HCW

Yup rascal. I'm thinking some of the shenanigans started(?) later down the road like the late sixties, early 70's when the influx of young folk hit. Yes, the ministries of other people. That's why I never speak of him as THE man of God for our time. A bit grandiose for my thinking. I could never "chapter & verse" it that ANYone was EVER called THE man of God in the Bible. Hmmmm......... If you ever heard Grace Bliss "pshaw!" at the mention of Vp being called THE MOG... Grace was a true woman of God. SHe was living proof of what Proverbs says about God lengthening your days. I remember her in the 80's in HER 80's. She knew some stuff & had a REAL connection with God. She just run around doing great things for people. She just "Knew stuff." It was incredible. She had a REAL ministry. There were lots of folks around who undeniably had real ministries. The conglomerate of them/us all was the TWI we knew and loved. VP was only a part of it. For a lot of people he wasn't even the biggest part. George Jess never "went Corps," He WAS The Way Corps. He actually personified WC goals in the way he lived. He had NO desire to prove anything to anyone, he just did what he did & it got done. Ermal Owens was so humble that in about a year I don't remember him saying more than a sentance or two. That first year @ HQ we were surrounded by so many impressive people who got SO much done with SO little. If you paid any attention to them you couldn't help but want to help. It added a LOT of credence to VPW. Their ministries were certainly worth buiding on and fighting for and saving. Walter Cummins just seemed to know the WHOLE darn Bible. Greek, hebrew, syriac, you name it. It was like he had the whole Bible on the tip of his tongue. He's the genuine real deal Bible scholar dude. Knowing them and being around them kinda made it worth being there. TWI at its best was like a puzzle with VPW only being one piece of it. I'm thinking that's kinda why some of us older -timers are a little shocked at the concept of throwing away you whole twi experience because of VP's indescretions. Vp was only a part of my TWI experience. He had little to do with the "Word in Fine Arts" stuff I was into. Beth Lowder, John & Meg Kish and others of us did some really ground-breaking bilbical research on artsy fartsy type stuff. Things like the significance of color in the Bible and Biblical documentation of the effect of color on people. We even came up with a pallete of colors for this theory on color-music harmony. Some of the ministry fine artists did some experimental paintings utilizing "color chords" that correspond with musical chords. The theory is that a painting in the colors corresponding with, say, a 'C' chord will "look" like the chord sounds. You may remember the paintings in the lunchroom at Emporia? Remember the swans? The formation was a group of notes that would play a little riff. I did a few illustrations in different chords to see if the mood of the chord would be reflected in the painting; stuff like that VP was really not involved with. He had set some things in motion then we picked up the ball & ran with it. I don't know that Vp overtly used other people ministries so he could hide out & get nookie. He certainly took advantage of and created his own opportunities though.

You know Rascal, I wonder too, how much the drinking had to do with stuff concerning his downfall. It was a real blow to me the first time I saw VPW drunk. He lost a LOT of my respect that day. In my mind I moved him over a category into "VERY fallable." I think that may have contributed for me to not be more hurt by him. I expected less of him from that moment on. That helped me to stand up to him because I just didn't feel that a man who felt the necessity to drink into drunkenness in his position wasn't any "better" than me. I actually saw him as lesser than me from that point. What you said contributes to my thinking that HE turned away from God. I have to admit seeing a huge spot of hypocracy in him as one of the guys on the cross said of Jesus, "He's said so much about saving others, why can't he save himself?" Not comparing VP to Jesus. Yes Sunesis. It also angers me that he went after teenagers. He rationalized so much SO wrongly. We teens may have been jumping in and out of bed with each other having sex like rabbits, but HE wasn't US. He had that singular position as LEADER. Spiritual leader makes it all the worse. It was wrong if the teens were doing it, worse when he did it to them. I have a really great friend who was one of the "Groovy Chistians" at Rye. She never spoke in worshipful manner concerning VP... I wonder why? Again I agree with you. I did a stint teaching in a college. Some of my students were well into adulthood in their 20's. There is an unwritten, sacred trust that goes with leading younger people that is evident the moment you walk in to the situation; it screams, "Take GOOD care of me!." I, and some of the other male instructors would often comment about the constant temptation even if the girls DON'T come on to you. Some do, OVERTLY, some do, unconsciously, some seem to "come on to you" even when it is the last thing on their minds. I totally agree with administration who say it is a matter of character. A line you can NEVER even THINK about crossing. One step across the line was a cause for termination. VP. for some reason had his own boundary issues where he couldn't, or at least we know didn't adhere to the most obvious of boundaries. There is a line of thinking that calls for adults (in this case women) to take personal responsibility for their level of culpability for their involvement in situations like these. I have re-thought my personal position to what I feel is a very simple, point blank place. When you are technically the "responsible party" YOU are responsible, totally, for what happens between you and a subordinate. I expanded that logic into dealing with my teenage daughter after we had a really bad argument where she was quite frankly out of her teen-aged mind. I felt horrible after and decided that since I'm the Dad, I was responsible for the argument even though I wasn't responsible for what she said. We have had several disagreements since, but no more arguments because I REFUSE to argue. I think that won more respect from her and I can now "talk her down" out of the same "trees" we once would argue in. She's still just as insane. I just better understand that there are certain things that cause her to lose her mind and I take responsibility for avoiding them FOR her in the event we disagree. I do that because I LOVE my children. Our sister excie will attest that VPW did NOT love her, no matter what he said. Concerning VPW's spirituality? He did NOT love US. I think he was damaged, lacking the capability to love truly with the love of God, in the renewed mind in manifestation that he spoke so often of. Again a simple line of thinking, If he did love us, he WOULD have LOVED us. He may have wanted to, but he didn't. I think it ironic that it was though his ministry that we learned, some of us learned OF the love of God from "him." Some learned more about love through his words. Now we, after his death discuss how HE was incapable of loving with the love he taught about. Mor of the irony is that his own repeated actions kept him from recieving the healing he needed from God. Its been a kind difficult pill to swallow, the truth about "ol' VP." When you look at him in totality there is no choice but to swallow the more sallow aspects of his character, it changes the flavor of whatever sweetness is in the mix. Doesn't it? I firmly believe there ARE some black & white issues - - there are some absolute truths that we have no choice but to adhere to. In my life now I'm learning more and more what some of them are.

After reading this stuff I feel like I have more to say on VPW. Please forgive me if it gets too long.... My experience in TWI had led me to really understand that Power corrupts . Period. I used to think of it like, "be careful because power can corrupt you if you let it." Now I've altered that position to something like, "Power IS a corrupting influence on your life. If you do not take specific, continual and effective steps to counter the constantly corruptive aspects of having "power," it's influence it WILL consume you. Period. It is only a matter of time before you WILL lose yourself in the intoxicating influence of power." My boys (5 & 8yrs old) ask me every night after I send them to the bathroom & bed, "Daddy will you read us a Bible story? Please Daddy?" I always take the time and miss whatever is on TV or stop whatever work and just open the Old Testament and flip to a narrative on somebody & start reading. I read till they fall asleep, usually a few minutes. The other day I was reading about Saul, as Samuel scolded him (1 Samuel 15) "... as you have rejected the Word of the Lord, the Lord has rejected you from being King." Believe what you will about Vp, nobody can argue that he rejected the word of the Lord, at least specifically in terms of being faithful to "the wife of his youth." I believe that whatever ministry VP had, he rejected the word of the Lord. I believe it "repented God that He had made" VP whatever he had and as VP continued along that path God rejected him. Without God, the TWI machine became an empty shell, power, corruption, "I gotta get Mine." took over to the the point where its been and continues. I just don't see, Harry Wierwille, Ermal Owens, George Jess (the first WC Director) Milford & Betty Bowen and other OLD, Old timers like Grace Bliss; people prior to Jimmy Doop, etc. as being all of the negatives spouted about VP. I don't see them supporting him in anything but a meaningful, solid, Godly thing. THEY built TWI's foundations. THEY ran the cameras, published the flyers cooked the food, gave of more of their lives than most ANY of the rest of US ALL. They were & are salt of the earth people. They volunteered to work for TWI temporarily on a need basis. (Which has not become etched in stone as a "thou SHALT ONLY work for TWI on a need basis.) They REALLY knew VP. The knew what he was trying to do and volunteered of their time and resources to make TWI become a reality. They are who I saw when I first came to work at HQ. They are who I interviewed at length about what TWI was about. "What was happening in this (old black & white) picture? Who is that?" They weren't so taken with VP that they worshipped him. They knew who and what VP was especially his BROTHERS Harry & Rueben. I worked side by side with Milford Bowen for years, J. Fred & Ellie Wilson were great friends of mine. I lived & ate many, many meals with Ralph Dubovsky, when Vince Finnegan & others from the 3rd & 4th Way Corps came back in residence at HQ and lived right next door in TWI's trailer park. Back in the day when the units would shake, rattle & roll when the Ohio winds blew. I lived at TWI headquarters when the BRC kitchen was always open and you could just go down there and rummage through the fridges for midnite snacks. Ralph was a regular... Jon Mahoney was always there getting something ready from something. When I moved to HQ, VPW's policy was that ALL of the resources of the ministry @ HQ were available to every believer, subject of course to the work of the ministry. We helped build the OSC & Mrs. VPW furnished it by going to auctions and buying lots of kitchen cabinets from home builders who'd gone out of business. Way Builders made counter tops & I designed the layout for The graphics area of our Way Pub offices. We ate together, played together, worked to clean up the woods on weekends and we had "household responsibilities" we who lived on grounds could sign up for in addition to our regular jobs, just like chores at home. I did tours and was a VIP driver for stuff like Ambassador One weekends or special Saturday night doo's. I also drove and did lighting for The Way Productions Dance Company. We would put shows together and travel in a van withing a one day radius from HQ., leave Friday night or Saturday morning, set up the venue for the performance, do the show Saturday night and then drive back home to HQ Sunday Am. I also ran camera for SNS on a rotating basis with a few other guys. After a while Joe Coulter taught me how to direct. After we bought the airplanes (including Ambassador one), the motorcoaches, including VP's (People would get rides on the coach to places VP was going to teach. For example, he'd drop folks off along the way if he was passing through places they wanted to go.) The office quipment, printing presses, typewriters, photocopiers, cleaning supplies, food, even, rooms to stay in at the campuses, cars, fleet vehicles & other equipment, tools, everything was available for use for, theoretically, ANY believer who had use of them. The people who were in charge of whatever were charged to do their best to accomidate the need of ANY believer who requested use of "their" stuff. A little prior to my arrival to live "at" HQ, TWI would pay the rent for staff people who decided they didn't want to live on grounds. Staff Orientation would include, "Just find a place you want to live in, make arrangementst to get it and tell us how much it costs. TWI used to rent so many apartments at a complex in St marys that we called it "Way Farm 4." TWI staffers had built a great reputation all over the surrounding areas as desired renters because VP had taught that believers should leave a place better than they found it. I shot weddings on a very regular basis because believers were "always" wanting to get married at the BRC. Almost every Saturday morning, especially in the warmer months I took about an hour out of my day and went down to the BRC and shot complementary pictures of the believers getting married. I'd get them processed and put in press releases in the local papers - - weekly. Believers could write to me and request copies of the stuff I shot, free of charge. More than a few believers flew all around the country on Ambassador One. You would call Flight Services and find out when the plane would be going where and get free airfare for vacations, business trips, etc. by scheduling your trip around what the plane was doing. We even put together a skiing trip to Crested Butte, Colorado where we'd fly out on Amb1, stay at Camp Gunnison for $10.00/night (to cover housekeeping costs) and use fleet vehicles to shuttle us to the skiing area & back. All we had to do was schedule the trip at a time when the place was otherwise sitting around and convince the pilots to come & stay at the camp or ski for a weekend at some of the best skiing in the country! We planned to cover the fuel for the plane & our own expenses for the trip. The pilots were happy to fly folks places or even just give believers airplane rides because thay had to keep their hours up to remain certified. We had maternity leave, "as long as you feel you need it." (My wife at the time took two years off when Jaz was born.) Mothers were encouraged to bring babies to work & put them in playpens in the office if they wanted to come back to work while they were little. Free childcare, etc. When you got married, your spouse was automatically given a job at HQ too (at first, if they wanted it). The perks of being at HQ made your actual money go further because there were "lots" of things we could get from TWI for free or extremely reduced rates that we'd otherwise have to pay a lot for. These were the things that originally prompted them to start calling TWI the best corporation in the world. I was like, its pretty good, but nowhere near the BEST. But, I felt pretty darn rich myself when I worked there (in a way, for a while). Like the time my septic system backed up & I contacted transportation & borrowed a big pump truck to pump it out. It was like going down to my garage & getting out my big truck. I got it stuck in my yard (I didn't realize that big heavy truck would become incredibly heavy truck after filling it and that my soft lawn would be REALLY soft for many days after a good rain ) I had to let it sit there for days then get a bigger tractor to tug on the big truck to ease it away from the leech field that was always softer than the rest of the lawn. Who knew that was where the stuff from the toilet went after a flush? I'm a city kid! My grass was ruined. I had to borrow a big roller to flatten out the huge grooves I made all the way around my house. At any rate I think you can see that the TWI I lived in was worlds away from later twi II experiences. VP's policy was that anything that belonged to TWI belonged to any and every believer because it was their money that bought it. He said we were stewards of what God had provided us for the work of the ministry and anytime something wasn't being used for the ministry it should be available for the believers to use. Of course he had things that were his, I had things that were mine too, like I wouldn't lend MY motorcycle any more than he'd lend his Harley. I did use the limos for dates though. I drove him and other VIP's in his Lincoln for special events & stuff too. I once hitched a ride on the Way Productions motorcoach to St. Louis to pick up a Datsun 280z I bought from a WC bro of mine. BTW, VP didn't have many tricked out Harleys when he died. He had, like two. He had a white one that he'd had for a long time then we bought him "The Twig Hopper." That one was a retirement gift from the Staff of TWI, specifically the "Family Motorcycle Club" and we did, we tricked it out to the max. Sidecar, wireless helmet mounted intercom system custom chrome. We FMC members were motocycle enthusiasts and made sure the Twig Hopper had literally every cool thing you could put on a Harley at the time. We even built some completely custom stuff that wasn't available to be bought. Like we added extra lights to it make it safer at night then realized that motorcycle batteries wouldn't put out enough juice to keep the light bright. So they designed a belt driven generator that the wheels rolling would power it to produce the additional electricity to run all of the custom electrical. We also used The Twig Hopper as an outreach tool. We took it all around the country competing in (and winning most) custom motorcycle shows and placed it in a lot of display at malls, etc. We would witness to people who showed some interest. At one time it was considered one of the top Dress Harleys in the Country. It was VP's but we used it more than he did. Wonder what happened to it. About the only thing that VP had tha was off limits was his Lincoln. The silver Lincoln was a gift from one of the large groups of WOW's. They all pitched in to buy it for him for his birthday or something, I don't remember the occasion. He had wanted one like that for many years and he loved that thing. If I remember correctly the WOW raised almost enough $$ to buy it and the WOW dept. kicked in the rest from their budget. That was the only vehicle in TWI's fleet that was never available for use unless VP was in it. There were only about three of us guys who were allowed to even drive it. Chris Geer, a copule of guys who drove the motorcoaches, one other guy & me is all I knew of. VP was very particular, as you know. VP wasn't the only one living a privileged experience in TWI. I was in many ways a rank & file staffer. TWI made a lot of stuff available to staffers, I just utilized things the ministry made available. I also worked to make things available for others. Like babysitting people's kids when I was single. I watched Howard Allen's kids when they were little & remember telling Vince Finnegan's kid who was being an "executive brat" on more than one occasion, "I don't care WHO yo Daddy is, HE told ME that if you don't do what I say I should tell HIM on YOU ! That was a part of the TWI I lived in. This stuff fits with this thread in that it was policies HE developed and inforced in the same vehement manner an has been shared concerning his abuse of people. I've seen him ream people for being stupidly wasteful of ministry resources. "That thing is not YOUR'S! The BELIEVERS own this place! WIPE your FEET when you come in from the MUD!" This contributes, I think, to a discussion on VPW's spirituality. I'm not waxing nostalgic or offering apologies for VP's negative behavior. This stuff is just as factual as the bad stuff.

Personally, from where I sit & sat I do believe that at one time God called VP. As suspect as the snow on the gaspumps thing may seem to us - God HAS done stranger things as recorded in the Bible. It was something he said he SAW. I know I've "seen" things from God that weren't really there. So the reality or lack thereof of the snow thing really never bothered me personally. I beleieve that at one point there WAS a "ministry of God" emanating from New Knoxville. I actually saw "possessed" people delivered. I "felt the love" and lived a little piece of stuff like from Elena Whiteside's book "The Way Living in Love." I've been healed there both miraculously physically and emotionally. BUT. I went away from HQ and came back to find "the love" missing and spent the next eight years of my life trying to recapture it; like someone else mentioned earlier up the thread. Objectively speaking. I have never believed that VP's whole body of teachings, his total spirituality, so to speak, EVER was to be considered as "Teaching The Word as it hadn't been taught for centuries." The most I EVER believed was that our thing before God, our (TWI's) place in the universe, our position as A ministry AMONG God's ministries, VPW's thing as A man of God AMONG many, many others; contemporary and through other times in history was this: The great mystery. To me, everything else he taught was of lesser importance to that one thing. There were and are plenty of ministries who teach everything VP taught. Few if any were and ARE actively trying to LIVE the GREAT MYSTERY as it seemed to me like WE were trying to do. That great mystery, hid in God for generations, that, if the Prince of this world knew it, he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. The riches of which, the result of which, is Christ IN you - - THE hope of glory. THAT to me was "God's word as it hadn't been taught for centuries." The other stuff - - well.... the important thing was the mystery. Where could you go then (during the tenure of PFAL) where can you go now, what ministry, what church, what minister, what Bible class (even WAP and this "new" stuff current TWIglets speak of???) has the teacher repeating.... "Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ IN you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you.... Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you...." like that. All that emphasis, all that drama, charisma, etc. THAT is what I bought into. Getting THAT word over the World is what I dedicated MY life to. I wanted to live the ONE BODY of Christ and be an example of that - - a living witness to the world of what life could be if we all lived with held fast to the idea that we were and are all family, God's family. Dysfunctions, warts smelly feet et. al. To this day, even in the church I attend now, even though we have a lofty goal of "Being an example of what life would be like if lived out among a community of believers." (In Christ) I have NEVER heard one teaching that can hold a candle to that 20 minute section of PFAL on Christ in you." Never, not ONCE. TWI obviously has lost the mystery. My theory on VPW's spirituality is that I believe he once WAS "tapped in" to God. He had his skeletons, his lusty desires as we ALL do. He gave in to them.

We all have our memories of out time in or around twi. Relatively few of us actually knew VP. Among those of us who did know him even fewer knew him well.My personal theory concerning VPW and twi is that VP never really overcame his own personal demons - his own skeletons in his closet. They say we all have them.

Whose fault is it? Why its MY fault, of course. Just as my x-wives, they will tell u.

It is equally likely that Harve decided to step down and stay in Ohio, close to HQ because he has a very bright daughter who will be a senior at NK High School next year. His daughter is a friend of my daughter's, who graduated this year and is heading for Yale this fall. My Jasmine is an excellent judge of character, extremely choosy about who she considers a friend or no. Jaz told me recently that Harve's daughter was in the process of choosing a college (which to get into a big school is at least a two year process) and she had asked her opinion, seeing as Jaz had been through the whole shabang. Jaz said she suggested that Harve's daughter come join her at Yale next year. That statement alone said a LOT to me about Harve's daughter, who I've come to know as a really great kid. She is really a top level kid, who reflects excellent parenting by people who could be described as some have spoken of Harve & Pegge. IMO it would be a BIG, HUGE, SELFISH mistake for a parent to intentionally move their child with a bright college future to a different school between their junior & senior year. That ALONE would cause me to stay in the area, even if I had no job. You cannot get into a major college without strong, written recommendationSSS from teachers who know you. Besides NK school is a fine school one of the best in Ohio. There are issues of class rank, GPA, and lots of other stuff that has a direct impact on what colleges contact you and which ones actually INVITE you to apply, what kinds of deals they do or don't offer. To move your child between Jr. and senior year is could deal a death blow to your chances to get into the "top" schools. I hope and trust that Harve knows how much of a process it it to get your kid into a top school. I don't see his daughter getting any athletic scholarship offers but she is a shoe-in for all kinds of academic honors. Jasmine & I worked for her entire four years of High school to have her be a competetive student for top tier colleges. Her class rank was #1. She carefully chose a variety of activities that she enjoyed, got her test scores high, etc. Every major college in the country contacted her, including the military academies. Towards the end top schools started waving application fees (some upwards of $80 just to APPLY) non -refundable if you don't get in. Then the offers came, X amount of dollars towards tuition... full tuition... scholarships, etc. Getting into college can be a MAJOR process that for us included trips to presentations, wading through about 100 pounds of college literature. I would be willing to guess that Harve made some decisions in light of his daughter's future. I always kid my Children about them being my retirement plan. Its called 501 JKSBA ! Not to mention it has long been twi's M.O. to surround HQ with what they consider to be their "best" leaders. Stepping down from from director (is that what they call it these days?) level to run the limb & region of Ohio is, in twi's view, a spiritually parallel move. I know when I looked specifically forward at the bill for college it made em make to career decisions. We've estimated it will cost over $200k to send Jasmine to school. These are major considerations probably on Harve's plate.

"Lord I've got an eagle, Feels just like an eagle. Lord I've got an eagle... in-SIDE!" ...was the last part of the chorus of the song Tonto mentioned. Br!an Bl!ss sang it. I think he wrote it too. It was a great song about a believer's personal relationship with God, touched a lot of hearts. I know it used to give me goosebumps. You guys probably ROLFed all over "Lord I've got a BEAGLE inSIDE!" I'm crackin' up now. Too bad our friend Mikey doesn't realize that it IS the detail of his comments that causes people to react to him as we do. Concerning the facts, and just for the record.... I don't remember this stuff cause I think about it or carry it with me. I do have journals and boxes of meeting notes, etc. from my TWI days in my basement. Haven't opened them in years except to relate deatails from my LEAD experience to that thread. I have, however been "blessed" with a "photographic memory." Please don't challenge me on it or ask me to explain it because I can't. I just have this somewhat uncanny ability to recall pretty much everything I've ever paid attention to in my life. I finally came to grips with it one day about 20-25 years ago when my family was sitting around remeniscing about funny stories from our childhoods. I was able to describe the kitchen in our house from memories of stuff that happened when I was about 4 to six months old and unable to talk. As an adult I described mind pictures to my Mom and she said things like that open area behind you was the opening between the kitchen & dining room, the bright light to your right was where the light shined in through the window and the door that was often open. There's a really funny story in our family about how my now, ultra-sophisticated brother, a semi-famous actor star of stage and screen was a "pyromaniac-in-training" as a two-year old. He almost burned me up as I was sitting in my high chair somewhere around six months old. The joke on him was that when Mom left the room for a few minutes to go to the bathroom, he set the broom on fire, freaked out & tried to just put it away. The joke on me was that where he put it set fire to some newspapers that Mom had put on the floor under my high chair. Of course Mom freaked to find her baby boy sitting in a ring of fire in her kitchen! I was just sitting there laughing my head off, my brother was like, "I didn't do THAT!" We both liked the fire not giving one thought to how the house was about to go up in flames along with me! "Too stupid to be scared!" is the punchline. Anyways after having suffered through the embarrassing story - again - I described the room. That long disclaimer is important to me. FOr some odd reason, I really don't want to be thought of as a VPW worshipper or Pro TWI person. I just have a pretty accurate log of memories that pop up if jogged. It not infallable, nor is it all knowing though.

Mike; Whereas I am appreciative of any thanks or complement you may throw my way, let's be clear. Whereas you may think that you and I agree on some things, I will say this: We agree on fewer things than you may imagine AND concerning the points on which we DISagree our disagreement is a huge chasim wider and deeper than the Grand Canyon. That grand canyon of disagreement makes it impossible for me to align myself with you in ANY way. I will ask you again. Please refrain from making statements concerning me that: a. bring you along side of me b. attach yourself, your thoughts, you opinions of VPW to me in any way , shape, or form c. make it look like I'm in general agreement with you personally or your position on PFAL, or VPW OR any element or aspect of TWI. I am thankfully aware that there are people who appreciate some of the things I post. Many have expressed their own thanks and appreciation both privately and publickly. Please be advised that I would apprecite it if you would speak for yourself. Reason being that while you speak of "mastering PFAL," etc. you have shown yourself a master at using the statements of others and your "complements" to them in attempt attach yourself to whatever "positive energy" THEIR posts generate. You act like a parasite as you suck positive energy from them in what to me, are obvious attempts to use them to build your own emotional equity to fuel your own rediculous positions. Your complements, like this one: ...all too often have a little "Mikean zinger" attached like this: Getting to the facts is one of the underlying foundational themes of GS cafe, from what I can see. I also have seen that few want to view "the facts" as YOU see them. Myself included. Hitler and Mousellini (sp?) were GREAT MEN. They were handsome, intelligent, charismatic leaders of men with many admirable qualities. I'm sure that many who interfaced with Hitler have positive stories to give as testimony of their involvement with what history has shown to be one of the most murderous and oppressive regimes in the recorded history of this planet. At the end of the day, Hitler was a murderer hell bent on world domination, he ended the lives of MANY and damaged the lives of many, many, many more. He indirectly CAUSED the deaths of millions from many countries around the world. At the end of the day VPW was a horny, adulterous bastard who in his unfettered lust for power and control and SEX neglected and abused whatever call from GOD almighty he MAY have had on his life. HE damaged the lives of MANY, whom HE, himself, taught were the very elect, the chosen children of GOD, called to be SAINTS. His legacy is now IN THE BUSINESS of utilizing people's honest God given desire to know and be loved by their creator to steal from them, destroy their lives and they don't even CARE if the KILL them in the process. They use people for their own personal lust to have MONEY. They don't even USE the money. They just keep it. At the end of the day... I don't ADMIRE VP. At the end of the day I don't RESPECT him as a great leader. At the end of the day, I feel sorry for him. Why? Well I've read in the Bible whewre it says "Woe unto you scribes, pharasees, HYPOCRITES." I've read in the Bible where it says it is better than a man be drowned by having a millstone hung from his neck than it is for a "minister" to face the judgement after having led GOD's people astray. My position on VPW, Mike, is WOE UNTO HIM. Do we agree on that?

No. BTW. I'm not calling anybody here at the Cafe stupid. In terms of fillin' in some pieces.... There were massive power struggles goin' on all over the ministry. More than a few of the tip top leadership folks were less than impressed with LCM being president. He didn't have the respect and was unable to earn the level of respect VP had. Speaking of work, VP had worked basically every aspect of the ministry at one point in time and had, as the ministry grew, turned over different aspects of it to anyone who'd proven to him they could handle it. He'd give you an opportunity to show him you knew what you were doing and if you did, he was cool with you. If you acted like you knew what you were doing and "blew it," he wouldn't trust you very far. The quickest, easiest way to get in VP's good graces was to show you had a strong, solid work ethic. He felt that the way a person worked was the best indicator of their character, especially how you'd handle yourself when the work was in any way hard, especially when you got tired ot you didn't like the work you were doing. If you did your best, he'd love it even if you messed up. He'd say, "Well, you've got heart." "Heart" and a basic ability & desire to work were more important to VP than "professional credentials." It was Don W. who felt precisely the opposite. VP believed you could take a person with "a heart for God and a desire to work & learn" and teach them the work of the ministry. Donnie believed you could take a trained professional in doing the work and teach them the word. The two, father & son had completely antithetical POV's on basically everything. I was actually closer, friendship wise w/Donnie than VP. My relationship w/VP was more like student/mentor. At times visiting with each of them, they would talk about the other & their differences when it came to ministry philosophy. Personally, I believe that a lot of VP's disfunction was a result of the riff between Donnie & himself. But that's another story.

Yeah Thanks Jard. You jogged some memories for me too. Haven't thought about this stuff for ages. And for the record signals :)--> K.I.S.S. for me was my handle way back in the Trancechat day. I chose it because there was a l-o-t, LOT of craziness flyin' round the threads then. I felt we could use a reminder of the "old" sayin' Keep It Simple Stupid.

I was on staff @ HQ, basically, from 1979 until 1988. I say basically, because I spent a year in residence at Emporia, a year in Indiana as a WOW and a a few blocks at the other root locations before coming back on staff '83 & staying through '88. -- There was no mandate from HQ to keep VP's health condition secret. I was well connected enough that I'd have heard if there was. HQ was "rumor capital of the (way)world." The fact that so many of you share the testimonies given above on this thread is in itself a testament to a BIG part of the problem with TWI. Same as in any church, people "take the ball & run with it." More often than not they run down the worst road available. What has been said above says a LOT about the leadership in your areas. Before anyone jumps me, let me say I'm also not the one to defend VP. Nor am I the one to defend anything about TWI. I just try and take a position on TWI that is factual and reality based. Some facts as I've witnessed myself are: - - VP's condition was not secret, it just wasn't publicised and as someone else mentioned; not shouted from the rooftops. As Linda Z said, VP sorta "dissapeared" for a long while when his healthe declined. I knew he was getting tests & stuff done like that cause I hung with one of his son's in law a good bit. I always HATED the fact that TWI would, in essence, hide things under the auspicies of "not confessing negatives." I was an outspoken advocate of telling people "negatives;" as in "The WORD says when we pray we should be specific." The debate was that telling the general TWI populace "ALL of the facts" would cause more damage than do good, noting how people tend to go down the negative path.... I felt that was BS. I felt that we should trust the people whose money we used to supply our livings to be smart enough to PRAY when they heard of extreme things concerning THEIR ministry, rather than FREAK. Please keep in mind the climate of the times was that Government and military would keep LOTS of stuff away from people (Watergate anyone?). It wasn't really a TWI thing, TWI leadership just bought into it. - - I, as keeper of TWI's historical photo files, saw the pictures from the filming of PFAL. I saw his eyes swollen, cold wrags applied to his eyes between filming sessions. I saw pictures of his getting extra makeup applied to dark circles around his eyes. Yes. The eye which was later removed was worse than the other. - - VP later regretted being talked into (as he put it) having his eye removed. He hated wearing his glass eye. He never got used to it. It didn't look natural as "they" said it would. It wouldn't turn in concert with his other eye, so he often looked cockeyed. It was wierd, people would stare, then look away trying not to stare. He really wasn't the same after that. For those of you who wish that he was emaciated, or knocked down a few notches... he WAS. Taking his eye was a point of no return for him. He really hated being like that, it was torment fo him. - - His health declined on a "normal" glide-path, so to speak. The "rapid decline" thing was part of the legend. He knew he didn't have much time left when he went to Gartmore, that's WHY he went, especially when he did. He actually didn't seem to want to be around much longer. There were lots of folks who were leaving HQ who had been "lifers" they were disgusted with how things were, just didn't want to be there @ HQ anymore. - - It was LCM, more than VP that started the MOG for our times crap I never heard VP ask to be called that, nor did I ever read it in any of his books or magazine articles or "By The Way" essays. There was a BIG difference between the HQ & left and the one I came back to two years later, then after the Corps. The HQ I left was like a big family, I came back to a colder, less personal corporation. When I left "everybody" was on a first name, even nickname basis. We called the older folks by titles, Mrs. Allen, Mrs. Owens, Mrs. Wierwille. Us younger folk called VPW "Dr." as a nickname, not a formal title. The real "oldtimers" called him VP. There was no confrontation or reproof about titles. Craig & Rosalie took more and more power. Rosalie proported herself to have VP's ear and spoke "as if she knew" in VP's stead. She instituted policy and procedure and more policy and more procedure. Red tape abounded where we used to be more like Nike - Just do it. The more power they & the trustees exercised, the more VP operated kinda covertly. It was covert in the sense that since HE was VP, he could do what he wanted, when he wanted. He didn't HAVE to tell anybody what he was doing, nor did he have to go through the approval process to do anything. Eventually the trustees relented and figured that if he was traveling around teaching, he wouldn't be "messing things up" around HQ. For example. I used to get direct calls from his secretary(s) or aide(s), even Chris Geer when he had the job, "Dr. Wants to see you in the motorcoach, what's a good time for you to get away." I'd drop whatever project I was working on and go. On the way out the door I'd say, "I'm going to the motorcoach Dr. VPW wants to see me." That kinda P.O'ed department leadership cause they couldn't "nazi" me. Deadlines would move, meetings could wait, etc. VP had ultimate clout. My job put me in front of VP, LCM, the trustees and other major leadership on a pretty regular basis. I got to know them all personally, beyond the employee relationship. - - Yes. VP did hate the Athletes thing. He also hated them putting his name on the auditorium, he hated pretty much everything that was going on at HQ in the last years of his life. He actually ordered that his name NOT be put on the building. LCM waited until he died and had the sign changed; among his first few, "I'm REALLY in charge now" statements. Things became progressively bad at HQ through the mid to late '80s. There was a constant "battle" between the "real Old-Timers" and the new, young, Corps kids who didn't know crap about how we did things. As VP's health declined, there was more and more of "That's how VP used to run things, we don't do that anymore." The more and more that people got fed up & left, the more some of us felt we should stay and "fight for the Word." Basically it became just more and more of a fight. It was difficult for a lot of people to see VP weak. He spent most of his last years of vitality traveling around teaching, writing his "By The Way" articles for the St. Marys newspaper and overseeing Way Productions. He was on his own massive PR campaign to win the favor of the locals around HQ. It worked very well in terms of outreach. Then internally, there was that whole "I Wish I Were The Man I Know To Be" song thing. That was the beginning of Harve Platig's rise to power. Prior to that Harve was just yet another decent guitarist, which in those days in the ministry they were a dime a dozen. If memory serves, Harve presented that song to VP as a gift during one of his visits to Emporia while Harve was in residence in the ninth Corps. VP loved it & made Harve a star by having him play it all over the country. I remember VP teaching the same teaching, "The Joy of Service" over and over & over again. He said that teaching was the key to saving the ministry after he was gone. The trusteezs made VP more and more of an "emeritus" icon. They wanted him to fade away. They pushed him into a corner, and gradually turned him from founder & President to just plain old founder, then ancient history. They would trot him out like, "look at our wonderful founder, our father in the word!" like "wave at the peoples, VP - - now go sit down in your special seat." He went to Gartmore for "no apparent reason." most folks didn't know he was gone or where he was. Back in the day we ALWAYS knew when VP was, it was even "event-worthy" when he came home. We used to line the circle drive to pray & wish him well when he left, and we could take a break form working to go say hello when he came home. That faded away after Craig took over. Nonoby really though enough of Craig to stop working when he got back from anywhere. When VP got back from Gartmore he was largely inneffective by then. All of his "projects" had to be "approved" and thrown into the red tape bin that was everything else that we did. Some of them even didn't get done - - a major change. - - A lot of people at HQ, myself included, were really ****** about the "VP died of a broken heart" announcement. Again that came from LCM. We were basically give a scripted announcement that was supposed to be a "blue alert" that was to go through the wat tree. I distinctly remember saying, "what?" that's BS, how can you DIE of a broken heart??? POP later laid the blame for VP's decline into death suqarely at the feet of Martindale and the rest of the trustees for their betrayal of the ministry and God and VP personally. POP, as you know, stated that the then current BOT had turned their backs on God and had systematically turned the ministry away from God and His work. They ALL admitted to it and read their hand written comments concerning the same, that were signed as part of their signatures, like Oakspear mentioned. I was there front row center balcony the night CG read POP. At that time, I think we felt the long battle was "over" and we could finally work to return HQ the homey, "family place" it once was. VP was gone, it was then up to US to turn the ship around and sail into the future with God. Of course you know that never happened. I never knew CG that well, beyond smalltalk greeting type stuff. He wasn't widely liked, but everyone respected him You either liked him or didn't. Somewhere along the way it did become a major power struggle for control of the entire ministry. There were rumors long before POP that once VP stepped down there was a power struggle for the ministry. As I've shared before in other threads, the general line on Craig as President was to let him run around teaching and leading the Corps and let Donnie & Howard run the business. In the early days VP ran the business, did the teachings, pretty much everything. LCM wanted to be VP Jr. Donnie wanted to be the corporate, defacto-president, as ViceP in that he was in charge of all of the business aspects of the ministry. Howard wanted complete control of Gunnison. They were willing to give CG Great Britain, as long as he reported to them. CG said, "Bulls@#t, I'm NOT gonna be under YOU, you Goddless, murdering *******s." Craigers said, "Oh yes you are." Chris ceseeded (sp?) from TWI, took as much of VP's works with him as he could get. He outmanuevered the TWI legal dept. to keep whatever copyrighted stuff he wound up with. Craig got mad and started calling HIM possessed. Then LCM said, Seeing as CG had all of these Devil spirits over there in Gartmore, he infested VP with them when VP went to him for "help." This caused VP to decline very rapidly. THEN he came over here and blindsided our well meaning asses with his spiritual coup attempt to take the ministry from us. His army of spirits seduced us because we were vulnerable, still suffering from our (and my personal) grief from the loss of our father in the word. LCM continued with: I know what we said when he was here I know what I/we wrote at POP. I know the promises we made, we were not possessed, but we were certainly INFLUENCED by CHRIS's demons. He's the possessed one, not us. That was LCM's story and apparently he stuck to it.... and RAN with it. That "VP gave up the ghost" stuff came from Craig. There were some rumblings @ HQ about the BS factor around VP's cause of death. Then it was announced that we'd be told the exact cause later. Then we were told later he died of melanoma. Few people knew what it was until some looked it up as being cancer. I don't remember one word of possession talk regarding Vp's death. The teaching (to repeat what someone said above) was that cancer was CAUSED by devil sprits, and that a person could GET cancer and not be possessed. LCM certainly needed the whole possessed thing to control people. He preyed on people's innocence and desire to know God. I also believe it was a MAJOR mistake to make LCM president. Craig didn't go along with his being the "spiritual head" of the ministry and Donnie W. running the business. Even during the "glory years" VP turned more and more of the day to day operations of the ministry over to those of us more qualified than he to do whatever. That was part of the "natural evolution" of TWI. By the time VP became ill, he was basically out of "running" TWI. toward his end it was more like, "No you're not coming BACK and running things like you used to. In the old, old days when we were small you could "do everything." Now we're just too big, we need policies and procedures...." The President position had evolved. VP was happy to be able to tell people, "You're the professional, you tell ME how we should do it." When I worked with him, he'd tell me somethinkg like. "I'm thinking about writing thus and so in my fall letter to the believers, can you do a letterhead that goes with that theme?" I'd go do it. Then I'd call him & set up a meeting wto explain my thought process of how I came up with what I did. We had many good conversations about thought processess and the "why's" behind this that and the other thing we did in the ministry. I got to know him and his vision for the ministry pretty well. That was why I felt I should stay at HQ to help lead in the original vision for the ministry, seeing as I'd heard firsthand from the "horse's mouth" what he felt about a LOT of it. In light of that I did basically all the promotional work for PFAL, the WOW program, The Way Corps, Rock of ages and the University of Life. They still use my logo on the magazine and my overall design for it. Sorry for the long post. There was a good bit of stuff to address from an insider's point of view. I know how a lot of you guys feel about VP and I don't blame nor condemn you for your position. I do believe, however, in agreement with yet another post above, that VP did many things that were atypical for your average "Pinky & the Brain" cult leader, bent on world domination. Especially waaaaayyyy back in "The Chimes Hour Youth Caravan" days. Back then there just weren't a lot of available hot yound chicks for him to be lecherous with. The advent of the hippies in the late '60s - early '70s and the prevailing free sex, drugs & rock & roll era certainly brough opportunities that he obviously took advantage of. Honestly, for all I knew of him and combined with my own personal experiences in ministry, I don't know which came first, "the chicken or the egg." TWI history has revealed to us that he at the very least felt he could get away with the extracirricular stuff he was doing. TWI history also reveals that TWI was bigger and more than VP. My position is to give credit where credit is due. Some of our "leadership" were straight up "assh*(@$" when they came to TWI. VPW too. Drawn away of his OWN lusts, enticed.... Later; -hc

Let's take a look at that type of statement. Not only the statement itself but the TYPE of thinking it represents. "Evil" is not a THING that has been invented. The thinking that Satan "created" "evil" illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding of both "evil" and what it means to "create." Please don't take this post personally, I'm speaking against the thought process popularized and accepted by people in general. Not you, personally. I'm as guilty of buying into the process as anyone else. Ever try to feed a baby a tasty morsel of baby food? Sometimes the baby will clamp his cute little mouth shut utilizing what physicians say are, pound for pound, the stongest muscles in his rolly-polly little, barely able to sit up by himself body - - and just say NO. You're not gonna get that spoon into that mouth. That is a straight up, flat out refusal to follow the will of the parent. Especially when parent says, "Open the hangar so the airpwane can come in..." At that point, especially, the NO is "sin." That, in principle, IS "evil." Just as it took the baby no "ability equal to God's to create" to say no, it takes no ability to 'create' for Lucifer to think, say, then do and encourage others to just say NO to God and what God wants or instructs. We don't (or maybe we do -->) see a baby not opening his mouth as evil. We tend to see what we individually, then collectively, believe as very bad to heinous as "evil." Society has largely bought into a definition that has birthed a term into an entity that has some sort of life of its own. It doesn't. The entire concept of evil as some sort of 'thing' is simply a lie. Evil is simply the result of a decision, its not a 'created thing.' It is actually quite easy to do the opposite of any specific instruction, ask any baby, or child; take mine (please ) for example. The term is applied to specific behaviors that lumps them into a specific category. God uses the term throughout the Bible as in "these things are bad." The term evil was applied later, IMO, as a means to an end of behavior modification by religious zealots to scare folks away from specific behaviors that they don't want you to do. "oooOhhh, thats baaad" or "He's eeeevvil; stay away from him." One of my biggest pet peeves concerning evil is what I feel is the rediculous concept of "cursing" i.e. saying a " bad word. In the context of this thread; a "fag" in America is this greatly stigmatized male with what society says is (at best) a 'confused' sexuality. In Europe a fag is a cigarrette that lots of people desire; now increaingly stigmatized in the US. I don't curse much, because I believe over much use of "curse words" illustrates a lack of education and command of the language, not because I believe the words, themselves, are "evil." A well placed 'F-bomb' can be ****in' effective if you ask me, however. There was never any creation involved nor any "invention" of "evil." As far back in man's recorded history as Genesis 2:9 Evil is simply used as a term representing a category of behaviors. Evil and wickedness is manifested one thought and one action or deed at a time. "Good" is what God IS, "evil" is what Lucifer became. Lucifer decided one event at a time to illustrate a propensity towards rebellion against God and His goodness; therefore his works were "evil." In Genesis, God saw everything that he had made and called it all "good." Lucifer's rebellion and subsequent expulsion from "heaven" (as place of residence) had occured prior to God's statement. He then went to work on "evilatizing" all that God has so piously (in lucifer's opinion) called "good." Lucifer & his hosts personify 'evil,' they want us to see evil as a living thing that inevitibly WILL devour us all. From the evil POV, evil IS good, and GOD, and his goodness is the perversion. "Well, IF God is so damn "good" and "loving" why does he... "all of the above...." "Oh, HE doesn't actually DO the bad stuff? Then he allows it, how GOOD is that?" All the while God is "silent." He doesn't take the time to defend his position. Unfortunately, it is the Christian's, those who boldly claim to know God, have an intimate relationship with Him and live their lives according to His will.... They are the ones who do the most to keep the "concept of evil" alive. Non-christians, the non-religious, just live. Sure 'they' do evil, but the Bible says that WE (Christians) DO TOO. It also goes so far as to say that if we SAY we DON'T do evil, we ARE lying and the truth is NOT in us (like we SAY it is; ellipsis supplied). AND. It says that the PROOF that we are, in fact, in him, that is in Christ, is the LOVE we show one to another. When we read 1st John it says NOTHING about speaking in tongues as undeniable proof that we are born again. It speaks of loving and LIKING your brother as external proof (in the way you LIVE) of the internal change in a person's life when they change from death to life with the new birth of God, in Christ in you. There is NOTHING in the Bible that prevents a 'gay' person from being born again. I teach my children to "do good unto ALL men, especaily those who are of the household of faith." I add ANY faith. I teach my children that ANYONE who believes they love God, under ANY banner is YOUR brother or sister in Christ. I teach them to avoid "evil" as in "the best way to stay out of trouble is to stay AWAY from trouble. I teach my children to LOVE people no matter how BAD the stuff they do is. It is a shame that the Christians are leading the charge against people they define as injured and damaged at the specific hand of satan under the auspicies of HELP and LOVE. The current "anti Homosexual" position of the Christian community does more damage to their cause than good. Ex10. For what its worth. My 18yr old daughter brought the same, "Why should I be a Christian when I see Christians acting so UN-Christian?" question to me a few years ago, probably around the same age of 15 as yours. I used what has become my standard approach, "What makes you feel thay way honey? Tell me about it, ok? Can you tell me what you're feeling about it?" I stop everything, give her my undivided (as much as possible with other little ones running around) attention. We sit away from the TV and little kid noise. I do that because what she says then helps me to craft my response without going off on my irrational "parental concerns" tangents (which really hack teens off BTW). I teach my children to use the SAME separation of the person from their behavior as I do with them. I love them and hate some of the things they DO. Everything we do has consequences, I teach them the consciously choose things that will bring them consequences that want to live with as best they can and DON'T do things they know will bring them things they don't want to live with. I've found it gives a solid foundation that we can use as a starting point. Personally I handled the homosexual issue with my daughter under the "consequences of abstinence and lack thereof" talks. She has friends who partake of a number of things I/we disagree with. My response to her about ANYONE discriminating against anyone else, especially in the Christian context, was, "They are NOT being Christian when they act like that. I don't care WHO thay are, you show yourself Christian by the way you treat people. I've tried to raise you to BE Christian, if you like the person, personally, BE their friend - same as you would ANY of your other friends." I really don't care who a person desires to have sex with. I'm not gonna witch hunt someone's sexuality any more than I'll witch hunt lying. As a WOW I lived with a crazy person and we had an openly gay guy become a faithful person in our/my fellowship. Even then, I didn't 'confront' him with what the Bible says about homosexuality, I didn't go one inch further out of my way to prepare teachings to "confront the issue" no more than any other needs or issues to "confront." Jesus said "go and sin no more" (or "stop doing that") when he was right in the midst of the specific situation. It was like, "...hellO-o, they were killing you with rocks, go and stop doing that stuff, it IS wrong, you know." When my gay guy brought "gay issues" to me. I talked to him about it, appropriately for the situation. I didn't pull any punches, but I didn't stomp him into the ground. I gave him enough to make his own decision and treated him like any other brother ni Christ. I believe I'll see him in heaven. I think he hung around our fellowship because he felt WELCOME there. If we truly believe people have "issues," we, who say we are Christians, should welcome them to be with us. We need to develop the confidence in our own position in Christ and in God Himself that we don't have a problem with ANYONE. I'd say tell your daughter to invite her gay friends over for dinner at your house and have a great time. My daughter has become one of the most popular kids in her school, one that her friends respect and bring some of their issues to. When she has questions about it she brings them to me. She has to deal with "TWI kids" who have done some pretty heinous and insane things. He friends even like ME! Some of them that I don't even know sent me birthday greetings. You daughter seems to be one who care about people. You're doing the right things, I know you didn't tell her to shun her gay friends too. Gay people aren't going anywhere. We have to learn to live with 'them' (ooh I HATE calling people 'them') same as they have to live with the hypocracy that is rampant in the Christian community. If I need a body guard I'm gonna hire the biggest, most intimidating black guy I can find and give him dark sunglasses to wear at night. If I need some shrimp fried rice I'm gonna hire an Asian cook. If I need to win a decorating contest, I'm hiring "the Fab Five." Forget you buddy! I wanna win!

In terms of comparison. There were 1000 people who attended the first ROA. As previously stated here there was a 250% increase in attendance at ROA 72 to 2500. ROA moved from two flatbed trailers at HQ grounds to the Shelby County Fairgrounds because there were too many people coming to accomodate @ HQ. Bill Winegarner & Art Poling (Way Builders Coordinator) had the sense then to project that the amount of $$$$ it took to rent the Fairgrounds and put on ROA off site over a period of years coud be "better spent" by investing it into HQ grounds and building a custom designed temporary 'city' to accomodate the believers who came home for ROA. Way Builders built electrical, phone, computer, and sewage to support about 25,000. There were long range plans to expand the grounds as needed. I distinctly remember being told at an HQ Staff meeting that it was decided to lay enough phone and computer network lines through the ROA grounds that they would last 100 years. The percentage of believers who came to ROA was never anywhere near 50% during the 80's. I don't remember the exact number, but I do remember the goal was 25,000 in attendance. The most we got was the around 23,000 and that figure leveled off to around 18 - 19K in the mid 80's. We, the rank & file staffers were largely unaware of the sexual & other atrocities being perpetrated on the field; motorocach "visits" et al. It took about 4 to 5,000 people to put on ROA, just to adequately staff it. The main tent @ ROA was custom built by the tent company to fit the black asphalt area it sat on @ HQ to accomodate ROA every year. It can seat 15,000 depending on the seat configuration and, at least at that time was the largest canvas tent in the world. ROA was listed in the Guiness Book of World Records as the largest tent covered area in the world. Its interesting to me how we started asking people about who was planning on coming to ROA in order to be able to properly accomodate the numbers. Then it turned in to telling people "you better come, or else" for events after "the purge." The biggest group of WOW's was somewhere around 32 - 3800. The goal was 4000 WOW's in one year. Between 1972 and 1983 there was a nearly 900% increase in ROA attendance. They expanded the camping area; Mr. Poppe, who had said he'd only sell his land to TWI over his dead body, died - his kids sold some land to TWI. They expanded the camping area and moved the teens way out there in the woods, noise & all. The dorm was built thinking that during ROA off the field older leadership types could stay there during Corps Week ROA. It was much like when I make my kids sleep on the floor in their sleeping bags & give up their beds for adults when they visit. Empty beds now. The TWI staff at Hq was about 800 at its max, 95% of us were officed in the OSC. The highest number I remember was an estimate of 300,000 TWI followers worldwide. Perhaps only 100,000 were considered active? There were about 4500 Way Corps graps (about 75% ???) who refused to "take the mark of the beast" by pledging allegiance to LCM. Most of them had "top" positions, the leftovers stepped in , or should I say UP into the vacant positions. Given the numbers of current TWI folk it is easy to see how that have LOTS of empty space @ TWI. No wonder they started ordering folks to come to events.... Gotta justify the electric bill! They had bought more and more land around the original Wierwille family farm to where they now own over 300 acres. No one in the NK area will buy any land back from TWI. They have buildings around the area that they "use" just because they have them. Some Way stuff has been on sale for years. The local corporations like Crown Equpiment Corp., Minster Machine and Honda are true world class organizations they don't buy the TWI inflated bullcrap. They know what is valuable & what isn't. Plus they have enough $$ to procure their own lands & build their facilities as they see fit. I do think it was Crown who bought TWI's hangar at NK airport. That hangar was valuable. Who wants a 1500 seat auditorium in the middle of nowhere? In contrast. The church I attend in Dayton, Christian Life Center, or CLC averages about 2,200 people per weekend, about 3-400 per week for mid-week service and we bring in about $73,000 per week in the offerings. Most of our classes are free. Some that have materials, like books & stuff there is a fee for the book (around $12.00), but if you honestly can't afford it, keep it anyway; we want you to have it. We have about 1500 families published in our member directory. A large percentage of the 1500 are married with kids, and the church has been around for a few decades, so I have no idea how large our membership plus non member number of people actually is. 8 to 9,000 would be a conservative estimate. Dayton, Ohio is one small city and CLC is one of many large churches in our one small city. As someone said earlier... TWI's current numbers represent the fact that they are D-E-A-D. Now. Not dying - - dead. They have reached a point on the life-cycle chart where the 'leader's' do what they do because they've been doing it and the followers come because they've been comimg. Its "what they've always done," so they keep coming and doing the same ol' stuff. In TWI's case, the same ol stuff is being different than the old ol' stuff. When LCM took over - - "We're not like that anymore." Now with Rosalie that're moving "Beyond the mistakes and errors in judgement of the past administraytion. Twi's gig has always been to give folks hope of this great future. "Word over the World" changed to "The Prevailing Word" not there is this aparent hope of 'restoration.' "Things are better now, you should come to a Sunday Service...." a very old and once dear friend of mine who has remained "in" through all of the years said that to me about a year ago at a NK High School track meet. I looked at her, smiled and said "I don't think so." If you're still "in" take notice of these facts: 1. Word over the World never happened. 2. The Word is NOT Prevailing, even in TWI. 3. Just because you don't have Craig screaming like a lunatic every week does not mean "things" are "good." Better than horrible is still bad. Rosalie and the trustees are not going anywhere - - ever. You are there to keep bodies in the seats and keep the lights on. TWI will continue to exist without you. They only need you so they can continued with their charade of being a "ministry." I ministry has to have people, right? How can you be proud to celebrate that in "...62 Years of Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" you were able to get an many people to attend your celebration as did the first major event of the ministry over 33 YEARS ago? How many people from ROA '71 were there @ 62'nd Anniversary? TWI is dead. Stop giving them your money. Give 10 - 15% of your income to your neighbor down the street or around the block who lost his job. See how blessed you feel after doing something REAL for somebody. Do something, anything with your money other than paying the electric bill in the empty buildings or paying the salaries of TWI staff members. What does TWI actually DO nowadays anyway?

Topoftheworld: Welcome. We talk a lot here at the cafe about people who will be helped by the stuff folks say. To see it alive in you is REALLY a cool thing. Thanks for your wonderful post. You have really helped all of us. I'm a relative newby here too. I guess is only human to think and wonder if hashing over the "same ol' stuff" is really worth it. Well, How much is one person's life worth? Thanks again. Hey Mj! Your post was a real tear jerker too. Deeper then the ocean. There is really something special about being allowed to look in to a person soul for a few minutes like that. I feel honored that you would trust us with a piece of your life like that. Thanks to you too. :o-->

I was talking about perspectives diazbro. Some people only saw certain sides of VPW and their view point, aka their perspective of him shapes their perception. I pointed out the nature of VPW's character. You pointed out that is was contradictory - - it was. To some he was like a father figure, to others he was a monster, of the worst kind. Some people just never saw the monster, their perspective and therefore, their perception of VPW differs from those who saw the monster. I also pointed out that the facts, apparently hidden from most, were available prior to his death. However, I believe you when you say they were hidden. I wouldn't put anything past most anyone who was 'major leadership' in TWI in any TWI era, I, II, or the current administration. Most certainly those who were not thrown out or stayed after the big purge. You do realize that it is impossible for me to know something I didn't know, don't you? Or do you see me as yet another VPW worshipper? You appearently do. Actually, I'm not... really, I'm not . It IS a simple fact that TWI grew when VP ran it declined when he began delegating control and made a quick downward turn under LCM. I can't speak to all of the contributing factors. Your statement: Oh please spare me.... I know the facts you pointed out. AND. I am in NO haste to portray VPW as a hero in any way shape or form. I actually knew him. Personally. I worked for him and was trusted by him. He personally paid the last portion of my tuition when I neede $$$ to graduate from The Way Corps.... SO - freakin' what. Big whoopty doo. The fact that I knew him, or should I say, for context consistency's sake, knew a PART of him has NOTHING to do with what HE DID to people. The fact that he "was there for me" when I needed help in NO WAY negates what he did to my friends. The contradiction lies in HIM. He was in a perfect position to be 'wonderful' to EVERYBODY, he CHOSE to take advantage of his position in extremely self-serving ways. That's the FACTS, jack. Another fact is that while I thanked him for what he did for me I HATE him for what he did to YOU (any YOU that the YOU applies TO). Also. It really hacks me off when I see people engaging in the same type of destructive behavior they speak out against. I'm not hacked at you diazbro, or anyone else, personally. What hacks me off is the process. The thought process. My statement regarding "Old Testament History class" referred to my dissapointment after "a deeper look into the lives of" the people we studied in the class FROM THE BIBLE who are "Biblical heroes." My previous statement regarding VPW (at least what I thought I was trying to say) was that the lessons learned after my personal experience with him is that putting trust in HIM, certainly will "let you down." THEN I said your statement was TRUE from a matter of (your) perspective. Different people DO have differing perspectives, do they not? VPW had power. He was corrupted. Whether he ever had good intentions or not is pretty darn irrelevant, wouldn't you agree? Ask anyone he hurt what THEY think about his 'good intentions.' What hacks me off, however, is the thought process that IMO keeps people enslaved by him. I believe that when a person cannot acknowlege any positive VP may have done as at least having positive effect on those involved; that person is, NOT, free. That person, perhaps, is not as "OUT" as they think they are. Perhaps they are not as free from the web that is TWI as they might think. What you said, diazbro, reminded me of the process; I'm not saying that's what you did, per se. At any rate. I see that thought process as the result of an injury that is yet to be healed completely. Emotional injuries are as real as any physical, as we know. I don't see the person who may exhibit 'the process' necessarily as bad in any way. I see them as injured. For example. I walk with a slight limp. The limp is a result of an pretty serious injury to my left leg six months ago. After months of physical therapy and rehab work, it still has a ways to go before its completely back. Until its healed it will still show evidence of the injury. I can walk normally with a brace, even participate in pretty strenous workouts with the brace. One day it will be healed completely. The evidence will be there as long as it is not healed. The injury may even change my leg permanently. I believe we all are like that. We were 'all' injured by TWI to differing degrees. I respect EVERYONE who posts here, whether we agree on specific points or not. I'm not immune. I've seen places in my own life where I wasn't as free or as healed as I thought. Sometimes fightin' it out on the forums shakes loose some hidden TWi crap from the corners of our minds. Keep swingin bro. you're cool w/me.

In terms of perspective, this is just not a true statement. I'm not saying this to argue with anyone or speak in support of VP. I, for one, have learned nothing new about VP from Waydale or GS cafe. There was 'never' a time during VP's tenure that he wasn't controversial. There were always critics, there were always x-way people, leaders, pre-corps era and WC grads and drop-outs that spoke agains him and the ministry. It continued to grow in the face of and in spite of all criticism. The 'lessons learned' about VP's life since his death, as well as what I personally observed of his life as a first hand observer and a student of his, for me, primarily put into perspective and serve as eternal punctuation to a statement I'm sure we've all heard before: "You can't put your trust in men; every time you do they will certainly let you down." Old Testament History class in The Way Corps (which I do have an actual accredited degree of higher learning from) was a devastating disappointment for me. A deeper look into the lives of Biblical heroes than what is usually spoken of them from the pulpit was disappointing to me. They did all of the same things 'bad' people on the street did. Some did MUCH, much worse. Diazbro's statement above is true from a matter of perspective, but from differing perspectives, people see him differently because they've experienced him differently. Power corrupts humans. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Somebody didn't just 'make that up' one day saying, "Ooohh, that sounds cool, I'll coin that phrase." Very, very few are able to successfully wield power for long without being corrupted by it. The statement is a result of someone's valid experience. We speak freely here in the cafe of VP's corruption. Fact is, however, that when he ran TWI it grew and when he turned over the reigns it shrunk to a level of relative insignificance. All criticism speaks more of the critic than the criticised, no matter how true the criticism is. A person who flings mud on someone else, himself, has dirty hands. Whenever we look 'up' to anything having to do with man in this life, we WILL be disappointed sooner or later. It was more than the charisma of a snake oil salesman that built The Way ministry. People were healed. Crutches and wheelchairs were left behind at Rock of Ages. I have been healed, personally, I have personally healed others. I have found God faithful as VP said He (God) would be. I have found in VP, that in his flesh, there is no good thing, as the Apostle Paul wrote was the case in himself. That was part of my experience in TWI. Nothing in this world is all that it's cracked up to be. I learned that during my experience with VP and TWI. I 've since had opportunities to observe other 'lofty' individuals who are all the same as VP - FLAWED. Myself included. (in the flawed category ) Whatever your perspective on VP, I believe it is healthy to know and accept the fact that there are differing perspectives.

Isn't that true of many more of us than who would ever readily admit it? The 'us' I'm referring to is human beings.

The fact of the matter concerning VPW is that different people had very differing experiences with him. The prevailing wind here at the GS Cafe, maybe rightfully so, is to point out the negative aspects of his character, things he did, etc. That wind blows so strongly here that few people even dare bring out positive experiences or point out any thing positive they may think or even know to haev been true about the guy. You get branded "VPW worshipper" which I've seen to be among the worst of tags a person can get in the cafe. My concern, as always, is not so much who VPW was, or wasn't but who are WE, today. If VPW was, in fact all of the worst things spoken of him, and we, or any one of us are ugly people today... the WORST of VPW 'wins' and TWI, today IS made correct.... Their version of "The Word" does in fact, "prevail." I actually knew the man, personally, I knew The Way International ministry intimately. There is, as Paul McCartney's song says, "good and bad, in everyone, learn to live..." I don't have a problem with anyone relating their thoughts, opinions, or experiences as you see them. In fact, I welocme it and encourage it. I would caution though, that if a person cannot even accept the concept that VP had some good qualities. did some godd and notable things in his life; IMO that person is simple NOT free of whatever bad VP did, in fact, do or promote. My concern for myself and others is that we be free, truly free, from whatever bad there ever was, is or ever will be concerning TWI. I'm not about spouting the virtues of VP, but please, keep in mind that one person's vehement disgust concering him and the way it may be expressed here can and will retard the healing process in some who only saw "The Wizard of OZ" side of him. One person's negative experience cannot negate another's positive and vice versa.

Thanks JL. The question was general to "whomever" you did inspire it though. Same to you ChasU. The stuff you wrote really helps me understand what you're talking about. When I left things weren't as bad as what you guys mentioned. I think what Bramble wrote was super. All of this should be eye opening for people who are still in and very helpful for 'outies,' if there is such a thing. I mean, you have the income, you work the jobs, WHY NOT? Why not buy a car that you like? Wow. Talking to my brother, who has lived in NYC long enough to be a REAL New Yorker, helped me SO much in terms of simply thinking clearly. We didn't really talk about 'way stuff' just 'things & stuff.' I found myself thinking about so much of what he said, "Oh. Yeah! Why not?" He sees things in a clear, simple way, without all of the, 'pre-thought-thinking' religions, require. I asked him once what he based something he believes on. He said, "...Because I want to..." No concordances, no Greek, hebrew, etc. No long dissertation in the proper format. I learned from him, "Because I want to" is really good enough. One of the beefs I used to have w/twi is that I never saw anywhere in the Bible where God said, "...and be ye scholars of Me." If you think about it, getting born again ALONE, is enough for GOD. He has placed us each in the body of Christ as HE sees fit. Sure he wants 'everybody' to be saved. He never asked EVERYBODY to be the part of the body that goes running to win souls though. Twi was, as most churches are, about winning wallets. Wallets (purses too) need bodies to bring them, bodies need souls - - "Let's go WITnessing!" I'm thinkin' about the "We also quit doing Bible stuff," comment. I just don't get my buns twisted over stuff like that anymore. God knows where you are. He has no trouble finding anyone. Being free is a good thing, isn't it?

There are lots of ministers and ministries that do that. I'm not sure of this but it may be a "prevailing wind" in christianity in America today. I used to attend a church where they even take it so far that they counsel all adults to avoid being alone with members of the opposite sex under any circumstance. They counsel single adults to never go on a date alone, same with teen's, etc. They do cross gender counseling, although there is always a third party witness present during counseling sessions. They just do their best to never leave a man & woman alone together. At first I tried to get with it. I began to feel like a hypocrite though because... I didn't make sure I was never alone with a store, so I wouldn't steal something, or make sure I took somebody with me to a movie so I didn't sneak into another theatre to see the movie again or see another one. I don't make sure there's a passenger so I don't speed or run a red light. Sounded too much like sin consciousness and bondage to me. I think it still came back to me and what I will, or will not allow in my life. Whereas I understand their thinking (which I see [overly simplified] as, if you avoid tempting situations, you won't sin), I honestly was a little offended when I came in once to meet with the senior pastor's wife on a personal matter and when I stepped into the room there was a third party there who wasn't even there to contribute - just witness. I couldn't help but feel untrusted and was uncomfortable with speaking my personal beezwax in front of some 'person' whom I did not choose as a confidant. Then I felt a trust issue regarding the person, whom I had no personal knowledge of their trustWORTHYness. There is a measure of propriety a minister must maintain to that does go above and beyond. There are steps one should take to avoid sin. The problem I have with the concept is that I feel "don't be alone" lowers the bar of self control. Secular professional counselors counsel people alone 'all the time.' Yet ministers who claim to have God almighty on their side THEY gotta have a witness or they "don't go there." Self control, or the lack thereof, is a disqualifying prequisite to Christian ministry in God's eyes. It IS in the book they teach from, is it not? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the pulpit. I'm not speaking against Billy Graham or his ministry. I don't necessarily have a problem with taking extra steps to ensure things don't 'go astray.' BUT. I believe CircleGame's comment is way-legit. There is a percentage of people who will feel precisely like that. How can you help but feel THEY don't trust YOU when they are the one with the position and ministry to lose. Not that I DO have a major problem with it. I really don't think I'd have a problem with it at all if they took similar extra steps across the board. I don't like the focus it puts on sex. The six horniest years of my life were the 4 I spent in the way corps and two years as a W.O.W.! Making it a POLICY to maintain your same marital status through the program, in practice, made people think MORE about being married than they otherwise, might. Overall I think it did more harm than good. What extra steps do they take to ensure people don't steal at the mall or cheat, or fall to various other temptations? ... but we can't leave you alone w/sexual temptation??? If ministers hooked themselves up to a polygraph and projected the printout on a big screen (or even a little one) as they taught the "ineffable greatness of God's word," I think people could really get with that! (We have the technology.... :)--> ) OR. If they, as non profit organizations, confident that God will meet their needs in every way, sent personal letters to everyone in their congregations who have any type of financial need. If the letter said something to the effect of, "God has blessed the ministry that serves you life with material abundance. We, your ministry staff are aware thay you may be in need of some financial help. Please prayerfully consider your actual need which is beyond your current means to supply and send us a number. We will prayerfully consider every request and spend every penny of this abundance to help you, our congregation, because we realize that we have an adversary who, at times effects the lives of God's people, negatively." It is very clear in Acts that a BIG piece of the rapid grown in the first century church was: When we see ministers and ministries taking the same level of "extra steps" to eliminate need among their own congregations as they do to eliminate extra-marital sex... THEN we'll see truly GREAT, sign, miracle & wonder producing ministries. Billy Graham, by today's standards is one of the greatest ministers & his minstry is among the most wonderful. I believe God gets the most he can from people who say they love him and want to minister. Its a good thing He's patient with us all.

CULT: among the definitions of cult includes great devotion to a person, idea, or thing.... Not to list all of the definitions from my dictionary, but suffice it to say that by the denotative use of the word twi definitely IS a cult. I think Garth was speaking to the negative connotation the word cult carries. In our society at large the work cult is 'a four letter word' just shy of curse word status. People (some) WILL judge you and think differently of you should you reveal involvement in a cult; past or present. Its a shame because denotatively 'everybody' is in one sort of cult or another. Oprah's book club, missionaries, Boys & Girls Scouts, my karate class - - ALL cults. "Everybody" is afraid of religious cults, they do carry a negative, as in dangerous, connotation. As a matter of perspective, nothing, no not any of the worst things twi did or does is new to the world of religion. The same things are happening even as we speak in churches all aver this country. It is definitely, IMO, a way brain attack to give twi, especially in their current state 'high' status. I'm not saying this to diminish any suffering any have recieved at the hand of twi in any way, shape, or form. All their talk of superlatives... Hogwash. I believe a person should do everything in their power to rid themselves of any semblance of waybrain. Be as 'normal' as you can be. I'm thinking that giving too much credence to, and overly acknowledging "waybrain thinking" as "waybrain thinking" is in itself WAYBRAIN. I've always thought, since leaving twi that the best way to break the pattern and "STOP the madness," if you will, is to ignore it. I'm out, I'm away, why look back? I've moved on in my life. Looking back can be a sign of a desire to connect to it and can also maintain connections a person may not wish to have. Don't get me wrong. I'm saying ignore it in this sense: I've been known to say of each of the women I was once married to, "She's such a liar, I wouldn't believe her if she told me my name was HCW!" In other words, I just don't give her a place in my mind. As it applies to waybrain, I think like this; any "waybrain" logic that even crosses my consciousness, I don't acknowledge it as "waybrain" I acknowledge it as yet another crazy thought that may have crossed my mind... ad dispose of it accordingly. To me, crazy is crazy and disposed of is gone, no matter where it came from. Twi is all about control. I've taken my power back

I am honestly curious. What is a "TWI thought?" What is it about having been 'in' twi that haunts you? Just wondering....

CM, Did you mean "SICK bastards?" It is a real "Twighlight Zone," zone - - zone - - - zone, (insert music here) moment for me every time I learn something about or see something pointed out about TWI-2. The wierdness is how directly antithetical the "evils" are to things once taught in TWI-1. In TWI-1 people's lives were ruined and others effected negatively by trying to adhere to the legalistic concept that "Any two Christians can renew their minds and be sucessfully married." They used to hurt women who were married to jerk christio-nazi types by saying, "Renew your mind dammit, stay with him! SUBMIT!!! If you were a better wife MAYBE he wouldn't be such a jerk to you." Yes, that IS the sound of a steamroller crunching bones and the squishy flattening of human flesh you hear in the background. Now they conspire to say, "Leave the jerk, stay with US, he's possessed anyways." The next step down on the "Evolution of a 'Chrisitian' Ministry Chart."

Come on Oakie man, you know I don't have a problem with you. I know, or at least I know I think you mean well. :P--> And you certainly know I believe you have a right to your position and I appreciate it, even when we disagree. (Which is not to specifically attack your POV on this topic. I'm trying to sidestep those fireworks ) On the Lucifer thing, I agree with the Hebrew to English transliteration as being, "the stars OF God," rather than "THE star, God." (We can probably get a decent discussion on this on the "another BS TWi teaching" thread.) As I read the context there in Isiah 14. it seems to express the idea that Lucifer wants to exalt HIS throne above, like, EVERYTHING. I read it kinda like this: "...you have said in your heart "I WILL: - ascend into heaven, - exalt my throne above the stars of God, - sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north, - ascend above the heights of the clouds, (and therefore...) I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH!" As in every-thing, in every way. Seeing as God already is all of the above, for Lucifer to ascend to that positon he would have to desire to have HIS throne 'above' God's. I think that's a logical conclusion one can draw from simply reading it, not necessarily needing a Bible scholar to confirm. Vp, on the other hand, was wont to take conclusions HE had drawn from HIS ideas and inject them INTO what he read. THEN he twisted the Bible and said, "See right here, THIS says what I think, you can read it for yourself!" Vpw's, "I am right, THEY are wrong." is part of the same 'Luciferesque' thinking I'm talking about. I was sorta paraphrasing 'everything' we know about Lucifer, the whole 'arch adversary, war in heaven/ I wanna run the place' thing moreso than saying that those particular words in that particular verse 'proves' the "above God" thing. Good point for discussion, thanks for bringin' it up.