Mark Clarke

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

That's probably the safest place to be when the food fight starts! :D

And many of us who have survived TWI managed to maintain a relationship with God in spite of the dire surroundings. That's an example of how the leaders were not Josephs. But wouldn't you say the people who were abused, tricked, and otherwise hurt were like Joseph at least in the sense that they seemed to be the victim but ended up on top because of God working? He did not "willingly" give over control, but he was cheated, taken advantage of, captured, and later falsely accused by Potiphar's wife. I can see a number of parallels between Joseph's situation and that of anyone who is mistreated but comes out on top. That's how I was looking at it too.

Happy birthday, Raf! (And I like pineapple pizza too. Sorry, T-bone and Doojable! :P )

Contrary to what we were taught in TWI, possession does not necessarily mean that a demon is "inhabiting" you. As I pointed out above, the phrase "possessed with a devil" in KJV is simply the word daimonizomai, which is where the word "demonized" comes from. It can mean "influenced" or "affected" by a demon as much as (or more than) "totally controlled." This sleep disorder could be affected by demons manipulating things that cause it, OR it could be caused by something psychological or physiological. I don't think there is a sharp dividing line between what is "physical" and what is "spiritual." The important thing is that God, through Christ, provides the solution, whether it be natural or supernatural.

I'd like to hear about how you did that; maybe in another thread. It was "taught," just not practiced.

Yes, I remember hearing that long before the evils were widely known. Early '70s sounds about right. That's when a lot of hippies who were doing drugs got involved. Sure. Just like people who were looking for God have sometimes been "blessed" by people in the Roman Catholic Church or other "mainstream" religions. God has used many things that were meant by people for evil to bring about his ultimate good. Joseph being sold into Egypt comes to mind. I'd say people that were helped were getting it from God more than from another man or ministry.

It could be that the psychological and physiological terminology are simply scientific ways of describing whatever was happening in your brain, regardless of whether it was caused by something "natural" or "supernatural." Jesus allowed for the possibility of both. Matt 4:24 - And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Notice it mentions sick people "with divers diseases and torments" AND "those which were possessed with devils [daimonizomai]." Then it mentions "those which were lunatick" AND "those that had the palsy." Jesus recognized that some of these things were caused by demons and some were not. But the bottom line was, he healed them all. It doesn't so much matter what it was, as much as the fact that Jesus healed you.

What kept those people from dying was God and His Word. Whatever little truth VPW or other Way teachers might have had, mixed with the crap, was enough to give people something to hold onto, not because of what VP taught but IN SPITE OF it. Fortunately God does not limit Himself to only working in those who have had The Class.

I remember quite a few Wayfers saying they were uncomfortable with devil's food cake. (Saying it, not eating it!)

Good point. Some have suggested that he chose to adopt viewpoints and doctrines that were most likely to be controversial. I read that on one of the other threads recently. I hadn''t known about it before that. I wonder how his daughters feel about that now? Only if you count "degree mill" doctorates. I've read about Pike's Peak Seminary.

Jeff, Even though VPW plagiarized a lot of other people's stuff, we still have to consider, were the people he stole from right in the first place? What I've had to do is reevaluate everything by reading and studying other viewpoints and weighing the evidence. But it took "scrapping" PFAL and starting from scratch, because the whole structure of the class was flawed. I had to get in the habit of reading the Bible as if I'd never took any classes, which isn't always easy. But it's necessary because so much of our "PFAL Peripheral Vision" can color our perception and block our understanding of simple things. When I re-encountered certain things I had first learned from PFAL (e.g., salavation by grace, the trinity stuff, and the state of the dead) it was a "bonus" but they were comparatively few. As some one once put it, the important thing is not "who has the truth" but "what IS the truth."

As in Shagrat, Meshag, and Tobedwego?

It was Hebrews 1:13-14. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? It's certainly a stretch to interpret this as meaning that they no longer ministered to us after we were born again.

I wasn't called "possessed" but one leader said she recognized spiritual influence, when I was going through a bout of depression. This is actually more accurate, since the phrase "possessed with a devil" in KJV is the translation of one word in Greek: daimonizomai (from which other Christians outside TWI get the word "demonized"). It doesn't necessarily mean completely controlled or taken over, as we often used "possessed" to mean. It can mean strongly influenced or affected by demons too. Also, I agree that not all cases of illness, physical or mental, are caused by a demon, though some are. The gospels make a distinction in a couple of places between those who were sick and those who were possessed, when they were brought to Jesus. BTW, I noticed most of the posters are using the old TWI term "devil spirits." That whole thing W@lt3r C#mm!ns taught in the DWA class about not liking the word "demon" and preferring the term "devil spirits" was not really accurate. He said "demon" sounded too much like "cute little guys with pitchforks" or something like that, and that daimon was a Greek word, so we should "either speak English or speak Greek." But "demon" is a perfectly good English word, even though it was derived from the Greek word. And it's a better translation. The KJV uses "devil" to translate daimon or daimonion a few times, and other times refers to "unclean spirits." (This is in addition to the places where the word daimonizomai is translated "possessed with a devil.") But it doesn't use the phrase "devil spirits" anywhere. And that's just KJV. Most of the more modern translations use the word "demon" for these spirit beings, and use "devil" to translate diabolos, which is THE devil, or Satan. This is more correct, since there is a difference between Satan and the demons. Of course, it doesn't matter what you call them, but this is just another example of Way jargon separating us from other "normal" Christians.

Before we were married, my wife had an encounter. She was walking home one night on a deserted street when a guy grabbed her from behind, and held a knife to her throat. He then took her backback and threw her to the ground. He left her there, but started to come back when she got up. Trying to get away, my wife limped to the curb and, looking both ways, saw there was no traffic in either direction. She turned back and saw the guy coming toward her, then turned back to the street and suddenly there was a car not more than five feet from her, with two people in it. They pulled up and stopped, and one of them got out. The guy chasing her ran off. They had her get in the car, asking if she was OK. Her neck was bleeding, so they took her to the hospital. She got out of the car and started walking toward the ER entrance, but when she turned back to see if they were coming, they were gone. The cut on her neck required stitches and they were concerned that there might have been damage to her vocal cords, as she kept getting hoarse. Eventually everything healed OK though. She still has a very faint scar on her neck, but it's at a crease so it's barely visible. The day after the incident, once the shock wore off and she thought over the incident, she knew the people in the car were angels.

And even what many consider "the good stuff" was wrong. For example: *He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before. But much of what he taught has been shown to be bogus. *He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there." Jesus never said anything about going to heaven. He promised God's Kingdom on earth. *He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people." But often what he considered "compromising on God's Word" was really questioning his doctrines. *I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him. Even Jesus said there could be counterfeit signs and wonders. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" and do many mighty works in his name will enter the Kingdom. *I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something. Being tight with a person does nothing. It was that attitude of "special secret knowledge" that attracted many people. But this is little more than gnosticism in a "Christian" guise.

You've got the wrong man. I spell my name... DANGER! (The accents in the Cheech and Chong routine did sound kind of like Rocky Rococo, though.)

Besides being of Chinese and Scotch Irish descent, Tommy Chong himself is Canadian. So Guiness counts, but I prefer Molson. You know what I'm talkin' aboot, eh?

BTW, they had been talking about doing a new movie together a couple or three years ago. They had joked about calling it "Grumpy Old Stoners." I don't know whatever became of that plan. Good to see they're getting together again. I never did any drugs, so everything I know about the drug culture I learned from them. And besides, they were funny! People still quote "Dave's not here" all these years later. And who can forget Sister Mary Elephant? Claaasss! SHUUUUTT UUUUPP!!!! George Harrison and Billy Preston were among the big name musicians that played on "Basketball Jones." And "Santa Claus and His Old Lady" is a still a Christmas favorite (at least on Dr. Demento).

No, he was right. It was a Cheech and Chong routine. It was part of the Television Medley on Big Bambu. "I cannot sign ze papers!" "You VILL sign ze papers!!" "What do ze papers say?" "They say that you have not been harmed or mistreated in any way." "I cannot sign ze papers!" "Und vhy can you not sign ze papers?" "Because you have broken both of my hands!"

The difference is simple: When he said he wanted to screw, she decided to bolt.

:D Happy Birthday! You were born on the same day (and year), yet from your profile pic you look much younger than I do. Cheers! :D

Thanks, everyone!

The purpose of the Way Corps was stated to be to give students the opportunity to be around, and learn the ways of, the "man of God." He succeeded in that! So many Corps grads (not all, I know) held these attitudes about women being discussed here, and passed them on to others. But we should have seen it way back when. In The Way Living In Love, it was obvious the attitude VPW had towards women. Remember the story about meeting (I think it was) J. E. Stiles? Stiles' wife asked what he was going to do, or how long, and he said something like, "None of your damn business." And VP said his "respect" for Stiles was increased because of that! He said women were all liars and you couldn't trust them. We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).