WordWolf

That is the crux of the question, isn't it? Inept? Or corrupt?

[ And yes, most people say you can infer motive and intent by an analysis of the methods, goals and results. Unless, of course, ithe result is against one's own interest. ]

Ironically, pc gamers seem to be the home-users that want the most "cutting-edge" computers, since they want the most perfect audiovisual quality added to the fastest microprocessors and most memory. Personally, your pc looks fine for the things I would use it for. I can't offer insight on the things you're asking. However, pm me if you want to discuss cleaning up the pc you've got and making it less likely to roll over and die. Even if it changes none of your plans, it would be worth the time investment to make sure the current machine works. For everything else, the techies here will need to speak.

I believe this is what we were discussing before we were interrupted.

Ok, for those of you tuning in late.... The discussion was about the possible reasons for vpw personally choosing staff assignments for people, when the people who filled them were incompetent or harmful to the rest of God's people when filling the job. There have been eyewitnesses seeing Donna and Rosa-lie in compromising positions and just barely shy of "enflagrante delicto". There have been accounts where it was known that both adults went on vacations together, and their sleeping accomodations-which could easily have been 2 single rooms, a quad room with two double beds, or a big suite (the bod has never skimped on travelling in style)- were arranged where they shared a bed, which, for unmarried adults, is VERY peculiar to US citizens with money (or without money, for that matter)- if there wasn't something else going on. Imogene Allen was a tyrant and anti-people, making her ill-suited to run the Bookstore-requiring her to interact with people all the time. Her personality made work in that department MUCH harder than it needed to be...except, of course, when she was goldbricking and watching her soap operas. Rosa-lie knew how to suck up, and squeezed the life out of anything she was put in charge of. Craig lacked ANY positive trait for a task of the magnitude of running a national ministry, AND raped and molested women-but he was incredibly loyal to vpw, and this allowed him to be placed in positions where his lack of experience and training placed him increasingly ill-suited jobs for him. Supposedly, vpw touted that leaders needed great acumen in matters of the spirit, that they needed to be servants, that they needed to be qualified for their tasks, that they must "walk by the spirit", that they must rely on revelation from God. Now, this means that either he acted with such qualifications, or he did not. =============== If he did NOT, that means he was a fraud and deliberately placed a standard before everyone else that he had no intention of using himself, ever. If he DID, then he carefully considered the functions of each position, and the demonstrated skills and shortcomings of each candidate, and, with considerable deliberation, put people who were incompetent for each job IN those jobs. WORSE, if he DID, then he walked by DIVINE REVELATION and his own GOD told him to put these incompetent people in those jobs. ========= One or the other. Could vpw guarantee that he was qualified people in jobs they would at least perform in a satisfactory fashion, that they were better than someone chosen at random to fill that job? According to Oldiesman, No. Nothing vpw could have done could have done that. "Nothing. No man can guarantee the actions of another." (10/4/04, 12:17am, pg-1 of this thread.) Rascal pointed out that vpw said that the RESULTS showed whether or not supposed actions taken by revelation were REALLY done by revelation or not. That is, if someone claimed to take action by revelation, and the results were "perfect", it probably WAS done by revelation. If someone claimed to take action by revelation, and the results were disastrous, it probably was NOT done by revelation. (Either that, or the god granting it is an idiot.) ====== JustThinking pointed out that, if a person IS placed in such a position, and they're ill-suited, it is the responsibility of their supervisor or director to remove them from that position. Therefore, the possibilities for the unfolding events are as follows: A) vpw puts the right people in the right job, either thru diligence or revelation or both. This is invalidated-we all know they were poorly suited. B) vpw gets "revelation" by a foolish god, and puts the wrong people in the wrong jobs. This means that vpw was a total spiritual incompetent and listened to an error-ridden god. Then, over time, vpw asks his god for revelation about their suitability, and his error-ridden god says that, despite appearances, they're fine where they are. This means the previous result was compounded periodically by his error-ridden god. C) vpw gets "revelation" by a foolish god, and puts the wrong people in the wrong jobs, then, over time, vpw evaluates them by his senses, and judges them fine as they are, evidence to the contrary. This means he has an error-ridden god AND vpw lacks mental discernment expected of any supervisor or manager in the world, let alone the household. D) vpw gets "revelation" by a foolish god, and puts the wrong people in the wrong jobs, then, over time, vpw neither seeks revelation as to their suitability, nor evaluates them by his senses. This means he has an error-ridden god AND vpw lacks the moral integrity and care for the household that is expected of any Christian leader at ANY level. E) vpw uses his own mental facilities to evaluate and place candidates in positions, putting the wrong people in the wrong jobs. This means he lacked the courage of his convictions, and refused to seek divine revelation. THEN this means his own evaluative skills were severely lacking, making him incompetent. Later, vpw gets revelation from an error-ridden god who tells him they're fine. See the previous points. F) vpw uses his own mental facilities, and carefully places the wrong candidates in the wrong jobs. See the previous point. Later, vpw refused to seek revelation on this and uses his own facilities to examine the candidates. This means the man who told us to always seek revelation went out of his way to avoid doing so in critically-important matters, and was ALSO an incompetent in handling this by his understanding. G) vpw declined to use either divine revelation or his own skills to determine the best candidates, and used a criteria OTHER THAN divine revelation or THE RIGHT PERSON FOR THE RIGHT JOB as his determination. The most obvious alternate criteria would be a PERSONAL one- he chose who would suit HIM and not who would suit GOD or the PEOPLE. Does ANYONE see ANY alternate criteria for a supposedly RESPONSIBLE man of God to deliberately install people in jobs that they were unsuited for, as determined by revelation or performance? ================================================ Oldies insisted that he'd be more inclined to accept the earlier explanation if it was backed with logic. So, I provided the post I quoted, which Oldies was disinclined to accept. (Top of page 2, 10/5/04, 12:59am.) He ignored my other points, and seized on the money issue, as if it was all I said. He then said he would need proof before accepting this was done out of a prioritizing of money over God's people, and closed with a pious comment about God being the searcher of people's hearts. (In other words, if an evaluation of vpw's results has a negative outcome, the godly thing is to ignore it. Apparently, this type of thinking took vpw very far back when.) Rascal pointed out that Oldies ignored INCOMPETENCE as the only alternate explanation to CORRUPTION, which Oldies skipped. Oldies characterized the horrible people as the best that were available. When Rascal pointed out that a large number of competent people would have been better choices, Oldies twists this to mean that twi was a competent organization. (What about the idiots in all the authoritative position, then???) Oldies claimed that the existence of good Christians in some places means that the entire organization was good and was entirely composed of good Christians. JustThinking pointed out the derail Oldies deliberately inserted in the thread. Oldies claimed the thread went off-course because it lacked substance. Then Oldies started a new argument by deliberately misquoting Rascal and slapping Rascal's name on it. This had all the honesty of quoting Psalms and saying it says "...there is no God." So, I provided this RECAP for the people in the cheap-seats, and I expanded on my previous point which Oldies claimed was so ungodly. Carry on.

....and more unrealistic to think that, if they DID, he would do anything BUT say they're mistaken, lying, or otherwise not representing objective reality. Further, anything less than an unequivocal comdemnation would be isolated from its context and selectively quoted ad nauseum to try to say exactly the opposite of its intention.

Who said they had a CHOICE about displaying depressing posters in their home? BTW, anyone using the keys in Whiteside's book on Culture would have a field day pointing out the spiritual darkness in this picture. Anybody know if they're still selling it, or is Whiteside still alive and "mark and avoided"?

Wordwolf, I don't know the letter you're referring to. Can I have a copy?(snip) My opinion about the pot calling the kettle black is for the people who were accusing us of being Carnal Thinkers -- chiefly, Vince F. There were others too. But I do believe that most folks (average believers) who left were following their local leadership without examining the other side of the coin and confronting the BOT with the apprehensions. For instance, how many folks actually called headquarters to make an attempt to speak to one of the trustees? Very few. I happen to know for a fact that Don Wierwille was taking phone calls from anyone who would listen, back in those days. I personally asked my twig coordinators to do that, call Don and voice their concerns to him, but they refused. I eventually left their twig, because they couldn't give a fig about what I thought.A) The letters were discussed here before. Those were the ones where all the staff were named that were being fired. I posed it then but I'm not retyping it now. It was the first time lcm used the "mark and avoid" gambit. According to the previous discussion, the thing was a form letter. Every state got the same letter, with the exception of the names, which were different for each state. What I posted above was a less-diplomatic paraphrase of it. (You can try a search on the previous discussion, maybe.) B) I disagree with what you said about "the average believer." I was in touch with Christians all over the country at the time. (Before the internet, even! :)--> ) MANY sent letters and got back snippy replies. Responses were variations of "don't worry about that-just follow our instructions." That's when I scrapped my own letter which I was working on. Mail replies were definitely curt. I also took the liberty of posing my questions FACE TO FACE on grounds. The responses all confirmed what the letter told me. Leadership at hq were acting and planning in a non-Christian way, and were more concerned with loyalty and obedience than in godly edifying. What happened when you posted your questions face to face, OM? I know for a fact I was not the ONLY one who went face to face. Me, I was threatened with physical violence.... This scared me not one bit and only provided the nail in the coffin. Some people can't be coerced by brand loyalty nor intimidation. From what I saw, those who stayed had zeal, but the brains had largely left. (Judging from a nonrepresentative sampling I took across an ROA.)

A) You haven't yet-why should he think you'd start now? He has as much evidence that loyboy has reformed and is now a model Christian living quietly and humbly. B) vpw either walked with great revelation or he did not. If he DID, he failed majorly by handing out important positions to people who were unqualified to hold them, to the detriment of LARGE NUMBERS of people who had to deal with them (the Bookstore, the way corpse, etc.) If he wanted to give a cushy, "make-work" job without harming people, he could have made up a bs job. It would have wasted money but hurt no one. However, he was more concerned with the money he'd lose, and having the unreserved loyalty of them. If he did NOT, then he was a fraud and lied intentionally about the deep spiritual walk and decision-making. So, either it was accidental, or intentional. He was incompetent, or corrupt. Now, that was presented as a case using as evidence the testimony in this thread. What are the Greek's odds you'll agree?

If you know WordWolf, there's a pretty durned good chance you know me. If Sunesis didn't join TWBF/VP/CG in 89/90, chances are we didn't meet. I wasn't into Manhattan meetings often until about that time. We might have met, we might not. If I described how I dressed back then, and Sunesis recognized me from that, then we DID meet, maybe. Raf showed up at Manhattan meetings less frequently than I did.

Yes-you're justifying yourself by making villains out of the other guy, claiming you read his mind and know the reasons the average NY'er left. BTW, I didn't hear any of that back then....

I think it was more like 95%. I think had Vince stood with Craig, those folks would have hung around longer. But in those days, it was like the pot calling the kettle black. Vince was calling us Carnal Thinkers for "standing with" Craig, but look at all those folks who "stood with" Vince and Geer.Wordwolf, if that doesn't apply to you, more power to you. Some folks did leave independently on their own, instead of pointing one massive finger. :)--> Forgot the letter twi sent out? "Although we don't know most of them, we're announcing that all the local leaders you've had several years to form your own opinions on are actually evil and selfish, and your opinion of them doesn't count. You are not to stay in contact with your branch, territory or limb coordinators." That was a pretty strong indicator right there that the bosses at hq had no idea what they were talking about. They DEMANDED an oath of allegiance. The other guys said it was ungodly, and cited verses. How political did that have to be? How subtle and clever?

Honestly, You can uninstall it (leaving the hotfixes intact) IF: A) you have a resident antivirus program, updated weekly or more often (I say DAILY) B) you have the latest build of AdAware AND Spybot S & D, and have them updated weekly or more often (I say DAILY) C) you went to http://www.grc.com and ran "Unplug 'n Pray", "Shoot the Messenger", "DCOMMbobulator" and anything else that looked useful D) you have something else you're using for a popup blocker E) you have a decent (nonWindows/microsoft) firewall in use. Me, I'm leaving it in place for now, but if it gives me trouble, or I need the space, Im chucking it.

Most of New York State left in 1989. V1nce F pretty much looked to Gartmore for direction at the time, and he was making a LOT more sense that year than loyboy was. So, the state mostly left together as a cohesive unit, at least 80% of the state. Mind you, I had poked around hq on my own, and had come to the independent conclusion that even if I would be operating independently of everyone else, I had to leave then- hq just plain got really weird and blatantly "off The Word". So, nobody noticed I left, since I was one of thousands who walked at the time. That year, I stayed with the state-unit.

Ah, yes... the closing moments of "Best of Both Worlds, Part II". That perspective sure puts a new spin on "ST:First Contact", no? I think we can all empathize with his insight and his burning rage at the borg in that movie.... (almost all of us, anyway.)

Well, THERE's a brilliant idea.... Find a woman who you want to "cure" of homosexuality, then "facilitate" her "cure" by hooking her up with a guy who confirms the worst stereotypes about men. Just another example of the walk by revelation vpw used 24/7.... ...so long as the commonly-heard story is TRUE. I've heard it here, but I can't confirm it. As to the women in Rosa-lie's basement, there's something in the photo gallery, if you're bored.

Posted by jsamuel. [WordWolf replies in boldface as usual.] [by the way, what's your opinion of life under VPW, before LCM? ]

Do you see any possible benefit of JPW speaking up at this time? I don't. He's got a life, and his mother has a life. Yes, twi dealt with them without honour, which is not that big a surprise around here. What benefit, though, would either of them reap by JPW continuing to bang the drum? As it is, even though they hosed his mother, she may be better off now that she is out amongst real people and free of the groupthink and lifeless stagnation on grounds. I wonder who's living in her house, though.

"Does ol' Bessie the cow have a soul? If Bessie the cow had a soul, she couldn't go... whichever way she goes moo-moo, or something." Words of wisdom stuck in my brain, that won't ever leave.

The general consensus among the computer types is that it is best when installing on a new computer or the like. I cleaned everything up I could think of cleaning up, including performing a scandisk. I made a restore point, crossed my fingers, and installed SP2. (I did the praying before making my preparations, which is probably why I did the scandisk.) So far, after the first tweaking of the control center, it seems to not be causing problems. Of course, I told it to do as little as possible, and I've never broken into my registry or anything. Honestly, if I was setting up a new computer, it would be a very good idea to install SP2 before connecting to the internet the first time. This would install all the hotfixes, including all of Service Pack 1, and set up the internal firewall. As soon as I got online, however, I'd start with a real firewall and antivirus (unless I installed one of each from disk), and then set that up and turn off the Windows firewall. To me, it just buys time so you can get a real firewall. I'd operate under the assumption it didn't stop much, and act accordingly (act as if I have to find whatever made it in as soon as I connected to the net.)

Snakebite (UK version) 1/2 mug hard cider 1/2 mug lager Serve chilled. ---------- I drink less now than I used to, and I never drank a lot before. That's one of the few I'll still drink-and a lot of places don't have hard cider on tap, so it's a good excuse not to drink alcohol. :)--> Of course, if you're drinking at home, it doesn't take a lot of skill to open a bottle of Sam Adams, a bottle of Hard cider, and split them. You can even share, if nobody wanted a lot. (Or open 2 more bottles if you wanted to get smashed.)

Sites with some history of twi... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm http://www.watchman.org/profile/waypro.htm http://www.excultworld.com/twi.htm

Right. If you know where one is or (better yet) can post a link, I'd appreciate it. I know they're around here somewhere.