Mark Clarke

I actually heard VP give this explanation in a live teaching, even using the word "beast" as the example. Coincidence! (Not!)

I agree. And sadly, this snobbery still exists in many of the offshoot groups. I wish they would take a good look at the Bible and see what baptism is really all about. In TWI, we had no idea what the point of it was, so we just belittled it and wrote it off as irrelevant "works."

First of all, Ephesians 4:4-6, to which you refer, is not talking about different forms of baptism, and whether or not there is more than one. It is talking about unity, saying that we all have one and the same Lord, the same spirit, the same faith, the same baptism, the same God and Father. Secondly, there is no dichotomy between water baptism and spirit baptism in the Bible. Water baptism is not called carnal. I'm not saying that it is a work by which you get saved. It is something that we are commanded by our Lord to do, to publicly demonstrate our faith. It was done all throughout the book of Acts. Only Jesus baptizes with holy spirit, but the disciples also baptized new converts, and it was in water, in the name of Jesus Christ. They were doing so in obedience to their Lord's instructions. How about faith AND works? James says that works show our faith, and Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith UNTO good works. TWI taught (at least by their example, if not doctrinally) that our works are irrelevant. I don't believe that. Also, I'm not suggesting that baptism is instead of helping our neighbor. Jesus said we should do that too. But baptism isn't just "my" way of demonstrating my convictions. Jesus commanded it, so we should obey him. I agree. But baptism was not part of the Law of Moses. As I said, I don't believe it is a work to earn our salvation. It is one of the things we are told to do BECAUSE of our salvation.

We can correctly identify pizza because we (most of us) have had verifiable previous experiences sampling pizza. Besides, if there are counterfeits, some criteria must be used to tell them from the real thing. I'm not doubting your experiences, I'm just leary of "feelings" without some kind of checks and balances. I thought I felt the right stuff when I was in TWI too.

I used to be Irish Catholic:

GOT IT!!!! The Way was a con and a scam With leaders who knew ‘twas a sham They learned from Doc Veepee To think with their peepee But they didn’t know Greek worth a damn!

What did it feel like? And how did you know it was the Lord? Do you believe feelings can be counterfeit as well? Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really am wondering about how far we can trust "feelings."

Here's one I wrote for my WOW brother, many moons ago. (He'd been in the Air Force, and really LOVED peanut butter!) I can't believe I still remember it. An airplane mechanic named Bob Had to do an emergency job He pasted a rudder With smooth peanut butter And used chunky to fix a loose knob (I'm still working on one about TWI.)

There was one that I never did hear the joke for: No soap, radio! I think the joke was that there really was no joke, but I'm not sure if there was anything more to it.

He also taught that when the apostles baptized in water in the book of Acts, it was because they didn't yet understand that it was replaced. And specifically Peter was so excited about the Gentiles being involved for the first time, that he "forgot" they weren't supposed to be baptizing with water anymore, but remembered before it was carried out. Really! That's what was taught, and what many TWI offshoots still teach. (There are also some non-TWI groups that teach similar things, but they are not as common.) I have written about this in detail on my website, as well as an even more detailed study that you can download if you want. http://godskingdomfirst.org/Baptism.htm

OKAY KNOCK KNOCK I can't believe you fell for that!

The definition did say there is a strict pattern to the rhythm. A lot of people get it wrong. But two of my favorites derive their humor from being wrong! There once was a poet named Stan Whose verses never would scan When told this was so He said yes I know But it's probably because I always try to stick as many syllables in the last line as I possibly can. There once was a young girl named Jill Who ran up and down a steep hill When someone inquired Say, don't you get tired? She said, "Na!" And another favorite from high school that Doojable will remember: An amoeba named Sam and his brother Were having a drink with each other In the midst of their quaffing They split themselves laughing And now each of them is a mother As far as writing some about the Way, I'll have to work on that.

Just curious, and not being a smart aleck about it. But how do you know it was spiritual, or supernatural, as opposed to just very emotional? I've been duped by emotional stuff, so I'm very cautious.

"Those are the heavy seven. Those are the ones that will infect your soul, curve your spine, and keep the country from winning the war!" I loved his older stuff (he sounded very angry and bitter in his later years). Still, his command of the English language was superb! He always made me laugh no matter how many times I heard the same routines. He will definitely be missed.

Studies like that have actually been done, under scientific circumstances. It was concluded that while in some instances it sounded like language, it didn't have the necessary characteristics to be actual language. Here is a quote from one writing on it: Studies now completed or in progress have found no evidence that this phenomenon has either the form or the structure of human speech. Robert Anderson, who takes seriously though not uncritically these Pentecostal claims, cites several studies where tape recordings of glossolalia have been analyzed by linguists who found no resemblance to traditional human lan­guage in them. The charismatic John Sherrill played forty different sam­ples of tongue-speech to a group of linguists in New York City. Although they recognized language-like patterns, they were agreed that none of the tapes contained any of the languages with which they were familiar. Linguist William J. Samarin concludes that, in the hundreds of examples he studied, all lacked several essential elements of languages: vocabulary, grammar, syntax, etc. As a result of his study, he defined glossolalia as "a meaningless but phonologically structured human utter­ance believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no system­atic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead." The complete article can be seen here. Another interesting one can be found here. However, I have heard enough accounts that I would not totally write off the possibility that at least a few instances are genuine. But they are very few and far between. I agree with Brushstroke's take on it. It was not meant to be "THE" gift or sign that identified you as a genuine Christian, nor was it considered as important as most Pentecostals make it today (including TWI and ex's). Paul makes it clear in I Cor. 12 that NOT everyone speaks in tongues (VP's mangling of that passage notwithstanding). And it certainly is not "the only way to know for sure if you're saved," as we were taught.

Ouch!

Why did the chicken cross the playground? To get to the other slide.

I like this idea! It's easier and more fun than remembering the whole joke! Dew or dew not... there is no dry. A super-calloused, fragile mystic, plagued with halitosis. All day long it was, hit the ball and drag Harry, hit the ball and drag harry. That's what he does. Eats, shoots, and leaves. You are one mean drunk, Superman! We have to be quiet. They think they're the only ones here! Shoot the dog! Shoot the dog! How he got in my pajamas I'll never know. He had a hat!! God forbid I should have food in my mouth if my son tries to call me. See, I told you Paul McCartney was in another band before Wings!

I never thought I'd agree with Satan about something! :lol:

I've had two done. The second was like his experience - I slept through it. For the first one, unfortunately, I wasn't given that option. It was like the worst gas pain I ever experienced, and that was with whatever they gave me so I wouldn't feel it. When I had the second one done and found out they can put you out for it, I wanted to go back to the doctors that did the first one and shove something up THEIRS. But I got over it.

FooledagainII, Isn't it amazing how far off track a thread can get? Reading back over it, there were two that did sort of mention the second part of your question. Nobody I know of ever heard her express an opinion about what went on, or be accused of anything. I think because of her status and position she may have made a point to stay out of anything that could get messy. Just as well, too. I'd rather have heard her sing than express her opinion. Kind of like musicians in the world - I hate it when they get political. Alice Cooper in an interview said something to the effect that politicians don't tell him how to make music, so he won't try to tell them how to do their job.

Why would you want them? You'd be better off studying on your own. VP and the other teachers of the U of L were not the theologians they pretended to be. There are much better resources available for free on line.

There are Scriptures to back it up. Jesus warned us about false prophets, and wolves in sheeps clothing. He also gave us the example of loving one another, taught us that we can tell the false teachers from the true by their fruits, and many other things. But we rarely read Jesus' words because they "weren't addressed to us" - we were taught that most of what he said was addressed to Israel. The greatest thing that Jesus spoke of was that there is a time coming when God is going to make things right, and everything wrong with the world will be fixed. This isn't just for Israel, it's for all of us, and it's good news! Also God is a God of all comfort: II Cor. 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.

I posted this in another thread, but it applies here even more: Gamaliel said it best, in Acts 5, "If this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought."

Apparently Geer and Martindale each thought the other was tearing down VP's legacy. In reality, I think it self-destructed. Gamaliel said it best, in Acts 5, "If this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought."