Mark Clarke

WordWolf, I agree with you about that commas thing. It wasn't that they had been saying "Paul, do the will of the Lord" and then quit saying it. The phrase in the text is not "do the will of the Lord" but "the will of the Lord be done." When they quit trying to persuade Paul, they said "the will of the Lord be done" which is a common way of expressing the desire. It's in the sense of, "whatever happens, may the Lord's will be done." And regardless of whether God had wanted Paul to go to Jerusalem or not to begin with, in the long run His will ended up being done, when Paul went before Caesar, and wrote his epistles from prison, etc. God is not limited by our believing, as TWI taught.

I had heard that TJ stood for "Tick Junior" since he was the son of the original Tick (costar of Christian Family and Sex). I also heard that the whole raising and training of German Shorthairs was just because VP liked them.

I posted some info about a church in Peculiar, in the Church Shopping thread over in the Open section.

I don't know how far Peculiar is from you (it doesn't look very far on the map). There is a church there called Countryside Bible Church, that is part of the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith. Like TWI, they don't believe in the Trinity or that the dead are alive in heaven. Unlike TWI they believe that the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is the central message of Jesus. And they have a more "normal church" feel. I went to their college in Atlanta for a couple of semesters (till I ran out of money) and one of the people there was from that area. I've also talked with another one on line; she is the moderator for http://groups.msn.com/COGsAbrahamicFaithAroundtheWorld. They are really nice people. If you're interested, here is their info: Countryside Bible Church 217 South State Route J, Peculiar, Missouri (816) 779-4445 http://www.countrysidebiblechurch.org/

The only "good thing" their posts did was remind me of the twisted, heartless mentality that was so prevalent in TWI, and make me thankful to be out.

Have you tried studying the Bible on your own? There are many resources available online that we never had in TWI. You can examine various viewpoints and make up your own mind what you believe, in the comfort of your own home. And you can interact with others online as well, not only here at GSC but elsewhere too.

year2027, While I agree that we should not hate homosexuals, or any other type of sinner, I must disagree with your idea that there is only one sin against God. Gen. 39:9 refers to someone sinning against God, and there are several references to sinning against "The LORD" (i.e., YHVH, Jehovah, Yahweh, however you choose to say it). I don't think the Bible makes a distinction between sins against God and sins agaisnt nature. However, I heartily agree with you that we are to love people, even if we don't like what they do. We all sin, and we should hate sin just as God does, but He loves the sinner, as we should do so as well.

Dot, I don't know that I would say nothing good came from going to Jerusalem. It was as a result of the events there that Paul went to Rome and appealed to Caesar. Acts 27:24 seems to say that it was God's will that he go before Caesar: "Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee." Also, VPW said that after Jerusalem, Paul never won anybody to the Lord, the closest he got being the king's saying "Almost thou persuadest me." But there is no basis for thinking that, since he spoke the Word to everybody he met, continued to preach for two years while under house arrest, "no man hindering him" (Acts 28:30-31), and wrote several epistles from prison. I think The Way's take on this was based on their belief that since "God is light and in Him is no darkness" that everything is supposed to go well, and if it doesn't it's your own fault. But there are many instances in the Bible where God allowed bad things to happen, but turned them around to work for good. In Phil. 1:12, Paul specifically says, "But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel."

Oldiesman and White Dove have both made the point that the character of the person speaking truth from the Bible does not negate that truth. This is true. As they have said, "truth is truth no matter who speaks it." The point of discussion is not whether or not the Word that VPW preached (or wrote) was true (although much of what he said was doctrinally wrong, but that has been handled in other threads). The point of discussion in this thread is the character of the so-called "Man of God" and specifically how it relates to the experiences of Kris Skedgell. Now I don't share Geo's skepticism about the integrity of the Bible, so I wouldn't say that you (or we) only believe the Bible because someone told you to. But here's another point to consider. The entire Christian world believes in Jesus Christ based on the words of eyewitnesses (skeptics who doubt the veracity of the Gospels notwithstanding). We cannot "prove" that those events took place. We accept the words of the eyewitnesses because they have proven to be reliable, even going to their death rather than denying what they have seen. For that matter, neither can we "prove" that any historical events took place. We can't even "prove" with 100% certainty that current events take place, but base our acceptance on the reliability of eyewitnesses. If you want to take it further, in philosophy and metaphysics you can't even "prove" absolutely that you exist. The point is that even in a court of law, "proof" only needs to be "beyond reasonable doubt." Kristen's testimony (at least the one incident that she read in the excerpt) cannot be "proven" since only two people were there and one of them is dead. But we're talking "reasonable doubt." Even if VP were alive and he denied that Kristen's testimony was true, we would then have to decide who was the more reliable witness. Her testimony jives with that of many other witnesses who have had similar experiences, while VP has in many cases been proven to be a liar. On what do you base your decision to have a "reasonable doubt" that the event was not as Kris described it? Remember, we are talking about the character of the man in question, not whether the Bible he taught was true.

I don't remember that one!

"It's not a crime to be a lime!"

You need to go back and read what I did and did not say you are confused..... I did and I quoted it in my post which you included in your post. You also said the same thing in a later post. If I am confused, then what is it you are saying? Did you not state several times that you didn't believe Kristen's account to be truthful? Let's forget the crap about the blue book and all the other diversions and get back to the point of the thread. Don'tWorryBeHappy asked you more than once for your opinion of Kristen's account and the interview. The only thing you have said about it is that you think it was not true. If that is not what you meant to say then please clarify. And if it is what you said, please explain why you believe it to be false.

I got so busy posting in "About the Way" I almost missed this. (It's not midnight yet on the west coast!) Happy birthday, old friend!

I'm amazed that she wouldn't pursue a career in music somehow, at least teaching if not performing.

I was fortunate in one way, because in my area, Rhode Island at the time, nearly everyone including the leadership recognized the crap going on at HQ and were told all about it. Many of us subscribed to Geer's publication, Future Considerations, which published POP in installments. At the time we thought he was a prophet. It wasn't until later we found out that Geer was no better than LCM and we pretty much did our own thing locally after that. What I don't understand is why would Geer work to destroy VP's legacy if he was a devoted follower of his?

Exactly what you were TAUGHT to think. Thank God you can think for yourself now!

First you seem to think I swallow every thing written on the internet as truth ........I don't! Now that that is clear ,her opinion and that is what it is without factual evidence is hers to share she is free to do so. I'm free not to accept it on her word. or to accept parts or all. Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story. But had there been some if it indeed lined up with what scripture says then it would then in fact be truth, regardless of what actions VP may have taken. The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not. But I suppose you should know that, at least once you did...... So thats how I see em I have no comment on undocumentable stories I think I have made that pretty clear before. I can however discuss sections of the blue book as someone brought up because it contains scripture and it can be examined to be found true or not. By the way for the record I see both cases, but the ones that concur with scripture are still none the less truth, even if VP was nailing spikes in Jesus's hands as he was saying them. Actions do not negate the scripture. Judas spoke truth at times he also betrayed Jesus two different things. one does not negate the other. We're not talking about opinions here, we're talking about events that happened. She was there; they happened to her. Are you seriously suggesting that she lied about what that monster did to her? And why? Just because some things in his Blue Book fit with Scripture? As Doojable pointed out, a great deal of what was in that book does not line up with Scripture, and even the stuff that makes a correct Biblical statement was grossly misused. The idea of "we are complete in him" is correct in and of itself, but was directly related, in the mind of VP and many of his followers, to the mindset of "we are above the law" and "it doesn't matter what we do as long as we're saved." It was exactly that kind of misuse of God's Word that allowed so many of his followers to be in denial. If you're not one of them, great. But on what basis so you suggest Kristen was lying, when so many of VP's words have been PROVEN to be lies?

Why didn't the skeleton cross the road? He didn't have the guts!

Maybe we should start calling it BMI instead of twi? That was before the Passing Of Our Patriarch (P.O.O.P.)!

I guess for me, understanding how he became that way would help me to deal with that "mind funk" because it puts at least a little bit of sense to what is otherwise totally senseless. Also, for me to let go of the crap that he did and move on, I need to forgive as Jesus commanded me to, remembering that God will do the judging ultimately. Not condone what he did, mind you, but forgive to the end that I can let go of it and not let it control me any more. I find that easier to do if I have some idea how he became such a vile monster. But maybe that's just me. I do tend to analyze things too much. I'm trying to analyze why I do that!

You're right. I noticed the dates, but completely missed the fact that one was TIME and one was LIFE. I guess I didn't LOOK. (Anybody remember that one?) :D

"Yard Dog" was a name that Bob Stanley used to go by before he got involved with The Way. Is that what you're thinking of? If I remember correctly he did his first tape independently, but then HQ exerted more control over him and put out a tape that sounded like a Joyful Noise clone. His later stuff with Acts 29 was more youth oriented rock though.

The article in the first post on this thread was evidently a follow-up. The date of it was Sept. 6, '71, but the well-known piece called "The Groovy Christians of Rye, NY" was in the May 14, '71 issue, with Carol Burnett on the cover, which JustSayNo posted. That was the one that mentioned Kris Skedgell among others.

I never heard that story. I remember we were all told that he was pressured to resign because he stirred up trouble when he went to India, and supposedly made the denomination look bad. (I think that version is even in The Way Living In Love, if I remember correctly. Just out of curiosity, how did you find out about this?

But isn't that what TWI really stands for? -- Teaching While Intoxicated ?!!