WordWolf

*snickers*

I counted them among the people who reached retirement age. I'm guesstimating as HIGH a retention rate as I can. You can guesstimate 75% retention every 4 years under exactly the same conditions I guesstimated 85% retention every 4 years. ================ Of course, your lowest figure (75%), if correct, would mean that the membership rate in one year would be cut by 1/4 its CURRENT rate every 4 years (roughly, every presidential election.)

Anyone ever hear this one used by someone who was run over by a truck or something? I know they used it on women in abusive relationships where their husband beat them, so long as the husband was in twi, and ESPECIALLY if he had "juice" in twi.

I'd say it approached a TIE. With such a mismatch between opponents- one man against a corporation with lawyers and things- that a TIE resulted is an UPSET. It's about the same as a game between a Little League Baseball team playing the NY Yankees in a fair match (nobody holding back) at Yankee Stadium (for charity, of course), and the game being won by the Yankees- after it went into OVERTIME and a TENTH and ELEVENTH inning. The next day, around every watercooler, everyone would be raving about how good that Little League team was, even the Yankees diehard fans. So, in English, the big, buff organization was unable to crush the one guy in its path. After trying its best to do that.

Well that is the part you got right Shaz. The reason you are struggling with the other parts (like a lot of people are) is because you haven't learned that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself. [WTF has taken it upon himself to analyze Shaz' entire life based on a few posts. Amazing. Shaz KNOWS she can't change other people. That's clear from previous posts of hers, or if you speak to her for a few minutes face-to-face. She has learned many lessons in life. ] The Japanese are aware of these three powers - the power of the sword, the power of the jewel, and the power of the mirror. The sword symbolizes the power of weapons (fighting). The jewel symbolizes the power of money. There is a degree of truth to the saying, "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules." The mirror symbolizes the power of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, according to Japanese legend is the most treasured of the three. But when it comes to life pushing you around, most people rely on one or both of the first two powers. But if they used the "power of the mirror" (the knowlege of self) they would ask, "Does this make sense?" All to often instead of trusting their inner wisdom most people go along with the crowd. They reason they do things is because everybody else does it. They conform rather than question. The reason they don't question is because the fear of being ostracised, the fear of standing out, the fear of criticism, the fear of ridicule, the fear of being an outcast. [ Technically true of many people. ] It is that same fear, the fear of ostracism that causes people to conform to the crowd and not question commonly accepted opinions or popular trends. I see it here all the time. _ [ Technically INcorrect of the majority of the posters here. To post here at all is to buck an establishment. Further, the amount of bickering seen on some relatively minor points demonstrates the rather individualistic nature of posters here, MOST of whom openly question authority ALL THE TIME. That was a necessary part of their growth after leaving twi, you see. Of course, limiting your exposure to a few threads defending vpw is HARDLY the best way to get an INFORMED OPINION on posters. We had brief arrivals with less strident agendas than you who learned a lot more in less time, because they did not limit themselves so. ] And it is the fear of being different that prevents most people from seeking new ways to solve their problems._ That is why the Japanese value the power of the mirror the most, for it is only when we humans look into the mirror do we find the truth. But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self. [ If you think that issuing warnings about evil is useless, you have NO purpose at the GSC. If YOU are correct, then NOBODY's life was EVER changed from the information offered here, NOBODY avoided twi because of a wealth of information here and all over the internet, warning about them. It would not surprise me to hear you believe this, but it's an untenable belief for most of us. That requires a very large "leap of faith". ] Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe". [Warning others about bad people is considered a necessary part of any HEALTHY society. That's why GOD instituted a practice where certain people are delegated to perform EXACTLY THAT FUNCTION. If you think it's such a futile exercise, take it to GOD ALMIGHTY and tell him that you find the appointment of PROPHETS to have been a wasteful exercise for well over 20 centuries, thru the entire Old and New Testament time periods. You HAVE been reading your Bible, right? There's prophets ALL OVER IT. ] The reason people say that is out of fear. ["How long halt you between two opinions? If the LORD is God, then follow Him, if Baal is God, then follow him." (I Kings 17.) According to you, Elijah the Tishbite must have been a coward. Interestingly enough, vpw taught that one of the most important traits FOR a prophet to have, one that is REQUIRED for prophets to have, is COURAGE. Prophets face up to the rest of the people as a WHOLE, and must disagree with them, telling them bad news. So, vpw would disagree with your statement about people who issue warnings. As you also see, I'm not afraid to learn from anything he taught, which disproves the blind labels you seek to slap on me. ] You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us. [ "Don't get involved with that Jim Jones guy. He's not a true servant of God. Don't get involved with that 'Heaven's Gate' group, they're not in line with God." For the people who heeded those warnings, they got to live. For the people who "bucked the crowd" and went to Jonestown or the Heaven's Gate compound, "standing out from the crowd" meant ingesting poison and dying. ] The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships. [ Some people are afraid of stepping out from behind the twi framework and seeing if God really does bless people more outside that framework. I agree that refusal to change, for reasons of fear, is NOT healthy and can waste a life.] [Of course, some respond to a soft word of reproof, and some to a thousand stripes. That is their own choice. ]

-or- (snip) (Scroll up the page for the full post.) As almost everyone here has no difficulty seeing, Goey's "baby" and Oldies' "baby" are NOT the same. The difference can be seen in ONE thing. Goey considers the SOURCE of QUALITY education on God's Word (THE BIBLE) to be insignificant. If he's learning QUALITY, he doesn't care about the source. If there's adulterations and error that reduce the efficacy of what he's being taught, or the teachers are utilizing a suspect framework designed from deceptive practices and hiding a secret agenda, Goey will split. Goey considers the minimum requirements set out in the BIBLE as to what a teacher of God is expected to say, do and teach as a REQUIREMENT, and a PREREQUISITE before the teacher opens his mouth. ============ Oldies, on the other hand, will view those same teachings as "suspect" or "inferior" if offered completely independently of a framework containing vpw, twi or pfal. That's his privilege, and he's free to be prejudiced against any other type of teaching all he wants. It is NOT, however, the same thing Goey believes. This is NOT news to Goey. This is NOT news to WordWolf. By now, this either IS or is NOT news to Oldiesman. If it IS news to Oldiesman, his posts and reading here have reflected a divorce from content and deliberations contained here. He's retained NOTHING of substance from years of posting. (Compare that to JustThinking, who arrived within the past year and has claimed considerable benefits from the things Oldies has not.) That means Oldiesman has been intellectually dishonest and disrespectful in most or all of his dealings here. If it is NOT news to Oldiesman, then Oldies knows full well there is a difference, and Oldies is engaging in deliberate deceptions and lies in his posts. What possible motive could there be for such a thing? Oh, there's possibilities like deceiving the new arrivals who come here for truth and help in healing, and things like that. There's other possibilities involving a psychoanalysis of Oldies worldview. Of course, they are possibilities, not a guarantee. They seem the more likely explanations, at any rate. =================== In comparing the posting history of Oldiesman and JustThinking (who didn't ask me to drag him or her in this and I apologize if this offends), I am reminded of a saying I heard once. It is said that, no matter how smooth the road, some lag behind, and no matter how stony the path, some march to the front. We all determine the rate at which we heal from our exposure to twi. Some determine a zero rate, or a negative rate. That is their right and privelege (in the US, anyway.) They do NOT have the right to determine that others not heal, however. =========== Intellectual dishonesty is NOT a good thing. Deliberate deception is even WORSE. ===========

So far, so good. What "basic truths?" And who are these "some folks" that say it's wrong to believe them? ... Same old stuff Oldies. Folks say one thing and you hear another. So far as I can tell, no one here has ever stated that TWI's evil deeds are cause for renouncing any of the "basic truths" of Christianity. Can you give one clear example where anyone has suggested that?As you stated, "truth is truth". So "truth" from the mouth of an evildoer would still be "truth" - like in the case of many of the teachings of Wierewille/PFAL or Martindale/WAP. The moral character of the person speaking/teaching the truth is irrelevant to the truth itself. Wierwille's sex perversion has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Oldies, I think your argument amounts to little more than a strawman - either intentional (since you have been told this numerous times), or because you suffer from a case of chronic and possibly incurable selective hearing. You are arguing and complaing againt something that I think few if any at all have ever said. No one has ever said that you should renounce your Christianity (basic truths) because of the evils of TWI/Wierwille/Martindale. Not even the atheists and agnostics here promote that kind of logic. Now, some folks have said that because of Wierwille's "sins", (Adultery, plagairism, etc) that certain doctrines he taught may be suspect and need to be re-examined. Others have suggested that it may be helpful to throw it all out and start over - not in the sense of renouncing Christianity or "basic truths", (the baby) but in the sense of temporarily setting aside those things that were taught that are mostly specific or unique to our TWI experience, and then beginning anew - without bias and with the understanding that some things may end up being retained and others may end up being discarded. Oldies, what is your "baby?" Mine is is God, Jesus Christ, the Gospel of salvation through Christ, love (and maybe a few others "basic truths".) Now if one's "baby" (basic truths) amount to blindly espousing the teachings of one man/group - doctrines like the law of believing, four crucified, the six denials of Peter, mastubation is the original sin, or any other such doctrines/dogmas specific to VPW or TWI - then I just don't know what to tell them - except that as Christians I think they are missing the boat. It's not that these things are necessarily wrong, it's just that they hardly constitute "the baby" and some of these (along with a few others) could possibly be bathwater. Again Oldies, what is your "baby"? This was what Goey said about his "baby". In context and its entirety, page 1.

WTH's posts, WordWolf's replies in boldface and brackets as normal.] Nah, I wouldn't say that about her or anybody else, but I would say the truth. [Oldies called her a liar. He claimed he didn't. I explained how he even did it during his protestations that he did NOT. This quote from me was ripped from its context, and was NOT addressed to WTF. Doing this is as intellectually honest as using 1/2 a verse of Bible to claim that the Bible says "there is no God". ] Your a bunch of actors (hypocrites) acting out and playing like you have honor integrity and faith when you have little or none at all. [Considering this "analysis" comes from a person whose only demonstrated ability is to vilify anyone who shines a light on vpw's evil deeds, this doesn't concern me much. A neo-nazi would view me as "inferior" by his definition, but I would not be concerned about THAT, either. WTF has neither integrity, honour NOR a healthy form of "faith", and has projected his own weaknesses on those whose abilities he is unable to perceive, both by inclination, lack of experience and training, and lack of inborn talent. ] On Oct. 17 Wordwolf says this regarding VPW: But then changes his tune real quick about VPW. Wooohoooooo... --> [ And yet...he doesn't show a quote of me "changing my tune real quick about vpw. Can it be that the label he seeks to slap on me has no evidence to support it? Can it be there is a different reason other than objective truth to make such a claim about me? Does a bear sleep in the woods? --> ] But here in lies the problem: WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. _ The winner mentality. _ As Word Wolf replies: [...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ] _ The loser (victim) mentality. _ What is WordWolf talking about? He's talking about the victim mentality. [Amazing how WTF can miss several paragraphs of my explanation and seize upon something isolated from its context to attempt to validate his point. He missed the discussion of 9/11, the wreck of the Andrew J. Barbieri ferry, and so on, to claim that discussing tragedies, evil actions and suffering can only be doneto b*tch and moan. He's back on the famous "Blame The Believer" (BTB) fallacy. Apparently I was right, and WTF WOULD have told Christopher Reeve to "suck it up" after his paralysis. He also missed my discussion of GOOD people and BAD people's legacies living on, for good or ill.] I'd say all you got was a taste of life Rascal (and I'd say the same thing to others who are in the same boat) -- and life is the best teacher of all - not VPW or TWI. The only problem is life does not talk to you, it just sort of pushes you around. But each push is life saying, _"WAKE UP! There's something I want you to learn."_ If you learn life's lessons, you'll do well. If not, life will only continue to push you around. There's a couple things people do about it though. Some just let life push them around. They "suck-it-up" (if you want to put it that way) and live life playing-it-safe - doing all the right things at the right time (acting pious and religious) but they never take any risks. HYPOCRITES! Then others get angry and push back. Only problem is they push back against other people, whether it is their boss, their husband, their wife - or perhaps a ministry or some minister. HYPOCRITES! Yeah well, life pushes all of us around. Some give up. Others fight. There's just a few who learn the lesson and decide to move on. Some welcome life pushing them around, but only a few. To these few, it means they need and want to learn something. They learn and move on. [ In other words, when someone embezzles, plagiarizes, rapes, molests, and so on, chalk it up as a "learning experience", and move on. Above all, do NOT, repeat, do NOT, warn others who might suffer from exposure to evil men or evil deeds. Elie Wiesel has wasted his life! ] Most however quit (there's a lot of people who quit TWI, but they aren't here discussing TWI, VPW or LCM - their just quiters) and then there are a few of you who only like to fight. [ Again, you see people who "only like to fight." We see people who are adamant about exposing evil deeds kept hidden, which assists in the healing of some, and is information that PREVENTS the suffering of others. "In vain is the net set in sight of any bird." (Proverbs.) Then again, some people are SO determined to maintain their illusion of an idyllic Shangri-la that they must act wildly to defend it. Rather than simply avoid websites that expose the truth, they go out of their way to attempt to misrepresent personal testimony, re-conceal the evil deeds committed by some, and otherwise attempt to legitimize their delusions. To those few of you, I say, it's a free country. If you seek to embrace a lie or embrace slavery, that is your choice as an adult. However, you are NOT entitled to override our OWN liberties, and place blinders back on our eyes, and shackles on our wrists. Your rights end where ours begin. If that does not meet with your approval, do not come here and SEEK US OUT.] If you don't learn life's lesson, you'll continue blaming others - VPW, TWI, LCM, or your job, your boss, and everything and everyone else for all the problems that life throws at you. The worst part of it is there are plenty of people just like you who live out their life hoping for some "big break" (or for some other spiritual guru) that will come along and solve all their problems. But if all your doing is fighting and blaming someone else - you still haven't learned life's lesson! [Now, that's funny in a darkly ironic way. WTH wants to warn us about being victims to some spiritual guru offering simple answers to life with ONE hand, and exhorting us to return to an exposed spiritual guru who peddled simple answers with the OTHER hand. ]

True enough. However, I DID find at least one thread where he called her a liar outright. Check out the "If Trinitarians are so bad" thread I bumped, page 8.

Oh, I don't know.... A few will drop dead, according to death statistics. A few will reach retirement age and will no longer be able to give 15% of their income, so they will be dropped, as these humans will now be seen as liabilities. A few are in marriages with a blind wayfer. Either that person coming around, or a separation or a divorce, will free them. A few may face an "AHA!" moment, whether from an experience in twi, something they saw on tv or the internet, something another human showed them, or divine revelation they didn't reject. Keep in mind that kids who escape can rescue the minds of their parents- twi is aware of this and have been for years. Thus, I'd say 85% at MOST of current diehards will still be there in 4 years, and this will be a repeating cycle, unless something else kicks the slumbering bear again like a class-action lawsuit or something. Their ability to attract new member is currently crippled by the availability of information about twi from other sources, especially those of us with direct experience who refuse to be silent.

I disagree: you've made false accusations, assumptions, and false conclusions... Here's one: "I have no respect for the opinion of one who`s only problem with twi is that it hit him in the pocket book." That is being dishonest. When did I ever make that comment. You're false accusing again. You are a false accuser. Who is the source of these accusations? What attacks have I made on the innocent? You are a false accuser. Who is the source of these railing false accusations? If folks in twi and offshoots think that the trinitarians are engaging in idolatry, I think they're wrong. On the other side of the coin, if trinitarians think that non-trinitarians are not christians, they are equally wrong. You know something, I never heard of VPW accusing trinitarians of not being saved, of not being Christian; but I have heard accusations of the reverse. But as for my own opinion, I don't think trinitarians are bad at all, in fact I just had a very nice conversation with a woman who's part of the Assemblies of God church, she's a very fine woman and she invited me to her church. I only wonder what will happen when I disclose I don't believe in the trinity ... I bumped this up so that those who want to see Oldiesman call Rascal a liar outright can review page 8. I quoted a post of it so that if the original post is EDITED, this post will have a record of its unedited contents. =================== Oldiesman seems to have a selective memory of the accusations he's made, which is only fair, since he has a selective memory of the contents of OUR posts. Having a selective memory of his OWN posts is evenhanded. Dishonest and disrespectful, but evenhanded. The bias is thus in the selectivity, not in the memory of one set of posts.

Actually, I'm thinking, yes, that's the headcount..... However, I'd adjust the numbers as follows.... A) "nearly 4000" means "over 3000" people by phone. That includes any new people, children of any age because they ARE "people", and family members who were dragged along because it was a special occasion. So, "nearly 4000" probably would be "2000" by anyone else's counting. Dang-Steve! and I came up with the same number for entirely different reasons. So, 2000-2,100 wayfers by phone. B) "Over 1,000" on-site. That's 1001 people or therabouts, I think we can agree. (I'm taking it as a given that twi isn't just manufacturing the numbers entirely, which, knowing them, is a jump. Therefore, this is a MAXIMUM number.) That number includes: 1) bod and any family still speaking to them 2) staff on-grounds 3) family of staff on-grounds, local and speaking to them 4) all wayfers within a 3-5 hour drive 5) all prospects said wayfers can talk into coming 6) children under 12 So, I'm say, at MOST, that number represents about 700 wayfers, plus people willing to show up "for a special occasion". So, my best guesstimate of current numbers? Between 2,700 and 2,800 people of age 12 or older, worldwide, officially affiliated with twi. The only Limb meeting I ever remember attending had numbers comperable to that among the people who showed up. (Which was NOT the entire state, of course.) That was in the mid-80s. So, at most, I'd say 2800 as of that date. I'm supposing a few people may have hemorrhaged from the group since then. :D-->

Oldies said to Rascal: "I never called you or anyone a liar. Produce the quote please. I HAVE called you a false accuser, which is exactly what you are doing right now." WordWolf replied: "You're claiming her personal testimony is false. YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR." Oldies replied to that: "When did I say her personal testimony is false?..." WordWolf replies again..... [Her personal testimony IS what she stated. It includes an indictment and accusation of wrongdoing by that evil ringleader, vpw. You claim her "accusation" is "false", which means that you're saying her "personal testimony"-which is the body of her accusation and indictment of wrongdoing-is not true. You're saying that her "accusation" is not "true". YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. You know, most humans don't have these sorts of problems, because they don't torture the English language and strive to ascribe alternate meanings to words to fit their convenience. YOU JUST CALLED RASCAL A LIAR AGAIN, in the process of claiming you didn't. ]

[ You're claiming her personal testimony is false. YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. ]

Originally posted by WTH. [WordWolf in boldface.] Perhaps that's because you (and even others) prefer to mind the things of the flesh and not the things of the spirit [No, that's because God's Word clearly marks the standard a man of God is supposed to live up to. One supposed man of God miserably failed to live up to it, and ruined some people's lives. It is not ungodly to use standards given by God for the offices under God to determine if the officeholder is godly. To NEGLECT to do that for any reason- like "but I learned so much from him!" is to place CARNAL views before what God SAID to do. ] - and I am especially refering to those who really love to go around wearing the "minister" tag in the Christian church and wish to be recognized as one. The apostle Paul wasn't perfect even after he was born again. That is why Galatians 4:13,14 says... _Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. _ Some have gone so far as to remark that the apostle Paul was a "changed man" after being born again - implying he never made any mistakes after he was born again. [ Paul WAS a changed man. Haven't you read ANYTHING? This disingenuous position of yours- that Paul was either carnal or perfect- is a dodge and a strawman. NOBODY expected PAUL to be PERFECT, EITHER. WHat they expected of PAUL, and PETER, and TIMOTHY, and PHILEMON, and any other MAN OF GOD, was that they meet or exceed the minimum standards of conduct established by God. There are no accounts of Paul raping his way thru the churches on his journies. There's no record of Paul loving luxuries. There's no record of Paul lying and defrauding people. Do you know why? It was NOT because Paul was perfect. We all KNOW Paul was not perfect. PAUL knew PAUL was not perfect. However, Paul exceeded the minimum standards of behaviour and codes of conduct written by GOD, and Paul was zealous to seek perfection. Paul was not perfect, but he had a batting average in the acceptable range. ] That isn't the testimony of God's Word. The truth is the apostle Paul never let the infirmites of his flesh bug him or keep him from teaching the truth of God's Word [i'm sure the acts of his flesh really bugged the self-righteous Pharisees though. They always seem to come around whenever someone is speaking the truth of God's Word] as he kept preaching the gospel despite the infirmities of his flesh. [Ooooo-that's supposed to be a clever "dig" at the rest of us-to depict us as self-righteous and as Pharisees. Did anyone feel a sting from that one? What's next-claiming I'm a lousy clogdancer? ] I'll never understand why people want to bring up the works of a dead minister - someone who died nearly 20 years ago. People bring up the works of godly men centuries after they die, as examples and figures to emulate. Just counting modern times, I'd have loved to have learned under BG Leonard for a week, or George Mueller for a week. These men are shining examples of men who loved God, made a difference, and exceeded the standards established by GOD.] [ On the other hand, names like Caligula, Lucretia Borgia, and Benito Mussolini come down thru the decades and centuries as well. Charles Manson is safely behind bars-but everyone in the US knows his name. Why? What he did is old news......HOWEVER, each has set his own life as an example of the evils that men do-exemplars of cruelty and insanity. People still talk about Manson and Mussolini, in particular, depending on where you go, because THE EVIL THAT THEY DID STILL AFFECTS SOME PEOPLE. It's been a few years since the 9/11 attacks. Thousands of people died-in the Twin Towers, in the Pentagon, in the planes, in a field in Pennsylvania ("let's roll".) A few days ago marked the one-year anniversary of a horrible disaster involving a Staten Island Ferry. The pilot made an error in judgement, and his medication put him to sleep-he collapsed onto the steering wheel while the ferry was at speed. His supervisor made an error of judgement-only the pilot was in the control cabin, when 3 people should be there. The ferry crashed into the dock, and the side of the boat was sheered away. Several people were killed, several lost limbs. (The pilot went straight home and attempted suicide.) Now, with the first anniversary passing, you might say that the survivors should "just get over it", after all, it's "in the past". However, some haven't gotten over losing loved ones, or limbs. So, they haven't stopped talking about it. Some people still bring it up because they want the entire ferry system reformed to prevent the further suffering of others. From the sound of things, a year after Christopher Reeve was thrown from his horse, you would have told him to suck it up. ] I've come to realize it's because it makes _them_ (their flesh) look real big and spiritual and important both to themselves and to others - it really puffs up their ego. The result is they stir up other peoples emotions (the flesh) for the purpose of getting others to think evil, to stir up strife, hatred and bitterness among the brethren. Doesn't the Word of God say these are also the works of the flesh? What is amazing to realize it is always these acts that end up manifested - not the dead works of a dead VPW or any other minister you happen to dislike - whether they are dead or alive! [ Oh-you're privy to the 955-99% of our lives when we are NOT on this messageboard? You know NOTHING about the works we accomplish elsewhere. This characterization only serves to try to pretend there's another reason to EXPOSE CORRUPTION, other than TO EXPOSE THE CORRUPTION. ] _WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. [...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ] Certainly you don't need me or anyone else to remind you of you it. But if your only out to prove to others that your the spiritual top dog, the least you could do is quit minding his work and start minding your own. [Nobody is here to SHOW OFF. (Well, no one EXPOSING THE CORRUPTION OF VPW IS HERE TO SHOW OFF, anyway. We are here to EXPOSE CORRUPTION, inform, interact, and heal. Again, you know nothing of what we do when we're not here. ] Time is very short! [ All the more reason to free your mind of self-defeating, destructive habit-patterns, and see things as they are. ]

Oldiesman, pg-6, 10/18/04, 10:22am. [WordWolf in boldface as usual.] Goey, yes, this is how I read what some folks are saying when they talk about the Leaven Principle as it relates to twi. I think you're misstating what the Leaven Principle means and what folks think about it.Here's what Excathedra quoted that article said: THAT is the Leaven Principle, [That IS The Leaven Principle. Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time. ] [bTW, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" is a DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE. Do you truly feel comfortable arguing AGAINST A VERSE OF GOD'S WORD? ] the baby is tainted/spoiled/no good. I think some folks are so angry and disappointed at VPW because of his transgressions, they've thrown out the baby with the bathwater because, as Pat described it, "most of the time, the crap is so integral in the baby so that even though you have thrown out the bath water, you still have a crap filled baby." ============= Do you really believe some folks would have the problems they do with twi, had Wierwille lived a devout life? Let's take all the spin away, and answer that one question. [ Another trick question, which contained more spin in its phrasing. If vpw had lived a devout life, there would not have BEEN the "problems" in twi, so there would be little to object to. If he wasn't a molester and rapist, there would be no molestations and rapes to object to. Men representing God are supposed to conduct themselves far above the molesting/raping level. If he had been honest about "his" sources and did not plagiarize in a prideful attempt to inflate his image into some superhuman Teacher, there would BE no criminal action to object to there. Fraud is a felony, in case you didn't know. If vpw had actually conducted himself in a manner at least above the minimum threshold established by God Almighty in His Word, I expect there would be far fewer doctrinal errors, and a multitude less of practical errors. ] Some folks may not say outright they believe "everything" about twi was bad, but, they may just as well say it, because that's the way I read their writings. That's why, when I bring up some "good things" about twi-1, why do some folks get so angry and defensive and engage in sarcasm, namecalling and put-downs? I think because they don't really care what good happened and don't want to hear any of it because in their mind, it doesn't matter what good existed. To them, the evil is the only thing that has any real meaning. I don't think I am misrepresenting and lying about those who think this way. It appears obvious to me by the way some people react to what I have to say that this is the way of things. [Has everyone besides Oldies, WTF and the other wierwillites noticed that the REST of us have had quite civil discussions on MANY threads, where we discussed good times as well as bad, healings as well as harmings, blessings as well as curses, helps as much as hurts? Most of us can discuss the good and bad civilly and mostly reasonably. That's because we don't pretend that experiences survived by others are lies. Do some recount suffering? Yes. Do some recount blessings? Yes. Does either get challenged on it? Well, not unless Oldiesman is there to suggest, intimate or outright call a survivor a liar, fake or fraud. So, everyone ELSE here has a genuine representation of their thoughts. If Oldies was less zealous in his drive to silence the testimony of some, he'd find this place would be a lot less contentious for him. ]

(Here comes an irrelevant interlude. Skip down if you bore easily.) One episode of MASH, Colonel Henry Blake has a meeting of his officers. He opens the meeting-a briefing on a current crisis- by saying things like "Men, we've got to put our shoulders to the wheel, we've really got to put our noses to the grindstone!" Trapper leans towards Hawkeye and says "Welcome to the Henry Blake Cliche Festival." So, when I think of this subject, I think of that response. ==================================== I believe it was Voltaire who wrote that "a witty saying proves nothing." However, in our advertised and spun-control society, it is often mistaken for such. Colossians 2:4. "And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words." I once had some fun with the Greek words in this verse. "Beguile"-paralogizomai, "para" as in "parallel" lines which never cross each other and meet, "logizomai" which is related to our words "logical" and "logic". "Enticing words"- "pithanologia", literally, pithy saying, clever phrases, slogans, cute sound bytes. We've all heard too many of them in our lives. We still hear too many. But, this forum is not about television or anything else, it's about twi. In twi, we heard a flock of such phrases. OUT of twi, some splinters have made it a policy to continue to use pithy phrases. Now, I've nothing against a clever saying in and of itself. What I object to is-how often-it is used as a substitute for actual THINKING. In twi, when confronted with a chance to THINK, at some point, nearly all of us responded with a stock phrase. Some of us STILL do that. So, this thread. What are some of your favourite-or least favourite- stock phrases, used far beyond any hope of communicating meaning to the hearer? ================== "Renew your mind". That one was whipped out when people faced just about any type of problem, and presented as if it was the magic bullet that slew it. Got a broken arm? Renew your mind! Reminds me of the Old Philosopher. ("Well lift your head up high and take a walk in the sun!...") "Where's your believing?" This one was whipped out when someone could see an obstacle and wanted to consider avoiding it. This phrase specifically was the antithesis of thinking. "What the Bible says God knows, He knows. What the Bible says God doesn't know, He doesn't know." I heard this one OUT of twi. That was when people were challenging the omniscience of God. When I asked for an explanation from Scripture, from more than one person, I got that EXACT SAME RESPONSE....and they were LEADERS. I didn't demand a followup, since it was obvious at the time that the speakers didn't know anything of substance beyond that on the subject, and that was meant to AVOID discussion. The statement was about as informative as "This triangle has three sides."

Wow. Not even Earthlink runs DSL in your area? That's rough. I doubt any kind of wireless service will help you- but then, I know diddly about them.

Hm. We've had more reliable accounts than I expected. ========== I think we all agree the Jubbulpore thing was made up out of whole cloth-on examination, it makes progressively less sense.

WHEN was it $200, and roughly how long?

I'm missing a lot of critical information to fill in some blanks. I know that the East and West Coasts were spearheaded by Heefner and Doop, and then vpw swooped in and choked the spiritual life out of them to centralize control, but I could use some accounts, but especially a TIMEFRAME. Also, when was pfal $100, $200, and other prices?

And neither does anyone else. Why don't you stop the intentional misrepresentation of what people are saying. FEW IF ANYONE HERE HAS EVER SAID THAT "EVERYTHING" ABOUT HIS LIFE AND TEACHINGS ARE BAD. Yes I am yelling, cause you have a real problem hearing - either that are you one dispicably dishonest human being. Get it through your thick head - and stop lying to yourself and to others about what folks are really saying. Not "EVERYTHING", but rather "SOME". SOME of his teachings were bad. SOME parts of his life were bad. As far as the Leaven Principle goes - first the "some" of his sins scripturally disqualified him for true leadership within the Church. The minimum standards are clear and concise. No one sins all the time. So let's say that VPW only commited adultery once per month and only got drunk once a week. Of all of his time that probably amounted to less than what - 5 -10 percent? Yet it was still enough to disqualify him as a leader according to the scriptures. So here is a case of a little leaven leavening the whole lump as far as being a true leader. It is similar for teachings (doctrine). For argument sake, let's say that 95 percent of what VPW taught was doctrinally correct. That leaves 5 percent being doctrinally incorrect. Now, let's look at what the 5 percent was. First in my mind is problems with the law of believing. Next is his teaching on tithing. Then there is the one where the king owns all the women in the kingdom. And then consider the backroom teachings where adultery is not even really adultery - especially if it blesses the Man of God. Now stir this stuff all up and we have the sum of all the individual parts - All of VPW's behavior - good and bad and his all his teachings - good and bad. - We now have "the lump" which is basically TWI-1 based upon VPW's teachings and leadership. The point folks are making is NOT that "everything" individually that VPW did was bad, or that "everything" individually he taught was bad. So for Pete's sake get honest for once and stop saying that. The point is that the bad (the leaven) was enough to spoil the whole lump (TWI as it was lead by VPW). Oldies, I simply don't know how I could make it any clearer for you. But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said. ===================== I thought it might get missed the first time. A number of things seem to slip by that way. Alfakat also summarized the main points of the above as follows: "Yes, Virginia, of course there was good and good times in twi-- but it came to naught, NOT cuz the debill didn't like us, but because there was leaven- i.e. error, evil, sin, what-have-you--- in the doctrine and practice of twit. QED."

OM, I think I _finally_ understand what is going on. Are you equating what twi taught with "the word"? Oldiesman's reply, 10/15/04, 12:42pm, was "The simple answer is yes, with the proviso that some of what twi taught/ teaches is wrongly divided. Stated another way, I don't think everything twi taught was/is rightly divided, but that part that was/is, is "the Word". ============================ So, that explains a few things. The rest of us mean one thing when talking about "The Word". We mean "the Bible as God's Word", or things along those lines (e.g. "the originals before translation".) When Oldies talks about "The Word", he means what vpw taught, packaged as twi materials like pfal. That stuff is "The Word" (i.e. "God-breathed"), except where it isn't. (Where it isn't is where it can be caught being blatantly wrong, like tithing.) ===================== So, when Oldies says "People renounced The Word", he means "People renounced vpw's teachings". Ok, if he had SAID that, we would have agreed, to varying degrees. Some of us believe some of the things he taught, but not simply because vpw taught them. We concluded they were sensible on their OWN merits. Some other people (obsessed with infant hygiene analogies, mostly) seem to view vpw's teachings as having an internal merit of their own, where they are not meant to be keys or assists to understanding the Bible, but of equal (or greater) merit to the Bible on their own. Those people would consider vpw's teachings to be "The Word". ============== So, have we renounced vpw? Yes we have? Have we renounced everything he taught? Most of us renounced his package of material as a whole; some of us have rejected all of its parts, most have rejected some parts and consider other parts reliable on their own merits. Personally, I think it's deceptive and dishonest to intentionally substitute one concept for the other, when it is clear the majority of us understand the words to mean one thing, and one or two others wish to reassign meaning to terms and words. To do so accidentally is inferior, sloppy work. (By this time, it's obvious it's not accidental.)

Bravo, Catcup!

That says it better than I did, I think.