WordWolf

Rafael, in case you missed it, Mike reiterated his previous assertion that you were a latecomer, and, as such, are unqualified to read vpw's books and actually comprehend what they were about. If you had arrived in the "good old days" like Jerry Barrax and Zixar and Research Geek and Goey and ex cathedra and Mike, no doubt you'd have no problem coming to exactly the same conclusions Mike has, and probably would be quite contrite for daring to suggest that vpw's books were the work of man, not the work of God, who now took this chance to fix all the problems with His previous book, known to many as the Bible. Just thought you (and the peanut gallery) might have blinked and missed that. Consider this a recap after the commercial break. Carry on.

Weeeeelllll.... If you're trying to stretch interpretation so that even the slightest wiggle-room is enough to let vpw off the hook (which is a legit position), then, yes, this would be enough of an excuse to drop Error 1. You want my opinion, though... We can make a MUCH stronger case that the Acts verse in no way addressed his point. My take on the matter is that if vpw was right and Acts "proved" it, it was by accident. Otherwise, why not just cite the verse in Acts? Heck, why not just toss it on the verse-list for that session and let reviewers look at it then? Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to run. The sun's coming up.

Ok, I can see where you were going now. I think the "metonymy" thing will probably not be a major issue for a few reasons. It's technical. It won't hold interest in many people, and some of those won't be able to fully understand it. So, either side, if cleverly-phrased, could "convince" most people who WANTED to believe in it. It is on that principle that the Research Dept got an easy ride for a LONG time. Of course, feel free to pursue this-I just wanted to point that out.

Over the last page, I can't tell whose posts I like better- Shazdancer's or Sirguessalot. (*declares a tie*) ------------- Mike, a few posters have tried to point something out to you, which you seem to be ignoring. I'm going to borrow a page from your own operations manual, and dumb it down from you. meek master: "There is the natural and the spiritual. There is a contrast and a great difference between the two." everybody else, in harmony:"NO SH!T!" ------------- Why did you need anyone to point that out to you? "Well, the distinction is important!" Yes, but so is green traffic light from red traffic light. Since the distinction is SELF-EVIDENT, few people lose sleep over the dichotomy. ------------------------------------ Reminder to the newcomers: Unless Mike has reconsidered his position (which I hope happened), Mike believes that the Bible which was so lauded in pfal and in countless teachings, books and tapes by vpw is essentially useless in conveying what God wants us to know. That job is exclusively handled by vpw's works, centered around vpw's books. Mike seems certain that the clearly-plaigiarized pages in those works were NOT plaigiarized. The books, instead, were developed during some meetings as a joint-venture between God and vpw. (The "absent Christ" remained "absent".) Mike believes this to be true because he believes that God gave vpw a promise of an exclusive contract, and sealed it with some sort of miracle. (The snow on the gas pumps, and the 1942 promise.) Absolutely NOTHING must be allowed to sully the good name of vpw's perfect materials, which are so good us logical people keep confusing it for passable writing. Mike's devotion to his preciousss is all-encompassing. When he closes his eyes, he sees it before him, like a great unlidded eye, or a circle of fire before him. (Hm, that sounds familiar.) Thus, everything it says holds great promises, and secrets await the one who decodes the introductions, acknowledgements, and copyright dates. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Zix, have you forgotten everything you learned from the groupthink? Never apologize (implies you are less than perfect), and, if caught, never admit to an error. (Oh, wait-that's not from the old groupthink, that's the new groupthink.) CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

*plays Revolution #9 backwards* Hey, there's secret messages hidden in this! --------- Mike, if you looked a the cracks in sidewalk concrete long enough, you would find patterns in it. That's a hard-wired function in the brain- pattern recognition. However, like any identification program, it can glitch, and misidentify stuff. People were killed in Europe when villagers sought to find the person responsible for bad things happening to them-like bad weather or disease in crops. They refused to accept that there WAS no guiding pattern, and kept looking until they "found" one. So, people were killed for "witchcraft". Even Sigmund Freud, whose entire career was based on finding patterns said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." There's a lesson, there. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Vickles, let me rephrase my point with an analogy I think we can all relate to. You walked into the room while the tv show was 1/2-way over, and had caught up on the plot within 30 seconds. This means, partly, you're sharp, but largely, that the tv show wasn't that hard to understand. (My point being that new arrivals who haven't had time to dislike Mike yet find him transparent- he might want to consider that everybody else might be right, after all...) -------------------------------- I think part of me comes to these threads the same way some people spectate a car crash. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Let's see.. A) secret messages hidden because of the Adversary B) secret messages hidden intentionally by God/vpw (as Mike sees it, interchangeable) --------------------------------------- These secret messages are mainly about the natural/spiritual realm distinctions. Mike, this may come as a shock to you, but there are quite a few specialists in this field. If I forgot half of what I learned in the field, I'm confident I would STILL know it better than you, which makes me less enthused about seeing you dig out a "hidden" message on it. That's neither a boast, nor idle. Further, there are Christians on the GSC who know more on the subject than I do, and LOTS of Christians who never heard of the farm or vpw who are well-versed in the subject. Actually, while you've been rereading vpw's books, we HAVE discussed this. You'll have a pretty lean harvest from this search, Mike. Compared to some places, twi was pretty lightweight on this subject. That's because vpw didn't have any good source-material to photocopy from. So, I suppose, looking for details on this subject, one MUST "pad" it with hidden messages, backwards records, and other cabalistic methods. Frankly, even WITH the photocopying vpw did, I STILL don't think he had more than a moderate understanding of the subject. (I've been better, and I've SEEN better than I've BEEN.) -------------------- Mike, you might wish to retain the option of reassessing your position. Vickles, whoever he or she is, just walked in and seems to have made a full appraisal of you. Those of us who have been around have a more detailed conclusion. (I say this without rancor.) ---------------- CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

P.S. Based on my just-completed survey of 15,000 men, I conclude that menstrual cramps do not exist. 0% of the respondents has ever had them. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

I don't know or care who your studies polled. I DO know who it wasn't, and it wasn't a LOT of people I know all over cyberspace. For any of them, knowing there's a full moon makes little difference. They get "full moon fever" even if they're CERTAIN that evening is nowhere near the full moon. I rarely look for statistics backing the results of stuff I deal with all the time. I think the "bigfoot" sensation is nonsense. However, if the guy showed up once a month, picked my lock, and spent the evening eating my cheetos and watching tv while I sat there videotaping him, I'd reassess my position. So, go ahead and tell me that, statistically, we're all affected by the placebo effect. Go ahead and tell us it's psychosomatic. Go ahead and tell me anything you like on the subject- you can just dismiss it and go about your business. I tried dismissing it as psychological. In fact, I had successfully done so. 28 days later, I did it again. 28 days later, I did it AGAIN. 28 days later, I did it AGAIN. 28 days later, I wondered if I had jumped to a hasty conclusion. 28 days after that, I stopped dismissing it, and took it into account. My months have gotten easier since then. How and why does it happen? I honestly don't understand and can't explain how I can send e-mail over the internet, but I can and I do. As Zixar pointed out, I probably don't have any "correct" scientific explanation for it. I must deal with it anyway. People had wrong ideas about how gravity worked before it was properly explained. However, even the uneducated seemed able to work around their incomplete understanding of the subject. Fine, I'm an uninformed plebian on the subject. I DO, however, have a lot of the experience of WHAT, if not properly, HOW or WHY. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Someone should have told the writers on "Baywatch" that the moon doesn't REALLY affect the tides, I suppose.... CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Zix, you're honestly certain there's no biological basis for all the activity? CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

The moon's gravity affects the tides. Humans are mostly water. (We are all THAT close to drowning.) Even without the placebo effect, that accounts for plenty. (Like why I've been getting so much done tonight.) CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

I'm thinking it's largely a matter of semantics- like being DESIGNATED heir versus receiving your inheritance. (See the end of Hebrews 1.) CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

As much as I'd like to add this to the pile, I'm inclined against it. Technically, those under the law still don't have eternal life per se-that will come with Judgement Day and the resurrections. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

I'd prefer it, but someone keeps spraying invective like a skunk. (No pun intended.) CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

(In deference to an idea that travelled well on another thread, I decided against forming my own religion, but chose to set up my own denomination. It stands for "Certain Lewd Fellows of the Baser Sort". Someone came up with that name on the old GSC, and I thought it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.) CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

Seaspray: A) Please add some steak to that sizzle. "More matter with less art." B) You've succeeded in demonstrating rather poor manners across the board. For all the cricitism and charges I give Mike, we have yet to devolve into name-calling and screaming matches. You've not demonstrated this same level of maturity. I actually was going to advocate giving you a bit of slack and seeing if you'd rise to the occassion, but I'll save myself the trouble. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

I won't address subject matter to much. I WILL recommend: A) be brief, clear and straightforward. If you get complicated, they're likely to just chuck the letter. Ditto a 20-pager. B) be loving. As an outie, you're supposed to be incapable of it. C) Be positive. Again, as an outie, you're supposed to be inferior and suffering now by comparison, if not a full-blown "greasespot by midnight." D) Be open to reestablishing SOME form of communication. They could use some space and time to think things over, and someone to think them over with. E) Present things and give them time and room to come to their own conclusions on them. Otherwise they may just be trading blind obedience to the bod for blind obedience to you. ----------------- As to subject matter, that depends on the specifics. I'll leave that to you and God. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

In case anyone thinks the question "what's the difference between the Bible and the Word of God as defined in PFAL" hasn't been beaten to its death already, I'll chime in. --------------------------------------------- From PFAL Session I-"The Greatest Secret in the World", Listening with a Purpose, Question 1. 'What is the greatest secret in the world today?' Answer, as given in harmony in each class, as quoted from the cue cards used by vpw... "The greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God." This also appears in the Advanced Class Review books. Those who can recite large sections of PFAL should all be able to chant that in harmony. Those who can only recite small snippets of PFAL should all be able to chant that in harmony. Since it's in the opening minutes of Session I, and is the TITLE of said session, anyone serious about "mastering PFAL", one would imagine, SHOULD encounter this material VERY, VERY EARLY in their efforts to "master" it. (If one does not start at the top of the first session, where DOES one start?) Of course, the opening segment also declares that PFAL is "a class on KEYS" not "the revealed Word and Will of God" , which MIGHT also pose a problem if one has decided to dogmatically ignore PFAL's internal testimony about itself. CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!

"It's highly repugnant for you to insist I return to something that I rationally rejected." Mike! We agree on something! Of course, I rationally rejected the nonsense that any man's uncredited eclectic ripoff can possibly equal the greatness of God's wonderful matchless Word- as vpw often referred to the book you so blithely spurn as "remnants". I think nobody's responded to your question about how we'd respond if you started solving "the errors of PFAL" because we're sure you're neither able nor willing to do so. I haven't formulated a response to the question "what will I do if Osama bin Laden moves next door to me" either-I don't expect to see it in my lifetime. Honestly, if you TRIED to solve several and FAILED each time, I'd have more respect for you than I do know-it would at least show you have the courage of your convictions. Solve even one and I think the PFAL Nitpickers Guild will be impressed. Personally, I expect them to perfect that cold fusion thing and stem cell regeneration before that, but, hey. I can be surprised. Anyway, we've documented-right under your nose- plenty of reasons we logically conclude PFAL is not worthy of being "mastered" any more than DuelMonsters is worthy of being "mastered". You've claimed to have logically concluded the opposite-how about some evidence of the logic process you used? I mean, stated in plain English, not hinted at, alluded to and otherwise obfuscated.

Actually, vpw disagreed with Bullinger about which administrations/dispensations were which. They both totalled the results as 7. vpw claimed that #4 was "Christ" administration- which, apparently, lasted under 1 year, and was nearly indistinguishable from the Law Administration, #4. Then vpw said #5 was Grace (Pentecost to the Gathering Together), # 6 was the Appearing (Gathering Together thru the Apocalypse, ending in the end of Revelation 20), and the Final, of Glory Administration, #7, was everything after that. Bullinger had written that # 7 was the Glory Dispensation, also. (Personally, I prefer the term "stewardship" to "administration" or "dispensation".) Bullinger, however, had written #4 was the Law, which vpw appears to have copied. However, Bullinger seems to have agreed with Jesus that "not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law, til all be fulfilled", and that it wasn't "finished" until the crucifixion. That means the "Christ administration" is the last year of the Law "administration". Then Grace becomes #4, and the Appearing becomes #5. Between #5 and # 7 comes the Millenial reign, lasting 1,000 years. Having had a chance to review Bullinger before making his own statements, why, then, did vpw renumber #5 & #6 with no real explanation, and certainly less justification than Bullinger's named ones? Here are, as I see it, the possibilities. A) "God told him Bullinger was wrong." (A la Mike) B) vpw was obsessed with coming up with his own spin on things, so he renamed the oikonomia and renumbered them. C) vpw was so obsessed with making everything fit his clockwork construct that he juggled the numbers until Grace =#5. D) B & C.

"Finally obey our Father in the Word." A) I never went out to disobey God OR His Word. Even if everybody here whipped out all my sins, I've this confidence-that I've a better track record on doing "my utmost for his highest" than certain leaders who felt free to exploit their positions (to name but one problem). B) Our Father in the Word. Ooooo, our Father in the Word. A nice title to bestow homage and worship on a man. Find anyplace in the Bible where it says we're supposed to CALL anyone that? Abraham is our Father in believing (Romans 4). Our Father is in heaven-God Almighty, once and for all. Was Christ divided? Did Paul baptize in the name of Paul? Even vpw admitted on tape that he didn't die for us. "...but I didn't die for you. *man's shout from offsides* It was Jesus Christ! You said it, man!..." The one who gave out that himself was some great one was Simon the sorcerer. Philip preached that CHRIST was some great one.

Yes, I agree. If he wanted to teach the principle, the healing of Naaman (to name one) would have served better. Since he picked an example that didn't illustrate his STATED principle, he must have been following an UNSTATED rule in using it. Something like "see how evil established religion gets?" would fit the bill. Then again, Brutus is an honourable man. -->