Mark Clarke

Yeah, Lifelines, it was called. It was a full sized book, too, not just a booklet. The weirdest thing is, the intro talks about how VPW, before he died, had told LCM it would be a good idea to collect all his little one-liner "words of wisdom" and put them in a book. Didn't anybody think at the time that it was rather arrogant and self-important to suggest that? (And don't forget, "the suggestion of a man of God is tantamount to an order.") Yes, there are other groups that use the word "corps" but we got in the habit of thinking "Way Corps." I remember hearing a guy talking about when he "went into the corps" and come to find out, he was talking about the Marine Corps!

Did you know that comes from a Jefferson Airplane album? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_Its_Pointed_Little_Head

Just wonderinig... If there were a Sunday morning service that was a really good and uplifting time, with genuine, heart-felt praise and prayer, and good, solid, interesting teaching, would it be enough to overcome the desire to sleep in?

Actually Garner Ted died in 2003, and his son, Mark Armstrong, has continued as the leader of his father's organization, the Intercontinental Church of God. Here are a couple of links to stories about him: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=34620 http://www.rickross.com/reference/wwchurch/wwchurch7.html Apparently Garner Ted (Herbert W. Armstrong's son), after serving in the Worldwide Church of God, was kicked out for various reasons including sexual immorality. He started his own ministry, the Church of God International, but later was forced out by its elders over further sexual misconduct. He then started the Intercontinental Church of God, which his son is continuing. Meanwhile Herbert W's Worldwide Church of God went through changes after his death, and is now more "mainstream" in its teaching and practices. But a number of splinter groups have been formed to preserve Armstrong's doctrines. http://www.wcg.org/lit/aboutus/history.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Church_of_God Some of the parallels with TWI are interesting. But rather than condemn LCM, I think VPW would have been proud of him. "Hold 'er high, son!" And the thing about WWCG going "mainstream" is amazing! Can you imagine The Way turning away from VP's doctrine and becoming mainstream?

Not a cover story for the cover story, so much as choosing a better cover story. He couldn't publicly announce he had cancer, since he taught that cancer was a "devil spirit." One cover story that circled a little bit was the fish hook story. But the PFAL filming lights is better for his Manogod image, so eventually that was the one that became "official." Of course this is my opinion, and there is no proof that would stand up in a court of law. :)

I hear they're going to have ham and pineapple pizza!

Wow! That picture looks like she should be singing "Happy birthday, Mr. President..." Have a good one, Jeff!

And Hitler was a great dancer!

Herbert W. Armstrong. From what I've read and heard from ex members of his Worldwide Church of God, it was as legalistic to its people and corrupt at its center as The Way International. It also splintered into offshoot groups after Armstrong's death just like TWI.

The people associated with TWI weren't shocked, as they had been hearing teaching about it for a number of years. It was no secret, as witnessed by the writings mentioned above, and by the stuff covered in PFAL. It was people who weren't associated with TWI, or at least those who were only minimally involved, that were shocked. The teaching was now set forth in more detail, and presented in what TWI considered a more organized way. Also the title was rather blunt and "in your face" so it got a lot more attention.

That's because he didn't want the government to have too much control, so that he could be in control in his own organization. Nevertheless, his tactics were similar, but within the context of TWI rather than political government.

In addition to White Dove's quote from Mrs. W's book (which pretty much establishes the timeframe of his change of viewpoint), there was also a booklet called One God published in 1964, as listed in the Complete Writings of VPW section of The Living Word Speaks. It was later included as part of JCING. Also, he taught about "Who is the Word" and the John 1 stuff in PFAL (as mentioned by Socks, above) and there was even a chapter about it in The Word's Way, published in 1971. So the "official public teaching" did not start with JCING, but was expanded and solidified (in their minds) with that book. (Yes, I still have my TWI books. Sometimes it's nice to be reminded of how far I've come. It also helps to be able to refer to the source when discussing the Way's theology with others.)

Was VP "walking by the spirit" or was the spirit working in the situation, and happened to be using your trust in VP's opinion to save your life? This was a common misunderstanding about the holy spirit field in TWI. The emphasis was on what WE do with OUR spirit by renewing OUR mind. The focus was all on ourselves, and not on God. But in the Bible there are instances of God working through even unbelievers to bring His will to pass. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Pilate come to mind as examples. God, by way of His spirit, can work in a situation, and make use of whatever is there to achieve his ultimate goal. When we realize it, the focus is on Him rather than on who was "walking."

Wow! That's more than a little different wording. The Word in the Flesh was what Jesus himself is called. To my knowledge even VPW never went that far. The disease has progressed!

I'm a bit confused. Why was your friend angry with you, if both you and he believed Jesus is not God?

Maybe so, but the parts that were about sex were presented in an inappropriately explicit way for a "Christian" class, especially considering there would be 13-year-olds taking it.

Personally, I don't hold on for dear life to JCING the book. "What if that book was wrong?" On a few points it was wrong. But the overall premise - that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and not God - I still believe in. But not because of what VPW taught about it. I re-evaluated all TWI doctrine, and in looking into the trinity question independently of TWI writings, I found that the Scriptures present God as ONE PERSON, not THREE. Ironically, I became more convinced of this when I learned more about who Jesus IS rather than who he is not. The more I learned about what the OT prophecies said about the coming Messiah, the more I saw that God coming to earth in human form was just not part of the plan. God promised to send a king, who would be both a descendant of David, and also the Son of God. That king would rule the earth and subdue worldly kingdoms, and set up the Kingdom of God on earth. Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God, and declaring that it was at hand, and that he was the promised king. So I don't agree with John Juedes' claim that we just accepted JCING because VP said it. I believe the trinity is a false doctrine, in spite of VP's poor research. I think more ex-Ways should look into who else rejects the Trinity besides TWI, and get their takes on the matter. And as I said before, J. Juedes should understand that there is a long tradition of Biblical Unitarianism that was around long before VP was ever born.

"The trouble with being on a quest for demonic evil is that it's hard to pinpoint it through the background noise of human meanness and conniving." --from Pibgorn, an online comic by Brooke McEldowney

I agree. I have joked about the class being Christian SEX and oh yeah, family. But that seems to have been the emphasis in most people's minds. There wasn't a lot of teaching about how to love one another in a marriage, as I recall. This proves my point. I don't know that 13-year-olds needed to see the kind of stuff in that class.

I have a feeling he wouldn't be so relentless. He seems to make a bigger deal about the trinity issue than almost anything else, which in my mind hurts his credibility. The non-trinity position was not uniquely Wierwille's, and many have reached the same conclusion about the trinity without, or even in spite of, the poor scholarship in JCING. Ever since the development of the trinity doctrine there have been groups and individuals who have questioned its Scriptural validity. Yet Juedes almost makes it sound like no one would question the trinity if it weren't for VPW. This makes it harder to accept the other things Juedes says about the Way. I thought he was just blowing smoke for years. It wasn't until I read the first-hand accounts that I realized how bad things were in TWI. He should stick to that stuff and not get into doctrinal issues if we wants to convince people, IMHO.

I also remember him teaching that if a man didn't have a wife, or if for some reason his wife was unable to have sex, he "oughta learn how to masturbate." Too bad he didn't practice what he preached.

It had to do with Christian SEX and oh yeah, family....

Congratulations, Raf! It's funny - you're the first person besides myself that I ever heard refer to their wife as "Mrs. Me."

I remember it was taught that the devil, or demon-influenced people, often accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. I wonder how many instances of "casting out devil spirits" was really that. (Although I believe some instances were genuine.)

Many ex-Ways have done this and been more fully convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. This was not a unique Way doctrine; there are, and have been for centuries, other groups which do not accept the Trinity. If it were based only on what VPW taught, I probably woldn't believe it either, as his arguments were rather weak. But having studied what a number of more competent scholars have written, I realize that in spite of VPW's lack of scholarship, he managed to stumble onto at least one thing that was right. And having looked into it extensively I still find no solid Biblical evidence of the Trinity, which historically did not exist until two hundred or more years after Christ. I can't help but wonder, how much of the argument against the Trinity have you encountered, other than what VPW taught? I don't want to get into a doctrinal debate here. The doctrinal forum is for that, and it would derail the point of this thread. But many (including Dr. Juedes) have assumed that a disbelief in the Trinity is a "Way thing" and have argued only against VPW's weak arguments without taking on the serious considerations of other Biblical Unitarians. As for casting out demons in the name of a false Jesus, Matthew 12:26-27 comes to mind. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges." I believe God is big enough and compassionate enough to deliver someone who genuinely turned to Him, even if they unwittingly believed false doctrines. Whether or not he believed in the Trinity is not a determining factor in whether his deliverance was genuine.