WordWolf

A) I know what you've posted here so far, and take it as a given-unless there's evidence otherwise- that you've represented your experiences and opinions honestly. (And not, say, as an atheist posting and claiming they're a religious person who wants all atheists shot or something.) So, I know a LITTLE-and that, only what you have chosen to share. B) That wasn't 'satire'. That also wasn't 'righteous'. Whether it is BS is a matter of opinion, I suppose. C) People who don't care what I think of them usually don't hit 'reply' when I post. Perhaps you are an exception. If I can offer some unsolicited advice, I'd recommend a brisk walk around the block and not visiting this thread for at least 12 hours, to get a fresh start. Of course, you're free to completely disregard this- it's unsolicited advice. God bless you either way.

BTW, Brother Speed, vpw DID say Leonard relocated him to a decent hotel. I didnt include it because I wasnt trying to retype every word in the book- I only wanted what was germane to the discussion. I'm not sure if you meant "and vpw stayed in the Red Light District". I am a little curious how someone could be in the 'middle" of a Red Light District and not even notice. I mean, back before Times Square was "cleaned up", if you walked down the average street, you found out you were in a Red Light District of some kind. Guys would whisper stuff to passers-by. In broad daylight. I don't know what it was like at NIGHT back then. (Nor do I wish to.) Perhaps the normal "I'm scandalized" reaction of most ministers wasn't quite so hair-trigger in vpw. 'templelady': ====== And yet, you have an example RIGHT THERE to compare it with- Brother Leonard's response. He was within his rights to send vpw home, or at least out of his classroom. Yet he did not. Why? I'm thinking he decided it was more loving to let him stay even though, "technically", it would be wrong. Knowing how vpw would snap people's heads off, this just makes HIM look worse by comparison...

"The Spiritual 40." When you have a chance, please post any info you have on this mysterious group on the "Wonderland" thread. I asked if anyone had any information on them, and so far, none has been forthcoming.

A) You DID jump to conclusions. If you think I attacked you in my reply, you're unfamiliar with REALLY hostile posts on messageboards. You ARE oversensitive on the subject. That really shouldn't count as news to you-it isn't to me. Just take that into account before going on the warpath. B) You did "accuse" when you said "You are protective of the JWs". C) He didn't get "pretty defensive"- he saw an error and posted a correction. You could have said "thanks" and adjusted your complaint, or just taken it and let the subject drop. He also never defended "having their own version of the Bible". He addressed the translation of ONE word and some places where it is CORRECT. He also suggested there were places it was INcorrect. Reread his post and you may see what I mean. D) I always recommend thinking twice before making posts. I've deleted some posts unwritten that way, myself. If the sole reason is "others may disagree", then you're in for a rude awakening: in cyberspace, disagreeing is typical, and on this board, it's unavoidable.

'A la prochaine' date='Oct 7 2005, 02:48 AM' "I'm BACK..... :P "The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for." There's something ABSOLUTELY fishy about this statement. It's too packaged or something...can't quite put my finger on it? OH RIGHT!!!! The smart-A$$, motor-cycle maniac...was being raised for the Holy Spirit field? How could God limit himself like this??? And to claim such a thing? WOWZA...he surely had NARCISSISTIC balls. Wonky :blink:" ======================== The part that still leaves me in amazement is that some people read that statement of his NOW, knowing what we NOW know, and say "Yes, that's correct."

[ WordWolf in brackets and boldface as of old... ]

He said, STILL not posting this nebulous "evidence".

Here is what we KNOW about the book. A) vpw name-dropped Albert Cliffe in "the Way:Living in Love". B) One chapter in "Let Go and Let God" (which, in itself, was a twi SLOGAN) was called "there is Magic in Believing". The early editions of the Blue Book included a chapter called "the Magic of Believing". C) One chapter in "Let Go and Let God" was called "the Law of Cause and Effect". vpw presented believing as if it REQUIRED the object believed for- thus being as simple as "cause" (believing) and "effect" (the object believed for). D) Albert Cliffe was nominally Christian but taught a lot of extrabiblical stuff- in short, was VERY unconventional. Usually, this was a sign vpw would copy his stuff if he found it. (That Cliffe was a spiritualist is a different subject for a different discussion.) E) The copyrights on Cliffe's books are early 1950s- which means they were available for purchase years before their material appeared in the Blue Book and in Session I. ======= That's what I KNOW on the subject. I can CONCLUDE this is pretty conclusive evidence he DID use Cliffe's book without giving him (or anyone else) credit in the Blue Book.

Branded --- Branded --- 1982 Rock and Roll --- Take It --- 1983 We’ve Got the Power --- Sam Pruyn --- 1983 Acts 29 --- Bob Stanley --- 1983 High Country Caravan Humor --- Randy Anderson --- 1984 Ready for Anything --- Acts 29 --- 1984 Athletes of the Spirit --- The Way Int. Orchestra --- 1985 It’s Hot --- Acts 29 --- 1985 Delighted in God --- Harmony --- 1985 Branded: A Lifetime --- Branded --- 1986 So Much More --- Tim Stiles --- 1987 Sing Along Favorites --- 16th & 18th WC at HQ --- 1988 The Way of Abundance and Power --- Singing Ladies of the Way --- 1996 We Are Committed --- ???? --- ???? High Country --- ???? --- ???? In This Thing Together --- Called Out --- ???? Love Always --- New York Way Prod --- ???? Spark in the Dark --- Billy Falcon --- ???? ???? --- Breakthrough --- ???? God First --- Acts 29 --- ???? ============ AFAIK, ALL the tapes you mentioned were carried in the twi Bookstore. There WERE many musicians that WEREN'T, and you could find much of THEIR work by walking around an ROA and keeping your ears open for recorded music (and your eyes for people circling an area.) "Love Always" was a NY Way Productions album, and saw a lot of play and "covers" in NY. The band "Breakthrough" started out with the song and album "Breakthrough", which listed the credits as "Southern California Way Productions". Their first album was soft rock. "A Thought Away" was harder, as was "On Track"-which came out around 1989 and was NEVER carried in the twi bookstore. "Acts 29" was listed as a "B*b Stan1ey" album. It was soft rock, and included a song by the name "Acts 29". It's sequel, "Ready for Anything" included a song called "Ready for Anything" and was credited as "Bo* S1anley and Acts 29". It wasn't a great song, but VERY catchy and I still like the chorus. "It's Hot" was "Acts 29"'s third album, and was probably their best. The title song was how exciting things were at local meetings and people getting blessed. (It had a GREAT guitar riff, for those who like guitar riffs.) "God First" was their fourth. It had a few songs I really like, and a few songs that were twi commercials. It had fewer songs than "It's Hot" did. I think they released one in the 90s, but if so, I know NOTHING about it. (A lot of people got off their duffs in 1989-1990 and produced teachings and songs and all kinds of stuff when they left and no longer could count on an organization- which is why I count that year as the most "PROSPEROUS" ministry year of the 80s.) Branded was the Country/Western group. The humour tape was a complilation. There was a "show" called "High Country Caravan" that basically was a public-access-level showcase. Occasionally there was something about God, but usually it was just entertainment, but entertainment put out by twi, which means it was the GREATEST entertainment... That tape was a compilation of all the comedy skits from the "Circuit Rider". lcm proved once again that he had to be the center of attention again by appearing on it and saying some lame jokes. That leaves "Spark in the Dark" of the tapes I know. Billy was in NY Way Productions, and this was a tape of his stuff. It was rock, and I really liked this one. Billy later released "Power Windows" commercially, which got commercial airplay and had at least one music video.

Templelady, I beg your temperance! Seek not to increase dissension! For you have egged him on and recommended fowl play. *runs*

Ok, let's see....This episode we'll see BG Leonard, what vpw admits to learning from him, what vpw says about him, and the 3 things that vpw finds quoteworthy from BG Leonard. pg-205. === "But how did you get the class started?" I asked him. "It was happening while you were here in Van Wert." "After that trip to Tulsa lots of things fell into place. God just keeps giving it to you as you can take it. Someone in Tulsa gave me the name of B.G. Leonard, or sent my name to him, I can't remember which. Anyway, after Tulsa I began to get his monthly newsletter from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I never read that thing. It was so badly printed, you could hardly make out a word. I never read it for two years. And then a couple of years after Tulsa, I had been working the Word about laying on of hands. I'd worked every scripture and seen how they worked together perfectly. That particular day, just after I'd worked it through, I'd gotten B.G. Leonard's newssheet. Well, I just crumpled it up and threw it in the wastebasket as usual. I did some other things, and later that day I took the wastebasket out to burn the rubbish. As I shook it out, this thing, which was on the bottom, fell out on top of the heap in the incinerator--opened. There staring me in the face was an article about laying on of hands. I read the first two lines fast, and they are perfectly accurate. So I pulled the whole thing out of the fire before it burned and read it through. The whole article was exactly what I had come up with in my months of research. So I went in and called B.G. Leonard on the telephone. He told me he loved me, but I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of a class. So I took the next plane to Calgary. His place was called the Christian Training Centre." Now here are ALL the direct quotes from Leonard. Please note that, like everyone else, he can ID vpw on sight. "And then he started preaching. Boy, oh, boy, was he with it! He taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left, and I just sat there. He said, 'Hi, ya, there, Wierwille, I thought I told you, you couldn't come.' And I said, "Yeh, but I didn't hear you.' 'Well, where are you staying?' he asked me, and I told him. And he said "Why, you're in the middle of the red light district. That's all whores!' " That was ALL the direct quotes from Leonard. pg-207. "He loved me, and I learned some stuff from him. He had tremendous believing. That's why I love the guy." "The summer of 1953, our whole ministry went up-Dotsie and Donnie and some of the others from Van Wert. We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation. So I did, and in October, I had the very first 'Power for Abundant Living' Class. At that time, the Foundational Class and the Advanced Class were together-then whole thing in two weeks. But the syllabus today is basically the same. The basic principles from the Word are the same. The class has filled out. But I knew the greatness of our age-the age of holy spirit and that every truth must fit in the framework of the manifestations. I just had to teach it to somebody." "I taught without a syllabus, but the class was the same. You could throw the syllabus away now and I could still teach it. It's a burning reality in my soul." ============

And yet, nobody cares if you yell "crowded theater" in the middle of a fire. === Actually, whispering ANYTHING in a theater will go completely unnoticed. Unless it's just the theaters near me....

"when I had my experience I felt the inside of me was as warm from the light as the outside-when it was over I felt like I had been exposed to sunshine on the inside--so I don't discount this as being a vaild feeling of the manifestation, that said--there are many possibilities 1- VPW actually experiencecd the manifestation 2- VPW wanted so badly to experience SIT he thought he experienced the manifestation and had heard from others how it felt 3- VPW experienced the manifestation didn't experience the feeling that others had but said he did 4- He lied about the whole SIT experience 5- He experienced it but somewhere down the road figured out how to use the experience to make his stature in the eyes of men grow. Personally I'm for #5." I see #1 and #5 as the same option. By vpw's own doctrine, #3 would be the same as well. He said God never guaranteed a feeling. He spoke of people's expectations colouring their results. That's when he spoke about people "slain in the spirit" and so on. As to #2 and #4, I think #2 is possible. I find #4-where it differs from #2-to be too improbable for me to accept. I can believe vpw didn't experience it. I can believe vpw WANTED to experience it. So, I can believe #2. I don't think it's credible that even his desire to experience was a total lie. I think that there was SOME basis for a conviction. The man RATIONALIZED his way thru many things, but I don't think he set out with the express, premeditated purpose of lying. I think, no matter what, he WANTED the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he either experienced it, or wanted to so much he made something up. In this case, I think it is most likely he DID experience something. His story rings true, as written. It's also consistent with his positions in pfal about the Holy Spirit field. He took what WORKED for Stiles and repackaged it. If he'd wanted to fake it, there were earlier steps he could have taken and saved time. Therefore, I do not say I know for certain. My OPINION is that #5 is correct as well. He pursued a geniune experience, had one, then later decided to package and sell it.

Actually, if he had picked a good candidate, and claimed it was for blind loyalty, I would have had the SAME problem with it I have now. I consider that an improper criteria. If he had picked a good candidate, and claimed it was by revelation, I probably would have had NO PROBLEM with that. That's a proper method, and proper results suggest it was actually followed. If he had picked a bad candidate (lcm), and claimed it was by revelation, then, yes, I would have had a problem with that. Evidence would have supported the position that the choosing was NOT by revelation. (Else it would have WORKED.) You've claimed many things and the transcripts haven't borne them out.Please link to the post which supposedly claims the BOT got together and voted on this. You weren't around HQ enough to know what the scuttlebutt was. If HCW said that was the scuttlebutt, I'd say that carried weight. So, all of the leaders trained by vpw, and chosen as leaders by vpw, were all no good-in your opinion- by 1982. Also in your opinion, this has NOTHING to do with the man who trained them, chose them out, and who they believed was THE man of God, whom they followed blindly. Others may disagree.

[ Or else? Someone made YOU the arbiter of what stays and what goes? ] [Well, that's all you CAN do. Next, you see if the staff agrees with you. ] ===== [See, the original post was a joke. Perhaps it was in poor taste, perhaps not. Me, I didn't think it was worth even a full smirk, but that doesn't mean anything. You found someone's post offensive. You reported that post and cited the reasons. (I'm guessing you did that and did it correctly.) That's your part. Now the moderation staff decides if any action is warranted. See, just because one or more posters find a post offensive is no reason to suppose it will "have to" be deleted or whatever. If it DID, a LOT of posts in here would be gone. I think the majority of posts here can be considered "offensive" by SOMEBODY here. Me, I had a problem with a movie post once. I didn't report it because I judged it wasn't worth dwelling on it. If they elect to leave it up, you can ignore that and do something else, you can storm off in a huff, or you can throw a temper-tantrum that some people will find offensive. This is not your board- therefore these are not your rules.]

Mike, you seem stressed. You might want to try a stress reduction exercise. Not the one from the first post- that one you have a problem with. Maybe a slow walk around the block, or feeding the pigeons, or studying cloud formations. I once found tracing a pattern to be relaxing.

"WW, If you have the orange book you have the evidence." He said, still not posting this nebulous evidence. Me, when I say the Orange Book says something, I cite the page AND provide the quote. Otherwise, people would be justified in thinking I was making it up. And bald claim must be supported with evidence.

Actually, he's been claiming the existence of this mysterious "evidence" since 2003. He has time to spend page after page claiming it exists, but he still hasn't had time to post it. Myself, I recommended scaling back posting time and just posting when he can provide this mysterious "evidence"- going for QUALITY rather than QUANTITY- but so far Mike hasn't followed my advice, at least to the degree of posting this "evidence." So, we have about as much proof of this "evidence" so far as we do of the Loch Ness Monster. Furthermore, Mike keeps claiming that assigning homework is an effective tool around here. I keep telling him why it backfires so badly, but he keeps insisting it works. I don't expect him to change his position on this anytime in 2005 (or 2006). Mike's characterized something as "spoon-feeding". Everyone else would call it "presenting your case" or "defending your thesis" or "presenting your evidence". But to Mike, backing up his claims is some sort of distasteful task. Perhaps this is because it's something like the Emperor's tailors presenting their new Fall Fashion Line. Perhaps not-but we can't tell because he never presents it.

Previous discussions on this included one poster who went up and ASKED vpw why he chose lcm. vpw's response was that lcm was loyal, never argued with him, always followed orders. I felt this A) cut thru all the guesswork as to "did this come from God?" B) showed how shallow the selection process was. I mean, out of all the criteria he could have mentioned, that was the one least noble, imho.

Obvious in 20/20 hindsight, isn't it? Now, I bought this book and put it on a shelf. So, I have an excuse. This was the first time I've ever READ IT. Those of you who read it once and didn't run screaming THEN are having a VERY surreal experience NOW.

Technically "Naked Gun 2 1/2: the Smell of Fear", but yes, that's it. You got it just before I posted the long quote about the boxers. Your turn, Raf.

"Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet." "You see, learning is a process. You don't learn overnight. The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for. There's not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there's no one I can't lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it. No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them." Well, aren't WE special? pg-204. "When I came back from Tulsa, Mal George and his wife, Jan, were the first ones I led into receiving the holy spirit. They live in New Knoxville now, both of them teachers, have seven kids. They stood with the ministry over twenty years now, never wavered."

Well, that was my point. YOU think God is so very much bigger, NOW. So do I. Not only were many, many, MANY people convinced otherwise back when, now, after all vpw's crimes (or at least many of them) have been exposed, some people STILL make that kind of vapid claim. Frankly, it's the ridiculous presence of that kind of claim NOW that made me notice the connection. I still say vpw's big skill was in MARKETING. He relabelled a Christian experience and made it out to be a twi experience, AND charged money for it. As to why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles, that's an easy one. Neither Stiles nor Leonard ever required allegiance to themselves or any organization. They were interested in blessing the greatest # of Christians possible in the time available. The "class allegiance" thing was something vpw insistituted to guarantee himself 'repeat customers'-selling them materials and classes, and later, giving 10% of their income.

Now, now, play nice on this thread.....