WordWolf

I suspect this played out one of lcm's little fantasies, also. I can't PROVE it because I never overheard him say he was into 3-somes or watching women or whatever. (Perhaps someone else here, or several someones, HAVE heard this.) I can speculate, based on his ultra-macho jock image that he strove to maintain. (Anybody here see him exercise daily when he was on the twi dole?)

You could say the same if he quoted Romans 10:9. So what?

Offhand, maybe 60%-65%...that's a rough guesstimate off the top of my head and not based on any statistics. No lower than 50% of posters, no more than 70% of posters, I'd say. The Doctrinal forum tends to draw more Christians, and a few outspoken agnostics and atheists.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought that, Goey. Given those 2 choices, I pick "C". (Well-disguised "False Dichotomy", that was...)

Sheesh. Sin is sin. I'm not sticking up for any category of sin, but I'm not shoving myself in anyone's face for it, either. They know where to find me it they want my opinion or my help. lcm, in particular, grew obsessed with homosexuality. It's possibly because he thought of himself as a dumb jock. (Not so much an athlete as a stereotype of an athlete.) So, that included full-blown hatred, intolerance and crude jokes (as well as parents saying their kids learned to curse from listening to lcm), as well as tirades on it. Eventually, lcm tied just about every evil in mankind to homosexuality, and slapped labels on everyone who disagreed with him as a "homo or homo sympathizer", and he kept seeing "homos" lurking around every corner. (One might wonder what fueled this obsession...) lcm condemned THIS sin of lust roundly, but was perfectly fine with his OWN sins of lust-he cheated on his wife, and used some members ("followers") for his own gratification. Nice double-standard.

Not to detract from the previous posts-which I AGREE with..... I'd also recommend finding some competent Christians not connected with twi and spending some time with them. Some of the things you learned may be useful, some may not be. Either way, shine some light into things, and also discover that normal Christians are not all idiots like we were taught.

Wayfer Not, I was contrasting your normal, Christian expectations with the ones twi had- where people either can join twi or be WRONG!

That's more than I wanted to know. I was prepared to take your word on it....I skipped over most of that last post. I DID have a chuckle just before that, though, with the line, "images you find stimulating". I had a flash of some Raelian out in a trailer park, putting on a tape of "Debbie Does Dallas" with the sound off. (No, DON'T tell me if that's true.) I thought you were going to say something like "this group with the sex maniacs and orgies is one of the few groups I investigated fully", demonstrating your committment to get to the truth (as long as it's fun). PLEASE don't take this as an invitation to inform me any further about their practices-what you posted was sufficient for me.

I'd not dispute it. We already learned that what's on paper is only the tip of the iceberg-the really libelous statements are delivered verbally to the victims- I mean the "spiritually mature enlightened ones." So, on paper they advocate group gropes? Almost makes you wonder what's in the "lockbox"....

Out of curiousity, Refiner, can you give me the rough outlines of this? I'd like a few answers without subjecting myself to reading the whole thing, and you already did.... Did this Rael dude go into explicit details, essentially writing holy pr0n, or is that as much detail as he went into? How detailed are the official doctrines about this stuff for the Raelians? Do they memorize stuff about holy sex-slaves? Also, did Rael give doctrines endorsing full-scale BDSM in heaven, or was he just into the whole "master/slave" thing? I'm curious, but not curious enough to risk injury to my psyche by reading it myself. I'm sure somebody I've heard of, or several somebodies, would definitely be jealous that HE succeeded in outright doctrines of free sex when they had to sneak around in corners and maintain a lockbox/veil of secrecy....

Acknowledging the previous post and doing nothing to detract from it..... With that in mind, and with that understanding, I find those who claim that the adherents to the contrary POV to their own-Trinitarian or not-are not saved because they disagree are being silly and drawing a distinction God Almighty does not. To both "types" of Christians, I say, can't we all get along and tackle some REAL problems, of which there are many?

It wasn't about anyone getting saved, Wayfer Not-who told you that? It was about being always right, and having the arrogance to take potshots at everyone who disagreed with twi.

Of course, to hear some people say it, twi books replaced the Bible, and should be read instead. I thank God I'm not one of those people.

Um, JustThinking, Do you mean "out" as in "out of twi", or did you make a personal announcement that I missed at some point? Not that I'm judging, mind, just asking..... ============================================== Let's see....liked hanging out all the time with burly football players, insisted on wearing tights and doing a dance production, male...sounds like a flaming homo according to twi-2 standards. (We know he would be flamed, at any rate, if not literally set aflame, so he'd be flaming one way or the other). The irony of this escaped him, of course. Wonder if he's insecure about it nowadays... ========================================= BTW, the "logic" you cited reminds me of a fallacy a philosophy professor once said.... "God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Therefore, Ray Charles is God." ======================================== Kramer: "I should have known all along you were gay. After all, you're over 30, and you're still single...." Jerry: "What are you talking about? YOU'RE over 30, and YOU'RE still single!" Kramer: "AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!" *runs*

That's the one I THOUGHT you guys meant.... http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis/kids_abraham.html (You can find almost anything online.) "Farther Along" not only was not a twi-exclusive song, but it was nonsensical for twi to use this song. For those of you who took vpw's pfal Foundational class, you may remember when he got to the part about understanding what terms MEANT, not what they would mean NOW. One example was the verse "..but the end is not by-and-by". He said this meant "NEARBY, CLOSE." Therefore, the end is not immediately following what was spoken of in the verse. (You remember the segment....."It's not like in the song, 'By the sweet by-and-by'...") Then you sing "Farther Along" where "We'll understand it all by-and-by." We'll understand it "farther along", or "by-and-by"? Later, or very soon? Why did people look at me like I had 2 heads when I brought that up also? http://members.warpnet.net/karin/images/zfarther.html Once again, tho, we had a song with stanzas missing. We never heard the last stanza, because it's antithetical to session 1, segment 1 of pfal. We're supposedly slopping over with financial prosperity, so we dare not suggest in a song that we're not. Same problem with the song "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow."

Sometimes I wondered how they still called themselves Christian with such controversial lyrics. Trinitarians are not bad people. I've met quite a few in the past year, and I have to say they express a lot of love. I would never consider them evil. I've met some pretty nice homosexuals too. I haven't met any witches I've known of though. But I'm sure there are a few good-hearted ones out there too. ;)--> Yeah, but twi REALLY loves to stick it to the Trinitarians. Under lcm, it was also quite fashionable to attack homosexuals. (I've heard vpw pick on Trinitarians, but I didn't catch him pick on homosexuals...which may just mean he hid it better.) I've met some witches. Some are idiots, a few are good-hearted. One irony is that Trinitarians might go on the warpath if you're A Christian but not a trin, and witches-claiming Christians persecute them-sometimes will give Christians a hard time. The irony of this has not escaped some others of them, who aren't quite so silly. Usually they don't use the term "witch", either-most of the sensible ones, anyway. The fake ones who just saw a movie and want to freak the normals ALWAYS call themselves witches. Steve!, Raf mentioned which one he meant on page 1, "Plurality Giving", and explained why. I'm sure he still gets "Beautiful Ohio" flashbacks like the rest of us do. "Beatiful Ohio, where dreams come true..." "So I dreamed I KILLED HER!"- Raf, before breakfast or a shower. :)-->

I get what you're saying.twi didn't view removing a fetus (1-2 trimester) as murder, so folks reasoned the fetus was expendable. It wasn't alive, it was "potential" life. Potential life is not life. Certainly not nearly as important as one's corps commitment, which was paramount. Breaking of the corps commitment was a big, huge deal, bigger than a woman getting rid of her fruit, if it got in place of a greater fruit basket. I'm still waiting for any citation of twi actually saying 3rd trimester was off-limits, or even a second person who heard this, for that matter. I do think fear motivation is always wrong. In that light, I'm sorry we all had to endure that at one point or another. I think another one of mj's points is that fear motivation is all over ... I agree with that too ... it wasn't just present in twi, it's part of life and part of being with other human beings. Techniically true, but twi raised it to an art form, and piled it on with thick shovels. Christian organizations are NOT supposed to use fear as a bludgeon over the Christians. Most churches do NOT do this. Why? They understand that men of God ought not to do these things. No, nobody's perfect, but most groups require better of their leaders, that they be better servants.

"empties": twi-speak. A person not born again, who does not have Holy Spirit, thus, empty inside. Usually in the context of them being scum, not even worth saying "hello" to. "in the household": twi-speak for twi. The Household supposedly was twi Christians and ONLY twi Christians. Other Christians were second- class at BEST, and empties didn't even count. Was eventually tacked on to sentences and definitions without rhyme or reason.

"empties": twi-speak. A person not born again, who does not have Holy Spirit, thus, empty inside. Usually in the context of them being scum, not even worth saying "hello" to. "in the household": twi-speak for twi. The Household supposedly was twi Christians and ONLY twi Christians. Other Christians were second- class at BEST, and empties didn't even count. Was eventually tacked on to sentences and definitions without rhyme or reason.

I never heard the "Father Abraham" song in twi, but it IS a kids' song everywhere else.

God help you if you have a few friends over to hang out and have fun and leadership finds out! People here have said that when leadership wandered in, they decided (all by themselves) that this would now be an official ministry event, with a teaching and songbooks and stuff. That buzzkill bombed the evening in record time and sent the normal people fleeing as if Yoko Ono was singing in the room......

Might also want to do a few more antivirus sweeps with other programs. I just spent several hours helping someone fix their security. Their security is now about 500% better than it was, and, after downloading several programs, they are WAAAY ahead on memory, since we flushed every single virus and piece of spyware out of the system. Took 3 different sweeps with various antivirus programs to get all the viruses-there were over 3000 of them, no kidding, the final count was pushing 4000. I wouldn't believe a machine could run with so many if I hadn't seen it myself. They said the machine operates like new, now. So, it's possible there's a bunch also slowing his machine, too.

Tom, feel free to include me in the PT if you want, I can expound on the books at length, without giving spoilers, even. (Just check this thread-you'll see what I mean.)

Do they at least include a decent explanation of the map by Fred and George? "Padfoot, Moony, Wormtail and Prongs...we owe them so much..." I would be VERY shocked to see the scene where Snape tries to work the map included, although it would be worth the price of admission all by itself. :D-->

That lcm speech was par for the course. Not even counting AOS, that dweeb HAD to stick his fingers into EVERYTHING. He was on High Country Caravan, and he prefaced the satire tape "Many Ways" by Tom Burke, and I forget what else. Probably the main reason lcm redid all the classes in an all-new, inferior style. For all us NOT-morning people, the song "Beautiful Ohio" will ALWAYS conjure up violent thoughts. Anybody else remember the story about the time the tape came up missing? Supposedly, it vanished one time, and vpw said "Ok, I won't play it again-I just want the tape back." I agree with the songs mentioned already. Let's see... Breakthrough's first album, side two, "Military Man." Nice song, a paean to our veterans, but I didn't get the relevance on a Christian album. A minor quibble. Tom Burke's first album, "Many Ways", side two, "Witches and WOW's". I really liked some of the lyrics in this album, I really liked some of the lyrics of THIS SONG. However, despite already having an entire song about the Trinity, he couldn't resist taking another dig at them. The end of a song about witches begins "So ring the bells and fly the flags You can tell all of them witches, Trinitarians and fags". So, apparently, all three were either related or equally heinous. Tom was a lot nicer in his next album, when he wasn't required to push the party line... Acts 29's second album-"Ready For Anything." "Somebody Lied-God Never Died." Another song to push the party line on doctrine. I'm ok with most of the song, but the end of it goes to far. "So understand we've been redeemed, Lord Jesus was the price And those that say that he is God are of anti-christ." That's a reference to I John 4:2-3 and II John 7, and twi's rather unique way of explaining them. Apparently Trinitarians were responsible for the fall of Western civilization or something. What WAS the name of that song with Hank Williams? Something like "I Thank God For Country Music" or "Country In My Veins" or something.