly. "How am I providing for my family by loving TWi 'as Christ loved the church' and 'gave himself for it' IF I can't even DISCUSS my wife's feelings about the subject?" "Just HOW wrong IS it to stay home from fellowship JUST to PLAY with my children?" "Does GOD ALMIGHTY, HIMSELF really need ME, His son, to string chairs, TONITE more than MY son needs ME to help with his math? - - Or even to watch "Fear Factor" on TV with him?" It kinda ironic from my POV, I'm posting on a thread called "You CAN'T Leave" when I was kicked OUT of Twi. In my experience, I HAD to leave. This is not to in any way diminish anyone else's situation. I wasn't given a specific reason, maybe because that had too many to number. I DO know that the last year I was there on staff I refused to go to Corps Night because I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I honestly could not get with the concept of leaving my wife & kids at home to go and listen to tapes of teachings that I had already heard live. When the issue came up about staff Corps grads setting an example for in residence WC by goin gto corps night I said, "How about we set an example of how a Corps Grad puts his family first? How about we set an example of how we actually STUDY the notes we took while in residence. How about the example that we set by actually teaching our non Corps wives and children who weren't BORN when we were in residence, the stuff we've committed our lives to 'working' and teaching? How about I start with MY family. What kind of example could my WHOLE FAMILY be to the in residence corps? Should I just take MORE notes on the same teaching? When would I study the NEW notes. If Corps night isn't a good time for me to set aside to study at home with my family, what IS a good time. Lots of folks agreed with me. Maybe that's why they got rid of me & the rest of us? I dunno. They weren't big enough to even tell me. Personally, I think everyone SHOULD leave.

A big part of me understands how difficult it may be to 'leave' and get out of TWI; really, I do. I also understand the strong desire a spouse may have to save a marriage. However. I'm thinking that in the case where one spouse has 'awakened' and realizes that getting out is the desired thing to do, I don't see how 'staying in' really contributes to actually saving the marriage, especially if there are children involved in the marriage, especially young ones. By all means, should a spouse in a marriage with children decide to leave, TAKE YOUR CHILDREN WITH YOU. Whereas I do believe in the concept of 'tough love' I haven't seen anything anyone has spoken of that LCM & co. has said or done as falling anywhere close to tough love. Tough, yes, LOVE... absolutely not. Usually, when it comes to "loving tough" the 'tough lover' has some standing, or natural place in the life of the recipient that gives them the right to 'get tough' with someone they ALREADY love. I'm sure its quite clear to 'all' that LCM don't love NOBODY, especially not even himself. We would all do well to consider 100% of LCM's lunchtime (or any other time) rantings as 100% intentional abusiveness from a madman. If he's not certifiably insane... he's certianly MAD; as in angry. My point is, simply, in the style of a notable politician in a recent national debate. "I've known tough love in my life, sir; and THAT is NO tough love!"

Hey Long Gone; I've read your previous posts since my last two and have only had time to skim the rest of other people's posts this morning as I have an early appointment. I wanted to say this before I go though. Thank you for continuing to discuss this topic in a basically calm and rational way. Although we are on the 'opposite sides' of the fence on this one, I appreciate 'arguing' with you more than 985 of Christians I've ever seen, met or even heard of. That speaks highly of you as a human being. My actual position on the Bible, Christianity, et.al. has EVOLVED to where it is now. I no longer see people so categically, I see, and attempt to deal with people as individuals. AN indivudual, by his thought, beliefs, and actions may place himself into a variety of categories. These, like an amoeba can and do change dynamically. For example: utilizing some words you used. A "Christian" can show himself an "idiot" as he speaks "bogus" stuff he thinks the "Bible" says about "science." I think we can interject, all of the terms we've used here and apply them to many of the people on both sides of the debate at large. Since I have torn down my personal veils of separation in my own thinking, I just - don't - care, really, about anything that separates us as human beings. That, new, evolved thinking, for me has, I believe, helped me to see God more clearly and understand the Bible AND what I know of science better. Your last post makes it clear to me, as your previouse ones, at worst, have indicated, thay you and I probably agree on this more that we disagree. Example: That paragraph did an excellent job of saying what I feel about the AiG site., Basically, it is an interesting site with a good deal of information I think would be useful to anyone who wanted to read up on this stuff. For the record. No I don't think of your last post as any typ of contrition. Were we actually having a spoken conversation we could have said what has been written here over days in a relatively few minutes. I'm glad you didn't take my comments personally, I haven't, nor will I yours. Thank you. I've enjoyed the conversation too, now I gotta run. to 'plagurize' jerry's sign off. - peace

Let's not forget you basic, garden variety death while we're at it Lindy. Hey thanks man.. I knew that God dude just couldn't be trusted. Never could put my finger on why, though.

Speaking of rediculous.... (1) Never tried to discredit God... Then what is this? God used terms 'evening and morning' to represent the literal truth of "the first day," which IS literally ONE day. You are using semantics to discredit God and insinuate He is lying in the sense that it could not have possibly taken only one (24 hour) day. "Long Gone" is a term that YOU use to represent the literal YOU. Its not a figure of speech, emphasizing something ABOUT you. (2) No... You just posted links to websites of OTHER people who discredit people who love God. Not to mention this: I guess that post GIVES me credit? (3) !!! I guess a direct statement that you don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God ISN'T arguing against the belief that it is? My children argue a lot. One says, "I believe that candy is mine!" The other says, "I don't believe that!" They go on: "Yes it IS; ... No its NOT; ... is TOO; ... is NOT!" Oh I get it. You would ONLY be arguing if someone directly said to you... and you refuted directly. Is that it? This one is really good. Even though you write that you don't believe the Bible is inspired by God, THAT is not even CLOSE to CLAIMing that its not. How DO you claim the Bible is not inspired by God then? (4) Oh. The most you have done is to argue agains the CLAIMS. The claims are not part of Christianity? You just say the claims are false, not that the PEOPLE are lying, they just claim false things. (4a) "ill supported" surely gives them credit too. (4b) Oh. You're NOT discrediting anyone by telling US, their claims are illogocal, you're just informing us of the facts, right? (4c) Ok so you just express scorn at SOME claims. (5) Divine Creation in 7 ordinary days is NOT a claim of Christianity? (6) Just WHAT are you referring to? Evidently you're limiting your scorn to the concept of the young earth and creation in 7 days? and only wish to rebuke those who believe that and refute their claims. Bandying about insults along the way. Right? This thread passed rediculous a few pages back.

I just read some of the stuff from your latest, "I hate AiG" link Long Gone. One word sums it up. Rediculous.

Because he was the BOSS. From my armchair, I see Rosalie as wanting the top spot from the moment she decided to come to HQ. I'm thinking that lawsuit gave RR the opening to run her agenda and grab to top spot. I'm willing to bet LCM's leaving was as much a coup for RR as anything else. I mean, who, in the top leadership positions in TWI "worked their way up LESS than she? One of the first things I ever heard of her was seeing her standing next to VP & him saying how "wonderful" she was. She who: was never a WOW, not a Corps Grad, did she even ever run a twig? She waltzed into HQ, They gave her a position running several departments. They "invented" 'The University of Life' for her to run, allowed her unfettered discretion to edit VPW's Way Corps teachings. From her 'day one' at HQ she seemed to have as much power as ANYONE else; even VPW. VP was usually the last stop for anything he was involved in, but when it came to anything RR was involved in that had to do w/VP SHE was 'da man.' Most people were assigned housing when they came to HQ, or they found an apartment, or if they had it like that they bought a house. When RR came, Way Builders BUILT her a house. Totally custom. Swimming pool, privacy fence and all along a road in NK where there is a row of very nice homes. Hmm... Now VP's dead, LCM's gone, Rosalie's Pres. and best friends with Craig's wife, who doesn't live with HIM. Rosalie's in depth perception was "If I play my cards right, I can run this joint. Then I can get PAID way beyond what I could EVER command in a "real world" job. Twi used to criticise senators, congressmen, and US presidents saying, "Why would a guy spend millions of dollars to get a job that only pays a quarter mil per year for only four years? There must be something more they want - - POWER." If Rosalie had it like that to just build a house wherever she wanted why come to New Knoxville? She was actually never even qualified, Biblically, for ministry leadership, "one who runs his home well, having his children subject to him with all gravity." Really? Rosalie? Her children subject to her?

My point exactly ChasU. Even if LCM did have the ability (which was just him being delusional) he didn't have the RESUME. If you don't have an MBA you have a track record like a 'Donald Trump' and a reputation (um, a GREAT one) that preceedes you by a blue mile. I'd be willing to bet he actually applied for some high level positions. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall watching him get the "Thank you for your interest in the position. We have chosen someone whose qualifications we feel a match for the opening. " letter. Sorry for the derail!

You know? There always seemed to be folks lurking about who gave a distinct impression that they would just as soon eat you and take your staff position as look at you. It got worse as the years went by and even worse after POP. I remember it cause it actually creeped me WAAAY out a few times. "People I didn't even really know would say things like, "SO. You gonna stay on staff ANOTHER year?" (insert twilight zone music here) There were others, Like Rosalie Rivenbark that you just knew were hangin around more to get that big (in her case President) spot than anything else. It wasn't so bad until TWI got 'big' and corporate. By the time we got around to the double digit Corps numbers all of the 'major' leadership field positions and the staff spots were filled. A few years after I got canned & ran into some innies, it was not all surprising who stayed. It seemed like most of them were people who either wanted a position or wanted a "bigger one" than they had. Don W., after taking over as Vice Pres. wanted to maintain some sense of continuity of TWI staff, especially the more widely influential positions because it took about a third of the year for new people to come up to speed. People stopped moving from spot to spot. Those who felt they were a shoe-in to be the next "whatever" got pretty steamed. Most of us in the 11th had already been 'successful' TC's on the field, then LCM told us we were going through all that training to do what we were already doing? Sheesh! They actually told us 11th WC that NONE of us would be getting a position above an area coordinator when we graduated; and only a few of those would be 'open.' That was when they tried to push it on people that the 'highest' leadership position in the ministry was a TC anyways. People started getting really hacked off because being a Corps grad became percieved as the fast track to the 'big-time' in TWI. Some folks won't leave now because they know they could never get the same 'title' in another similarly sized company as TWi. As if Rosalie could qualify as as C.E.O. in a $20 mil/yr organization. Harve Platig, an actual corporate vice president? Was LCM hired as CEO of Bally's?

I'm not mad at you. No it isn't. It is reading what is written and thinking. It says: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." It also says: "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men , another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds ... So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power..." "It (the one kind of flesh of men, that is not the same flesh of animals, etc., the body God gave) is sown a natural body." It is raised a spiritual body. God places his spirit inside our dead natural bodies, via the works of the second Adam, a life-giving spirit. That makes us alive to him, eternally. This chapter is telling us how in the ressurrection our dead, natural bodies will be replaced by a new, spiritual ones, because our corrupt, flesh and blood bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God. "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." God is telling us, in this passage, that the whole Christianity thing is about life and death, corruption and a transefer to immortality. Christ paid the price for all death (for humans certainly, I'm not sure about animals). "...if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain." I have no argument with people being connected to God being stubborn jack*sses. That classification can be hung on every one of us ALL at some point. There is nothing about being connected with God that changes people from being stubborn. My point is that, post the ressurrected Christ, a person who is not born again will not be ABLE to recieve spiritual things from God. This does not stop God from commmunicating with them in other ways. I believe that Romans 5:8-19 speaks to the "dead to God/ then alive to God through Christ condition too. Some people just don't want to acknowledge the spiritual thing. That is what separates Christ from every other great prophetor otherwise great man that ever lived, he redeemed US and made us alive to God again. Without that spirit were were not much different (although still in a category by ourselves) than "beasts" which differ from fish, which differ from birds, etc. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead" seems to indicate that 'natural man' can clearly see and understand invisible things of God. There must be a distinction in a man seeing invisible things of God and recieving spiritual things from Him. A clear indicator, IMO, comes when a person thinks that 'spiritual things of God' are foolishness. This, to me, also debunks TWi's BS teaching that "the ONLY way one can tell another person is born again is by hearing them speak in tongues." It seems to me like a POSSIBLY clear indicator of someone not being born again is when they exhibit an inABILITY to recieve spiritual concepts. When they retort with "that's just foolishness." You have to qualify that though, because a lot of what Christians (in general) believe about God IS just plain foolishness. This is why, in general, I've come to completely back of even thinking about whether God communicates with OTHER people. Its hard enough figuring out His communications to ME, Bible or otherwise. Good discussion though.

Funny you should say that Mr. Hamma. When the IRS was coming after TWI to revoke the tax exempt status back in th e late 1980's I stood up at a staff meeting durng the part of the meeting where they took questions/comments from the staff and said, "Why should we really care about this? If I believe God's promise to meet my individual needs, won't he meet the ministry's needs too? They can have the tax exempt status as far as I'm concerned." It wasn't too long after that thay they fired me.

I'm in favor of anyone who has a case that would stand up enough to make it into the courtroon to take it there. My previous comments point to that in the sense that if there is anything TWi is doing to people that is legally actionable, people should take legal action against them. For example, were I "in" now and I wanted to get "out," my knowledge of what they've done to others would be sufficient for me to call the police, the first moment I saw a TC show up at my door after the first time I didn't show up for twig. I'm thinking it is a well known fact amongst innies, the things they have done or might do to keep you 'in.' They have NO right to even say ANYTHING to ANYONE in ANY way, shape or form if a person wants to leave. If a person doesn't want to play Twiglet any more that only thing they have the right to say is, "Goodbye, our door is always open to you." IF, they actually want you to remain a part of their fellowship, that is.

Cool ChasUFarley. I feel you A little postscript to my last post. When people sign on in an athletic context they sign up to be hamered, bended, molded, etc. Nobody signed on to be treated like property when they went to a fellowship. The shock of seeing how it really is, is devastating to say the least.

WordWolf said: Like they do in the olympics we can throw out the low score and I'll plead "all of the above." With the following qualifications. 1. I knew Naomi Poling. I watched her grow up from a kid, to a dependable teen, college graduate and remember the thrill I felt when she told me of her job in Washington D.C. If you remember from my LEAD story, Her father Art was one of the first to care for me when I didn't even know how injured I was. The Polings were a great family, Naomi was on her way to becoming one of the truly great women in our country. A future Condoleeza Rice was not an exaggeration. If you knew Naomi, she was a PROMISE of that. We were crushed, I wept personally when I heard on the evening news of the plane crash. They scrolled the names of the people in the crash and I saw her's it stopped mt in my tracks. Had I been in the room when Craig spoke of her as you say he did. I would have melted HIS face. Art Poling left TWI because resigned. He was part of the original "President's Cabinet" and would not continue along the path LCM was taking the ministry. He told Craig to HIS face that he would no longer work for HIM, because he, LCM was NOT working for GOD. Art is a BIG guy, a gentle bear with a babyface and a gentile, soft voice. He could be very imposing because he'd gently shoot very straight in such a way you knew when he was "all business." Art was very well respected in the ministry and when he left, others who respected him left too. Craig didn't like that. Vindictive coward that he IS, he lashed out at Art at the incident of his beloved daughter's death. Satan killed Naomi and those on the plane as they were on a mission that was part of the process of making the WORLD a BETTER place. Naomi was so talented. She walked through life and school like a hot knife through butter. She had just "walked right in" to heights Craig knew he'd neve reach in a million years. LCM was jealous... PERIOD. What's Timmy Martindale doing these days? 2. I DID misinterpret what I did see in some very specifc way in some very specific areas. ChasUFarley says she's built like a brickHOUSE! Cool.... I came to HQ three years out of High School. I had been a wrestler since sixth grade (a varsity starter, senior year) and a varsity football, Quad A level, player (starter) in Western, PA. Plus I was a green belt in Tae Quon Do with black belt level skills (I hadn't tested for the higher belts). If you've seen the movie Friday Night Lights, that is the type of football program I played, and excelled in. I had graduated HS with highest honors and was a Dean's List student in Art School. In the athletic program I grew up in since being a little kid, having your face melted meant the coach CARED about you. Our coaches were beasts on the field that had you given me a gun I'd have shot them to get them to "STOP the madness!" Off the field, in the locker room, classroom or wherever, whenever we needed them they were mentors; father figures whom we knew, to a man they would do ANYTHING they could for us all, to a man. From the last person off the bench on a "100 pt victory" to the biggest All State star. We ALL knew these men cared for us. What we view as torturous treatment, they proved to us was more like they were construction workers pounding us with hammers to build us into champions. The proof came when we would roll over all but the finest teams and flatten them like in cartoons. We knew we were champions, only sometimes the other team would score more points than we, but not often. So. When I came to HQ. I was afraid of no thing and no body. LCM put on his pants the same way I did, one leg at a time. Same w/ VP. When I first saw someone get their face melted, I thought I was seeing the same thing I saw from my coaches. I saw things I didn't necessarily agree with. That stuff was filtered through my own values and what I THOUGHT I was seeing. I stayed there, nine more years and worked hard to build it. There were all kinds of BAD things going on all around, mixed with other stuff individuals who THOUGHT they were building and doing a good thing. VP. LCM and others simply hid the worst of what they did for a time. Then LCM finally became bold enough that he really doesn't give a damn. Actually, scratch that. Looking back, it's more likely that Rosalie puppeted LCM through all of his "ranting & raving years" knowing full well that he'd hang himself one day. How coincidental is it the SHE was right there to pick up the presidency. How did Rosalie actually get to be president anyway?

Ditto ChasU, Thanks to WW for the links. I'll read them, all of them. Hey gang, apologies are in order. From me that is. I didn't mean to take the villian role on this topic, Ok? Nor was I doin' the "devil's advocate" (no pun intended) thing either, just to spur some conversation forward. You have my sincere apology for any negative impression my words may have given you. It sincerely was not my intent. :o--> This thread has actually grabbed me by the throat in a way. This could be the most important topic in discussion at the cafe. Peoples lives are really involved. Injury. Injury is the operative word here as to why people otherwise considered to be rational, intelligent, thoughtful and considerate human beings would, apparently, choose to voluntarily involve themselves inside such an abusive environment. They are not STUPID, they are INJURED. Emotional injuries are WORSE than physical ones. One "face-melting," especially in a religious environment where, by definition, people let down their guard and open up to receive from God, Himself. Can do substantial, if not life altering damage to a person's psyche. Don't hate on any because they're an "innie" (he said, chanelling Johnnie Cochran).

Gee whiz Chas, I stopped reading the thread when I hit that remark. I asked because I wondered what went on. I'm aware of tactic they used on people that I saw when I was there. What I saw didn't reach the level that I've heard you guys speak of. I never said I thought anyone was making anything up. I don't need proof. Your word is good enough for me; if you tell me, "This is what happened," I'll BELIEVE you ... PERIOD. I'd never say anything remotely close to not believeing you or supporting - - THEM. I'm just thinking that if there is something they've done that can be prosecuted, by all means, PROSECUTE them. ANY of them, ALL of them. I'm still me, Shell. I just don't know what happened to folks after I left TWI in August, 1988. I walked away, never looked back. I lived in New Knoxville for the next 10 years and knew less about what was going on three miles down the road than people 3,000 miles away knew. One of the things TWI seems best at is concealing their dirty laundry. I almost puked all over my keyboard (literally, I was actually sickened) when I saw one of my favorite football heroes, Terry Bradshaw, speaking "good" things about TWI. It scared me when I saw "The singing ladies of the way" videos on their website about a month ago. I could almost hear "The Twighlight Zone." music playing in the background of my mind. I'm not ridiculing anyone for staying in. I've spoken about the insideous mind control they place people under. I've even gone so far as to say that I, who felt I WASN'T under their control, was controlled by them more than I thought. I may not have done some of the insane things others WC have done to people but I feel I was decieved into thinking TWI, its ministry itself, was actually worth fighting for. I've actually seen physical differences in my body since leaving TWI. I was deteriorating simply because of residual stress of being involved. So. Please. Don't hate me cause I ask what did they do to you. I really do care. Now I'm gonna read further.

I've MET famous people before. Does that qualify me as being near-ly famous? :)-->

Lets not let the brilliance of the other remark to overshadow this one. Dave you must have taken your "RightON" pill that day. This point is why I'm apt to say that once one gets OUT he should specifically and purposefully drop EVERYTHING that had anything to do with TWI from your life. Flush it all away. Take the books from your shelves, posters from your walls, etc. In so doing one would not be a dog returning to his vomit. One would be a person taking a shower after wallowing in the mud. After flushing all of the stuff away. Move ahead with life as YOU see fit. Think about YOU and what YOU like. Its NOT selfish. "If any man rule not his own house well, how can he, the kingdom of God?" Its imperative to take care of self BEFORE one can take care of others. It only becomes selfish when we "see a brother that has need and we have the ability to help but we shut up our bowels of compassion toward him." Not to ramble on about this.... But. IMO IF, I repeat IF, we, now that we are 'out' "we manage to judge the entirety of our live's (afterwards) by what we learned while we were *in*." ... are we REALLY out??? NO. We only THINK we are out, because being IN a cult is not a location, it has nothing to do with what fellowship you do or don't attend, not about a job one works; its a state of mind.

I was talking with my business partner yesterday. He is a very intelligent, spiritual, but not religious kinda guy who, as part of our ad agency work, goes to church every sunday - - to WORK, videotaping the service for the church, our client. He gives me an interesting perspective on the poeple who teach and what he sees them doing. His persepctive is VERY interesting AND revealing as to what's actually going on because he's not there LOOKING TO RECEIVE anything from the message. He's there to work. He was telling me how a guest speaker last Sunday, he felt, was the "real deal." He pointed out a contrast between the guest speaker and others he's heard; not intentionally seeking to breach the prophecy subject. Here's what he said, "Usually, its like the speaker is 'fishing.' They just throw out some things that are certain to hit somebody in the croud. The better they know the croud the easier it is to hook people with the things that they say. When they say something that you can relate to, they got you; you're hooked. I see it happening all the time. I watch them scanning the croud looking to see what hits somebody then they pounce on that." I see personal prophecy as this type of thing on steroids. I know the idea of God almighty having a PERSONAL, specific message for ME today appeals to me. How could it NOT appeal to ANYone who feels they love God and wants a personal relationship with Him, whom they cannot see? Anyone who loves or respects anyone they feel is in any way superior to themselves wishes a personal, specific message from them. (Can I have your autograph?) When I visit my kid's school, even kids I don't know, if I call them aside, they are "all ears" to hear what I have to say, just because an ADULT took some, specific, personal time for them. Even teenagers react positively, if you approach them right. Imagine how much easier it is when you walk into a room where "everyone" there is already looking to recieve a message! When 'respected leader type' says, "Hey let's hear from God..." I agree with JD. My skin crawled when the term "council" came up on this thread. In a totally non-religious context. Whenever I have to have a design approved by a council or any type of committee, the design will "never" get finished and the end project is NEVER "as good." Even in the kitchen, "Too many cooks spoil the soup." Spiritually speaking I think Personal Prophecy is a personal, specific mockery of God.

Belle; I'm ignorant of the intense manipulation and perversion that you speak of. I've never experienced it. That is not said to rebut anything you say. I just don't know what TWI could do to someone who just didn't come to twig anymore, and changed their phone number. I really don't see Oldie's comments as cold, I see them more 'real' than anything else. What can they actually DO to someone? Do they beat people? I know LCM used to yell abusive things & stuff like that. Please take into account that I'm ignorant of what they do, OK? However, you speak of TWI having hold on people in terms that are used normally of wives who are trapped in abusive marriages/relationships. Do they actually stalk you? Threaten actual harm, physical or otherwise? Again, I'm not trying to ridicule, just understand. From an outside perspective, when I hear intense in terms of manipulation and perversion I also hear 'criminal.' For example: I know a guy who has an X-wife who is the poster child for the "X from HELL" club (female division). When they were divorcing there was enough intense manipulation and perversion to make pretty much anyone's (no matter what you've seen or experienced) jaw drop through the floor. During that, after they split and she'd call with the height of intensity, 'f-bombs" and heinous insults, all the threats, etc. you could imagine dropping all over the place.... the guy hung up the phone. He'd joke around afterwards about how today's electronic phones lack the impact hanging up that the old cradle button models had. (You used to be able to slam the phone just right and put a 'pop!' in the other party's ear.) Now a little "bleep" or "boop!" is all you can get. Cell phones just go silent and they may not even know you actually hung up. You used to be able to give them a non-verbal "shutUP." I'm rambling... At any rate. When the X-fromHell actually DID something. Like she hit him with a car, (intense and perverse) he dialed 911. She's now looking at a year in jail and/or 2yrs supervised probation, court ordered counseling, fines, court costs, retribution for thousands of dollars in medical bills & physical therapy, AND supervised visitation of the children they share. The children actually WITNESSED their mother intentionally hitting their father with a 2000lb car. That, from an outside POV is intense manipulation and perversion that goes on. And. In the category of intense, and perversion, based on what's available. The story above is not-all that-intense, or perverse. You speak of doctrines, teachings, and threats that are still in force. Can you enlighten those of us who may not have experienced what you speak of? Its difficult for folks to empathsize when we have little idea of what you're talking about. Please, notice from the story above that the guy enlisted outside help from the proper authorities. I would think such help could actually bring twi down???

I'm not speaking out in support of TWi's teachings. However there is scriptural support for man of only body & soul lacking the ability to communicate with God. That is the New International Reader's Version. King James says: The Bible clearly says that the man of body & soul cannot recieve things from God without having the spirit of God in him. ie. "Christ in you, the hope of Glory." (Colossians 1:26,27) is a necessary element to hear from God as things of the spirit are known via the spirit. Without it we were born as living souls in a natural body, dead, "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:10 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (v:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Ephesians 2:5 However, there is nothing stopping God from communicating with man in other ways. There are many records of angels speaking to people, even taking human form. There is record in Genesis of angels, (sons of God) even mating with human women. If angels can do all of this I have no problem with God actually speaking, as in audibly, to Jesus or ANYone else, because He has NO respect of persons. An interesting supplement to this can be found in I Corinthians 15: I Corinthians 15, in the context of the ressurrection, covers the concept of a distinct separation between flesh & spirit. It gets into distinctions between flesh & spirit, and even different kinds of flesh. Mostly it goes into great detail in establishing that Christ came, specifically to return to man the life that Adam had lost for all mankind. It establishes how Adam who was of the earth became a living soul and in contrast to that Christ who was from heaven became a lifegiving spirit. We must exchange our corrupted bodies (corrupted by death) for new uncorrupted ones that will live forever, just like Christ's. It makes it crystal clear that all faith in Christianity is based on the ressurrection from the dead, specifically Christ's as the firstfruit for all of us who follow him. It is Biblical that natural man cannot recieve spiritual communication from God but that does not mean that God cannot communicate to man otherwise. Jesus was a great student of the scriptures, he was constantly quoting them. He, as a 12 year old knew enough to amaze religious teachers for at least three days. (Luke 2:46) He knew them well that he had memorized EVERYTHING in the scriptures concerning himself. (Luke 24:27) With that kind of knowledge of the God breathed scriptures, how much would you need God to tell you?

Very good points JB. Here's a scientific question.... Has there ever been a study that would determine how much water there would be on the earth if EVERY cloud in the entire sky emptied its entire water content onto the earth? We all know it as scientific fact that clouds are floating water particles, right? We all know the basic process that naturally causes rain, right? How much water is actually floating up there?" Also. Rainbows happen today any time the correct pyhsical conditions exist. The conditions are, basically, the angle of the sun in the sky at two specific times of day and the moisture content of the air. Given the correct proportion of the two you get a rainbow, any time, every time. 'Combining' those (scientifically discovered) physical characteristics which lead to rainbows mixed with the statements from Genesis... Chapter 9, verses 12 - 17: "And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud , and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant , which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth." Hmmm "...when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:" seems to support the science that whenever the conditions exist, "the (rain)bow shall be seen in the cloud." And "the waters shall no more become a flood" indicates existing water(s) BECAME the flood, because He said, "not again ." I think it could be reasonable to think the clouds already there emptied all, or at least enough, of their content to flood the entire earth... because "the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." Finished most likely included clouds which were simply referred to later in chapter 9, not mentioned as being a new thing that was made as a result of the flood. And, given the details listed: - Noah's age, Gen 7:6 - the amount of days it rained, 7:12 - the dates given, 7:11 - the number of days the flood lasted, 7:24 - that date, 8:4 - the number of days it took for the waters to receed, 8:5 - and when Noah opened the window 8:6. - the dates when the ground dried, 8:13, 14... combined with the science of how rainbows work... Had we not lost the location of the mountain where the ark landed we could determine approximately the day the day and approximate time of day God made the covenant with Noah. Because rainbows only happen at certain times of the day. The key to understanding things about life is by combining things we see and know from science WITH what we know from God's word. Not from separating the two and fighting about it. Satan doth surely know that if we combined science WITH the Bible we could only conclude there is in fact One true, living and Loving God.

Another thing I see.... I see my children are willing to accept my answers to their questions as being beyond (what they CAN'T see) them because they've seen enough love from me (that they CAN see) that they trust me. My children actually WANT to trust me. They feel happy and secure in life because they feel they KNOW they can trust me. I see the root of all of these types of arguments as being that people just haven't seen enough of God's love for them, specifically, and mankind in general, to trust Him and what He says. Personally, I use what I call the timeline theory. It hit me over the course of many years of my life according to different experiences. One in particluar was when I was selling one of my babies. This particular baby was a Datsun 280Z. I had cherished this car and took great care of it after having desired one since high school. When I got it. I loved it. It was in GREAT condition. I reluctantly decided to sell it as my family grew and the kids became too big to stuff in the back deck. Driver & cars seat for the human baby left no room for mom. All things considered, the Z, this manicured classic of a vehicle, it had to go. This guy came to look at it. I felt he would surely recognize the clasical autmotive beauty we were both in the presence of, I thought surely he'd look it oevr and happily throw me a check for my more than fiar asking price. Instead he said, in reference to the price. "What's wrong with it?" My point is he had no actual knowledge of the hours & hours of painstaking care I'd shown the vehicle earlier ON THE TIMELINE than that day. He didn't know that I'd earlier had the car determined to be "flawless." AND I'd determined that I priced it "to sell quickly." He just wasn't there, but his lack of presence or lack of knowlege of what I knew I'd done did not change anything I did or didn't do. I realized at later thinking all of these 'bad things' about the buyer that I was no more present earlier on the timeline of his life than he on mine. If I want others to accept earlier "truths" of facts from my timeline, I must be willing to accept theirs. Now when I read the Bible. I accept it first. I believe it first. When I actually determined to believe IT rather than what somebody told me IT said, I began to see IT more clearly. IT began to make more sense to me. To this day I have not found IT to be unfaithful. People yes, but IT, God's Word no. AS they say, one particular verse completely changed my views on it. I was once very closely aligned with the views presented here on this thread. The verse? The verse, get to the verse you say? OK. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead" Romans 1:20 When I first read that 34 years ago, it glossed over my mind. While in TWI, it was mostly ignored, or spoken of in the "wrong" context. One day I actually read it without reading INTO it. Invisible things... ...from the creation of the world... ...understood... ... CLEARLY seen ???? ..by that which is made... ???? HOW???? I started out by LOOKING at stuff. Really looking a things that are made. Not looking via and through 'wayhead.' I mean looking to see what I see in, like - - everything. I was then that I started seeing things, seeing ne things in things that I already had seen for years. I started learning about the "invisible things of God." Like what I said above. When I seel how much more willing my children are to listen to me, and determine, by asking them, why... and observing relationships, and comparing and contrasting, and experimenting, and looking at results. I see stuff. Most people on this planet are basically mad at God. Why? Because people DIE. People hurt. People get sick. Heinous things happen to people whom God supposedly LOVES so God - - damn - - much. If He loves us SO much how come he Kills so many of us? The Christians say, "NO! God doesn't kill people the devil kills people!" What? Shifting the blame. God, all powerful, all knowing God, the LOVING creator of the universe, in whom there is LIGHT and is no darkness at all; HE only ALLOWS the DEVIL to kill us people types. Why doesn't God STOP the madness? If He loves us so much He could CERTAINLY save us from all the pain & suffereing, right. He doesn't, we suffer, we dertermine he CAN'T love us, Therefore we He CAN'T be trusted. So we figure it out for ourselves. At least we try to. Lucifer has created the perfect Catch 22. Since God shows himself clearly in things people can see. I'll clearly let them see so much bad stuff that it tears their attention away from him, I recently had my left knee torn up by an impact from a car. In my months of rehab as I suffereder through the pain, frustration & loss. I LOOKED at the situation. I learned from it (when I didn't have the strength) that I was depending more on my personal muscular ability to move my body and perform martial arts techniques than I was on the technique. The technique was knowledge I didn't already have, the strength, I already owned. Now, armed with that catharsis, I'm actually a better martial artist now after the injury, than I was before. There's a scripture to that effect, something about ALL things working together for good to them that love God... I could go on and on and on and on and on with how, "things just seem to work out" for me in my life. My faith in God is in NO way BLIND. The entire concept of BLIND faith is a lie from hell. I don't care WHO you've ever heard it from nor where you've ever seen it. Its _ a _ LIE. This whole thread is on the topic of life & death. Someone makes a simple statement because THEY were LOOKING at the subject: A simple link is put up to a website that has literally thousands of links to information. From there the basic bent of the conversation is "You can't beleve them, they believe GOD!" They're FUNDAMENTALIST. They'll ask you to believe in something you can't see! In other words, "Don't even look there for answers you seek, look to me. Don't you read the stuff on their site, after all I HAVEN'T, why should you?" People admittedly have only skimmed AiG and dismissed it because they don't WANT to believe in God - - at least not completely. They want to hold on to enough of God that maybe... just maybe IF he really is there.... Well I believe he's there I just don't believe I can believe everything he says. Darwin was mad at God about the death of someone he cared about. That is the root of his research. Copernicus, he didn't WANT to believe in God either. People who are mad at God for things they've seen in life that they don't like tell you Don't belive God. Don't even look that way cause you'll be decieved. We who are NOT mad at God for things we've seen in life tell you you CAN believe God. OR at least look in his direction and see what you see. I really don't have a problem with alternative viewpoints. MY question is that IF God is so unreliable why do people spend so much time & effort to discredit him and those who seek to believe him? Even the most cursory study of science and sceintists will show you that people believe things that are crazier than most anything "fundamentalists" believe. I'm NOT fundamentalist. BTW. Peace.

Well, at least we agree about something. (Just don't ask me to believe that it was some demon playing around in that corn field.) Fair enough. I'd never ask anything as rediculous as that. My scientific research on this subject involves about 14 years of living in a farming community. I learned there, contrary to my "city slicker" upbringing that the term "dumb farm boy" doesn't apply to every person who lives and /or works of a farm any more than the term "nigger" applies to every person of African decent. I found many farmers to be quite intelligent, as intelligent in their field as any person in mine or in other professions that I'd been taught to have more respect for than 'simple' farming. More to it than meets the eye. A more detailed look into what farming involves revealed 'more to it' than I'd seen my entire life to that point from my position of taking cursory glances at it. Farmers I've seen are a fun loving bunch. They love to play elaborate practical jokes. Some of which are quite imaginitive. Farming can be quite monotomous as you failthly perform the same functions harvesting your crops. Some farmers get quite giggy with geometry as they plan to clear their fields; realizing that they way they go about it can save or take them a lot longer. Time is money; if it takes significantly longer to clear a field than 'necessary' your hourly rate falls and you actually make less money selling your harvest because of more time involved in harvesting it. Putting that together with the fact that sometime they have a lot of time on their hands and they can also be quite creative at times. My basic position is that those crop circles we "study" and make movies about have a LOT of "good ol' boys" sittin' 'round the breakfast able back slappin' each other 'bout how DUMB we are to think that ALIENS did that with a space ship. A farmer can look at a sheared stalk of corn and tell you what brand of what type of equipment cut it. I've seen farmers look at the sky, sniff and say, "Boys I gotta go, I got an hour of harvesting to to and an hour and a half before it rains." Looked at my watch & sure enough about 90 minutes later it was pouring. Them farmers can do some pretty amazing things with their equipment. The closest thing I might get to your statement is that a demon MAY have been playin' around in the mind of the farmer who cut the pattern in the field. I'm not inclined to do that either. If I see circles in a field, I see circles in a field. I don't see a puzzle. I don't see potential evidecne of an extraterrestrail incursion. I see some corn is missing.