WordWolf

True. To a degree, it's perfectly understandable. Some of it just sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud- until you look at dozens and dozens of eyewitness accounts. vpw did such a complete job of controlling information (before the internet) that it was almost impossible to think of him as anything OTHER than "the next man of God to rise up after Paul's death" ("the Way:Living in Love", page 43.) wierwille hid all his sources, then lied and said he had a special connection from God and that's where he got such fantastic material. He put forth that it was the result of "research and teaching for 30 years" ("the Way:Living in Love, page-34) rather than a handful of ORIGINAL writers whose work he cobbled together. The purpose of doing THAT was to inflate himself and elevate himself to that position. His GOAL was for everyone to think he was far above all other Christians, and only HIS group had "The Truth". That way, when it came to evil things, A) It was hard to believe such a "godly" man could sin so greatly (Well, it was based on the false impression that he was a "godly man" based on the knowledge he supposedly originated.) B) he was able to use a veneer of godliness to confuse people and get some to think that God was all right with him sinning At first, it sounds ridiculous to hear of incidents of exhibitionism by him, acts of rape, drugging THEN raping women, rationalizing adultery in his own life, and so on. It's only after account after account pile up that the weight of the evidence becomes inexorable. It's not as ridiculous to examine his chain-smoking, his chronic alcoholism, and his love of luxuries both at hq and when travelling, and see that they DON'T paint a picture of a humble servant of God. It's even sicker to realize that he's not even original, and other conmen have abused the office of Leader among Christians to cover despicable acts. lcm didn't come out of nowhere and just started raping women-he was indoctrinated and trained by vpw, who chose him as his successor for the sole reason of his LOYALTY to vpw (which explains why he lacks any leadership ability). lcm was not WORSE than vpw-he was just worse at covering his tracks. ======== Jewel? Those are good questions, and there are a few answers. The "WayGB" are concerned with what we say here for many reasons. First of all, people who are still in sometimes post, and the WayGB is fixated on uncovering their identities. Second, they resent that they are unable to control information that is posted here. Sometimes, things happen that they want hidden away, but that information gets posted here for the whole world to see. Posts here and other websites were the main reason twi had to make lcm VANISH, and not simply keep him as "Head of the Research Dept" after he was found guilty of crimes. Posts here and other websites have fueled lawsuits. Posts here and other websites broke the news when twi decided to stick Mrs Wierwille in a nursing home, and ignore all committments they had to her. That one was SUCH a public relations nightmare that they insisted-after years of telling people to stay away from the GSC- that their side of that story be posted here as well. This was, in essence, an admission that their own members get MORE news HERE than thru twi official news channels. twi would LOVE to see us all silenced tomorrow. When people nowadays want information, they go online. When they hear of twi, they look and find US. The information here helps them stay wary or clear, which denies twi the chance to sneak up and trick them. This helps maintain "negative growth" in twi, which has been the status quo since at least 1989. As to them knowing what is right in their hearts, I doubt they do. Remember, your heart contains what you place in it. They've been feeding their hearts on a steady diet of twi propaganda and never trying any other "food". So, their consciences are severely malnourished. Yes, I would recommend reading all the links. I would also recommend reading ALL the documents and editorials on this site, even if it takes a YEAR. It's worth having all the information.

Actually, I had the benefit of reviewing an entire week at once. It's hard to do spin-control across an entire ROA-which was one reason why they were cancelled. And, I went in with the intention of looking-since I had already gotten the "all your local leaders are corrupt!" letter, and I knew that those I'd interacted with were NOT. So, I was already aware there was a "disconnect" somewhere. Heck-it was theoretically possible that the top guys were all in the zone and the locals really WERE corrupt. So, I had to kick the tires myself. ============== TheHighWay, so, you're saying that people greeted your entrance with a form to fill out- and you put ACCURATE information on it? The new-person card that is intrusive is just BEGGING for inaccurate information, starting with the person's name.

Jewel, a few things you may want to know. A) seaspray may be reluctant to give personally-identifying information because twi goes out of its way to dig up identities and so forth. He may also be reluctant to put his full name on the internet for other reasons, mainly that it would be available for search engines all over the place. Privacy is a BIG concern in the Information Age. He may be willing to give information privately. B) Before seeking private communication with seaspray, one may want to know that he has posted (and has not posted that he has since changed his mind) that, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that pfal was NOT the by-product of assembling the books and class of several writers, but that it was "theopneustos", God-breathed. Feel free to access his previous posts for many examples. If this does not bother you-or you believe the same thing-then you may not have any misgivings about communicating privately with him.

Allan replied Oakspear responded Allan replied rascal replied Good question. Allan had CAUSE to apologize, claimed others hadn't apologized previously, then claimed he HAD apologized. Of course, no such apology has been posted, but Allan claimed there WAS one. Allan doesn't let a little thing like "what happened" affect "how I remember things happening". Of course, he also won't do his homework before making a statement. I admitted making a mistake LAST on GSC 8/17/05, 2:39pm. I made an apology LAST on GSC 8/12/05, 9:34am. I've offered apologies a number of times here, in public and in private. That's because I believe that, in polite discussion, when a gentleman has been shown he has made a mistake, he offers an apology. That's why I said that. I'm unsure the specific reasons Allan is pretending he offered one, and unsure the reasons he claimed none of us offered any.

Allan posted the word Oakspear said Allan replied === http://www.dictionary.com said Since I'm on the subject, Allan also said and Dictionary.com said Allan also used the word in another thread.Dictionary.com said which I thought was an interesting coincidence. Since the term seems to have an inconsistent spelling, one would expect at least one to be wrong. (Or, as is the case, all of them.) ====== Now, someone might think I was taking this too seriously. To this I say 2 things. A) I didn't take out a collegiate dictionary, thumb thru it, and post the results, but I COULD have. This would have required caring enough. B) I actually WOULD have let the original post go, but Allan WAS the one wrangling about words... and when Oakspear pointed out the error, Allan DENIED he made a mistake

*points to the "Friend Tracker" forum*

the Little Mermaid ("and stared at each other. It got very boring.") Rene Auberjonois ("Le Poisson! Le poisson!") MASH (the movie)

Stated as a category, which most closely resembles your current belief-system? Please forgive the lumping of categories-I'm limited to 5, so I grouped into "non-religious", "Paganism types", "all common religions not Christian and not pagan", and 2 types of Christian. We can always narrow down the results with a new poll. So, what's the closest to your current beliefs?

Allan? In polite discussion, when a gentleman has been shown he has made a mistake (like attributing one person's post for another), he offers an apology. It's up to you whether you would offer one or not, but I thought I'd mention that it applies ONLINE as well as face-to-face, in case you were uninformed.

Allan said Bramble challenge Allan's assertion of 'pushing' beliefs... rascal agreed with Bramble... Allan replied to them both... Those paying attention may notice that Allan asserted that non-Christians were pushing their POV, and then one non-Christian challenged him to find one place she did so-thus challenging his claim. Allan then dodged the challenge (refusing to acknowledge that HE said she was pushing her POV, and asked her to find one place he did. Now, I CAN find it, but I'd rather see Allan answer BRAMBLE's question FIRST. She asked him FIRST, he REFUSED to answer, then turned the SAME question on her. ==== BTW, Allan? "Pushing one's beliefs" is not "debating". Dictionary.com lists definitions of "debate" as 1-To consider something; deliberate. 2-To engage in argument by discussing opposing points. 3-To engage in a formal discussion or argument. "Formal arguments", BTW, are not "yelling at each other", which some people call an argument. Any Monty Python fan should be able to tell you that an 'argument' is a series of statements intended to establish a proposition.' Dictionary.com says it's "a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood". ========= Hm, now we have the latest "sole defender of the faith" here. Please note, everyone, that he has now said as of 8/17/05 5:33pm Eastern. This is sure to come up again, especially when he "stops" GSC from "being overrun by pagans, atheists, new agers and spiritualists."

"You live your life like a canary in a coalmine." Now you've got me humming the old song by "The Police". :)--> ==== Well, I should only answer for what worked for ME, and let others say what warned THEM. I moved pretty quick when I found things that didn't gel for me, more than once. ("Your sensibilities are shaken by the slightest defect..") When it came to twi, the first signs for me were the strife in the upper echelons. I told someone that they'd work things out among themselves-which I actually believed. The next thing I heard was the Trump imitation-"you're fired" said to everyone in my state's leadership. I went to ROA '89, the next ROA after that. I figured that it would be THE place to be. Either I would see leadership turn around-and be there for the announcement, or I'd get irrefutable evidence they wigged out, and get a last chance to raid the bookstore. So, there I saw a number of things that hammered across which way the wind was blowing. One was lcm saying that it was wrong to appeal to emotion, and then IMMEDIATELY show the one scene from AOS that was designed to tug on the heartstrings. I stood there seething at the sheer hypocrisy of that. Another was the way every wierwille who could be convinced was brought onstage and trotted out for the audience. They didn't take the microphone, so they were just there as display pieces, as bric-a-brac. Except for Mrs W, who said that she didn't think it was loving when people told her recently that they loved her but could not remain in the same organization as her. (Sorry, Mrs W, I heartily disagree with your comments. "What kind of love is this? It's certainly not 'agape-love.'" Actually, that's exactly the kind it is.) I also noticed that conversations were MONITORED, and the teachings were of lesser quality. Finally, the letter that was sent out that fired everyone said things that weren't true about them -that they were only in things for the money. I had interacted with a few, and the money seemed the LEAST of their concerns, although it was clear they were facing immediate loss of place of residence, vehicle AND source of income. (That's enough to get ANYBODY worried about money.) After that, I was wary when people concentrated power and were wary to share it. I saw people who were happier disempowering the young than either training them to do things, or even simply do nothing and let them develop their own skills. Further, the attitudes were one of exclusivity- only THEY had any competency, so any leadership training was either THEM or INADEQUATE. Finally, any mention of something they were thinking of doing-if someone else had already done it-would produce NO reaction, not even asking for input. That is, them doing something the first time was superior to others having experience. So, I let them go their way and went mine. Outside of twi entirely, I encountered Christians who were convinced they were THE group-and they were poor performers compared to twi. As far as they were concerned, knowledge only came from THEM as well. ===== So, what warning signs have I seen? Appeals to emotion, hypocrisy (leader teaches one thing then does the opposite), style raised over substance, control of information, outright lying, channeling of authority into the hands of a few, and the doctrine that only THIS group holds "The Truth", and all other Christians love lies, have no commitment to God, and so on. That last one's pretty popular when I'm running for the door.

This is of course just me talking, and just my opinion, but, can both of you gentlemen take it to a different thread if you want to discuss both of those things? I think this thread has been proceeding with one tone, and it might be a good idea to let it remain with that tone. ==== And if you don't see fit to agree with me, and feel like flaming me over it (as some have done in the past), please at least take THAT to a new thread. I think that's a small enough thing to ask.

These questions really transcend the twi experience and may be summed up with one question. i.e., why does God allow evil to exist?Best answers I ever got to this question were taught in PFAL. Yes, we all know how much you learned there. I learned quite a few things there myself. Of course, we both could have learned this MANY OTHER PLACES, and relatively FEW of those places were or are run by leaders who callously abuse and betray the trust of their followers, and relatively FEW of them have leaders who plan and execute evil, and excuse it by slapping a Christian label on their actions, or claim God approves-or at least does not DISapprove of their evil deeds.

By that logic, anything beyond "yes" or "no" was ALSO off-topic, because she never asked "where can I find CFF?" She just asked "does anybody here fellowship with them." See, most people-unless she made it clear she was hoping to SKIP such discussion by saying "please confine discussions of its merits and flaws to another thread", would consider it on-topic to thus discuss "is it a good idea to fellowship with CFF?" which, although she did not ASK that question, does indeed seem RELEVANT to discussing whether or not someone DOES "fellowship with them". =========== Actually, you can blame me for this one. Since you and Allan had expounded at length about discussions of problems with CFF, ("abuse abuse abuse") I thought such a discussion had actually BEGUN. Since it did NOT begin, my defense of it was senseless- but then, so does any complaint that someone is discussing problems with them. :D-->

This post is meant specifically for the people who just got here. Hello! This is the About the Way forum, of the Greasespot Cafe messageboards, on the Greasespot Cafe website. Let me give you a small tour of them, in reverse order. ==== First, the website. The main page is here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com The purpose of the website is here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm The MAIN MENU of the website had access to many documents. Some of them are direct quotes from twi leaders. Some of them are editorials and commentaries on actions taken by twi. For those of you who are not experts on EVERYTHING about twi, I recommend taking a few WEEKS and looking over EVERYTHING in the MAIN MENU and DOCUMENTS sections. You will certainly be surprised by SOME of the things you will find, no matter WHO you are. ===== Now, then, the Discussion Forums. Their groundrules are here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/forums.htm After reading them over, just click to enter the Forums. As you can see, there are many forums. Some (down below) are Archives of significant discussions. Some are meant for finding extwi people, asking for prayer, and so on. Some discussions (like Politics) will be controversial. Some threads, in fact, some forums, will probably offend you. I recommend not entering those forums. :D--> No one will penalize you for being disinterested in a particular forum. Frankly, if you find yourself involved heavily in ALL the forums, I recommend turning the computer off for a while and walking around. The GREASESPOT 101 forum will be of some use for you in "coming up to speed". It's where posts are placed that are intended for new people to read pretty early on. As you can see, not every forum is even vaguely relevant to discussing twi. Two of them will be of particular interest for those who want to discuss twi a lot: Doctrinal, and About The Way. 'Doctrinal' is where discussion of teachings, doctrines and answers to the question "what is God's true position on...?" For all other discussions on The Way, proceed to About The Way. In About The Way, we discuss practices and policy of twi, both PAST and PRESENT. We discuss the origin of practices and policy, and the TRUTH behind things we were told by various leaders. We also discuss the morality of the actions taken by leaders in twi, and what the RIGHT thing to do would have been, and the consequences to the people of the actions they took. ===== Please note that it WILL surprise you that twi never told you the truth behind MANY things that happened-like the many lawsuits, and the many times lcm was caught committing adultery. It WILL surprise you to see the degree of plagiarism used by vpw- who took nearly everything he ever taught from other people, then went on to claim-in writing-that it was all from God and him and no one else working on it. vpw occasionally mentioned slight assistance by a few other Christians in a few things, but the truth of the matter is that he copied entire works of those people whom he characterized as being slightly useful. vpw claimed to have a connection to God UNIQUE to Christians since the First Century AD, and taught that twi thus had truths UNKNOWN since that time. Those were all deliberate lies, and the full details are all over this forum. You will PROBABLY be hurt, shocked, and offended at many things that happened in twi history. You will probably be hurt, shocked and offended at many things done BY Victor Paul Wierwille, L.Craig Martindale, and many others. Your first impulse might be to call all the people who speak against twi as "liars". Please keep reading before CONCLUDING this is the case. Do you think ONE person's account of being raped is false? Keep reading-MANY women have come forth. Many spoke out at the time of the rapes, and twi was able to make them disappear. With the invention of the internet, this is now IMPOSSIBLE. Do you think ONE person's claim of plagiarism is false? Keep reading-MANY books have been shown, line by line, to have been lifted entirely from other writers. Do you think ONE person's claim of leadership ruining lives is false? Keep reading-MANY people's lives were ruined, and many people have spoken out. Many of you have had specific wrongs done you by people in twi. You probably said that you were the only such victim. Keep reading. Chances are, there were MANY people who were victims of the same wrong-and they've already posted on this. Know someone who was drugged and raped? Know someone who was molested as a child? Know someone who was beaten 1/2 to unconsciousnes by 'children's fellowship'? You're not alone, and we've discussed all of them. === Please understand that if you are prepared to call hundreds of people LIARS, and to claim that ALL evidence that twi was an evil, ungodly organization which attracted many loving, Godly Christians, that you are in the MINORITY here. Most here have formed their opinions based on the INFORMATION they've found from MANY sources (this site and others). Some posters are no longer Christians. Many are Christians who don't accept some, many, or most of the things twi taught as "The Truth". The non-Christians have different opinions, and some of them hold nothing against Christians. The various Christians have different opinions, and some of them are comfortable with brothers in Christ with whom they disagree doctrinally. There is no one single opinion of the posters. There is no universally accepted opinion of the posters. (There are even a few people who are convinced vpw never wronged anyone.) Please try not to be accusatory, vicious or otherwise rude in posting. Enjoy your stay. Oh- Please note: twi has people who read EVERY post here (including this post.) If you sign up as a member, and are still IN twi or know ANYONE still in twi, it is a good idea to leave all personally identifiable information out of your profile AND your posts. They try to assemble clues to the identities of posters in an attempt to control the flow of information from twi. NEVER POST ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WANT TWI TO LEARN. ================================================= Regardless of how much you and I will personally disagree on many subjects, I hope that all of you will look things over and make informed decisions, and sensible ones, even if they're not decisions I would have made. Finally, if you find that you are disinterested in the discussions here, leave! There's no law saying you have to read anything here, let alone post. Go find a messageboard and website you LIKE- there's millions of them out there! The "links" list has several you might like BETTER than this one, even.

Allan, you really should try harder to understand the discussions we are having here. I'll provide some examples and explanations, using this thread (with one exception). rascal said and you replied Now, then, let me explain the quote from rascal, to which you objected. Apparently, you have forgotten the keys you learned in understanding the Bible from when you were in twi. One of them was to keep straight the ADMINISTRATIONS, the time-frames. What was the time-frame rascal spoke of? The GSC posters and readersare almost entirely all extwi people. We are of different beliefs, including atheism, paganism, Christians of every stamp, and other things I can't spell. Only a small percentage of us are in 'cozy little fellowships'. That is NOT the current state. However, this describes how things were back in the 70s and 80s when we were in twi and vpw was alive. Is this describing situations nowadays? There is no Rome City campus-twisold it off. There is no Family Corps-the entire Corps nowadays graduates in numbers small enough for the entire graduating class to fit in a Geo Metro. Lindy and Georgio are adults now and grew up long ago. This is obviously not referring to the current state of things. It seems to describe twi in the 70s and 80s-when there was a Rome City campus, and a Family Corps, and Lindy and Georgio were being beaten for failing to smile convincingly when someone sneered at them. The word "meanwhile" indicates that the events were simultaneous-or at least happening in the same 24-hour cycle. This is ALSO not a CURRENT description. vpw hasn't taught Bible lately-hot, cold or any other temperature. He died in 1985, and he's been pretty quiet since then. (Or have you been hearing messages from him since then, where he's been teaching you Bible? That's the only way you can FAIRLY misunderstand the statement.) "the teacher"-context, the man mentioned teaching:vpw, who called himself "The Teacher". the driver is drugging a woman so vpw can rape her more easily. This has been documented as happening in vpw's life. Since he died in 1985, I'm unaware of anyone drugging women so that vpw can rape them. Dead men make poor rapists. Finally, the wow program was cancelled in the mid-90s and has been past-tense for the past ten years. So, it should be obvious-to anyone with ANY familiarity with: vpw, the wow program, the Family Corps, the Rome City campus- that rascal was speaking of events in the 70s and 80s, and NOT of things CURRENT. Your response? We ALL know she is not involved with any 'fellowship' groups TODAY, and she NEVER SAID SHE WAS. Your inability to "read what is written", thus allowing the word of rascal "to interpret itself", led you to this misunderstanding. You'll notice the rest of us had no difficulty understanding her the first time.... As for me, I really take offense at your refusal to read what she wrote rather than what you decided she said. She puts forth that she has a penchant for God? Looks like she's seeking answers to some difficult questions. Doesn't sound like she's decided she has all the answers. Doesn't sound like she's ready to blame God for the evil actions of vpw, lcm and the others, either. "Blaspheming God?" Where is she "blaspheming God", let alone at every opportunity? If by "blaspheming God", you mean "embracing wildly ALL the actions vpw did", then I suppose she's "blaspheming God." Keep in mind that this definition is not consistent with the rest of the people who use the English language, and you are not allowed to just redefine the language when you see fit. You followed up by claiming she when she said she was and To any NORMAL reader, she was making a difference between God and Christian values-which she has no problem with and a man and ministry-which she blames for much evil but you seem unable to see the distinction. She was not "trying to lay the blame on God". You also said, of yourself This is not how most people would see posts like when making it clear that you were aiming that at rascal.Most people would consider that post "personal name calling". Goey already beat me to explaining rascal's use of the rhetorical question. Rhetorical questions are one of the 217 Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, as named by EW Bullinger and taught in twi. The figure of speech is called in latin "Interrogatio" and in the Greek "Erotesis". NOW you can look it up in Bullinger's book. It's in the last division: Figures involving change affecting the application of words 6. As to Argumentation. It is the FIRST listing in that category. Alternately, you can look at it up in Appendix 6 of the Companion Bible.

Allan, AFTER rascal said you replied This mis-characterized rascal's comments as follows: 1) accuses her of not loving God 2) accuses her of not loving the Bible 3) accuses her of not enjoying "fellowshipping" with Christians. This also makes the following assumptions: 1) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" love God 2) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" love the Bible 3) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" enjoy "fellowshipping" with Christians 4) ONLY extwi'ers have 'The Truth'. As to assumptions 1,2 and 3, if you don't see how this is wrong, you really need to spend some time with other Christians-in a non-confrontational attitude. Volunteer at a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter. Work WITH them to do something worth doing. They don't all enjoy spitting on the Bible, which some in twi (like vpw and lcm) suggested all other Christians did. As to assumption 4.... A) All accurate information in twi (about 99% of it, possibly more) CAME FROM sources OUTSIDE of twi. Thus, 99% or more of The Truth has been out there since before twi. twi was NEVER as "elite" as its propaganda put forth. B) Some of twi's doctrine was WRONG. Period. Unquestionably so. Review some of our discussions on the "Law of Believing" and how it is incorrect from Scripture sometime. Your next post was just a plain insult aimed at rascal, and pretending not to be. If it was stated outright instead of your "clever" implication, it would read Neither the direct nor the "slyly-phrased original" were examples of a Godly approach to her. After that, you then asked her and Well, Allan, that is your PERCEPTION. rascal, from the beginning (scroll up on this post) said that she doesn't find God such a small God that He only appears in the little box that twi placed Him in, and that God does not require working with liars, rapists and so on in order to bless His people. Isn't that what she said? Yep, sure sounds like what she said. Sounds like her true motive was-and still is-exactly that. Sounds like any difficulty in swallowing is in the reader, not the post. Now then, are you putting forth that when one says "God and His Word" one means "God and His Word ONLY as presented by twi"? If so, then yes, you and rascal are in disagreement. Mind you, if that's what you mean, there's a LOT of evidence to demonstrate that your position is error. If you'd like, we can discuss this in the Doctrinal forum. Or, you can just review the threads on individual doctrines that were ALREADY discussed. Then you can make an INFORMED decision as to whether or not the ONLY people who ever taught truth was twi and anyone they taught. Or, you can choose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, and embrace whatever doctrine pleases you emotionally. As an adult, that IS an option for you. (Some adults HAVE made that deliberate decision, and that is THEIR choice as well.)

"What does that have to do with the question? Nothing." Incorrect, and, although others already explained, but I'll explain again. "It is clear that she was looking for a Bible-based fellowship, but that can't happen. No! We must educate them on what they really need. I suppose we are too stupid to know what we want." No, you're just unable or unwilling to see the relevance of the answer. Although others already explained it, I'll explain again. ==== At this very moment, there are A)God-loving Christians who are trying to leave twi, B)God-loving Christians who just left twi C) God-loving Christians AFRAID TO LEAVE twi [There are also other types of people, and I'm not pretending there aren't.] The Christians afraid to leave twi are afraid to leave for many reasons. Some are afraid to leave behind friends and family members. Some are afraid to face a completely-changed life. The BIGGEST fear for Christians afraid to leave twi is one that was CAREFULLY CULTIVATED by twi. twi taught-and still teaches- that only twi has "The Truth". (That's one reason vpw had to keep lying that he had no significant sources-the sources were proof that he wasn't the only 'Teacher' with 'The Truth'.) twi thus taught-and still teaches-that to leave 'The Only Group With The Truth' is to leave 'The Truth' and you will be unable to serve God and learn from God if you leave. (I'm not even addressing the 'leave twi and die' stuff.) So, some people leave ANYWAY. Once they have left, many Christians have not surgically-removed all twi doctrine from their brains. It doesn't happen like clicking a screen-icon...it takes TIME, WORK, and INFORMATION. So, many Christians leave twi and think that they can't find ANY places that teach 'The Truth'. So, they say, well, all other Christians teach lies, but other people left twi- maybe I will have a chance to hear 'The Truth' from them. It can't be much worse than what I left. So, they then seek out the extwi groups. It would be of considerable benefit to many of them to learn that other Christians aren't all the undereducated, idolatrous idiots twi has taught they were-and still teach they were. Therefore, it is of considerable benefit for many of them to learn this-which means that a Christian genuinely interested in helping another Christian to let them know that there are many Christians NEVER affiliated with twi who are quite good. (Many people still think "Babylon:Mystery Religion" was accurate, even though the AUTHOR has written a sequel completely REPUDIATING it, and it is useful for them to be told that he wrote such a book, and its name: "the Babylon Connection?") So, is it irrelevant to warn people that a group they are looking into has hurt people in the past? If you say 'yes', what are you doing on the GSC? Is it irrelevant to tell people who have been indoctrinated "only WE know The Truth!" that lots of people know 'The Truth' and not just people who were miseducated the same manner they were? You seem to be saying "Yes" by saying it is irrelevant. I say "Make sure they are INFORMED. Then they can make their own decisions. Thus, more information is a GOOD THING." (So long as it's not lies or misinformation.) ======== "Are we supposed to feel guilty because we enjoy Bible fellowship?" Have you stopped beating your wife? --> Duh. Of COURSE it's not wrong to attend a Bible fellowship, nor is it wrong to ENJOY one. For many people, it's probably the BEST option. HOWEVER, it is NOT the ONLY viable option, and it behooves us (horses have behooves) to point that out, and allow them to seek out what works BEST for THEM. To turn this question around into a different unfair question: "Is it wrong to warn someone when they leave one abusive cult and prepare to join another?" Yes, it's an unfair question. You're making it sound like the Christians onsite all said that the extwi groups are all JUST AS BAD as twi. Of course they didn't say that. There ARE problems and pitfalls to avoid, and it is a GOOD THING to make them aware of them, ISN'T IT?

Hello, ChainClanker. I think CC meant that he/she did not intend to insult any particular ethnicity or "race" or skin colour or whatnot in using a derogatory term that originally was used for one group and has also been used for other groups from time to time. (I have seen someone refer to Middle Easterners as "sand-niggers" when thinking out loud.) Actually, since that usage was by someone in Texas, I think that it might be a regional thing to misuse the word "nigger" by tacking it on to other words and give it a similar meaning. Please remember CC did not ORIGINATE the term, and simply passed along what someone else said (not that s/he was disagreeing with the connotations, but there is a difference.)

Ozzy Osbourne Austin Powers:Goldmember John Travolta [As a special note, Ozzy and John played themselves in Little Nicky and Goldmember.]

*lightbulb* "Man on the Moon". :D--> The Andy Kaufman story. If I'm right, someone else can go ahead and post something.

Sounds vaguely familiar. Something lyrics-driven, like U2 or something....

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/edit...exit-advice.htm I recommend that letter for general advice. (I recommend reading ALL the documents off the main site at least once a year to refresh your memory, but nobody seems to take that advice.) ----- Some things to remember: 1) They will NOT "play fair" with you. Therefore, as with anyone who cheats in a game, the only smart move is not to play. Leave and let people know AFTER THE FACT that you have LEFT. Have a logical set of reasons for those you respect. Some of them-and all the people in the hierarchy- will attack you no matter what you say. They will spread vicious lies about you to those who stayed. Expect that and provide contrary information to those you wish to tell. They're adults and are supposedly able to think on their own. ========= In case you'd like to see the US Declaration of Independence, you may find it many places, including here: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/ As you can see, it wasn't dashed off in a moment. It was the result of the chain of events that preceeded it, and it states several of them. "...a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes.... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." They explained their situation had progressed, and all methods of redress short of independence had proven ineffective. They gave specifics. Ultimately, the only persons you owe an explanation to are yourself and God.

It is understandable, if incorrect, if someone completely unaware how SOME lives were destroyed by twi, forcing people to start from scratch, can lack empathy for those forced to start over. After all, if someone sees someone else in a bad mood, and they're not aware that person's house just burnt to the ground, they might think the person lacks a sense of perspective. In those cases, the person lacking empathy simply needs to educate and inform his/herself better as to the reason for the complaint. twi utterly ruined the lives of some people, and partially ruined the lives of many others. It is understandable that people be angry that someone sucked out their life to further their own creature comforts. (The ultimate goals at the top seem to be the luxuries for the people at the top, purchased at the expense of those coerced into giving 10-15% of their income or facing ostracism and expulsion-after being conditioned to believe that to face such is a death sentence. ============== Further, if a criminal has stolen one's house and car, and is currently enjoying use of both, even if the thefts were decades ago, it is not inappropriate to continue to speak out against them. Finally, if someone is seeking innocents to victimize, it is the moral responsibility of those who know this to warn those who do NOT know this. twi's ability to draw new victims to suck dry has been hobbled by the warnings of people all over the world wide web, and especially here. :)--> So, so long as they seek even ONE more victim, we will continue to speak out and warn the public. LOTS of people read what we post here. ======= Now, there are people who are AWARE what others have suffered thru at the hands of twi, and still tell them to "get over it." Their position is that they were unharmed by twi, and so those who claim that THEY were, are exagerrating or lying. Those who say such things were harmed in a most insidious way, for they WERE harmed- their ability to exercise their senses to discern good and evil has been crippled. So, until they understand the clever nature of the harm that was done to themselves, they will continue, in the manner of one who was abused, to continue the cycle and verbally abuse posters here who tell their stories. I leave it up to each individual poster to examine their own hearts and determine if anything I've said above applies to them. Ironically, those who NEED to do this the MOST are the ones LEAST likely to do so, but that goes without saying.

A little more on Leonard. BG Leonard, of course, is never mentioned in pfal-neither the class nor its books. If he was, someone might have been inclined to read some of his work and spot most of the pfal class. If you dig, the ONLY mention EVER made by vpw to Leonard was in the propaganda book "the Way: living in love". vpw said of Leonard that vpw claimed that he himself took Leonard's work and This, of course, is an outright lie. Leonard WAS great with The Word. That's why early pfal classes were nothing BUT Leonard's work. vpw never "put it all together with The Word" because it was already together with The Word. Mrs W, years later, gave the following account of BG Leonard. This is from "Born Again To Serve", copyright 1996. Seems there's a discrepancy here. vpw claimed BG Leonard wasn't very useful, and not with The Word. Mrs W claimed BG Leonard was indispensible and knew his Bible. In light of the fact that Leonard's explanations FROM the Bible all ended up in pfal, I believe it's clear Mrs W told the truth, and vpw lied thru his teeth. WHY did he lie thru his teeth? Because it allowed him to manipulate his image and appear more impressive, claiming he had unique knowledge and ONLY his group had this special knowledge (which was being taught by Leonard before vpw ever HEARD of him). It was wrong to lie, it was wrong to plagiarize, and it was wrong to misrepresent himself. A man of God ought not to sin so grievously.