WordWolf

You missed my point completely. Did we need to be subject to the twi framework, error and abuses in order to reap the benefits of Christian doctrine? From what I've seen, ounce for ounce, we would have benefited FAR more from an expansion of BG Leonard's work into the United States, rather than have someone waste the time to repackage it and the man-hours to add an elaborate organizational framework to it. Heck, rather than just say "denominations are wrong!", we might have motivated the denominations to change from within. A LOT more work could have gotten done if a lot of the frippery had not been demanded. Even then, from what I've seen, vpw choked a lot of legitimate Christian growth on both coasts by demanding Heefner and Doop step down so he could run things.

Posted by Mike. [WordWolf in italics for once for variety's sake.] [Ahh, the payoff. I speak of hurts to the heart and compassion, so now come "master" pfal. ] [ BTW, I think we can now see some of the reasons why it's no big deal vpw abused his power. Supposedly, any man would have abused power....at least, I would have abused it....at least, I THINK I would have abused it.....it would have been nice to HAVE some power....] [ In brutal honesty, Mike, despite everything you've said before this, I am doubtful you would have raped your way thru the ranks if offered the SAME chance vpw made for himself. In that respect, I think you proceeded from a core of moral fiber that was superior to vpw's. ]

Originally posted by Oldiesman. [WordWolf's comments in boldface as usual.] Here's some:+ Folks getting born again, understanding that impact and being certain, to know that you know that you know you're heaven bound, no power from hell can stop you from going [uh, this is a common doctrine among Christians. Are you claiming vpw was unique in this?] + Folks knowing that Jesus Christ's death and suffering was the complete payment for man's sins [This is a common teaching among Christians. Are you saying vpw was unique in this?] + Folks understanding more about the bible, believing it's accuracy and integrity [ This is not uncommon among Christians-many do Bible teachings and studies.] + Folks understanding the difference between salvation by grace, and salvation by works [ Turned on a television sometime? This is a common doctrine among Christians. ] + Folks understanding from scripture what their rights (5 sonship rights) and responsibilities (preaching the Word), are in Christ [ First, you can't show "5 sonship rights" from the Bible that you just claimed was a big deal. Second, having rights in Christ-and corresponding responsibilities- again, are not uncommon among Christians.] + Folks understanding from scripture what it means to manifest holy spirit [ Not something taught in EVERY church, but taught in many places, as seen by BG Leonard, JE Stiles, et al. ] + Folks understanding from scripture that the dead are not alive now [ Taught in some places. Admittedly, not told in most. ] + Folks understanding from scripture the differences between "son of God" and "God the Son", and the various implications of both [ That evil Trinity again, cause of all the world's ills.] + Folks understanding about Jesus Christ our Passover, Jesus Christ our Promised Seed [ Understanding WHAT about him? That he paid the full price? That he fulfilled the promises? Those, again, are common. Some of the details vary. ] + Folks understanding, respecting and appreciating various other very good bible teachers, such as B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon, Jones, etc. etc. ... [ Let's see... other than Bullinger, you actually heard vpw teach we should read these other writers? He BURIED the names of Leonard, Stiles, and Jones, and pretended not to lift entire paragraphs from Kenyon and others. ] :)--> Ok, so what's the tradeoff? No Trinity, dead are not alive, in exchange for everything ELSE that came along with vpw.... Me, if I had to choose, I'd rather teach both doctrines, but not have to worry about lies, deception and rape by leadership, than face the fabled "good old days" when leadership wasn't caught plagiarizing and raping.

I have never expected to receive the Word taught from a sinless person. I would be waiting until Christ returned. Has anyon else ever waited for this? I think the REAL issues are the lies and deceit that followed veepee's life. VeePee presented himself as a man of God, allowed himself to be called the MOG, and made us think that he was tapped in to God like nobody else on earth had been since Jesus Christ himself. VeePee's words didn't line up with his pseudo life-style. That is why I disregard him and his teachings. I don't give him undue credit. After leaving twi, I learned that a minister has a responsibility to NOT present himself without flaws. They are human, and they are not superior to those who come to hear them teach. The church leaders need to be aware of their own weaknesses and need to grow and be open about their hurt, pain, failings, and humanity. Instead of "having it all together" and being insulated from confrontation and change, they are in a process of healing and opening up to their own safe people for support and accountability. TWI has a terrible problem with leadership trying to appear flawless and never making mistakes or admitting them. It doesn't allow them to be human. It started with VeePee's ego. It didn't end there. VeePee didn't spearhead the truth like he wanted us to believe. Truth comes from other sources also. The churches are not the evil places VeePee made them to be. They were just his competition. Even IF vpw spoke correctly in all his doctrine, (including how all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king), it would be sensible to examine and review all his doctrine from a healthy distance. If it was all CORRECT, an objective examination would only underscore its accuracy. If any of it is ERROR, an objective examination allows it to be revealed to the seeker.

So, "sex by the rules" is "a form of Mary worship". That's the "no fooling around" stuff that most religious-and moral nonreligious people- teach. According to Mike, it's a form of Mary worship. Never mind that it's in accordance with the Mosaic Law AND the New Testament. Also, "a few unwanted advances" is what most of us call "serial rape and molestations, premeditated and orchestrated." "Phony sex-purity religion"= "telling people not to engage in sex outside of marriage". So, translating the above sentence, Mike said "If I had to choose between my sisters (or future daughter) suffering thru an orchestrated, premeditated rape by the group leader, or getting caught up in a doctrine of abstaining from sex outside of marriage, I'd choose her being raped as less damaging. I've seen more damage from moral rules than from discarding rules. Do YOU have daughters? Do you indoctrinate them to abstain from sex outside of marriage?" Reread it carefully. That's what his substitutions said.

I was told about Jesus Christ all the time. I was told "The Word takes the place of the ABSENT Christ." Period. I was not to look to Jesus, author and finisher of the faith, but to leadership.

Aaah, the old bait-and-switch! Mike, you compared vpw with the people on this board. I said you hadn't dealt with them on anything resembling a fair footing. You then said the comparison was between vpw and the famous twig leaders you dismissed previously. Further, you decided- again, sight unseen-that anything I ever offered was insufficient. Wonder why nobody's eager to accept your word on hidden messages when your word on overt messages is so dishonest?

Ah, no one on this board ever got 1/2 the carte blanche to teach you as vpw. Level the playing field a little, standardize the rules a bit, and we might surprise the heck out of you.

Hm. You're right-I left that out. I'll have to do some tweaking...

Well, I hope the teens THERE learn something the teens in twi never learn.....

Well, I think it's SAD, anyway.

TSRTS, I hope you don't mind me ripping you off for today's signature.... :)-->

TheSongRemainsTheSame offered the following rewrite of the "but he taught me The Word" slogan.... "I do not care if he was a womanizer, a plagiarist, and whether he was a DR or TEACHER or operated the other 4 gift ministries. I do not care he hurt people and told lies and lived a tax-free live off the abs of those who actually believed his words and all the allegations of sexual abuse, and, and, and... Besides the aforementioned and all those who have come forward a testimony the OBVIOUS, Victor the Trickster and womanizer, a plagiarist, and installed LCM, HE TAUGHT ME THE WORD OF GOD and that's good enough for me."

Is it just me, or did he imply he's still involved with Momentus? I was under the impression that it was in his PAST, and he was trying to distance himself from it without saying it was ever anything but a brilliant idea. Now it seems like he's still involved.....

Let me agree, and add to that. I don't think vpw ever dreamed the organization would stop being spellbound by the name "wierwille". I don't think he ever conceived of a day Mrs W COULD ever be thrown out of her home.

BINGO.

So, reports of people's pcs crashing as a direct result of installing it-are they accurate? Does it happen often?

Well, since he died of cancer, and was exposing himself to carcinogenic substances every day (tobacco), and his lung tissue was showing no sign of damage, the carcinogens must have been building up elsewhere in his body, like his eye or something. Explains why the cancer hit his eye.... BTW, I don't object to him calling himself "a teacher". Even when I was IN, I objected to him calling himself "THE Teacher." See the difference? In the first case, he is one teacher. In the second case, he is the ONLY teacher. You might want to skim some of the threads in the archives where we had some fun with these things. GS 101 has a thread with a bunch of terms on it for people-you might want to skim that as well.

I've heard many conflicting reports about this thing. What can our computer gurus tell us about it?

Very interesting story, there, Uncle Hairy. Thanks for sharing it. =================== Moody has no records of vpw at ALL? That's funny-he's said on at least one occassion-on TAPE- that he'd taken every class they offered...I believe he specified they were every correspondence course they offered. Amazing how he could take so many and they would STILL not have records of him. Maybe-as someone suggested-he simply failed them all, or left them ALL incomplete. Either way, it would not technically be a lie, but it would be deceptively phrased, and it would NOT reflect well that he was unwilling or unable to finish classes he started. ========= Which was his MORE bogus title? A) "Doctor", with a degree that might have no more meaning than an honorary degree? B) "THE TEACHER", which is a title he spread around for himself, starting in the pfal class and proceeding from there?

Well, technically, he did submit work to an organization, graduate from it, and receive a Doctorate degree from that organization. So, technically speaking, he did get a Doctorate. HOWEVER, the standards for issuing PhDs is normally a LOT stricter than used by that organization, and it was never accredited. So, whether or not you think that degree is worth the paper it's printed on is a matter of opinion. It's not of equal authority, say, as a PhD from Princeton Theological would have been. That's where he DID earn a legitimate Master's degree.

Oh, since I forgot to get back to it, about this "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century" stuff.... First of all, that rests ENTIRELY on the (unverifiable) claims by vpw that God Almighty told him this and confirmed it with either a vision or a miracle of snow. vpw, on at least one occasion, was PROVEN to have lied about a miraculous snowstorm-people followed his claim and documented the disparity between his claim and reality. In fact, every claim of vpw's about some miracle have always been second-hand from his own mouth, like the Jubbulpore incident- which was NEVER repeated by him with similarly-crippled devotees to twi. Second, "The Word as it has not been known since the first century" sounds so pious and holy, but it is a MEANINGLESS PHRASE. It should be no secret that twi devotees-and most ex-twi survivors- know diddly-squat about the history of the church from the end of Acts until vpw saw it snow. (Similarly, they're usually in the dark about Christians outside their group even to this day.) A little research should prove what your common-sense should have told you..... Before printing presses, when Christians were being killed and hunted down, the first century church did not HAVE a New Testament in common. The books of the New Testament existed in limited copies in a few churches in a few places. It wasn't until the beginning of the second century that enough copies were made to begin to collect the New Testament together. (Mind you-those who lacked copies, say, of Matthew still believed it was Scripture- they just didn't have their own copies.) This is, of course, different from the various add-on, so-called "gospels" and "lost books" that sprang up 100 years after THAT-which nobody took seriously, ever. (Except a few gullibles, but aren't there always a few of those?) Actually, FF Bruce's "the Scrolls and the Parchments", which occasionally was carried in the way bookstore, would explain this to you much better than I could. So, in short, "The Word", as it was known in the First Century, was largely the Old Testament. Third, the first-century church, as easily seen from Scripture, bore little resemblance to twi. No centralized authority, no dictated teaching curriculums, no standardization, no MANDATORY TITHE, no inner circle with special privileges, no involvements in local politics, no creature comforts or room for a luxurious auditorium, etc. The one thing we have in common is running manifestations in meetings. Compared to everything else, that's hardly enough to say they were similar. They're more different than they are alike.

JAL in regular text... [WordWolf, as usual, in boldface .] [ I consider the testimonials the results of more "preaching to the choir". I do note, however, that you are NOT attempting to strongarm me into your positions. According to you, I'm free to come to my own decisions and join the ranks of the idiots who barely comprehend the printed words in the Bible if it so pleases me. Of course, that's not a direct quote, but look at how you've characterized ALL Christians NOT in your group. ]

How true this is, for me at least! I think JAL is doing a good job of making a case that CES is different from TWI, in practice at least. A lot of the doctrines are obviously the same, true, which won't change, unless the folks advocating change come across with some extra heavy beef that makes more sense than already researched doctrines most of us believe is the truth. Those who don't believe these doctrines are always free to go elsewhere and enjoy other doctrines if they feel the other doctrines are more correct. I don't sense any condemnation or arrogance from JAL in that light, even though he still believes he's right. I don't have a problem with him believing he's right and saying so. He's got that right, just like anyone else. :)--> Actually, I think a fairly strong case is being made that, although there are many differences between twi and ces/stfi, many of the CRITICAL distinctions remain fundamentally the same- either unchanged, or with marginal changes that can easily erase over time and become what they supposedly abhor. I don't have a problem with JAL believing he's right-we ALL believe we're right. My issue is that he believes the gap between ces/stfi and all other Christians is a broad, yawning chasm with him and truth on one side, and most Christians and superstition on the other side. You don't perceive that as arrogance. I do agree that I have not seen CONDEMNATION from JAL. I think his opinion is that, if people want to leave and embrace some doctrine he considers horse-and-buggy thinking, they're free to do so, but he'll just disapprove to himself. I don't think that, in and of itself, is a bad position.

JAL's response quoted in parts. [WordWolf's comments in boldfaceas usual.] John, in some ways, you've come a long way, in others, you've barely moved.....