Mark Clarke

Rene Descartes was in a bar, and it was almost closing. The bartender asked him if he'll have another drink. "I think not," said Descartes, and promptly disappeared.

My mother-in-law's name is Bertha, so any and all "Big Bertha" jokes have a special place in my heart.

I don't think they were planning it that way. They were trained by VPW and like so many other Corps grads, they don't know how to run a ministry any other way. The Corps never had any "real" training in Christian leadership, but many of them would not be able to admit it to themselves (understandably). Yet those few that could humble themselves have grown to varying degrees. That's why it is so disappointing to see JAL going back to lauding VPW. Either he is totally blind to the problems (doctrinal as well as practical) or he is not being honest. I don't care which; either one is sad.

And God forbid we should suggest that Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard were wrong in the first place! In fact, the "scholarship" of that day, the Scribes, were condemned by Jesus as being hypocrites. Jesus taught the heart of the Law, which was serving God and people out of a true heart of love rather than the letter of the Law. But we rarely, if ever, saw that because we rarely read the Gospels, since they "weren't addressed to us." To clarify, the "Word" that was in their hearts was the Word that their Lord Jesus spoke to them. His words were recited and repeated among them so as not to forget them. And a bit later Paul elaborated on some things, by revelation from Jesus, and he wrote them in letters which circulated in the first century. But it did not contradict or set aside what Jesus had taught. Interestingly enough, we always talked about "The Word, The Word, The Word!" as if it were a synonym for the Bible. But we didn't even have that right. The Bible rarely if ever refers to itself as "The Word." It calls itself "The Scriptures." When it speaks of "The Word" it is referring specifically to the message that was communicated verbally, and in the person of Jesus, as well as the written Scriptures. That overall message is about God's plan to put the world right and have His Son rule a restored earth. This was Jesus' primary message, so if anyone is "teaching the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century" it's people who are getting back to the Gospel of the Kingdom. And there are many different groups as well as individuals who are doing so. It's not limited to one group led by a charismatic leader who got special revelation. Well put! We always read that verse (Rom. 15:4) as if it said that what was written aforetime was "for our learning ONLY" but it doesn't say that. The Greek word for "learning" there is didaskalia which means "doctrine" or right believing. It is the same word that is translated "doctrine" in II Tim. 3:16 (all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness..."). There is nothing in this verse that says the Old Testament or Gospels are not addressed to us. In a similar way we were told that Jesus was a only a minister to the Jews, by quoting Rom. 15:8, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers..." But it doesn't say he was ONLY a minister to the circumcision. As VP liked to chant, "Why O why don't they read the next verse?" Verse 9 reads, "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name." The whole "addressed to a different administration" angle was (and still is) a devilish lie to separate Jesus from his words which we must believe and live by. I am somewhat ashamed that I didn't see that all those years. The Old Testament is vital in understanding the New, though. The major themes of the whole Bible are laid out in the OT as a foundation. It is precisely because people are not as familiar with the OT that they misunderstand the NT. But let's not give them the satisfaction of being "the number one cult in America" again. I remember we used to gloat over it as if it were an honor. TWI was one of many cults that used those same practices. They were ALL corrupt. I'd say that's a good summary. Actually, I don't think he was saying that. He was saying that Jesus' question would focus on what we DID with whatever we knew. That's probably closer to the truth, but sadly many ex-Way spinoffs are still following the training of their teacher. Like him, they teach one thing but don't practice it themselves. But this is nothing new. The Pharisees did the same thing and Jesus called them hypocrites. I have great respect for JAL and his communication skills. I pray that he can humble himself to see where TWI and CES/STFI fall short. I know from experience that it isn't easy to do, after all those years of feeling smug because "WE ARE RIGHT!" Sometimes I think God may have allowed me to go through that period and then come to the realization of how wrong they were (and how wrong I was) in order to keep me humble. I don't know everything, but I am getting to know Him who does.

T-bone, that joke was a bomb!

I think JAL and any and all former TWI leaders need to look more closely at the doctrines that were taught. Whether or not the evil that was practiced in TWI was directly related to the wrong doctrine is a point that has been debated and argued here at GS. What I'd like to point out is that there was more wrong doctrine than even JAL describes. Just as Martin Luther's theses and the rest of the Protestant Reformation didn't go far enough in refuting Roman Catholic doctrine, so CES/STFI didn't go far enough in correcting the doctrinal errors taught in PFAL. To me, the biggest doctrinal problem in JAL's letter is the desperate clinging to Bullinger and his ultra-dispensationalism. If the Four Gosples were not addressed to us, then why were they written? If the things Jesus said were addressed to a "former administration" and expressed things that were to be changed within a few months, why were the four Gospels written AFTER the Epistles? And why did Jesus say that the holy spirit "...shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." The worst thing about dispensationalism is that it separates Jesus from his words, which he said are spirit and life, and are the key to life in the age to come. JAL said in his letter, "It is only in the Church Epistles that a Christian finds his true identity “in Christ,” as well as his true Hope." This is a most dangerous position. I believe it is also the root of beliefs such as "once I'm born again I have spirit and it doesn't matter what I do in the flesh." As for TWI being the only place where the Word was taught accurately since the first century, JAL and anybody else who still believes this should familiarize themselves with church history, especially of the 19th and early 20th century. There were great movements that brought back many to the important message of Christ's Kingdom on earth, the sleep of the dead, and even the error of the Trinity. All long before VPW ever preached to his first tree. Some here have talked about how they'd rather have people practice God's love even if they taught wrong doctrine. I think God is interested in both speaking the truth and living love (speaking the truth in love, as Eph. 4:15 says). We shouldn't have to choose. But it's not about what group has "the right stuff" - it's about what IS the right stuff, doctrinally and practically. And if you find it where you are, you're fortunate and blessed. This whole "I am of VP, and I am of JAL, I am of TWI, and I am of CES, etc." is no different from the carnal divisions that Paul was talking about in I Cor. 1. But Jesus said we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. But remember he also said that HE is the truth, not any teacher or organization. If there was a smattering of truth I learned from TWI, so what? The important thing is what is the truth, not where did I learn it, or what organization teaches it now.

That should be "comic" stream. We are pursuing a state of comic consciousness. :P :D :lol:

Justloafing and Eyesopen, Are they good memories or bad? Do you find it painful to read? I have been hesitating about whether to read it for fear that it might be too painful. I know I was emotionally drained just from the interviews here.

Indeed a very powerful performance. When I posted it here sometime last year, I made the comment that this is what Athletes of the Spirit SHOULD have been. Emphasis on Jesus, rather than the Minister and his Wonderful Powers.

I have to admit, I had to look that one up. But I like it! Of course, STFI/STFU would claim that they Wrote The F***ing Manual, which would be abbreviated as WTF? Manual.

I LOVE IT!!!

Of course you know CES is now STFI (Spirit and Truth Fellowship International). They should expand their vision, though, and call it Spirit and Truth Fellowship Universal. That way their initials would communicate better - STFU!

I'd almost forgotten about that epitaph. Perhaps it should read, "We wish he were the man he claimed to be."

Beautiful! Fits like a hand in a glove!

This quote brought to you by DAM - Mothers Against Dyslexia.

CLEAN VERSION OF ROTTIE'S LAST ONE: Knock Knock! Who's there? Gladiator. Gladiator who? The dragon who devoured the princess was Gladiator!

OMG!!! I hadn't heard that one! Is there a thread or a link around here that deals with that? As for "criticizing the dead" -- If his followers didn't keep denying the truth and lauding him to people who don't know any better, then it wouldn't be necessary to keep talking about it. But like GrouchoMarxJr, each new revelation about him sickens me even more.

They also had no confirmation per se, but kids raised in TWI couldn't take the PFAL class until they were around 11 or 12, so it was often treated as a similar "coming of age" rite. And as for Holy Orders, there's a whole thread about how ordination was handled in TWI.

Yup, that's him! He appeared in a number of other movies besides the Stooges shorts, including a few by A & C.

That’s nothing. You should see how he makes doughnuts! I don’t know, I never looked. If she dies, she dies! Aargh! It’s drivin’ me nuts! My brothers are fine, but I quit drinking. Why, I'm decomposing, of course. I know, I was talking to the duck. Never mind that, just bring the laundry. Why would anyone name a drink Bob? Maybe I should have said “DiMaggio?”

A dyslexic walks into a bra....

The doctor says, "I'm afraid your disease is incurable. I give you about ten." The guy says, "Ten? Ten what? Ten years? Ten months? Ten days?" The doctor replies, "...nine...eight...seven..."

I love that song! I first heard it when the Victors did it.

Sounds like the same logic that says 3 x 1 = 1 I love the line - "Didn't you go to school, stupid?" "Yeah and I came out the same way!"

If all men are liars, how can you believe anything he said, including the "word" that he taught? It's like the old riddle - Everything A says is a lie... so if A says B is lying.... it gets silly if you try to take it literally. When the Bible says "all men are liars" it obviously doesn't mean EVERYTHING that anyone says is lie. VP himself taught about the difference between "all without exception" and "all with distinction." But when a person puts himself in front of people and claims to be a "man of God" then it is not unreasonable to expect counselling when you go to him for help.