WordWolf

Good point. Is there a fundamental difference between the showoff on the motorcycle, and the preacher claiming God showed him secrets hidden for 19 centuries? Were both just ways of saying "Everyone-look at me! I'm special! Listen to me-I have special answers!" His job-which he accepted-was to pastor his congregation. Instead, he applied a heavy-handed approach, and kept looking for ways to get people to listen to him, and looked for bigger audiences. Where does "shedding light" come in, and what does it mean in this context? I like flashlights. They shed light. I'm sure that's not what you mean..

Sharp fellow. As to the handful of teens at Stuyvesant, I might go so far as to claim it was overcompensation for being #3 in schools behind Bronx HS of Science and Brooklyn HS of Technology, but I don't think that's it. *snicker* I think it's just a handful of kids that have no idea what they want, and no idea what they're doing, and have insufficient boundaries imposed by their parents (they can find an empty apt regularly?), and they're trying out what they're thinking of as pleasure without consequence... I figure sooner or later, thru hurt feelings, actual thinking or discovering they have a disease, they'll realize there ARE consequences. Hey-if the drugs-and-free-sex generation that attended Woodstock grew up to be the yuppies of the 80s, I think a handful of kids with no rules won't wreck Western civilization.

Harmonica.... "In fact-I don't mean ANY of this-still my confession draws you near...." "the Hook", by Blues Traveller. Only song I know offhand that mentions Anne Boleyn. :) I THINK that's it.

We can't read his mind-but we can review his actions. Here's what we know-from twi SOURCES. He started out as a kid on a farm who avoided farmwork. Rather than inherit the farm, he was convinced he'd do better with a college education. Initially, he had not decided on the ministry-he considered it one option among SEVERAL, like business and so on. Until he met R1nker, he did not BELIEVE the Bible was God's Word. By that time, he had completed his undergraduate work and gotten a Bachelor's degree, AND had been preaching for a year. When faced with many areas to study-Bible languages, Bible history, church history-he selected "homiletics", or "preaching", which, compared to everything else, is an incredibly "soft option". He picked the course with the least work. Only a few months into a "lifetime serving God", he was frustrated and repeatedly considered giving up. All of this is "public record." Adding that the neighbors all thought he was a showoff, a bully, and was a lousy choice for a minister, and adding that his personality didn't improve thru the entire decade of the 1940s (supposedly following a promise of God), I think the completed picture supports strongly that he was not "called" to the ministry except by ambition.

Can we get another quote from this song?

Well, he might mean "all churches are evil", OR he might mean "By defining your needs/wants, you can better determine which churches are best qualified to fill them." I would ask "what are you looking for?" If it's for "caring Christians", you'll find them in better supply than twi has all over the place. If it's for "manifestations of the spirit", you'll want something charismatic or Pentecostal. If it's for "doctrine I agree with," you'll want one of the splinter groups. That's only a FEW examples.

I agree it's probably not the CACHE that's doing this, and we can help you work it out. However, to answer your question, if you're using Internet Explorer, no. If you're using Firefox, you can clear the cache as follows: Tools-> Options -> Privacy -> Cache -> OK. You can clear cookies and history at the same time as the cache. I would answer Bluzeman's question. I would also tell us the answers to these common questions: ========= What is your operating system? (Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP?) What firewall do you use? What antivirus do you use?

John 16:7. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." So, seated at the right hand of The Father, check. Ever our advocate with The Father, check. Comforter was sent here, check. Unless someone's equating the Comforter here with the Lord THERE, then, no, he's not here in any OTHER sense. Inasmuch as Jesus AND the Comforter make known God, then one might say something like that. Kinda.

They have been indoctrinated that ALL the Christians outside the organization are SCUM. They think that their doctrines are the be-all and end-all of Christianity, and anyone who disagrees has "forsaken the truth", even though God answers their prayers and they're a LOT more joyful and prosperous than twi'ers. twi tries to keep them from ANY honest interaction and evaluation of outside Christians, because twi innies are among the most miserable Christians alive today. In the US, most Christians are a LOT happier.

I think this is how it worked in his little pea-brain. He imagined people would FLOCK to his wap class. He imagined that if followers were talking to white-collar workers, middle management and higher, people in the upper middle class, that those people would somehow be added, as if they were brushed with duct tape or something and dragged along. So, people with more money would magically be added to the group, and they would pay 10/15/20% of their income, which-since they had larger salaries, meant 'mo money, 'mo money, 'mo money to twi. And, yes, it completely failed, partly because twi had nothing these people WANTED. Being in twi would present a dramatic step DOWN for these people. The are used to MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS and THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. Giving up 1/5 of their income for the "privilege" of hearing lukewarm, average (or worse) teachings on a phone hookup, then RETAUGHT on the tape, then RE-RETAUGHT in the magazine, then RE-RE-RETAUGHT live during the week? Where do I sign up? :unsure:

It bore repeating.

Contrast that to Solomon, say, who got to ask ANYTHING from God, and asked for WISDOM-so he could rule God's people wisely. (Otherwise, he would still have ruled them...) So, vpw wanted EVERYONE TO LISTEN TO HIM. THAT's why he wanted answers. NOT so that he could help people-we know he was plenty loud when he KNEW he had no answers- but so EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM, and his congregation would GROW. You know, the people giving him MONEY. =========== No, I don't think the incident happened, but even his construction of it is very telling. Further, he's never seen HEAVY SNOW before. He described a heavy blizzard white-out as looking "BLACK". No, it all looks "WHITE"-it is a "WHITEOUT" condition. As in "Oscar, is there a blizzard outside?" *looks* "I can't tell-it's all white!" One of these days, I'll sit down and compile all the different accounts he's "officially" given of this supposed incident that still completely failed to change his life, except in how HE describes his life. ========== Finally, my favourite... Mrs W leaves out something very interesting when she discusses this incident. "never told anyone" "kept to himself" She didn't say "EXCEPT ME". If such a thing REALLY HAD HAPPENED, wouldn't the FIRST words out of his mouth, upon encountering his wife again, be "I've GOT to tell you what happened today..." HOWEVER, SHE didn't hear this until the early 1970s, nearly 30 years after it supposedly happened. (I get that date because she also said he told it first to the corps, and they didnt begin until 1969 with the Zero Corps. Therefore, he told-at earliest-the FIRST Corps, 1970 or later.)

Well, it DIDN'T. He SAID it was the same program. To claim it's the same program is as accurate as claiming his Kindergarten was the same as his Doctorate program. Based on WHAT? He JUST started READING the Bible!Must have been all "music" and homiletics. They provided the music, he provided the homiletics. Before this, radio had Christian music, and had homiletics, and had BOTH. (Fuller, for one.) NOTHING was original in this, except adding vpw's name. Lie. TRUTH. Must be harsh for the Sunday morning services of the past year- he wasn't going to the Word for 2-3 new teachings a week. He must have been getting material outside the Word- that wasn't "NEW"-meaning he got them from somewhere ELSE and taught them. And, of course, the only people he could GET was young people,and, having no background, they worked for FREE for experience, and he was able to pad his OWN resume and add the show. One young guy, four young women. Hmmm........

MRS w says Which I believe.Then, of the same timeframe, vpw describes the SAME thing as such: So, Mrs W saw this as him learning, but vpw claims it was ENTIRELY because they were impressed with him as a professional. Actually, they saw he had a degree, and asked him to EDIT. If they were REALLY impressed with him, they would have asked him to WRITE. Big difference. As an editor, he cleans up the grammar, spelling, punctuation and so on of the writers. He's not kidding, either.This was his first exposure to taking the work of other Christians, reviewing it, and making modifications to it. All he had to add later was "cross out their names, and write his own name in crayon" and he'd have his signature style for his career all the way through 1980! Ok, we've got the tithing thing origin, and the origin of "Vesper Chimes" the radio show here. Of course, you can't do a radio show with music and stuff with older people, that's a younger people activity. He saw Fuller do it and it worked, so vpw did the same thing and tried to make it work. It didn't work as well becasue Fuller "was such a humble man and wanted to bless people." As opposed to vpw who.... And put forth ALWAYS that it was a church with "ANSWERS" despite his personal conviction that he HAD none. But, make no mistake, he no doubt would call it "the GREATEST CHURCH" something something.

Most people would have either used a room IN the church, or a "home office" or BOTH.vpw instead chose to PAY MONEY to RENT and make into an "office/study". The only POSSIBLE advantage I could see is that it gives him PRIVACY. Can anyone see any other reason for a separate office? If not, why did he want PRIVACY? I'd LOVE one photo of how he furnished it... Somehow I skipped over this, but others caught it. AGAIN, whatever vpw got ahold of was "the best". This seems to have been an unbreakable habit of his- ALWAYS the best, never "serviceable" or "well". I also noticed that this was right after his MASTERS. Thus, he knew he didn't have a DOCTORATE, yet he thought it was the best education money could buy-although it was INCOMPLETE as far as "money could buy". I also noticed his life-histories always gloss over Pike's Peak. They never mention the YEAR he graduated. We know it wasn't now because he graduated with his Masters in 1941 (presumably Spring-thus May/June, and started his first pastorate-this one- July 1941. So, there was no time for him to START a Doctorate program yet. "Bible study and teacher-training". But this was BEFORE he believed that the Bible was God's Word and he actually started READING it. What was he basing this "training" on? All he was trained in was "Homiletics", or "how to give a sermon". But he knew he was lacking in ANSWERS. How then did he expect their "edification and growth"? It wasn't until AUGUST 1942 that he even MET Rosal1nd R1nker! And he ALREADY was discouraged and was searching. Hm. July 23, 1942, he writes "Your response will help to determine the value of this column..." and in AUGUST 1942, he's ready to give up being a minister. Seems not only was he desperate for approval, he had no endurance in him. No IMMEDIATE applause means he's ready to quit. If he wasn't getting attention, by gum, he's wasting his time! But, having FOUND nothing, he STILL guaranteed results, as you see.... In other words, vpw knew, in 1942, that he had NO ANSWERS and was FRUSTRATED that he was UNABLE to HELP people, THEN went out and began a newspaper column promising ANSWERS and HELP to people. In other, other words, he intentionally sold an EMPTY BOX labelled "color tv" to people. In other, other, other words, he intentionally tried to convince people he had answers which he was CONVINCED he did NOT have. In other, other, other, other words, he was a fraud from the beginning of his "professional career" as a minister.

Any chance we can get a "wonderland" format thread on this book, skyrider? I for one would love the additional insight we get from the information plus the group analysis...

Between ROA 88 and ROA 89, approximately 80% of twi had left. (Meaning 80% of the people IN as of the opening of ROA 88 had left before the opening of ROA 89.) As some people here pointed out, some of those people left at least partly as a result of PoP or the other stuff, and lcm's "oath of loyalty" thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. Some people had left BEFORE ROA 88, the largest group as a result of PoP plus the Adultery thing plus the travelling leadership. I remember that BEFORE ROA 88, their bookstore had already stopped restocking JAL's books, and the current catalogs had their listings taped over. AFTER ROA 89, and thru 1990, a number of people who were in as of ROA 89 had left. That includes some of the music groups and people who were appointed Limb Coordinators after the PREVIOUS Limb coordinators were fired in 1989. That could be checked because ROA 89 introduced the current roster of Limb Coordinators. Since, statistically, 80% of them were new to their office, it made sense to introduce them. Also, the 'put them onstage' thing was a pat on the back for choosing to stay rather than desert the ship as soon as it started to sink. So, during the late 80s overall, including 1989 and into 1990, twi lost MORE than 80% of its followers, and statistics I read put them at something like 17% of previous membership as of 1991, which means they lost 83%, depending on when the count was counting from. After that, each year, twi experienced "negative population growth", meaning more people were leaving each year than were arriving each year.

You guys do know a "drink", for purposes of games like this, is a "SIP", and "2 drinks" is "2 sips", and only "DRAIN GLASS" means you have to finish a beverage, right? I mean, you could take very SMALL sips. (Then again, I knocked a few conditions down from 3 to 2, and 2 to 1...) Teetotalers could always have an incredibly weak rum and coke or something, or just drink a soft drink, so long as they kept up. The game would be more about the game, and not the intoxication. Then again, if we DID use the "chorus choir", we'd probably have to only run the game until the teaching started. Between their introduction, the cheezy stage-time, and opening prayers and songs, most of us would be pretty finished off.

"Office Space"???

I like that line with the preceeding line, "One likes to believe in the freedom of music, but glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity." A quick indictment of the music industry, and not a new story.... Yes, that's "Dance Hall Days", by Wang Chung. This song means they're not a "one-hit-wonder", since they had 2 hits. 'Wang Chung', if memory serves, means "perfect pitch", approximately. Your turn again, Mr Weapon. ;)

Well, we knew he wasn't "particularly patient" because he always took the LAZY solution to problems. We also see that not being able to help people sure didn't slow him down from trying to teach the Bible.....

I came to a conclusion roughly equivalent to yours. There's a corollary to Occam's Razor that says of NONE of the current answers FULLY explain what's being explained, then ALL the current answers are WRONG and the answer is something else.

Since I'm seriously sure about that one, I'll put the next one into play. (Oakspear can just smack me if I missed it somehow.) ======== "Take your baby by the hair And pull her closer, there, there, there Take your baby by the ears And play upon her darkest fears"

I've thought about posting this one myself. It's "the Spirit of Radio", by Rush. Was thinking about them just this morning. ==== Ever hear "Bob and Doug McKenzie" team up with Geddy Lee of Rush to do "Take Off (to the Great White North)"?

That includes the guy who pointed out the rules. (Me.)