Mark Clarke

The same can be said for any of TWI's leadership!

Actually, the Ten Commandments were part of the Old Covenant, which was only temporary till Christ. But most of it was restated in the New Covenant, only with an even higher standard. So high in fact, that we can't maintain it by our own ability, we can only maintain it by the power of God and Christ. Our standard is now the words of the Lord Jesus. The goal is to have a right heart, not just right actions, and only God can work that in us. But your point is well taken, that our souls and our bodies need to be reigned into obedience to the Master and to obey the rules in His Kingdom. That's what Paul meant by walking by the spirit, more than "operating all nine all the time!" The smugness of our old Way attitude sickens me when I think of it now.

If I remember correctly, this attitude is what led to the rampant sin and abuse in TWI. We are forgiven for our sins, but that does not guarantee that our sin nature will not lure us into sin again. We will not be without sin until the Lord returns. In the meantime, there needs to be accountability. When a believer sins, it is proper to feel remorse, hopefully leading to repentance. This is not "guilt" that is "just a lie of the world."

How do you mean?

No, it's not another issue. The fact that it was tainted and still served knowingly IS THE POINT. It is the difference between "honest mistakes" on their part, and "deliberate deception." We don't say were "forced" to eat it. But we made the choice based on false information and deception. Now I will say there were some lower level leadership who probably didn't know of the deception, at least as deeply. There were twig leaders and even WOWs who propagated the lies without looking into it. This is how deceptive mind control can be. Not only do the top leaders knowingly serve up the bad fish (to extend this analogy) but they convince others who don't know any better to keep serving it too. That removes them from the guilt, in their minds.

That reminds me of the one about the Irish plumber who, on seeing Niagara Falls for the first time, said, "Sure, I t'ink I can fix that!"

This guy does the whole song perfectly on one solo guitar! It's amazing!

No, I wasn't chained to the seat, nor was the door locked. But there was a fear of leaving involved. I was not told that I would die if I left - it was much more subtle. Since I was told that this was the Truth and that VPW was THE Man of God For Our Time, I was afraid to question things. The few times I did, the response was along the lines of, "you can't understand this, since you're not as mature as us spiritually. You just have to trust us." This is, I think, the crux of the matter - broken trust. Does that make it a "cult"? Depends on your definition. I still have a lot of thinking and habits that were developed during my time in TWI. But then I also have a few mental patterns left over from my Roman Catholic days. The label of "cult" is not as important as, did we trust them, and did they fail to tell us the truth? That's how anyone - even an individual - can engage in "mind control."

Note carefully the lyrics of this song ("Run" by Kutless). It at first seems like a guy talking to a girl who's ignoring him, but you gradually realize it's the Lord talking to us. Why do you run why do you hide oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you. Looking down from above as you watch TV Wondering why, oh you're ignoring me Do you remember, remember when I came to you And you loved me And I'm waiting for you And I'm waiting for you Why do you run why do you hide oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you, to be with you Hey, why do you run why do you hide oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you, to be with you... Whatever happened to the love, the love you had for me When you first came to me? Don't you know that I died, died so I could be with you Forever. And I'm waiting for you And I'm waiting for you Why do you run why do you hide oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you, to be with you Hey, why do you run why do you hid oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you, to be with you... Find a place of solitude, and I'll speak to you As you pray to me Don't you know I'm waiting here, waiting for you to read And hear my words I'm waiting here missing the times, the times we shared Oh, please come to me So, why do you run why do you hide oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you, to be with you Hey, why do you run why do you hide oh don't you know I just, Just want to be with you, to be with you...

There was a class, called "Christian Family and Sex" and when I found out about what The Teacher had been doing with his Students I thought it was the height of hypocrisy for him to have taught it. I agree with George. There was way to much assumption and innuendo regarding that verse about "the way of a man with a maid."

No, that was just a rumor, fueled by "clues" on their albums. If you play "Christ is Coming" backward a voice says, "Mark and avoid him, man!"

Reason #5, but not from TWI. Ironically, I was M&A'd from an offshoot group that previously had openly criticized TWI's practices. The (rotten) apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They got into the same mindset of "we are right and everybody else is wrong" and started quoting scriptures about turning away from those who don't hold the truth. When I pointed out that those scriptures are referring to those who reject Christ and the Gospel, not those fellow Christians who disagree on points of doctrine, I was told I was no longer welcome to fellowship with them. And other church members shunned my wife and me (except for one that openly berated my wife in the middle of a grocery store!) The interesting thing is, those posters above who said THEY M&A'd TWI were actually practicing the correct meaning of "mark and avoid." Rom. 16:17 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." In all these cases, who was it that was causing the divisions and offences - the ones who got kicked out, or the leaders of the corrupt organization?

The most annoying form of this "personality cult" thing was how it affected the music. Since VPW loved Country/Western Music, it was assumed throughout the ministry that it was somehow more "godly" and "spiritual" than rock'n'roll or other types of music. The result was that Joyful Noise and Pressed Down went "country" in their sound. I always got the feeling that at least some of the members weren't really happy with that and would rather have been playing from their hearts. Even Bob Stanley did a few country-tinged songs, which to me sounded extremely forced. Anybody who was involved in Way Productions at the time have any insight or comments on this?

Anybody else remember the old mint and clove tradition for teachers? Every lectern had to have a little dish with cloves and mints. And the mints were to be Life Savers, broken into four pieces. When I once asked why they didn't just used Tic Tacs, it was explained that this was the way Dr. W liked it, so all teachers were to have it.

I love this video! Although he uses some coarse language, he's very funny yet makes some valid points, and sadly he's right about how too many Christians are (as well as Moslems and Jews). This should make us more aware of how we present our message. The page also has comments that were made in response to the video. Some felt that religion itself, or belief in God, was the problem, while others rightly concluded that that was not the point of the video. It's not religion itself but how some people practice it that is bad. Unfortunately, not enough "real Christians" speak up about it. One of the comments even made a point of saying that "no real Christians have anything to say." Another comment responded by saying: ...the reason there are no "real" Christians having anything to say, is that the number of real Christians, who engage in discourse on such subjects, is smaller than the number of hairs on a turtle......A true Christian?? A true Muslim?? A true Jew??? These are constructs, of individual perception, and do not actually, physically, exist in time and space for longer than brief, unquantifiable moments..... Only one "real Christian" posted anything worth while: I'll say though that extreme radicals in each religion are given the most press...hands down...by a landslide...without a doubt... which makes just about every religion look completely bums-up loonytoons. I'll say straight up that those people who hold those "GOD HATES [WHOEVER]" signs speak for no one but themselves and plainly haven't read or remotely understood their Bible. ALL the rest of us agree on that, and yet THEY get all the press and people cite them constantly as the "example" of the Christian, which is nonsense, plain as day. Meanwhile, those that honestly follow the Bible (for real) and contain a good bit of faith, but a good bit of reason as well are generally ignored by the media (and such) and wind up looking at the whole debate and getting horribly frustrated and depressed at the unfairness of it all. Personally I'm a career scientist and a Christian... and generally people--when they hear it--go "What? You must be a lousy Christian/scientist!" (you can pick which) Ridiculous! Not all of us have given the matter no thought. See C.S.Lewis, etc. In rhyme with what has been commented here already, my "beef" is not with those who disapprove of my religious beliefs. My beef is with those who deliberately (or ignorantly) LIE about it in order to discredit it in a [conscious or unconscious] attempt to justify their philosophy. I'm not talking about revealing charlatans; that's fine. I'm not talking about revealing cults; that's fine. I'm talking about accusing a religion of being false or wrong based on only those charlatans and cults. One more comment that I feel like mentioning: An atheist will cite one religion after another for inciting war after war... and I will not argue with that. I will argue that the religious/spiritual belief system that a person chooses to believe is the single most important decision of his/her life. This is a decision that defines the character of a person and the purpose of his/her entire life. Naturally dissent here causes problems. Attempting to erase this dissent by erasing religion is identical to attempting to erase racial discrimination problems by eliminating all but one race... I don't think I need to say more about that... This man's comments were well thought out and well articulated. He is a great example of how we should respond to "religion bashing" that is so common these days. And (getting back to the thread's topic) both the video and his response are excellent examples of "attacking" ideas and attitudes, rather than just attacking the people and being insulting but not contibuting anything constructive.

Amen! I have been accused of "attacking those that cannot defend themselves" simply because I wrote on my website about doctrines I was taught that I now believe to be wrong. See my "Feedback page": http://www.godskingdomfirst.net/Feedback.htm

Those sound more like medical conditions than food!

No, what's on second!

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

Don't eat with your hands, son, use your entrenching tool!

After wandering around the Forest all morning, Piglet and Christopher Robin came to a spot they were sure they'd been in before. They were experiencing Deja Pooh.

No anchovies? You've got the wrong man. I spell my name...Danger!

He's been up for a week... but he's COMING DOWN! He's no fun... he fell right over!

I'm with you! Why are people so interested in him or Paris Hilton or Brittney Spears or whoever the messed-up-celebrity-of-the-week is? Has our culture become that shallow?

In the Next World, You're On Your Own. Give Me Immortality or Give Me Death.