WordWolf

You had the last correct answer, of course, but since you didn't post one, I'll post another, a bit more difficult.... "The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own...but as the rain enters the soil....the river enters the sea...so tears run to a predestined end. Your suffering is over. Now you will find peace for eternity."

Before I forget, Harrison Ford was given some advice after playing a bellboy in "Dead Heat on a Merry-Go-Round". "Sit down, kid. I just saw the film from yesterday. You're not going to make it. You ought to just forget this business." "Yeah? Why?" "I'll tell you a story. The first time Tony Curtis ever was on screen, he delivered a bag of groceries- a bag of groceries. You took one look at that guy, and you said, that's a movie star." "I thought you were supposed to think that was a grocery delivery boy." "Get out of here!" --- Barbara Walters: "And we never heard of that man again. Has he tried to hire you since?" "Not at current prices, no." ==== Figured you'd love to see that story. :D-->

I'll keep an eye out. If it was Lucas DIRECTING, though, I'm dubious. It was when others directed that characters felt more real. With Lucas directly managing a scene, Harrison Ford would NOT have gotten to utter his pimptastic line in "Empire".... Princess Leia: "I love you." Han Solo: "I know." Of course, we got to see the reprise of that in "Jedi", with them reversing lines. :)--> The script for "Empire" did NOT have Ford saying that-it was FORD's idea. There were a lot of little touches the actors got to inject into the scripts here and there in the original trilogy. Lucas seems to lack a humanizing touch.

Mike, 3/10/05, 3:52pm, Eastern. Mike, 6/15/03, 5:49pm, Eastern. Mike, 6/3/02, 12:18am, Eastern. Mike, 1/9/04, 1:19am Eastern. Mke, 2/22/05, 4:27pm, edited 2/25/05 2:19pm. (Eastern) Mike, 2/22/05, 5:43pm. Mike, 4/19/03, 1:44pm, Eastern. I think Mike keeps forgetting what he HAS said about pfal and about the Bible. A number of us know he was saying this years ago. When I tried to get Mike to make a clear, unambigious statement of his position, I offered the following summary of his posts... I offered that 6/20/03, 7:40am (Eastern) Mike's response? So, Mike does not want to SAY pfal replaced any Bible. Mike wants to put forth this doctrine without SAYING it. Mike also seems to forget he's pretty much said it anyway, several times, so the next time he says it is the first time and it deserves special attention as a special news bulletin. The posts eat their own tails; the contents form a circle and repeat.

BTW, kudos to HCW for noting that the teaching on "The Joy of Serving" was about "the joy of serving" and not about "now God has unveiled a new Bible."

Oh, and here's the passage from the Orange Book that says that the Mikean doctrine of the scriptures being essentially lost to us, (thus requiring the rewrite he claims happened from 1942 on,) contradicts the internal testimony of pfal.... Page 128. "Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century AD, how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word-which I am confident we can- then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, 'thus saith the Lord.' " Mike's doctrine claims that this is NOT possible-it MUST claim this, since it claims that it was necessary for got to issue new revelation, new holy scripture. Mike, 1/9/04, 1:19am, Eastern. "God's Word was LOST in the first century."

Ok, now.... The "misrepresenting" thing is an old charge of Mike's. He doesn't like what we say about him, so he claims we misrepresent him. I'm one of many who go out of their way to see he's represented HONESTLY-with his doctrines clear and visible. Here's what Mike HAS said previously about PFAL replacing stuff.... (6/15/03, 5:49pm, Eastern.) "I'd say it's not a replacement for the Bible but a replacement for the traditional SOURCES from which we can GET the Bible." Here's what Mike's said about the Bibles you can hold in your hand... (6/3/03, 12:18am, Eastern) "When I say 'unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants', I am referring to the MODERN hand-me-down versions of scripture, along with the usual suspects like Greek translators." Here's one comment on PFAL vs KJV: (ibid) "The REASON for the 1942 intervention and the PFAL writings was to make the perfectly renewed mind available for the first time in written form. This was a very new thing that happened in 1982. The perfectly renewed mind cannot be received from KJV study, but it can be received by mastering the PFAL writings, including its repetition of many KJV verses. Most of the KJV verses you all find most crucial are printed in the PFAL writings and given a rightful context and foundation for us in our time now. In a practical sense, mastering PFAL would INCLUDE mastering a very hefty portion of the KJV. There's nothing missing in the PFAL diet."

The following was posted by Goey, June 1, 2003, 2:12pm Eastern. ======= -------------------------- From PFAL- p83 "The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures..." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. WIerwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says "Search the scriptures..." because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures- they are God-breathed. -------------------- In think WIerwille put "necessarily" in there because he believed or wanted others to believe that it was "possible" for him to write from inspiration. Just as possible for him as it was for the others he mentioned, like Luther, Wesley, etc. I have no problem with that. It is certainly possible that God could inspire any one of us to write. In the last sentence, Wierwille uses a semicolon after "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed." Then he lists these other folks but omits the word 'necessarily'. This, according to Bullinger, is the figure of speech-ellipsis or omission. We could add the word 'necessarily' before 'what Calvin said'-and not change the sense of the sentence. It would then read: "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed, not [necessarily] what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures- they are God-breathed." In fact, you could rearrange the names in any order and not change the sense of what Wierwille was saying here. After he lists these men he then says 'but'. BUT! BUT! BUT!...IN CONTRAST to what all these men have written- it is the Scriptures that are God-breathed and it is the Scriptures that are to be searched (and mastered.) The thrust and point of WIerwille's message here is that the works of men- including Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc-and Wierwille himself; even though they 'could' be God-breathed (inspired)- are not scripture. They are not in the Bible and are not a part of the canon of scripture. And, rather than rely on the works of men, (Wierwille includes himself), we are to search the Bible (scriptures)- "so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology." Mike, it seems that because of your seeking for "hidden messages" and because of your presumptions necessary to support your theories, that you have missed the actual message that Wierwlle was really attempting to make. You got it exactly reversed from what Wierwille was trying to teach here in PFAL. ==================

This one shouldn't be too hard, either. At least, I've seen people quoting it... "Save your bullets-these men are MINE!"

Amazingly, I was just discussing this exchange with someone- and filling in the reply in harmony- a few hours ago. That's from ALIENS. A friend of mine and I were DEAD certain Vasquez was supposed to be a Puerto Rican from the Bronx. The actress who played Vasquez was Israeli, which means I think comparisons of Israelis and Puerto Ricans might have some merit after all....

That, in short, is the essence of the Mikean pfal doctrine, Part I. After the real Bible, the next real written Bible was given to vpw in the 20th century. The reason why you believed all the times vpw said his stuff WASN'T from God, and didn't notice that there were one or two places where the words can be isolated from their context to suggest the entire contents were from God was some failing on your own part. A "closed mind" means not wildly embracing Mikean pfal in its entirety, an "open mind" means ignoring the evidence, and making a snap decision rather than a cold analysis. BTW, HCW, if you have the time this week, can you go to page 83 or PFAL (I can post it in its entirety if you need it), and tell us what it meant when you wrote it? Mike's saying "Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed." Mind you, we've already addressed this before (Goey, to be specific), but I'd like an EXPERT's insight, and INSIDER's insight, if I can get it. If you don't have time, or don't want to, I'll understand, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be thankful for your input on this.

[WordWolf in boldface again...]

Not sure how much was added to the story, but the underwear story happened in Alberta, Canada in March, 1985. http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/breath.asp

http://www.snopes.com/college/homework/writing.asp --- Not all men are from Mars. lcm is from Uranus.

First of all, this belongs in "About The Way", or, possibly, "Doctrine". (Again.) Please keep the "Open" forum for subjects that have nothing to do with what other forums are specifically for. ======= I shall quote from the US Declaration of Independence, then explain the relevance. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience has shown, that mankind are more disposed ton suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariable the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." ------ Now, what does this have to do with this thread? Back to that in a minute. There's 2 different issues here, and neither should be confused with the other. There's the organization vpw started, and the doctrine vpw taught. Too many people here have too many horror stories-established with witnesses- as to evil and despicable acts committed in the name of the organization, and covered up by the organization, considering people disposable and seeing fit to ruin someone's life rather than admit some wrong was done to them. I trust you're not saying "why not return to the organization", but, if you really want to know, start a new thread asking that. The relevance of the Declaration? Well, that's simple. The passage in question speaks of what to do in the case of a "long train of abuses", and how people will endure some evil in order to retain "the ministry that taught you the Word", so to speak. ----- Now, as to the individual teachings and doctrines..... that's already been addressed, and answered. Few here just woke up one morning and trashed the books. (I think a few might have, after enduring despicable acts at the hands of vpw himself, but that's understandable.) This was a matter of learning that what you previously believed was WRONG, and changing your mind to reflect learning better. "God, I hope I change my mind as more accurate information comes to light for me." Further, the approach of twi, as all-or-nothing as it is, is flawed. A greater knowledge of Scriptures has value, but, to the exclusion of everything else, it hobbles the Christian at the same time. Knowledge puffs up, God's love builds up. Jesus did NOT come that we might have a greater number of verses and an indepth understanding of the Torah- he came that we might have Life.

Hm. On reflection, I think it WOULD be used primarily as a recruiting tool, if not in the first week. Nevermind.

Question. Out of the last 20-30 years, how much of that time-for you- was spent in twi, how much of that time was spent in twi offshoots/splinters, and how much of that time was spent completely away from them all, and spent among Christians who'd never "taken the class" or heard of it? This may surprise you, but those of us who've actually spent some time among other Christians have found that SOME of them are shining examples. Many of them may not be able to rattle off the Greek word for something, but they could teach the way corpse quite a lot about the love of God and the heart of God. It would be to your benefit to see what blessings God would give you by doing that rather than by locking yourself up with what one person, one group teaches. vpw certainly didn't restrict himself like that- his pfal class lifted large volumes of material from JE Stiles, EW Bullinger, EW Kenyon (the Studies in Abundant Living), and BG Leonard, down to the wording and the characters Maggie Muggins Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco, all of whom first appeared in BG Leonard's class which vpw sat thru. So, if it was good enough for HIM to expose himself to the work of other Christians, then, by golly, it should be good enough for you.

[WordWolf in boldface again.]

You are the wind beneath my wings, Radar.

I think some of it was contrived, and some of it was real. I say in my case-and in the case of MANY people-it was real. In fact, the very first time I sit'd and interpreted, the results were anything BUT what I expected, but, upon later reflection, what the people in that room needed to here right then.

Discussions of this subject almost always take place in "About the Way" or "Doctrinal". If you're discussing what they teach, it's "Doctrinal." If you're discussing the people or the influence twi had on them, it's "About the Way." (Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.) === Perhaps a better question would be, SHOULD there be a forum for that? I can argue either end of that. The current system seems to work. Would allowing side-by-side comparisons of them be of greater benefit? Would their current members try to turn it into a recruiting tool?

Depends on my goals. When trying to see if it delivers what it promises, usually, I evaluate it based on its internal testimony. When trying to see how it rates among Christian stuff, usually, I evaluate it base on external criteria. BTW, we have had many, many, MANY discussions on this subject, both general and specific. We have discussed how vpw claimed he got the thing, and how he actually got it. We discussed individual doctrines and keys taught in it. We discussed individual examples used in it. We've also come to differences of opinions on it. A minority think the whole thing is worthless, except as a sales device for an MLM (MultiLevel Marketing scheme, like Amway.) A tiny handful (at most) decided it replaced the Bible entirely. (Despite all the "this is a class on KEYS" stuff.) Most people fall somewhere closer to the middle of the spectrum, and think that it has merit in a small portion, medium portion, or in the majority of what it teaches. Take a look around. Many of the discussions predate this messageboard, some were back in the 1990s. Some of the comments are from people who felt their lives were hijacked. Some of the comments are quite insightful. Some of the comments are brilliant. (Mine are brilliant. --> ) Try and appreciate each on its own merits.

That's a summary of my experience. No rhyme or reason I can see, either. I've had it slow to a stop after midnite, or before dawn.

Sure. Just launder my funds into a little retirement account, and I'll go on sabbatical until we're done. (On sabbatical from my other gig-Archbishop of the First Global Church of the Werewolf.)

You'll read a couple of self-help books and give yourself a pep talk each morning, and that will be enough. And if it isn't enough, you'll spend the money and go to a counselor and you'll be grateful you did. You'll volunteer for Big Brothers, and go to the library to teach kids how to read. You'll serve lunch at the Soup Kitchen, and donate blood. You'll take up an instrument and join a rock band, an orchestra, a string ensemble. You'll write (but never finish) your first novel. You'll fall in love and raise kids and fall out of love and the kids will be grown and maybe you'll fall back in love. Or maybe not. You'll meet people. You'll make and lose friends, and the people you care about will get sick and die. You'll go on hikes and build a bird house and plant an herb garden and catch butterflies. You'll take up sky diving and white water rafting and meet up with the guys in the morning before work for a quick game of basketball at the middle school gym. Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life. You'll be just fine. This bore repeating.