WordWolf

You know that what you call "speaking in tongues" is what was once called "speaking in tongues" because twi said they were the same. Period. You have never considered another position. Don't pretend you have seriously examined the implications. Whether or not I ever agree with Goey on something, he always "makes sense". Goey has posted things that "make sense", including his last post. Your inability to understand it makes it less sensible. You can also look at some other sources on the subject. Goey, would you be so kind as to post some links concerning the apologetics of cessationism? This will give Oldies the OPTION of reading them. (Not that I think he WILL, but I may be wrong. It is fair to give him the CHOICE.) Hm. So far, you've demonstrated an inability to read GOEY's post, and now an inability to read MY post explaining his post. You want him to prove a negative? You expected a book to prove all that?Again, if it is NONEXISTENT and you are doing something ELSE, then nobody can show you the original which is NONEXISTENT. Something NONEXISTENT does not EXIST. If it does not EXIST, no one can show it to you. This is NOT a difficult concept to understand. If someone sold you the skeleton of Enoch for $1000, and someone said "Adam died and his bones have been dust for thousands of years," and you replied "If this isn't the real one, then show me the real skeleton of Enoch", then they wouldnt be able to show you THAT, either. This would NOT prove your point. Negatives are not proven. Nor will you seriously consider his position, either. But that's your business. So, Goey is evil for saying you might have been taught wrongly? Or did you just feel like tossing out a platitude at that moment. "This is a Burger King town, and we know how burgers should be." My God, he was right-I feel better now! The Hanging Gardens of Babylon no longer exist. I can't show the real Hanging Gardens to you. The Pharos of Alexandria no longer exists. I can't show you the real Pharos.

Thinking someone is worthy of being actively murdered is one thing. Thinking someone is unworthy of being saved is a question of degree. It's a much less extreme version of the same thing. Thinking someone is unworthy of being saved, then going to "I don't see why God WOULD save you" is a tiny hop, and from thence to "therefore, God CAN'T save you" is another tiny hop. Stop and consider for a moment. twi never wakes up one morning and says "If you owe a credit card company $20, we're kicking you out." They move in little steps until they reach something truly absurd. The old "Romans 10:9" position wasn't wrong, but they moved from there in little (and not-little) steps until they can't see it because it's over the horizon.

As if twi is the sole arbiter of what that IS and is NOT. But that is so much of The Way's problem; they really do believe they are the sole arbiter and interpreter of God's word and will. And they inculcate this belief in their "disciples". That's why I'm not surprised at the responses Georgio got from the Way teens - because it's a heady thing to be plugged into the source for "all truth", to have a ready pat answer for all of life's ills and gray areas, to have access to the inner sanctum secrets. I simply hope they won't get hurt too badly before they decide God and the world are bigger than the Way International. I agree, Kevlar. The one thing I'm surprised about is that he found enough teenagers in twi currently to have a conversation with several. Perhaps it was just the presidential cabinet, online pretending to be teenagers. After all, we know some criminals pretend to be teenagers online...

It's not that big a jump from lcm's comments about how he'd "gladly kill" them if it wasn't illegal.

He's not playing-he IS that dense. It was a goal, he worked hard to reach it. It was a dream-he made it happen. Now anytime he encounters something that would threaten his dichotomic worldview, it might as well be written in Japanese or Chinese. Ever try to read a website written in a language you don't know- like Chinese or Japanese? It's the same thing.

Goey I think you're being kinda wishy washy.I think you'd have a stronger argument to just say SIT died with the apostles and what we do is counterfeit. Or, show us the genuine. Then at least we'd have something to compare our counterfeit tongues to. As the old VP saying goes, "with the coming of the greater, the lesser terminates." Show us the real deal, if you have it... :)--> This is neither "examining the sacred cow", this is "defending it." You supported Goey's statement AFTER he posted it. No-seems he wants to consider things carefully before forming an opinion. Seems he's too busy THINKING to slap down a blanket statement like that. If the cessation position is correct-which he is considering-then it is IMPOSSIBLE to produce the genuine ENTIRELY. So, he can only prove it doesn't exist by bring it out? {quote]Show us the real deal, if you have it.... He said he's unsure he has EVER seen the real deal. Didn't you read what he wrote before replying? Belle had a better approach:

Ok, since this IS predictable, AND SSDD, let's take a look at why EACH and EVERY comment is WRONG-but may convince a teenager lacking experience (which has long been a tactic of twi-fool the young and gullible.) twi tactic one: "First of all, it never happened." This was VERY successful before the internet, and they were able to bury the bodies and they STAYED buried. They are LESS successful now for that reason. They still work part of the time because some people are UNABLE or UNWILLING to look up the truth, thus enabling themselves to think twi isn't lying. Of course, there are also people who straight-out call all the people who come forth "liars", which helps twi in this goal. Belle has already said in reply: "I asked them how they could say they never had a policy on debt when people were kicked out for not selling their homes. They said I was lying-not one person was kicked out for that. When I gave them examples, they started backtracking and making excuses also." Of course, they have no idea that there's been MUCH evil-doing, and many acts that destroyed lives. MANY have come to light-how many have NOT? Belle already said "My ex always says that 'the ministry would be perfect if it weren't for people.' He says people aren't perfect and we can't chuck the whole ministry just because of one person. They justn don't see that it's wayyy more than pne person and that it's the whole system that's corrupt, evil and destructive. 'Tis sad, really." What the HECK does THAT mean? Belle already said "Then out of the other side of their mouth they say no one can argue with your experience when you're witnessing or speaking of TWI's 'blessings'. --> Belle: "Do they, then, think it's ok to plagiarize their school papers? They don't care that he was a thief and a liar???" Actually, Belle, it's part of the "Well, the ONLY place to get "Teh Tr00th" is twi" thinking. This is OBVIOUSLY wrong because A) LOTS of ex-twi teach most of the same thing B) if vpw ripped it off another source, THE OTHER SOURCE HAS THE TRUTH! Standard tactic. Anyone who says what we don't want to hear is LYING. TWI uses it all the time. Some other people also use it ALL THE TIME. Belle said "A liar just because you speak against TWI? Yeah, that makes sense. I see they still have the elitist attitude. Not surprising. As if they ALWAYS speak the truth, and ONLY they speak the truth. Whenever ANY prophet of the LORD warned against Israel or its leaders, this was almost certainly the SAME attitude used then. A prophet was REQUIRED to speak against the KING of ISRAEL AND ALL THE PEOPLE if they were wrong. Well, so much for the "do not be deceived by the 5 senses" thing. Apparently, twi's still big on jettisoning the people who are not financially well-off, and not attracting the broke. "God's Word is only for the middle class." lcm was caught saying that out loud a number of times, and MANY things were told by MANY people to the same effect. "Overweight because you left the way." So, all the fat people have been kicked out when I wasn't looking? Reminds me what one guy said about the young. "People in their 20s don't know anything. The ONE thing people in their 20s are good at, is looking better than people in their 30s and 40s." So, the same people, if STILL in twi in their 40s, have "middle-aged spread" to look forward to, 'and I don't care if you pray or don't pray'. Belle also pointed out "Looks can be decieving. You have more money than they do and most likely have 100x more savings and future security than they do unless they are kids of the almighty BOD or the president's lover. Did they say how much happier and more peaceful that you look? Did they notice that you look more content and satisfied with life? If you've gained weight since leaving TWI, it's because you no longer have to spend all your time jumping through their hoops and you're able to really enjoy your food and afford GOOD food now!" Truth is NOT determined by "how much do people want to hear this" Belle said "What happened to Rise and Expansion?? 'In order to keep an eye on people?' So they ADMIT that they micro-manage people's lives now? They admit they stick their nose where it doesn't belong? Well, that's a start, I guess. Now if they'll just tell people upfront that they're going to do that instead of waiting till after they've 'taken the class'. Belle: "Then HOW DID THEY REDUCE THEIR NUMBERS? BY LOTTERY?" Belle: "Change the subject when you are shown to be wrong. Yeppers! Those kids have learned very well from their parents' examples. Belle: "And nothing bad has EVER happened in their lives? How do they know that people who leave TWI have "streaks of bad luck"? Have they talked to people who have left TWI or are they just believing yet another set of lies fed to them by adults who are supposed to be teaching them truth? Besides that...what the H#ll are they doing using the word 'luck'????" To which I add If you are doing ANYTHING outside twi, to them it's a waste, even if you develop cold fusion and end world hunger. As if twi is the sole arbiter of what that IS and is NOT. They haven't been introduced to the concepts "hypocrisy" or "irony" yet. Hebrews 7:25. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." So much for Hebrews 7:25. Amazing how they supposedly care about the Bible, but can miss something so unambiguous in the version they themselves use....

Allan's reply illustrates what was said on page 9 about him. People post specifics and how people destroyed their lives when they tried to prevent evil from being done, and all he hears is "bwah-bwah-BWAH-bwah" like in those Charlie Brown cartoons. You could hand him court documents asserting the evildoing of people in twi, individually and as a consortium, and he'd STILL defend them, and the next time we discussed it, he'd ask the SAME questions answered in the documents he already read. Frankly reminds me of some lyrics I heard once: From Don Henley's "If Dirt Were Dollars", for those interested.

"I'm saying that if CBS was there, we would have 'made' Sports Spectacular!" "What-you wanna do it again?" "I'll be d*ed-a Kojak with a Kodak!"

Welcome, Penguin. That image and many others are in the GSC Photo Gallery off the main GSC site. I recommend looking thru ALL the sections of the main site. Sometimes people ask for information that's been sitting there for YEARS (people who've been here years.) I'll bet there's at least a FEW documents there that will come as complete shocks to you. (There's the Schoenheit paper that says "the Bible says adultery is always wrong" which resulted in Schoenheit being ostracized and twi said readers of it would get possessed, the audio clip that someone died because a family member left twi, and so on.)

Since I'm pretty sure that was it, I offer this one.... ========== "Hold it! You'd never last five minutes in a New York subway!" *WHAM* *WHAM* "Now, THAT's how it's done!"

I'm partial to Obadiah 1:5 myself. "If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? If the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?"

Well, I know Raf can probably name this one, but I got here first. ;)--> This was the turkey known as "Hot Dog-the Movie".

Was that the movie where the guy bragged about his breakfast towards the end? "I had sunny-side up..."

Uma Thurman Batman and Robin Alicia Silverstone

Well, TempleLady IS on-topic with Allan's posts. Allan has expressed some interesting opinions about hurts in twi... (TempleLady gave one answer to why we don't hear from some.) Well, in some cases, it was "the courts" or "nobody" who prevailed, as TL pointed out. Since that was supposedly the case for Allan, However, Allan's experience was hardly UNIVERSAL, as TL showed.

This is interesting, and I'll need to sit down at some point soon and read all that. I'm initially dubious that this program itself was used in twi. It's not inconceivable that techniques used in this program would resemble techniques used in a LOT of places for conformity or other things, and thus they'd resemble each other without a common origin. Rather than leap to a theory of common origin, I'll remain skeptical of that until and unless sufficient proof is presented otherwise. (Which, of course, may be in those links I haven't reviewed yet.)

The approach advocated by twi had its strengths (it played to some of my strengths), but it also had its glaring weaknesses (which played to mine as well as to others.) It's a cold, intellectual style that fails to touch the heart. If you do things in ADDITION to that, there are benefits. However, to do things ONLY twi's way-which is true for ANY single style- is to adopt their weaknesses as your own. The more time I spend looking at the implementation in twi, the more I become convinced that vpw taught a mechanized path is because it can be observed, and it covers his own deficiencies in understanding deeper matters of God that are NOT dependent upon cold intellect.

Alan, that was truly uncalled for. You don't act very "Christian" to me. From one Christian to another, I would much rather hang out with the so called pagans, witches and new agers than with you. Don't know why I didnt feel the need to comment on this before, but... Allan, I get more respect from pagans and atheists than I get from you. I also GIVE them more respect than I get from you, which, I think, is an important reason I GET respect from them. Please remember that the best way to have friends is to BE one. Further, consider these 2 examples. Example 1: I interact with non-Christians. I refrain from hitting them with a 2 x 4 at every opportunity, and I maintain a firm conviction that the Bible is true (without insisting they agree.) When the subject comes up, I demonstrate SENSIBLY that there are reasons to believe it's true, and not just a matter of "blind faith". As a result, I've seen some of THEM whack non-Christians who say ALL Christians are fools- they have counter-examples. Example 2: Someone arrives on a board, insists he knows better than everyone else, derides non-Christians present, and slams Christians who say things he doesn't like. Christians and non-Christians remind him that there are RIGHT and WRONG ways to behave. Of the 2 examples, which poster is behaving in the manner that CHRIST would recommend? Which poster is behaving closer to the style of the Apostle Paul, who was all things to all men that by all means he might save some?

Times changed longer ago than you think. I, personally, am aware that there were Roman Catholic CLASSES, Roman Catholic CHARISMATICS, and BOOKS on Charismatics in the Roman Catholic Church in the SEVENTIES. twi didnt exist in a void. Just as other groups benefited from the Jesus People movement, many groups were talking charismatics at the time, back when vpw was putting forth he was the "only" one teaching them.

Did you get your attention to detail (close reading skills) from The Way? Or were you already predisposed to it? One from Column A, one from Column B. I was predisposed towards it, but I never had a SYSTEMATIC approach, and exposure to Bullinger's keys from "How to Enjoy the Bible" (featured in pfal-the class and books, and the bookmark with the keys) fit my approach and helped me REFINE it. At the same time, I DO think there are times that a systematic approach can find excruciating minutiae and turn out to be completely WRONG, so I try not to worship my techniques, either. ("Must know when to break the rules.") That's because I didn't give her ALL my musings. I had a list of suspects for the HBP, and NONE of them were in the ballpark. In fact, my initial suppositions on figuring him out were wrong. Also, in all fairness, I do have the benefit of OTHER people's musings-I'm not claiming that WWP's books are my own. ;)--> (You can look them up on Mugglenet-the Unofficial Guide, the Plot Thickens, etc.) My best skill there is filtering between guesses and educated guesses. Meanwhile, I thought we were discussing twi...

If you are connected to the internet AT ALL, you need a firewall- dialup connection included. There's a number of free, reliable firewalls. (Usually, there's at least one free, reliable program for EVERYTHING.) I've never had a problem with ZoneAlarm. Others here have sworn by Avast! and Kerio. There are other free firewalls people like-like Tiny Personal Firewall and Sygate- but those 3 have been recommended by users HERE. ==== If you want to see how desperately you need a firewall, go to http://www.grc.com and run the online test "Shields Up". That will simulate actions by hackers and give you the results. To give you a basis of comparison, my results say something like "not only can't we get in, we can't prove there's a computer on your end of the connection", and I use free programs only. :)--> ======== You can find the download sites for ZoneAlarm, Avast! and Kerio pretty easily. Just use THEIR websites and not a 3rd party. ======== Now, EVERYBODY should use a software firewall. A router is a good addition as a hardware firewall. The reason you should STILL have a software firewall is that a hardware firewall does NOTHING to affect OUTGOING traffic. So, if something DOES sneak in, a router is useless against it. A SOFTWARE firewall, however, will still control outgoing traffic, and notify you of attempts to dial out from your computer, thus telling you something's trying to dial out. A software firewall thus forms a last line of defense for a router-user.

I believe I learned some useful Bible stuff. Whether I learned anything else WITH it, or whether I would have learned it elsewhere, are outside the scope of this thread.

WhiteDove, rascal? I believe you two are mature adults who've just had a bit of a miscommunication and a derailment. Can I ask for a few deep breaths and pretending we all just have been chatting affably over cheese and crackers? (I'm offering the same, WD.)

They've only scratched the surface. I'm sure it's news to you that all entrants to the way corps were required to write an autobiography called "From Birth to the Corps." Actually, THAT part is common knowledge. What was NOT common knowledge was the 2 uses to which they were put. A) vpw marked those women with histories of surviving abuse- since abuse survivors make easier victims for future predators- and THOSE women were targeted for molestation, rape, etc by him B) when people left twi, those "confidential" papers were dug out, and used as "proof" the person had "backslidden into old sins" rather than escaping because twi was evil. Most people have NO IDEA twi has done these things, at the directive of vpw and others.