Mark Clarke

I've learned I was in a cult. Sounds obvious but I denied it for years. I've learned that nobody has all the answers. I sometimes think that God allowed me to go through a period where I thought I/we knew it all, just to humble me when it became clear that most of what I thought I knew was wrong. I've learned some sound principles for studying the Bible, including comparing many other viewpoints and deciding for myself who makes a better case. I've learned that not all theologians are "intellectual unbelievers." I've learned that there is a lot of room for opinions about "non-essential" topics, and that if you "mark and avoid" those who don't agree with you, you cut yourself off from possibly valuable resources of learning. I've learned that Jesus' words are relevant, not just "addressed to a different administration," and that I can look to him for help. Everything in my life isn't riding on my ability (or lack thereof) to renew my mind. I've learned that nothing is evil of itself, it depends on what you do with it. Some things that were called evil and to be avoided in TWI I have learned to appreciate. I've learned that the suggestion of a "man of God" is NOT tantamount to an order (except maybe in his own mind). In fact, just because a person is in a leadership position does not mean everything he says is ordained of God. I have learned to be less trusting, but that has good and bad points to it. Yet I've learned that if I'm "messed up," God is willing to work with me and help me, because He wants me in His Kingdom even more than I want to be. And guess what! How He works with me may not be how He works with somebody else and that's okay too! He is not limited to what programs and classes I've had or what nametags I wear. And His infinite power is not limited by what "believing" my tiny "un-renewed mind" can muster. There's more to His Holy Spirit than just "my power" to "operate all nine all the time." I've learned that life is neither as simple nor as complicated as it seemed to be in TWI.

No, the teachings themselves negate their so-called "truths." I agree about JCOP. The whole logic of it built on the day JC died being a Wednesday, which actually contradicts the Gospel records. I did a study of this on my website if you're interested: http://godskingdomfirst.org/DayJesusDied.htm To that list I would add that while he claimed to be substantiating some of his points using Greek, in many cases his knowledge of Greek was faulty at best. Just one example that comes to mind is the supposed difference between dechomai and lambano. You can't even find VPW's definitions in Bullinger.

I for one have not limited my understanding of VPW's teachings to just my memory of the class. I read and worked the books, and taught them at Twig for years. I was sold out to the notion that God had spoken to VP and taught him how to put all that stuff together so he could teach it to us. But in more recent years I have learned how to study the Bible without those blinders and discovered how much of VP's interpretation was just plain error. And that was before I even heard about most of the sordid details of his personal life and questionable moral character. Just from a scholar's standpoint he missed the whole point of Jesus Christ's preaching and ministry. Many scholars and even simple laymen have read the Bible without preconceived ideas and seen that the whole crux of what Jesus taught was about the coming Kingdom of God on earth, and his disciples taught the same thing throughout Acts. But VP taught that the Kingdom of God was overall while the Kingdom of Heaven involved the personal presence of the Lord from heaven. Yet anyone who can read can see that "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are synonymous in the Gospels. This is just one of the many obvious errors that I missed for years. It was like the video above, where we're so busy counting how many passes the white team makes that we miss the moonwalking bear! Many of his explanations that were supposedly based on Greek cannot even be substantiated in Bullinger's Lexicon, let alone reference works by more mainstream theologians. How many works by other theologians have you read, Mike? Can you explain the errors in their logic or do you just declare they are wrong because they contradict Wierwille's writings? As you say, this is not the place to get into all this, not being the Doctrinal Forum, but you claimed that most former Way followers don't accurately remember his teachings. I just wanted to point out that there are plenty who have weighed them in the balances and found they came up lacking.

What does a sperm and a lawyer have in common? One in fifty million has a chance of becoming a human being.

Well, said, Dooj!

Since that end product has been shown to be full of errors, it should make you question the source. But if you have a better relationship with God, that's great. He has reached people through (and in spite of) worse ministries than TWI. Nevertheless, many followers were convinced and sold out to TWI and VPW because they believed that God had audibly spoken to him and made the promise in question. That is why it matters. But, as I said, if your relationship with God is not dependent on whether He spoke to VPW, more power to ya. (If you want to make your relationship with Him even better, why not study His Word without the errors of VPW's writings coloring your perception?)

The above quotes from the class and TW:LIL are what I remember too. I remember VPW saying in the class that God told him He would teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. But he didn't say it was audible and he didn't mention the snow. I took the class for the first time in 1971, and the TW:LIL came out in '72. I remember being surprised when I read that the "promise" was audible, and then followed by the snow "phenomenon." What he said in the class and what he said in the book were probably mixed in the memories of many TWI followers. As has been pointed out, though, it doesn't matter when he said it, we all know that he said it. The reason I brought up whether or not it was in the class was because OperaBuff had written: For me, I was hooked when I read it, and it was talked up a lot more later, even though I didn't hear it in PFAL. I don't know if I would have believed it had I heard it in my first class anyway. It was one of those things that you didn't drop on new people, but shared with "seasoned" grads to increase their level of commitment (at least in the '70s). But because it became commonly known lore that was often repeated or referred to, it made us less inclined to question his understanding of the Word. If God taught him, how could we think we had a better understanding? This is the psychological power that it had, no matter when we heard the story.

Was the snowstorm/gas pumps story in PFAL? I seem to remember it first being made known in the book, The Way: Living In Love, not in the class. I'd be interested in finding out if there's any record of the story being told before TW:LIL was published (1972 or so?). When I look back on his so-called "research" that no real scholar would take seriously, and his extremely weak grasp of Greek and even English grammar, not to mention his "hick" way of talking, I would tend to disagree. He was very manipulative and egotistical as well, but in hindsight he strikes me as being more twisted and delusional than a great master planner.

I think the vast majority of them are hucksters. If there were any "psychics" utilizing real spiritual power of some sort which they perceive as a gift, they probably would not be doing it in a show business environment, such as radio. There may be the odd "real" spiritual mediums in remote places, but the famous ones are usually phony. If you are seeking guidance, why not go to the source - the true God?

It occasionally happened, but not with any major doctrines. And the fact that it occasionally happened served to perpetuate the illusion that we were a research ministry studying God's Word, rather than just reworking VPW's words.

I'm not sure; we may never know the truth. I just don't know if we was a good enough actor to lie so blatantly. I've long leaned toward the opinion that he was so warped and/or deceived that he came to really believe his own BS. Has anyone considered the possibility that he really did see a vision, or even real snow, but it was manipulated by a demon (or "devil spirit" as we called them)?

Just wondering... what movie was that from? Oh and may you end up sleeping in your boxes in someplace interesting like Myanmar You forgot... "...And may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits!"

Johnny Carson had a theory that there was really only one fruitcake in existence, and everyone just keeps giving it to other people.

You rebel, you!

On what do you base the notion that Abel was a hunter-gatherer? Gen. 4:2 states, "...And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."

That's unusual. Did they call it Christmas or Household Holiday?

Not only does it not matter what other cultures celebrate at mid-winter, but I was very pleased to find out that most Christians who celebrated the birth of Christ on Christmas were not just "white-washing pagan rituals." (I also wrote about this in my blog.) Child abuse to NOT lie to your kids!? That's a new one on me! I don't see any reason not to tell them that Santa Claus is a make believe character that we can have fun with. Someone I knew a number of years back taught his three year old that Santa was a fictitious character. And it was so cute hearing a three year old say, "fictitious character!"

Back when I was in (70s - 80s) they celebrated it but said we should call it Household Holiday. This was because of it not really being the date of Jesus' birth, and the "pagan" origins of so many Christmas traditions. (Turns out Christmas and many of the associated traditions may not be as pagan as we were told. Check out this article and this one). I don't know if they still make a big deal about it.

Sad but true. But fortunately many of us who were in the Way grew out of it.

HOW THE WAY STOLE CHRISTMAS Every Christian in Church-ville liked Christmas a lot. But The Way, with HQ in New Knoxville, did NOT. They hated religion, and mainstream tradition; They wanted control and our perfect submission. It could be their heads weren’t screwed on just right. It could be perhaps that their shoes were too tight. But I think that the most likely reason of all May have been that their hearts were two sizes too small. But whatever the reason, their hearts or their shoes, They put forth their doctrine – the don’ts and the do’s. “It can’t be called Christmas, ’cause it’s not a Mass. (You know that of course if you’ve taken The Class.) "We’ll say Household Holiday, or Ho-Ho for short Let’s see, what other Scriptures can we distort? No singing angels, that’s strictly forbidden! (The morning stars singing in Job must stay hidden.) "A tree decked with ornaments, lights and such things Is pagan and godless – what evil it brings! It started with Rome and their long winter nights. (Or that’s what we’ve heard, and we know what’s right!) "But the biggest wrong Christmas tradition of all Was the date of Christ’s birth – he was born in the fall! The Doctor assured us, his teaching was true. (The men who researched it before him knew too!) "So rather than focus on Jesus this season Let’s cause more division and argue the reason. We’ve got to be different from regular church, So we can grab kids who have started to search.” But some of the folks on the field said, “What gives? Who are you to control us? The Lord Jesus lives! We’re not doing those pagan rituals you fear. We’re celebrating Jesus, at the end of the year. "So what if he really was born in September? The main thing is getting more folks to remember That he is the King that God promised to send, And there will be peace and good will in the end.” The Way didn’t like that, not one little bit. It threatened their power to teach Holy Writ. “If they start to think for themselves, then they’d see They really don’t need us – then where would we be?” So they made an example of the folks on the field By driving them out from their spiritual shield. “You’re out of the WOWs and you’re out of the Corps, And you won’t be allowed in our Twigs anymore. "You’re causing division, we’ll mark and avoid you For daring to question the group that employed you. And Satan will get you, you’ll all be grease spots By midnight, for thinking outside the nine dots!” They thought they were doing the work of the Lord By keeping such cop-outs from wielding the Sword. “We can’t compromise, we must remain strong. We cannot afford to find out we were wrong!” The folks on the field had just heard the news And the Way thought that they would be singing the blues. But their sound wasn't sad! Why, their sound sounded merry! It couldn't be so! But it WAS merry! VERY! You might think that they were the losers that day For having been booted and shunned by The Way. But they’d sat and they’d read from the Bible last night And concluded that what The Way taught can’t be right. Then they thought of something they hadn’t before. Maybe Jesus… perhaps… means a little bit more. We’re saved without classes, and without name tags, We’re saved without Teachers with all of their brags. And what happened then? Well, in Church-ville they say That the folks on the field grew three sizes that day. And the minute their hearts didn’t feel quite so tight, They knew that they still were beloved in God’s sight. They learned that God gave people brains, and what’s more, You don’t have to leave them outside the church door. They read for themselves, and they thought that way too, And found that the Truth’s not a What but a Who. And no matter the origins of Christmas traditions, They knew if they gave them their own definitions That bright decorations spread gladness and cheer; And we sing Hallelujah, Messiah is here!

Yes, everyone is supposed to do the work of a minister to some extent. I think johnj's point was that pastors do it every day and usually have some kind of formal training as well. Doesn't make them better or special though. I think I got your point. While pastors in many denominations are humble and genuinely dedicated to service, there was in TWI that ridiculous and devilish idea that the leaders (especially if they were Corps grads and even more so with "ordained" clergy) were specially set apart and because of their "commitment" we were expected to receive their words as if they were direct from God. Occasionally God did work in some of them, but more often than not it was ego and a power trip, by which many (though not all) of them manipulated and even abused their people. If people aren't taught that the leaders are a special class, there is less opportunity for such manipulation and abuse. Also, there always needs to be accountability.

Thanks - I forgot about the Eastern Orthodox split.

Well said, johnj. The danger comes when people are taught, as they were in TWI, that the leader is in a special class, and his words are equivalent to God's words. Then people stop thinking for themselves and allow their leaders and the organization as a whole to control their lives, rather than learning to think for themselves and to let God guide them. As long as people recognize that their pastor, while having more experience and Biblical knowledge, is still a human subject to error, they are safe. And the best pastors bring every situation back to God and His Word and encourage their people to seek Him, and His solutions and His guidance.

I do too. And Rumrunner, you didn't derail the thread. I'm just trying to understand how the statue fits with the other images in the video, about TWI and "the wrong way" and all that. Maybe I'm just too analytical. (I've been trying to figure out why I'm like that!)