WordWolf

From the fifth and final link on the first post.... https://truthwatchers.com/the-word-of-faith-heresy/ The Word of Faith Heresy After studying the Word-Faith movement, Hank Hanegraaff, determined the Faith movement was considerably a cult, saying, “Given these definition of a cult, it is completely justified to characterize particular groups within the Faith movement as cults – either theologically or sociologically or, in some cases, both….Copeland Ministries, headed by Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, for example bears all the marks of a cult.”1) But because of the diversity of teachers and teachings within the Faith movement, Hanegraaff concludes, “Thus, while certain groups within the Faith movement can be properly classified as cults, the word cultic more aptly describes the movement as a whole.”2) There have been various opinions about the Word-Faith movement over the years. Judith Matta considers “the Word-Faith teaching is perhaps the most subtle, heretical system to emerge in our own times.”3) Rod Rosenbladt, wrote, “Virtually all of the leading American TV ministers have drunk at the trough of the esoteric, Swedenborgian, theosophical speculations of the late E. W. Kenyon.”4) Many other who have researched this movement would agree with Rosenbladt considering Word-Faith occultism. For example, Hanegraaff’s predecessor Walter Martin added quotations from a leading proponent of Word-Faith doctrines, Kenneth Copeland, in his last published book before his death entitled The New Age Cult.5) Evidently, Dr. Walter Martin considered Copeland and the Faith movement part of the New Age movement. Albert Dagger compares Copeland’s doctrines with “theosophists,”6) and equates positive confession as “a tenet of witchcraft.”7) After quoting Yonggi Cho, another Word-Faith teacher, Mark Haville asks, “Is this a model for prayer or casting a spell?”8) John MacArthur wrote, “Word Faith theology has turned Christianity into a system no different from the lowest human religions – a form of voodoo where God can be coerced, cajoled, manipulated, controlled, and exploited for the Christian’s own end.”9) Robert Bowman proposed, “Of all the critics of the Word-Faith teaching who regard it as heretical, John MacArthur seemed to labor the hardest at striking a balance… issuing his judgment…”10) In McArthur’s more recent book Strange Fire, he wrote of the Word-Faith movement: “They are promoting crass superstition blended with false doctrines purloined from assorted Gnostic and metaphysical cults, cloaked in Christian terms and symbols.”11) The core teaching of Faith theology is properly identified in the following assessment. “Faith as an external force and human ability to manipulate the supernatural by words are beliefs common in pagan magic, but are entirely foreign to biblical faith.”12) Johanna Michaelsen, a former occultist, explains the history behind this thought. “In ancient Egypt, the followers of the Egyptian god Thot (the master of all knowledge and originator of alchemy) believed that thoughts were real things, with vibrational and energy levels of their own which could be manipulated to produce physical effects. In other words, what you think is what you get.”13) She further asserts, “Put aside all critical faculties, enter an altered state of consciousness, have faith in your faith, and allow the Force to work through you. Nothing shall be withheld from you if only you believe! Herein lies the basis of all occult power. This is how channelers become channelers, how occultists develop occult powers, and how millions of our school children become open to demonic beings.”14) John Ankerberg and John Weldon, acknowledged in Facts On False Teaching In The Church: Some of those stressing the power of the mind, “faith” or Positive Thinking include: Robert Schuller – “Possibility Thinking”; Clement Stone – “Positive Mental Attitude”; Norman Vincent Peale, the modern “founder” of positive thinking; Oral Roberts’ “Seed-Faith” principles; the teachings of Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland, also known as “Word-Faith” teaching; Paul Yonggi Cho, who stresses a health and prosperity gospel; and Charles Capps and many others who stress “Positive Confession.” The terms Positive Confession, Prosperity Thinking, Theology of Success Movement, or “name it and claim it” are all terms used to describe those stressing the power of faith as a force to influence the environment of God.15) Word-Faith preacher Pat Robertson admits his principles are the same used by occultists such as Napoleon Hill. “I began to realize… the Bible is not an impractical book of theology, but rather a practical book of life containing a system of thought and conduct that will guarantee success [with] principles so universal they might better be considered as laws…such people as Napoleon Hill, who wrote Think and Grow Rich, have gleaned only a few of the truths of the kingdom of God…. Some of the metaphysical principles of the kingdom, taken by themselves, can produce fantastic temporal benefits.”16) Commenting on this statement from Pat Robertson, Dave Hunt distinguishes that, Napoleon Hill was an occultist who learned his “metaphysical principle” from demons who came to him from the spirit world posing as masters of a “temple of wisdom.” Peale, Schuller, Robertson, Hagin, Copeland, and others, have brought into the church ancient occultism as part of the “signs and wonders” and “prosperity” movement foretold for the last days.17) Constance Cumbey criticizes Pat Robertson‘s book, observing: There are disturbingly strong parallels in them with Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, including the Alice Bailey teachings, and even Russian occultist George Gurdjieff. Robertson’s Law of Reciprocity sounds amazingly like Gurdjieff’s “Law of Reciprocal Maintenance.”18) Further alerting the influence of Robertson‘s television show, Cumbey mentioned, “While he has denied Biblical inerrancy, he has at the same time given important New Agers such as Jeremy Rifkin and Alvin Toffler access to his 30 million plus Christian viewing audience. He has done likewise for promoters of questionable, even blatantly New Age oriented – theologies, including Richard Foster, Bruce Larson, Robert Schuller, and Dennis Waitley.”19) And, “Rifkin has boasted to interviewers that Robertson’s program has been one of his chief entry points to the Evangelicals.”20) Leaders of the Word-Faith movement have admitted the similarities of their teachings with metaphysics, but try to deny it. E. W. Kenyon, the forefather of Faith theology wrote, “We are not dealing with mysticism, philosophy or metaphysics. We are dealing with realities. …we are dealing with the basic laws of man’s being, the great spiritual laws that govern the unseen forces of life.”21) Assessing this statement, D. R. McConnell explains: Kenyon claims that his teaching is not metaphysical and then immediately follows his disclaimer with a central dogma of metaphysics. For example, when he speaks of “the great spiritual laws that govern the unseen forces of life,” he is espousing deism, the metaphysical world view that the universe is governed by impersonal, spiritual laws rather [sic] that a personal, sovereign God.22) Kenyon again applies this method of disclaiming his metaphysic doctrine prior to teaching it. “This is not a new metaphysics of philosophy. This is reality. This is God breaking into the sense realm.”23) And again, McConnell points out the obvious. When Kenyon refers to “God breaking into the sense realm,” he is espousing dualism, which is the metaphysical view of reality that the spiritual realm and the physical realm are mutually exclusive and even opposed to one another.24) Kenyon‘s frequent disclaimers, such as: “This is not psychological or metaphysics,”25) have been repeated by Kenneth Hagin who wrote: “When I preach on the mind, it frightens some congregations. They immediately think of Christian Science.”26) Vinson Synan reported: Hagin insists “Kenyon’s influence on my ministry has been minute. Only his teachings on the name of Jesus have much to do with my theology. I absolutely deny any metaphysical influence from Kenyon. I teach not Christian Science, but Christian sense.”27) Here we find an interesting admission from Hagin; he considers Kenyon’s teachings in line with Christian Science and metaphysics, yet, D. R. McConnell documented extensive plagiarism of E. W. Kenyon by Kenneth Hagin.28) While Hagin has always attempted to separate himself from anything to do with metaphysics, he has now placed himself in that very camp as he has endorsed Kenyon’s writings, even calling it revelation from God. “I began to look around to see what I could find written on the subject. For others, you see, have revelations from God. I was amazed how little material there is in print on this subject. The only good book devoted entirely to it that I have found is E. W. Kenyon’s The Wonderful Name of Jesus. I encourage you to get a copy. It is a marvelous book. It is revelation knowledge. It is the Word of God.”29) When accused of plagiarizing Kenyon, Vinson Synan related Hagin response: “the Holy Spirit gave him the same words as Kenyon without his having prior knowledge of the sources.”30) If we allow Hagin the benefit of the doubt, consider how the Mormons and Irvingites had no contact but they received revelations with correlating doctrines. Hank Hanegraaff also documents a number of Kenneth Copeland’s teachings with “striking similarities” of Mormon theology.31) P. Atkinson’s doctorate thesis on the “Jesus died spiritually” doctrine of the Word Faith movement stated, “Copeland can now be regarded as the unofficial leader of the wole Word-faith movement.”32) …………..

Nice suit.

How about "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind????"

That was Rush's "the Spirit of Radio." FREE POST!

No dang? I'd vaguely heard of the third movie as a story where they play ghosts, but that was a long time ago.

"Abbott and Costello???????????"

Was this the remake of "Total Recall"? They sound like things that MIGHT have been said in TR but weren't. at least not in the version with AS.

Jack Palance Batman Jack Nicholson

I'll give it a few more hours.

It's hardly impossible to show how fake Pikes Peak/Burton was.

So, ONE poster from dozens agrees with Mike on one thing, and it's a great victory. Furthermore, the ONE person MUST be correct, and the DOZENS of people MUST be wrong- because otherwise, Mike is wrong as usual.

Research Geek had an extensive history at twi. Mike wasn't thrilled with that background, since RG could call Mike on things he knew, as an insider, that Mike did not. I think most people who arrived here didn't think there was any significant problem with vpw when they arrived, and learned otherwise over time. That certainly applied to me. There also have been a handful of people (a small handful trickling through over 2 decades) who were slow to accept the ideas of some things reported about what vpw did, what vpw said, etc. After all, it's almost fantastic to believe that vpw was a reputable Bible teacher, then hear that he was drugging women and raping them, plagiarizing all of his best work, etc, etc. So, when it comes to Research Geek, I think he was slow to accept the full depths of vpw's depravity. This affected what he was willing to see, and willing to say. It IS true that Princeton Theological Seminary is an actual school, and the Masters from there was accredited and legit. What is a problem from there was vpw phrasing himself- and getting others to do the same- to prevaricate and to insinuate he went to PRINCETON UNIVERSITY. Whenever anyone says they went to school at PRINCETON, it's automatic that anyone would think it was Princeton UNIVERSITY- unless they were a staffer at PTS or lived on-grounds or something. Across the US, around the world, Princeton UNIVERSITY has a reputation. So, when they said he had a Masters at "Princeton" and said nothing else, the implication was that it was the University- and anyone who claims otherwise is delusional. As for Pike's Peak, RG was slow to "call a spade a spade." Pike's Peak was one of many degree mills at the time. The degree was unaccredited. ("They have as much authority to grant a degree as Schlotski's Deli!" - Al Franken.) The campus was nonexistent, the library was virtually nonexistent, and students only showed up on campus once or twice total. Pike's Peak has never come up in discussions about what a great education it offered, how it built a good reputation, etc. All discussions are about how it was a degree mill. Research Geek was HONESTLY MISTAKEN, calling PP "experimental" and trying to grant it every benefit of every doubt. However, the facts are in, and Pike's Peak was a degree mill. vpw himself knew that, and he said freely that people kept saying he didn't get a degree. That's a half-truth- they said he didn't get a REAL doctorate, a doctorate from an ACCREDITED institution. Naturally,by saying only part of the truth, he framed the claims to put himself in the best light and pretend his detractors had no basis for criticizing him. BTW, RG once asked a good question, and it's time that question got answered. vpw went to a legit school for his Masters- PTS. He KNEW that PP was a degree mill. Why, then, would he go THERE for his degree, knowing it was a degree mill? (RG phrased it a bit more positively for PP, but he knew vpw knew PP had a bad rep, yet he went there anyway.) So, why did vpw go? Why go to a place to get an unaccredited doctorate instead of a place to get an accredited doctorate? To ask the question is to have the answer. We know all about vpw's behavior now, and this was not uncharacteristic of vpw. vpw was a very lazy student. Everybody said so. His father said so, even when leaning on a school and saying he'd be a good student there. He plagiarized his way through his sermons in his pastorate, finding it a chore to read the Bible every week to prepare a sermon. According to vpw, TWICE in his first year, he thought of giving up as a pastor. So, lazy vpw made it through a Bachelors. Lazy vpw went to a real school for his Masters, and even picking the softest option- Homiletics- worked far harder than he wished to get his Masters. When faced with a few more years of even harder work, vpw decided to go the lazy route and FAKE IT. He approached a fake school and got their fake degree, largely retyping his Masters thesis as his Doctoral dissertation. His check cleared, they had a paper as a pretext to granting the degree, and vpw got his "doctorate." That saved vpw time, work, and money, and got him a Doctorate. Ever notice how he HID the name of the place he got his Doctorate from? "He got his Masters from Princeton. He later went on to complete his Doctorate." That made it sound like he got both from Princeton. Why did he hide the name? He was well aware how it made him look that he got a "doctorate" from a degree mill.

In case you're wondering how he managed to finish the sandwich in time, there's 2 answers, and I think both apply in part. 1) Pike's Peak wasn't exactly demanding with the requirements on the submitted doctoral thesis. 2) vpw submitted the same work to PTS for his Masters that he submitted to PP for his Doctorate. Both papers were about Peter as a preacher. It's been mentioned here before that a proper Doctoral dissertation can't be the same subject as the Masters thesis, they both have to be different subjects. (Both have to demonstrate a wide grasp of the studied material.) So, the paper that got him a legit Masters from PTS was largely the same paper that got him his unaccredited "Doctorate" from PP.

So, the first time you heard that vpw went to "Princeton", you immediately said "Obviously that was Princeton Theological Seminary, not Princeton University." Sorry, I can't buy that. I'm calling that an outright lie. And hardly a surprise by now.

Just applying Occam's Razor. It's possible, but less likely. I'd need something more concrete than opinions before going there. The current evidence was enough to support any one of the three. It's my OPINION it's not the second, but either the first, or the third, although both is certainly within the realm of possibility. I try not to jump to something because it's "possible" without something more solid to go on.

That link had a second part..... https://www.harmonychurchofgod.org/spiritual-faqs/the-false-teaching-of-the-word-of-faith-movement-part-2 " THE FALSE TEACHING OF THE WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT, Part 2 THE FALSE TEACHING OF THE WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT, Part 2 By: Jack Guyler I covered two of the primary flaws and errors in this movement in Part 1. I want to cover two additional errors of this movement here in Part 2. FALSE TEACHING #3 POWER & COMFORT ARE SIGNS OF GOD’S BLESSINGS There is a teaching that is derived from the Old Testament that says “don’t touch God’s anointed.” This has become a catch-all phrase in many Charismatic and Pentecostal circles that insulates pastors, teachers and other leaders from even being asked to address anything they are doing that might not be in good character, let alone abusive. Even when people know their leaders are doing wrong, they have been indoctrinated to turn a blind eye and say “we can’t say or do anything to God’s anointed.” The real belief here is, if they say or do anything against their leaders, something worse will happen to them – like karma coming back to bite them! This allows many leaders to run free and do what they want with little to no accountability. This is one of the reasons why you see so many high profile pastors and teachers living such extravagant life-styles and getting away with perverse and abusive behavior for long periods of time. It is also why they get away with teaching false doctrines such as Word of Faith because no one would dare challenge them. The real issue with false doctrine and teaching (when persons stray from the basic core tenants of Christianity established by the early church and confirmed by various church councils and creeds) is not just that it is bad teaching. But bad teaching leads to bad thinking; and bad thinking leads to corrupt behaviors, patterns and habits. And over time, these become the norm or status quo. When these are established as such, no one much questions them anymore. And then they are passed around as “truth” and passed down from one generation to the next, no one thinks to look deeper into them anymore and they become an established way of both thinking and behavior. Unfortunately, these types of thoughts and behaviors don’t align with the righteous and holy teaching of scripture. And because of this, many Word of Faith teachers are telling the people in the pews and their online audiences that when they see power and comfort, it is a sign that these people are walking with God. This justifies their own self-centered life-styles and it encourages people to pursue wealth, power, prestige and comfort more than Jesus. So you can see how this teaching is the very antithesis of the true Gospel. What does the true Gospel teach? It isn’t all doom and gloom, but it is about sacrifice and surrendering to the Lord. In fact, the Apostle Paul said his greatest joy and peace came from knowing and even suffering for the Lord. He wouldn’t exchange his life style as a Pharisee with great power and prestige, for knowing Christ. He wouldn’t go back to this life if he could have. Paul learned the true power of the Gospel. Listen to what he says: “I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish that I may gain Christ…” Paul also learned that power was found in weakness because it was in this place where he really found connection with Christ, not in the pursuit of money, power, prestige and worldly things. Listen again to what he says: “Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” God’s real favor is not found in power and prestige as the Word of Faith lies to you about, but rather in weakness that leads to knowing Christ. Do you see the error of this teaching? FALSE TEACHING #4 YOU CAN CREATE REALITY WITH YOUR OWN WORDS This is derived from the early words in Genesis where it is written, “And God says…” and then He created all various aspects of our universe including humans. They then take a big leap and say, because God created and brought things into existence with words, because we have the capacity to speak words, we too can create new realities and bring new things into existence. While human words are powerful, and ideas are equally powerful in helping us see things in a new way and gain new perspectives and insights; only God can actually create things out of nothing and create new realities. This is really a mix of other religions with humanism. It is placing ourselves in the position of God. As I recall, the first humans tried to act and become like God. How did that work out for them? The truth is, this has been repeated by every human being that has ever lived. We all try to be god in their own lives and often in the lives of others. I can tell you it never works out well! There is a reason God is God and we are not. We don’t have the power, insight, knowledge or eternal substance to be God. We are dependent creatures on the Creator – but for some reason, this is a very difficult lesson for us to learn. And the Word of Faith movement continues to perpetuate this lie by telling you that you can create reality with your words. Yes, it is true that we can live out self-fulfilling prophecies to our detriment; and yes thinking positively can help us in many situations, but we can’t create new realities with our words. The one eternal change we can make using our words is found in Romans 10:9-10 “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him form the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” May we use our words wisely in prayer and in sharing the Word of God rather than trying to use them simply for our own purposes. The Word of Faith movement looks to use words to benefit themselves, not glorify God and build up others."

Fourth link of the first post: https://www.harmonychurchofgod.org/spiritual-faqs/the-false-teaching-of-the-word-and-faith-movement-part-1 " THE FALSE TEACHING OF THE WORD AND FAITH MOVEMENT, Part 1 THE FALSE TEACHING OF THE WORD AND FAITH MOVEMENT, Part 1 By: Jack Guyler The Word of Faith false teaching is running like poison through the Body of Christ. It is propagated by some of the richest and most famous teachers in America such as Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn. There are many others as well. Many are found regularly on the Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN). They all teach a version of this very destructive false teaching that many people both inside and outside of the church look to as their source of Christian teaching. Some even call this faith teaching heresy or a “different gospel.” We aren’t here to judge these men and women as to the type of persons they are, but we do need to alert you to their teachings so you can distinguish between false and true Christian teaching. So what are these teachings and what is the truth according to the New Testament? FALSE TEACHING #1 GOD IS REQUIRED TO OBEY YOUR WORDS They will take a verse such as Mark 11:24 that says, “I tell you whatever you ask for in prayer, believe you have received it and it will be yours.” They take these words literally and out of context. They teach words have power. And we know that words do have power. We know our words can greatly affect other people for good or bad. We know the power that words have over children from parents for example. But they take it a step further and mix the contractual covenant of the Old Covenant between God and Israel into their teaching and say that God is contractually obligated to obey your words if you are living in alignment with God’s laws. And while it is true we always benefit from living by God’s laws, He is not under any obligation to hear our words and then act accordingly. Remember, this is God – the one who created you and the universe! We don’t get to say “frog” and then God says, “how high do you want me to jump?” DANGER IN THIS TEACHING 1. Our faith is built on faulty misconceptions. If we follow this line of thinking, we end up thinking we can control God through our words. This really puts us in the position of “god” rather than God in our thinking and faith. We can pray using words and ask God to meet our wants and needs, but we need to remember He is God and He knows what is best for us. Prayer should not be a way to strong-arm God or manipulate Him 2. It sets us up for disappointment. If we think we can always pray or say away anything bad coming our way, we aren’t living in the real world. People every day die from the coronavirus, cancer, accidents, murder and other things. People get sick…people get hurt…people get divorced…people lose their jobs… Jesus prayed in the Garden to have the cup of suffering pass from Him, but it didn’t. Paul prayed that his thorn would be removed three times, but it wasn’t. What is true according to Jesus and the New Testament is that we should pray, but we should also know we live in a broken world and we will experience pain and disappointment. But the even greater truth is that a compassionate God will experience it with us and one day provide a new heaven and a new earth for us to enjoy together for eternity FALSE TEACHING #2 HEALTH & WEALTH IS SIGN OF GOD’S FAVOR There is a reason why the Word of Faith Movement is also known as the “Prosperity Gospel” or the “Health and Wealth Gospel.” It is because they teach that if you are following God’s laws, then you will have favor with God and one of the signs of His favor is health and wealth. Much of what they teach is about giving to God – what this usually translates into is you with little money giving generous donations to their lavish ministries. Is it any wonder that many of the high profile teachers in this movement live in million dollar homes, own private jets and vacation in extravagant locations? DANGER IN THIS TEACHING 1. It leads to the pursuit of money and power. People who are living as if this teaching were true, pursue wealth and a self-absorbed life. While they are believing wealth is a sign of God’s favor, they are missing such passages as Matthew 6:19-21 and 1 Timothy 6:9-11 that talk about how deadly the pursuit of money can be for one’s soul 2. It keeps people from living out of grace. Because you have to pursue the image of wealth to portray God’s favor in your life, you are unable to live out the gift of salvation that God has graciously given you. You spend your whole life working and pursuing an image that you are favored by God rather than resting in the real thing 3. It causes people who follow this teaching as truth to look down on those who are poor or sick. Again, they forget that Jesus didn’t have much in terms of earthly possessions. They forget that Paul forsook earthly power, titles and riches to follow Christ. They forget that the disciples suffered much for the sake of Christ 4. And maybe worst of all, when this teaching gets into you it becomes toxic because you end up wanting what God gives you more than wanting God. This is the height of idolatry!

OldSKool: "When I got answers to prayers in TWI it simply meant that God answered my prayers. Now, I used to think it was reflective of the doctrines that TWI taught....now I just understand that God loves us no matter what and he will bless his people in spite of doctrinal issues. Christianity isnt an intellectual pursuit, though wierwille tried to make it that way. God looks on the heart and scripture is filled with people who loved God, had faith, and lots of error in their minds. Moses was a pagan at the time he turned aside to see the burning bush, yet God lit the bush anyway. None of us have the full picture at this time. " This isn't difficult to understand. It might be difficult to ACCEPT if one clinging to error and encounters the truth. I am thankful that few people here actually have that problem.

Of course, some forced meanings were a lot more forced than others. My personal favorite came from when vpw questioned Jlm D00p at length about what it was like to ATTEND AN ORGY, despite Jlm's obvious discomfort over the subject. vpw then mentioned I Corinthians 7:1. For those following along without a Bible, here's I Corinthians 7:1 (KJV.) " Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." NASB: "Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman." NIV: "Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” Now, that's pretty straightforward to just about anyone. Based solely on that verse, would you think the implication was that Scripture was saying there- and probably in general- that orgies were seriously wrong? If it's good for a man not to "touch" a woman, or for him to refrain from sexual relations with a woman, then it's bad for a man to have sexual relations with A woman. Multiply the women and you multiply how bad it is. That doesn't take much reading ability. And there isn't much room for disagreement as to what it says right there. (Any disagreement would be on what it says elsewhere, other implications of the verse, whether the verse is canonical, but not as to what the verse actually says and means.) That having been said, Jlm D00p remembers what vpw said rather clearly- because of how shocking it was. vpw, when speaking about ATTENDING AN ORGY, said "That's all available." He said that if God Almighty had meant ATTENDING ORGIES was to be avoided, He would have said "BEST" rather than "GOOD" in that verse." To me, that's about as forced a meaning as one can get on a verse. The Bible said to avoid sexual relations, and someone else comes along and says that same verse actually means that it's OK with God if you ATTEND AN ORGY. Isaiah 5:20 (KJV) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

"Angry Young Man", by Billy Joel. "There's a place in the world for the angry young man With his working class ties and his radical plans. He refuses to bend he refuses to crawl And he's always at home with his back to the wall. And he's proud of his scars and the battles he's lost. And struggles and bleeds as he hangs on his cross. And likes to be known as the angry young man. Give a moment or two to the angry young man With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand. He's been stabbed in the back he's been misunderstood. It's a comfort to know his intentions are good. And he sits in his room with a lock on the door With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor. And he likes to be known as the angry young man. I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage I found that just surviving was a noble fight. I once believed in causes too. I had my pointless point of view, And life went on no matter who was wrong or right. And there's always a place for the angry young man With his fist in the air and his head in the sand. And he's never been able to learn from mistakes So he can't understand why his heart always breaks. And his honor is pure and his courage is well And he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell. And he'll go to the grave as an angry old man." https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/billyjoel/preludeangryyoungman.html

T-Bone: "What’s ironic are the times when I have admitted being young and naïve to fall for wierwille’s con – and Mike jumps on that to say how smart and discerning he was to ignore wierwille’s ‘petty shortcomings’ and just absorb ‘The Word’. A weird role reversal for sure… maybe a pot calling the kettle black thing." WordWolf: While I do believe it's true that Mike remembers it that way NOW, I'm well aware that his memory of things- including interactions here- often vary widely from what actually happened. I don't think Mike was even a fraction of the savvy he tells himself- and us- that he was back then. Part of why I say that is that his accounts of what he believed when keep contradicting each other by decades. That's either the sign of someone who's editing all his memories, a compulsive liar, or incipient Alzheimer's.

I was perfectly fine being an eclecticist, and adding the best of whatever I found to whatever twi was teaching... which, incidentally, made it a lot easier to leave twi when the truth started coming out. If vpw had openly been an eclecticist, there wouldn't be all the problems there were and there would be no GSC.

Oh, and it says a lot to have someone scroll down and attempt to address a minor point on the thread- unsuccessfully- while completely skipping over a thread's main point, which was unassailable and contradicted their entire worldview.

It's another example of vpw taking credit for the work of others. It's dishonest. In this case, it was also illegal since The Amplified Bible is under copyright. He could have made the same points by citing his sources and a brief quote. vpw frequently skipped his sources and insinuated he authored the work of others - Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, twi staffers, etc. It's both illegal and immoral. But neither of those matter to Mike because he will endorse anything pfal related because he's convinced himself that all the evidence to the contrary is to be avoided, and the idea that pfal is from God Almighty is to be clung to dogmatically- all because he got blessed in twi.... as if one relates to the other at all.