WordWolf

http://www.bullyonline.org/related/abuse.htm#Reporting_abuse Why people sometimes don't speak up.

=================================== Yes, I mixed up my names. If you look at the first of THESE links and say "that's not God's Blue Book...." then you might be in a cult.

Well, please elaborate on the types of things they DO defrock for. We can at least narrow the field of speculation down.

Then again, maybe it didn't, and he didn't hear about any of this. We know there were problems when he was in India, and his denomination got COMPLAINTS from the locals about him. His accounts of the complaints are all we've got. Can we possibly count them as reliable. I believe him when he said there were complaints, but I DON'T believe the reasons he gave. I can only guess and speculate what the REAL complaints were about.

In order: A) "What is the real purpose of this website?" http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm B) "All I see is bashing, slamming and put-downs." That's odd-especially considering that the LAST thread you posted consisted of civil replies to your own pointed question, without bashes, slams or put-downs. (Except one post which said, in essence, "here come the slams", which completely failed to predict the rest of the thread, nor characterize the preceding posts.) Perhaps the problem is that you're not looking around enough. The forums alone cover a wide variety of subjects. You have chosen, voluntarily, to participate in a dedicated forum called "about the way". It's labelled correctly. That's what it's about. There's variety among the posts in that forum. Look around-you'll learn a lot that you didn't imagine existed. Don't like ANY of the posts? Participate in a different forum. We talk about Doctrine, birthdays, prayer requests, movies, and all kinds of stuff in different forums. Don't like ANY of the forums? Nobody's forcing you to come here. Exercise your free will, and visit elsewhere. There's thousands upon thousands of message boards out there. One or two (or a dozen) are bound to meet your approval. Another issue may be that ANY criticism of twi, or vpw or lcm or their ruling elite or practices or doctrine, are viewed by you as "slams, putdowns and bashes". That's not a fair use of the language. Many of us have intelligently discussed matters of doctrine and practice here. Sometimes (surprise!) we agree with a particular doctrine or practice. Other times (you noticed), we disagree. Our reasons vary as widely as our POSTERS vary. Some are still Christians who revere the Bible-their positions will reflect that. Some are Christians who are more traditional and reject Bible emphasis-their positions will reflect THAT. Some have rejected Christianity altogether after encountering twi-their positions will reflect THAT. A few still approve of what they were taught in twi in general-their positions will reflect THAT. Each poster posts what they think. The result is a rather cosmopolitan mix of responses, often. Sometimes there's consensus on a subject, sometimes the responses are scattered. C) "I know if I have a bad experience with a group, I might talk about it for a little bit, but then it's history! Why the constant talk?" Since you asked..... Some people are new arrivals. They're still coming to grips with the things they're discovering and realizing. They trickle in across months and years. The current group of posters arrived over a span of nearly 10 years, and some are still arriving. Some arrive, get what they needed, and move on. Great. Some feel this site serves a need in their life, or an interest, so they stay. Great. Some feel they serve a purpose by posting, so they post. Great. One of the things that characterized-and characterizes to this day-twi, is the push to control information. vpw began that, with selectively providing information, and not volunteering what would not serve his own personal agenda. (For example, the degree to which his collateral readings and pfal books were rewrites or transpositions of work by BG Leonard, JE Stiles, EW Bullinger and EW Kenyon.) This continued thru his personal foibles, and thru causing dissenters to vanish in a cloud of rumours, never to be seen again. twi always presents itself as if only twi has any REAL answers-anyone else is uninformed, ignorant, biased. Then the internet came and changed all that. Now, anyone can communicate with people all over their country and the world fairly easily. Now people who would have "vanished" can tell their story-and compare notes. Odd how so many had similar experiences...... People who seek understanding can come here and "connect the dots" in their own lives. New information is STILL coming to the surface. (This week we saw where vpw got all his mysterious announcements about overthrow of the government and so on.) People who are kicked out by twi, or leave in desperation, full of inflicted fears that God will turn away from them now, can see that isn't so. We're all here, and we still have lives......they can go on, even prosper, after twi. Finally, people who receive invitations for an "innocent little Bible study" do what they always do NOW- they go online and do a little research. In this case, they find places like this website. They can then make informed decisions, having now heard more than one side of the story. Amazing how, once they hear both sides, the few people who express an interest in hearing about the Bible, become wary of twi and don't stick around, isn't it? If all we told were lies, surely it would be easy for experience to show that..... So twi is unable to draw members now- partly because of its own weaknesses, partly because it can no longer control information. THAT's why the constant talk. Again, as I and others say, if you don't like this message board, don't visit. Find one you like and visit THAT one.

In case you're interested, we posted the entire poem "The Touch of the Master's Hand", by Myra Brooks Welch, in the Open forum a few weeks back. You can also find it online.

*checks* Hm, good point. Derailed it pretty quick, too, on the first page.

pg-3, this thread. 3/10/04, 11:55am. It really would depend on the mind set of the participant involved, but I do question that those engaged in that activity thought it was a requirement to service the mog in that way; I think most freely availed themselves to do it; others were abused, but I would say generally, no, folks who did that sort of thing didn't think it was sexual humiliation at the time (those who thought it might be, or found it distasteful didn't do it, obviously.) Laleo, does this reflect an honest acknowledgement that some women's lives were shredded when they chose not to comply, and that some were drugged so that they were not able to refuse? So far, I've seen accounts from women who were drugged, women who felt they had no choice, women who refused and ran, women who know women who were traumatized by being in one of the above categories, and a few assorted variations of same. So far, what I have NOT seen is ONE woman say that, at the time, she did something with a mog, and she wasn't under duress or any coercion at the time...I haven't even seen one say she approached the mog with the intention of a "dalliance". So far, seems that, to some degree, all of them found it "wrong" or "distasteful" at the time, even when they were forcing their minds to say it was "right"....

If you look at the first of IGOTOUT's posted links and your first reaction is "that's not 'God's Blue Book'-'God's Blue Book' is called 'the Bible Tells Me So'", you might be in a cult. (links above on page 3.) ========================= Edited because I messed up on the names.

We have some newcomers, Tom, and it sounds like you were around for a while (longer than I thought). For the sake of the studio audience, please fill in some of the details. Some people arrived late and missed our earlier discussions on the GSC....

Besides the usual name, dob and dod, and the twi standard phrase "awaiting the return", his headstone has the phrase "I wish I'd been the man I knew I was", in quotes, as if it was a direct quotation out of his mouth. My question is-did it come out of his mouth? Did he give the direction to have that written as his time drew to a close? Or was it "ghost-written" by another to lend an air of piety and humility to the headstone? I only have guesswork, either way.

*reviews links* At first, I thought you were just tossing out an insult. The more I read, though, the more I wonder how close to the mark this is. For that matter, so long as I'm wondering, what WAS the original motivation for spending time in India, of all places? (Is it possible he read or heard something like this which affected his decision, or prompted a trip at all?) I have no answers, and yet, the questions, I think, are worth considering for a bit. Here's another question I have no answer to. Considering his views about other ethnicities, other skin colours and so on, [or how we judge them to be based on all the white supremacist materials he's been documented to have drawn from,] what was his behaviour like in India? We know he didn't change THERE because we only saw him AFTER there-travel did not broaden his mind as regards to others. The only accounts he ever told was the highly-suspect incidents involving the key to a city (somehow, never enshrined in the way's little museum exhibits) and the miracle of healing of a withered hand.

I think I see eye to eye with you on this, Oldies, except for the headstone. I've never seen any indication that he chose out the epitaph. If anyone was an eyewitness to that, or knows of one, please correct me-personally, I think I'd like to know one way or the other.

Were there signs of it from the beginning, Tom, or is this a general impression you have? I'm hoping some of the old-timers can shed some light on this. Possibly some who got out early, or some who stayed too late...

Wonder1, you can type your post under all the text if you want to respond directly to someone's post-no need to make a separate post. That's what I did here. As you can see, it is obvious where you wrote and where I wrote. I'm going to take a wild guess and suppose that you're a fairly recent arrival to twi and an even MORE recent arrival to the GSC. (Again, welcome.) My, my, you've certainly missed a lot of the exciting stuff! I recommend spending some time reading thru the documents linked to the main page: http://www.greasespotcafe.com Here's one you might find especially interesting, to say the least.... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/misc/adultery.htm It tells many things. It was originally a study on what the Bible says on adultery. It conflicts with what was told to young women and leadership at the "root" locales. When the contents were brought to twi's attention, leadership sat on it. When they were no longer able to ignore it, they fired the writer, fired anyone connected with it, and spread rumours about them being possessed, evil, and so on. That's all because of the contents of a paper that said "the Bible says adultery is wrong." In any other "Christian" organization, the response would be "yeah, no kidding-of course the Bible says adultery is wrong!" In twi, it was controversial, and led to firing. Doesn't that strike you as particularly odd? The entire contents are on the link. Please review it and ask yourself: Is this study accurately reflecting what God's Word says about adultery? Is this study acceptable for adults to study and review? If you think it's UNacceptable, is it any LESS acceptable than a class where photos of naked adults are shown, and body parts, including slang words for the same, are discussed aloud? If not, then I'm sure you'll have a few NEW questions when someone suggests you take twi's class on sex, whatever they're calling it now. The writer of that study decided to confront people who he concluded were wrong. Please read for yourself what the result was. I myself asked some questions here and there. Ever been threatened with physical violence just for asking questions? I was, last time I was on grounds. It was in a context of CALM discussion, where I was seated, calmly talking with someone over the events up to date. Ever tell someone your conversations were being monitored and eavesdropped on, then have an eavesdropper prove your point by interrupting you minutes later? I did, last time I was on grounds. The "thought police" were quite busy enduring nothing was spoken that met with their disapproval. Whatever you're seeing NOW in the organization is nothing but a pale echo of what I saw, and what I saw was a pale echo of what others saw long before that. Many of the blessings of God are simply not allowed at "The Way", and some never were allowed. Feel free to look around, ask honest questions, and follow up with us. Please phrase your questions politely, and many of us will attempt to do the same. Please understand that some of us are still hurt and bitter, still recovering from lives that were destroyed by people who claimed to represent God. Some of them can't look a Bible in the face again because of what they endured. Some of them are bitter at all Christians because so-called Christians ruined everything they had. Many are still quite emotional, especially when someone suggests that what they lived thru, or witnessed with their own eyes, were illusions, figments, lies spun out. Some people have told them such from time to time, in attempts to ensure themselves that the "good old days" really were as good as we were told they were. This may mean some responses you get will be a bit charged, a bit heated. Please take that into account. Please also take into account that twi has periodically attempted to pry into the private lives of people still IN that post here, or those informing the posters, in order to expose and kick out current "members" of the way. (Are they still claiming there are really no members, or was that claim discarded?) So, if you want personal information-names, phone numbers-many will NOT give them and will expect you're here to expose them and kick them out, or to hurt them for posting here. These are well-documented by now. Let us know if you need some real-life examples of any of these. At some point, you'll want to ask yourself: The actions twi takes-are these the actions of a Christian organization? Is this pleasing to God? Is this how God said to act?

Laleo, I might agree with you on the initial post, and even on page one of this thread. Keep reading. By page 3, the discussion turns into "I don't think there was any coercion involved-everybody was consensual". Let me know if you need the exact posts cited or quoted. Gunpoint is easy to see as coercion, and is an order of magnitude greater than using psychosocial methods. They don't invalidate the presence of other modes of control. "Iron bars do not a prison make." That's been a saying in the world for a long time, and not without reason.

JT, My understanding is that in the early days, one or 2 people vanished here and there, but it wasn't organized, and it wasn't many people. (A few people who would have blown a whistle were made to vanish before they could do so. Before the internet, that was very effective.) It wasn't until lcm drew his line in the sand in 1989 that there was anything resembling a policy, and it wasn't until Spring of 1989 that he started to use the mark and avoid verse (without the context and following verse that explained it.) If I were to guess from here, lcm got tired of all the information coming to light, and all the dissent he was facing (at local and leader levels, on subjects like adultery, the tithe, etc) that he decided to start enacting draconian rules in overreaction. It's a little like Bill Cosby saying that parents settle kids arguing that one touched another by declaring "I don't want anyone in this house to touch another person as long as you live." So, any disagreement with lcm meant you had to leave. Any hesitation or independent thought meant you had to leave. Eventually, anything less than cowering in a prostrate manner before local and national leaders meant you had to leave. Of course, on your way out, you were told you'd die horribly, you were outside the realm of people who care about God, etc, and others were told you were evil.

Hello. Any organization is composed of members. Thus, any action taken is taken by members. Technically speaking, everybody who's ever been hurt in history has been hurt by a person or people. When you find that a group is hurting people, or demonstratably wrong, there are three possibilities that I can see. A) ignore it or bury the evidence. I can't do that. B) correct the group and fix the problem. twi demonstrated they did not WANT to change. C) leave and try to keep people you care about from being hurt. When people attempted to fix things, they were fired and/or kicked out, and vicious rumours were spread around them. (Take a look at the Greasespot Cafe's main page, and check out the various documents and editorials.) That leaves an exit as the remaining option, for those of us unable or unwilling to ignore harm. For those of us who care more about people, or more about truth than we do about an organization supposedly dedicated to both, the choice was/is clear.

I'll agree with that, and it's more or less what I've said before. "I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out." That's how I usually say it. I am also aware of a point some other posters have made-that "his ministry", where it blessed people, was really "BG Leonard's ministry" with the label and box switched. I AM thankful of what I DID learn. (I'd have been more thankful if the correct label had been retained, but that's a separate issue.) ========================================================= I know some people who first heard of his death felt like their whole world collapsed. Somewhere along the line, the concept that Jesus would return in vpw's lifetime got spread around. Some also believed that vpw's own personal believing acted like a sort of spiritual safety net protecting the entire U.S. while he was alive, and his death ended that. (IF that were true, the sensible answer, which was obvious to me at the time, was that the amassed believing of everyone in twi was that there was a net while he was alive, and they withdrew that believing when he died-so it was THEIR believing that maintained the net.) I imagine some of those people will have something to say on this.

So, When did it all start? Was that one of the reasons the organization was originally formed, back thru twi back to Vesper Chimes? Was it always part of the original plan? Or did it creep in at some point? Did someone join and bring it with him as he got to the inner circle, or was it always in the background? Was twi originally DESIGNED to be authoritative, or was it tinkered with later until it BECAME authoritative?

Sure would have been nice if that HAD been what it was used for, wouldn't it? Instead, it was used to drive off the godly while the organization protected molesters and pedophiles who knew how to suck up to the boss....

Yes, Mike. We're aware you're under the impression that vpw only surrendered the legal, visible and titular aspects of the organization to lcm, all evidence to the contrary. A separate issue is that only vpw declared vpw had any further authority than that to bestow. That's courtesy of the thread: "Newsflash: vpw never installed spiritual leader of twi!" We also know that YOU'RE convinced that only some sort of spiritual superman could resist abusing an office. The rest of us-we're not convinced. Some of us HAVE held trusts and offices-and NEVER abused them. Some of us know leaders who'd never THINK to abuse their office. The shepherd gives his life for the sheep. It DOES give me pause at the thought of what YOU would do if handed the reins, since you're so sure anybody'd fall....

The so-called profit in Mark and Avoid was the pressure to conform. As it was originally used by twi in 1989/1990, it was the penalty levied on those leaders who refused to swear an oath of loyalty to lcm when he demanded one, no questions asked. Refusal, hesitation, even a desire to discuss it based on biblical principles was treated the same-Mark and Avoid. In plain English, firing them and ostracizing them. As it developed, it became a more general tool to enforce conformity. Someone a conscientious objector or not 100% supporting the bod? Kick them out. The concidence of a lot of people kicked out as they approached their retirement years-thus removing them from twi's sphere of responsibility once they'd bled out their lifesblood for the organization has been noted by a few.

TempleLady, In some organizations, it is expected that some people will challenge those in power and there is a system (effective or not) for review, and redress of grievances. The Roman Catholic church has been wrestling with such issues of late, and people who disagreed with how certain scandals were being addressed were not forced to agree or leave. I'm trying to draw a distinction there. Also, I'm very specifically trying to focus on the NON-LEGAL aspects, I thought I'd made that clear. What the letter of the law of the land says is not even allowed on the table for this discussion. (There's other threads for that.)

Well, once upon a time, there were a few albums put out under "New York Way Productions". One was "Love, Always", which was a compilation with various artists, including Billy Falcon. The other I know of was "Spark in the Dark", by Billy Falcon. That one (and maybe the other) was carried at the bookstore at hq, and BF performed once that I know of on "High Country Caravan". In the early '90s, Billy Falcon released a secular album, "Power Windows" and got a little commercial airplay, even appearing as a musical guest on the "Tonight Show". (Somebody saw the video for the title cut.) If you want any more info on him, someone else will have to chime in.