WordWolf

Ok, here's what I said. [twi was set up from the top bosses. The top bosses decided what to do. The top bosses set up a marketing scheme. The top boss himself ripped off quality work from others, slapped a new label on it, and claimed it was HIS work and it was the result of his special connection with God since he was so special. Based on THIS cornerstone deception, he built the organization of twi. He and a handful of others knew this was all wrong, and did it anyway. They were bad men doing bad things. Then genuine godly people like Heefner and Doop and many others came along. They were tricked into thinking he had a special connection with God and that all that was HIS work when it wasn't. So, they recruited people into his organization. Were they participants with less than perfect motives? NO, THEY had completely PURE motives. Does that mean everyone had pure motives? NO, the Lords over God's Heritage were bad men. THOSE men did not have good motives. Believers here and there tried to bless others. The ORGANIZATION tried to get their money. Was that simple enough? I'm insulting the tiny handful at the TOP who were involved for year and years, not the vast majority BELOW them...] ======== So, Oldiesman skipped most of what I said, and commented on this comment: [He and a handful of others knew this was all wrong, and did it anyway. They were bad men doing bad things.] Oldies' reply: "WordWolf, that is your distorted, corrupted, one-sided, evil-surmising, tunnel-vision view of things that I do not share with you. I guess you really must think that you are God, the Searcher of all hearts?" So, I reply to this... [No, Oldies, I still don't think I'm God nor the Searcher of all hearts. I AM able to tell what's in the heart of someone based on their ACTIONS, and it is their ACTIONS I judge. As to the long list of insults to my view of things, let's see who is tracking reality properly. I said "twi was set up from the top bosses. The top bosses decided what to do." That, I expect, is "by definition" and is not in dispute. "The top bosses set up a marketing scheme." pfal was specifically set up as a business. Everyone was expected to pay RETAIL for pfal and take it, live or later on tape. All twig members were expected to be graduates of all the classes within a reasonable time after they were 'made available'. All twig members were expected to own all the twi-produced books within a reasonable time after they were 'made available.' (And charged RETAIL for.) All twig members were expected to pay a MINIMUM of 10% of their income-the tithe- and later, to 'abundantly share' above that. Have you EVER heard of any OTHER group that even SUGGESTED giving them ALL your money beyond survival? twi had a NAME for it, which means they had a DOCTRINE for it. That they did this is now largely a matter of public record. That it is wrong is evident to most unbiased people. That they KNEW what they were doing should not really be under dispute. They were adults and made adult decisions regarding money, policy, and so on, and arranged policy to maximize MONEY. That this is WRONG should really not be news to a Christian. That THEY knew it was wrong should also not be news. They chose to do things they knew to be bad. Therefore, 'bad men doing bad things.] So far, looks like I have a case supporting my claims. So far, looks like Oldies has a tantrum and some insults "supporting" his claims. ========= I also said this: ["The top boss himself ripped off quality work from others, slapped a new label on it, and claimed it was HIS work and it was the result of his special connection with God since he was so special. Based on THIS cornerstone deception, he built the organization of twi."] Oldies replied: "Balderdash. Whether or not VP had a special connection with God, VP told us that his stuff was not original, so you are just blowing smoke again." ====== So, I reply again.... [vpw's "ministry" was totally unremarkable until he took BG Leonard's CTC class twice, the second time, with several other people taking it the first time. Three months later, vpw told BG Leonard he would be running his (BG Leonard's) class for his congregation once on a one-time basis, getting BG Leonard's permission to do so. vpw sent Leonard a photograph of the graduating class for his photo album. Meanwhile, that SAME class, he told the STUDENTS that this was his OWN class on "Power for Abundant Living." He NEVER announced "this is BG Leonard's class which I'm just reciting because videotapes haven't been invented yet." Its contents were 100% Leonard's class from 3 months ago. Over time, he added material from books by JE Stiles and EW Bullinger. At no point did he actually say "this material on the holy spirit field, it is a compilation of the work of Leonard, Stiles, and Bullinger, which I have done my best to improve upon." If he had said exactly that, I would have NO complaint of this type. Anyone reading the introduction/preface to the Orange or White Books would read an intro saying vpw found other Christians useless in his searches for knowledge, and he made these "discoveries" on his own. Compared to all of that, a few off-the-cuff comments that what he did wasn't original (rather than cite very SPECIFIC sourcebooks and one class) hardly counts. It SUGGESTS he picked up things here and there, not entire chapters and sessions from a very few number of sources. Since we've discussed the plagiarism issue for months and months, it is disingenuous-to say the least-to pretend ignorance of the SPECIFIC charges. Given that there are rather specific specifics, especially the "genesis" of the first pfal class (plagiarizing 100% of Leonard's class, changing only the teacher and class name), it should be obvious to most people (other than Oldies) that this is far more than "blowing smoke", it would have been an open-and-shut case if Leonard had exercised his legal options rather than letting it go. ============= Again, my comments on Heefner and Doop (and many, many others) were: "Then genuine, godly people like Heefner and Doop and many others came along. They were tricked into thinking he had a special connection with God and that all that was HIS work when it wasn't. So they recruited people into his organization. Were they participants with less than perfect motives? NO, THEY had completely PURE motives. Believers here and there tried to bless others."] Oldies reply to this? "Did it ever occur to you that maybe folks like Heefner and Doop and so many others who recruited folks into twi, did it not because of VP's perceived special connection with God, or because they thought VP was so great, or even because of VP AT ALL; but because they honestly wanted folks to be blessed and come to a greater knowledge of the truth, just like they had?" Now, anyone ELSE who read my comments should have no need of a reply. They "tried to bless others", they "had pure motives", they were "genuine, godly people." Obviously, the reason they fell for vp's deception WAS that they wanted to serve God the best they could. They were tricked into thinking that was with vpw's class. (DUUUUUUUUHHHH.)] Oldies continued: "Lots of ex-twi folks bear witness to the fact that they learned many truths in twi, and wanted to share them." [DUUUUHHH. Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger knew their stuff. If the CONTENT wasn't good, the deception would have fooled nobody.] "Nothing wrong with that..." [somebody said there WAS? THEY were fine. Might try reading my posts...] "It is an insult to the entire family of God, who wanted to move the Word over the world and bless folks with the word of God, whether they were on the BOT, or a leaf on the tree." [Actually, what's an insult to them is that you continually lump in those with godly intentions doing the best they can, with the handful who acted for filthy lucre's sake. THAT's a "universal blanket insult."] ================ Of course, all of the name-calling is to distract from this:

[since you brought up some of your previous statements, and "clearing up" what you meant, What DID you mean by "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." We know you were actually SERIOUS and not joking, because when someone asked "So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand?" you responded with "Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once." So, go ahead, "clear the air." What did you mean when you (totally) seriously said that "Christ in his glory will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it"? While we're at it, you might want to explain "Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so." I figure the answer for one is probably related to the answer for the other. Rather than just presume that, I'll ask you outright-again-to speak plainly. So far, all good-faith attempts to get plain answers have been met with obfuscations and smokescreens, but you MIGHT give a straight answer. ]

[And it's STILL wrong.] [shame on you for distorting what I said.I never impugned the MOTIVES of the candidates, nor did Groucho. Shame on you for CONTINUING to distort what I said after I spelled out how you DISTORTED it AGAIN. Shame on you for taking attention off the ones who DID such things-running the programs- and slapping such a label on their well-meaning victims-the candidates.] BINGO. THERE we have it. THERE's the reason for the complete distortion of what was said. Oldies spent time in the wow program, Oldies spent time in twi, and was unwittingly engaged in their programs of deceit, MLM and money-grubbing. Oldies never MEANT to do anything other than glorify God, but twi deceived him and he ended up doing something else. Rather than blame THEM for their deceit, and living wiser and warier, Oldies refuses to admit there was ever any problem- which means Oldies NEVER did anything less than pristine. Bravo, Oldies! You've succeeded in keeping white gloves spotless while blood spattered on the others....] [And yet, when we DO speak of what we've seen, and discussed same, Oldies CAN'T leave that ALONE....]

[WordWolf in brackets again...]

Everything TWI did WAS for the money, or something to GET the money. (Unless it was for the horizontal-mambo for the mog, or alcohol or tobacco for him.) Exploitation has been demonstrated and explained. The bait-and-switch was also demonstrated and explained. He never said people got involved so they could shake people down. (You're not reading "what is written".) People joined with good intentions, and were indoctrinated and trained to shake people down for money. "Wholesale false accusations", right.... Don't you get tired of continually whitewashing the entire history of twi when people are discussing personal experience?

I noticed that you switched topics on us.... We were discussing how twi tought that people not born again are "spiritual empties", and not worth consideration. I noticed you skipped over my post on this. So, since you missed it, here it is again. (You're welcome.)

lcm was taught the sexual exploits by his "mentor", who made his student twofold the child of hell that he himself was. As for running off the non-corrupt people, twi does that periodically. It's one cost for doing business when you just want the money and power and are lying to the people. I'd spend at least a full year completely separated from twi and splinters.You'd be surprised how savvy some of the local churches can be. (Not all, but you knew that part.) Expected, possibly-but they were still crimes and vile things to do to people. That corruption is predictable does not excuse the criminal (nor those absolving him-and I DON'T mean you.) The centralization was vpw's whole idea, and that's why he made twi in the FIRST place. (Check out the thread "the way:living in wonderland" for discussion of this subject.) So, it's impossible to reform something that was designed specifically to do wrong. Just gut it and start from scratch. Well, you're ahead of some people. We've got some who insist that non-twi, non-splinter Christians are ALL idiots. If you got a great start, fantastic. However, I'd use it as a START and see what all other Christians have to offer. My position while IN twi was that-if we really were the best- that I could take things to another level by adding the best of what other Christians could offer to what we knew. That's why it was a less drastic shock to discover Christians who knew stuff. I'd expect better from them, and DEMAND better from them. That is, if they're "walking the walk" (demonstrating LOVE, not LEGALISM), and don't care about the money-they care about YOU, and aren't smug about having THE Truth, and are fine with Christians disagreeing, then great. Otherwise, pack up and move on. Many Christians demand better-so they GET better.

I was waiting for CONFIRMATION. You know-proof I wasn't mistaken? ========= "Sugar Plum Fairy came and hit the streets Looking for soul food and a place to eat."

[More than one opinion, the horror....] [A) Some of his teachings-like the "law" of believing-are wrong B) his counsel was questionable at best. He was a bad husband, but gave marriage advice unsolicited. C) "focusing on his personality". Actually, vpw started that. Besides, his "carnality" may well be a human thing, but his EAGERNESS to satisfy the lusts of the flesh was INAPPROPRIATE and DISGRACEFUL in a minister of God. If Jeffrey Dahmer had surived jail and gotten born again, and wanted to address twi, they'd hurry to judge him on his "carnality", of course.]

A) No, it didn't "have to". B) You can't turn away from something you never had. False Premise. twi was NOT build primarily on what twi always CLAIMED twi was about. As you can see from this quote, the "centrality and authority of God's Word" always meant less than "our Father in the Word" at hq-which means that's how it was taught. Some people are STILL like that. If they weren't, vpw would be a footnote to them, a tool for a job, rather than a revered figure who did little wrong (to THEM).

He was teaching that in the '80s, and possibly in the later '70s. I wish I had the phrase exactly. "The only farm that sows spiritual seed and" something-something. I dont feel like digging thru days of tapes to find it.

"Oh, would you like to be born again, have God's spirit living within, and be better off than you've been.... ....Or would you rather be a jug? A jug is a human being with nothing inside. He's cracked but he's covered up with pride. He dresses flashy in the latest style But he's just an empty on the rubbish pile So if you let Satan use you for a rug, you may grow up to be a jug. ...Or would you rather be a snake? A snake is a child of the father of lies. Someday he'll be getting a surprise. He looks as righteous as an Eagle Scout but the wrong seed's in him and it won't come out. So if you like swimming in a firey lake, you may grow up to be a snake. ....Or would you rather be a goat? A goat is a guy who says he don't need 'the class'. When we go to twig, he goes to Mass. He worships idols but he serves himself. His good news Bible's sitting on the shelf. So if religion has got you by the throat, you may grow up to be a goat." This was the second song off an album released in the early 1980s. The album has a recorded opening intro/teaching by The Big Forehead himself. Oldies, you'll still find your copy in your tape library (or I'll be disappointed in you.) You've listened to this tape before, I'm pretty sure. What words of outrage did you direct to people concerning the casual dismissal of all other Christians, and all non-Christians? All Christians were dismissed with "he worships idols but he serves himself", while many Christians don't even have statues of ANY kind, let alone idols. As for serving himself, how was he different from twi members? Oh, that's right-they served lcm, which was a more noble calling. Finally, all other Christians skip reading their Bibles? Didn't get around much... How about the non-Christians who were "just empties on a rubbish pile?" lcm ENDORSED the contents of this tape, specifically. He called the songs "thought-provoking" and "spiritual satire". He outlined what each song was about, and demonstrated a knowledge of their contents. (Go ahead-replay it.) lcm also didn't consider this "offensive". He thought there were ways to use these songs (which includes that one) as a prelude to a teaching on its specific subject. In this particular case, that would have meant a teaching that explained how non-Christians were "empties on a rubbish pile." This was not "inner sanctum". I'd say almost all twi-ers who had ANY music tapes back then-which was more than 1/2, I'd say- had this in their collection.

We HAD a post some time ago where someone mentioned walking in on Donna and Rozilla just after "the crime blazed". We also heard from people who'd been in one hotel room that the 2 of them preferred when travelling. It has one bed. Of course, that, in and of itself, is not proof of ANYTHING. However, when everything is taken into account, I think a rather specific picture emerges. Rozycheeks is unmarried. Donna is either de facto or de jure unmarried (either legally or effectively divorced.) Donna's reasons for marrying lcm-whom she barely knew at the time-were SOLELY on the basis of his being a rising star and she was going to marry one no matter what they had to say on the subject. (Check the "vp and me in wonderland" thread for the long version of this, complete with discussion.) Rozilla had a lesbian couple staying in her house as renters (or something equivalent.) They love to travel in style, and get the best stuff. However, they don't get separate rooms while travelling, or separate BEDS, and they certainly aren't motivated by "saving money." Therefore, they CHOSE to share a bed, for reasons unclear. Even without someone walking in on them "after", there's a lot that can't really be explained if that's NOT what's going on.

Actually, that was "Hexegeckomai." I listened for it and got much amusement from it. I figured it was some sort of small 6-sided lizard.

The "DL" is short for "the DownLow". These expressions really come as news to you people?

"..you'll feel The Power of Love!" Huey Lewis and the News. Also on the "Back to the Future" soundtrack, and-don't blink-Huey's in the movie! Look for Marty's audition towards the beginning. One judge says "Sorry guys-you're just too loud..."

They weren't too SCARED. They lacked the wit to detect a joke. They were selected and trained to follow orders INTHINKINGLY. So, when lcm announces the name of a program, that's the name no matter how ridiculous. If lcm had announced a new 2-week class called the "Abundant Dogsh** of the Prevailing Household", they would have believed there was a class with that name. (Here, stand still a minute while I shave your head.)

As always, we're looking for events centering around this time. Recollections of EVERY kind would be appreciated. To help "jog" your memory, here's a few events from twi and US history for that timeframe: 1980:(just before we start): "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. It was written by the research staff, and says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. 1981: Sandra Day O'Connor becomes the first female Supreme Court Justice. 1981: "Dynasty" first airs, as does "Hill Street Blues." 1981:Iran releases the embassy hostages. 1982: twi manufactures a 40th anniversary. 1982: vpw installs lcm as president. 1982: "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" is published. See the note about JCOP. 1983: Reagan begins implementation of the "Star Wars" Strategic Defense Initiative. 1984: live pfal at Camp Gunnison. 1984:Gartmore House is purchased in Gartmore, Scotland, and named the "Way College of Biblical Research."

Someone already mentioned the duck. The donkey thing is here: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/donkey.htm

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.] [Mike, thanks so much for demonstrating for the new people, in one post, that your methods of reading and comprehension are grossly-deficient to be trusted to correctly convey the contents of a fast-food menu, let alone what is "God-breathed" or not. That saved me a LOT of time.]

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.] [Oh, that's right- exposing Mike's doctrine to the light of truth is tantamount to attacking God Almighty! ] [This "greatest commandment" you claim we're violating- this is the "not mastering pfal" thing when you're saying this, correct? Feel free to refuse to give a "yes-no" answer to this- EVADING a simple "yes-no" answer will be quite informative to the peanut gallery.] [vpw admitted it a few times, but he didn't let that admission interfere with the raping and drugging and molesting, and the other stuff. When you say you don't revere his sin, I won't challenge that. I will ask about your comments about vpw's PERSON, which you claim you don't REVERE. You've previously claimed that vpw "was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn", that he was "overgifted", and that "where he walked, the earth shook." Are you denying that you made these claims now, or are you denying that these claims qualify as "REVERING" vpw? Feel free to refuse to answer that one as well- refusing to explain how claiming these things supposedly are statements of fact and not vapid worship and a violation of one of the 10 Commandments will ALSO be quite informative on its own to those reading along...]

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.] [Mike's handing out homework AGAIN. Mike STILL thinks he's our teacher, when he hasn't even demonstrated he can KEEP UP....]

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.] [Told you Mike would never give a clear, unambiguous answer. If he did, and you satisfied it, and it STILL didn't work, he'd be unable to "move the goalposts" and claim you never REALLY "mastered pfal". It's the same tactic when his supposed "law" of believing fails most of the time. Excuse after excuse is dragged in to attempt to conceal the failure of a so-called "law". Plus, Mike would be unable to just tell you stuff and have you take orders if you were on the SAME level or HIGHER than him.... I honestly tried before to help him crystallize his doctrine into something clear and unambiguous that others could either accept or reject as they saw fit. Mike still insisted on vagueness, on being able to reinterpret things later to suit him. Mike will change when the leopard changes his spots.]

[see, Mike doesn't care about ANY consequences except ONE: Whether a man of God can SIN and SIN, and then be counted on to write Scripture. That's why Mike fixates on David and tries to add all kinds of things to his story to try to make it resemble vpw's life.] [That's easy. You look at the life of the person FOLLOWING the incident, and what they do over the long run. As was already pointed out ABOVE, I Kings 15:5 "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." I take it God Almighty is considered an EXPERT WITNESS in the subject of "people's hearts", and his EXPERT TESTIMONY is that David DID NOT SIN after that. Mike's speculations on David have CONTINUED to CONTRADICT the EXPERT TESTIMONY of GOD ALMIGHTY. When considering who to believe, I pick GOD ALMIGHTY over Mike the human anytime. Compare this to vpw, whom, we have many, many, many eyewitness and VICTIM accounts, lived a life of sin and made arrangements to FACILITATE (make it easier to) sin. Need I go into that all over again? Mike's been missing that for YEARS already....] [If God ever needs some extra cash, I'll let Him know He has options. ] [Ah, the famous "if God knew something bad would happen, and didn't stop it, He must have approved" straw man. I thought we stomped this into the ground in the early 1990s. Apparently not. Look- God allows man free-will. Period. Don't like it? Take it up with God. ] [Mike ran out of defenses on this, so he volunteered to stop trying to defend it. Very generous of him. The fox also offers the duck its pond, also.]