WordWolf

I would not interfere with him nor seek to harm him- with the proviso that stepping aside would not expose innocents to unacceptable risk. That having been said, there are already plenty of people to help on my plate- people who never had any of the things he had previously. So, if it came to it, he could end up on my list- but it's a very long list, and he'd start at the bottom like anybody else new.

Wasn't Pat Roberge sued by them? Hm, they let the rights to "thewayinternationalsucks.com" expire. There was a time they had a redirect in it, so that if you typed in that URL, you got their main site. :) ========= Here's something else re: him. http://www.waychrist.com/1st_twi_letter.htm ======= And I think twi was rattling their sabers over any member of the Wierwille family making any corrections about Mrs W being pushed out of her home by twi.

Seems a lost cause to argue it when there are so many eyewitnesses, but it seems to make him happy. As for the "spiritual anger" thing, lcm (and vpw, for that matter) would slap the name (or concept) "spiritual" on things to make them acceptable, or to change the meaning of the thing. "Spiritual suspicion", "spiritual anger", adultery was "spiritual adultery" and not the actual act, etc. That was already starting at the end of the 80s, actually. I made a joke about it at the time which is not appropriate for public consumption, which was gotten immediately due to the tendency to slap "spiritual" on ANYTHING. My guess-and it is ONLY a guess- is that they were confident the thought police had succeeded. You know, they had publicly ousted all the "homos" and "homo sympathizers" in their hunt, so obviously there were none left. Sorta like the airlines who managed to catch the only 2 pilots who were drinking when flying, you know? As for anyone having "genuine spiritual suspicion" about them, you make have forgotten what they did to YOU when YOU asked questions-as they did with MANY others. They ducked answering-"why do you want to know?" attacked the questioner-"your curiousity is a sign of spiritual immaturity" and so on. They were high enough on the totem pole to deflect any direct questioning. Besides, there was the CONDITIONING. twi innies were conditioned to NEVER QUESTION LEADERSHIP at the risk of being kicked out, losing their salt, being given over to the devil, and becoming a greasespot by midnight. So, I imagine they felt pretty safe.

Before anyone tries to claim-again- that vpw didn't teach this, or that lcm didn't teach this- I'd like to point out that twi is STILL teaching this. vpw taught that the US fought on the wrong side in WW II. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...25entry137925 Down the same page. "I heard that stuff with my own ears. Veepee down playing the holocost, embracing nazi ideologies, and yes, stating that we were on the wrong side in WW II." Different thread. "VPW did though, disseminate information and publications among the Way Corps that the holocaust was either staged or not as severe as it is claimed to be." http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb.index.ph...49entry176749 When the New Knoxville high school officials had these plans in the works..to visit Washington DC and see this [Holocaust] museum..lcm and co. went toe-to-toe on this issue. From what he told us on corps meeting (mid-90s -- ??)..the NK school officials 'revised' the junior/senior trip. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index/ph...08entry115308 Here's an extra-special post that deserves special attention. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ndpost&p=204549 "This particular time she was upset about how 'the Way kids' (that's what everybody calls them) has treated a lady who was well into her 80s. They were on some sort of school field trip." "This time 'the Way Kids' had derided this little old lady to the point where the lady CRIED. Yes, cried, real tears, as in weeping. The lady was a Holocaust Survivor. She was speaking to a group of exceptional high school kids, which included a group from NK (which is an EXCELLENT school), the group had some TWI kids in it. They blasted this lady, who was there, who had photos and had experienced it, they BLASTED her w/ TWI's anti-Holocaust rhetoric, until she cried. They only let up when my daughter, who had been urging them to let up the whole time, stood up, pulled rank on them as Class President, had to YELL at them and ORDER them to 'JUST STOP IT! LEAVE HER ALONE! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, STOP IT!!!" Just doing my part to prevent people from re-writing history... or current events, for that matter.

[i'm sure most readers here have greater comprehension than you're demonstrating here. You COULD have dropped the "lcm NEVER stated he hated homosexuals" thing before bringing it up, since it was pretty much common knowledge that he went off on hateful tirades and advocated violenced for them. However, you went there anyway, so I posted with evidence we ALL have access to. At that point, you COULD have dropped it again, since it's more than obvious your original point's completely discredited. However, since you insist on persisting, I'll go the extra mile. ] [YOU were the one who claimed lcm NEVER said he hated homosexuals.THAT was the singular "fact" YOU fixated on. I provided evidence it was error. You're still fixated on your position, however. Sad, but typical. AND accusing me of the problem you yourself are clearly demonstrating. You know, lcm claimed that the Pharisees accused Jesus of the things they themselves were guilty of-I imagine you remember that? In fact, he said that people "born of the seed of the serpent" commonly accused the sons of God of things they themselves did. Nicely ironic, that..] [Let's review. To get in the DOOR at the corps, one needed to complete the Foundational, Intermediate and Advanced classes, and endure the scrutiny that was already part and parcel of twi at the time. (This was written July 1994, and lcm had been turning twi into a police state-complete with "thought police", and kicking out all dissenters-for about 4-5 years at the time.) THEN the candidate needed a RECOMMENDATION to be CONSIDERED for the corps. THEN they were considered for admission. This includes the "Birth to the Corps" autobiography they were REQUIRED to submit. That means that the corps-before walking in the door to begin their FIRST DAY as corps-were screened at SEVERAL LEVELS. IF there were a number of people somehow escaping their screening process to detect anything that were actually of that thing, who actually made it in, this means one of two things. A) the screening process was circumvented by a network of operatives whose sole goal was to subvert the process and get them in. For example, if lcm was screening out left-handed people, then-if left-handed people made it past ALL the screening levels, that meant the Left-Handed League was secretly subverting dozens of people and secretly inserting Left-Handers into the organization. Are you stupid enough to think that there was an organized network of homosexuals spending large blocks of time infiltrating twi and inserting their members into the corps? If you're claiming these homosexuals lcm raved about EXISTED, then that's what you're claiming. or B) lcm POSSIBLY found ONE homosexual, or NONE at all. lcm trumped up an entire witchhunt with the purposes of kicking out people he wanted to kick out, and uniting the members against a common enemy. Since there WAS no common enemy, he was content to INVENT one. (The witch-hunts of history, and the communist hunts of the Mc Carthy era were famous examples of just this sort of thing. You can look them up if you've never heard of them.) So, I trust, anyone with a functioning BRAIN can see that lcm was raving about a threat that didn't exist. He raved about them FREELY whenever he had a microphone. Listening to the tapes? You'll hear them mentioned. Listening to the phone-hookup? Same deal. Eating lunch in the cafeteria? All the time-spoiled your appetite. Sitting for ANY length of time with lcm at the podium? GUARANTEED. He was OBSESSED with them. The idea of you saying "lcm NEVER said" something when in fact you lack access to the vast majority of what he DID say was the first flag you had no idea what you were talking about. Whatever the rest of the sentence was, it would have been easy enough to DISPROVE-with ONE example. He was NOT addressing "messed-up corps." He was addressing the most loyal people he HAD at the time- who were screened multiple times for loyalty. And to THEM he said this, saying they were LOADED with "infiltrators."] [Not that moment, no, but he did so OFTEN, it was a favourite topicof his. And he said many, many things to them, many, many times. Most of them-guess what? you weren't there to hear! However, you've already decided what he said. Amazing the level of closed-mindedness that takes. When addressing the people LEAST LIKELY to object to what he said, he SCREAMED and SPEWED vile insults about homosexuals and obsessed over them. "Never said he hated homosexuals?" He SCREAMED it in person, and spewed it on paper. Your inability to see it-which, admittedly, is rather baffling-notwitstanding.] [The "very extreme situation" never EXISTED! lcm also raved about the Pope's AIRCRAFT CARRIER! And how he was going to declare martial law and force conversion on threat of violence! lcm raved OFTEN about "very extreme situations" that never existed. Did you miss how Y2K was going to lead to the fall of Western civilization? We would have rioting in the streets and a collapse of all banks. Didn't happen, of course. It was another "very extreme situation" lcm raved about. They kept people busy so they didn't think about what bs lcm was in the first place. To hear him say it in the ENTIRE letter (never bothered to READ it, did you?) he suggests the ROAs were cancelled due to homosexuals, as was the wow program. In fact, anything good in twi was ruined solely due to the efforts of homosexuals. (Except the pfal class-and if he could have come up with a pretext for saying that one, he would have.)] [No, this was an AVERAGE update to the corps from lcm the crazy-person, who saw conspiracies EVERYWHERE. The only new thing was the names of a few people he singled out here. Given his track record, I have no way of knowing if they were COMPLETELY INNOCENT of anything he claimed. He did, however, invoke his phrase "GENUINE SPIRITUAL SUSPICION." "SUSPICION" is neither genuine nor spiritual. And the "tirade" was TYPICAL.] [You have A tape. I presented A letter. Neither changes the content of the other. You claimed the letter never claimed lcm hated homosexuals- you said "FOR THE RECORD, LCM NEVER SAID HE HATED HOMOSEXUALS." That means that this letter doesn't exist, because he "NEVER" said it. Your tape changed NOTHING about the letter. lcm-in the letter-spewed hatred of homosexuals at length.] [so when he was planning on speaking to a LARGER audience, including peoplewho were less likely to blindly follow him off the cliff- LCM MODERATED HIS MESSAGE. What is so difficult to see about that? He told different things to different people. And-there WERE more public venues where he raved about them that you DON'T have copies of. I don't have them because-guess what? I left when I saw a maniac was in charge. Others here have mentioned them-of course, you've missed THAT. And if they presented THOSE, you'd be as incapable of comprehending that as you were the letter you DO have access to. You do not WISH to believe the evidence- therefore it does not EXIST.] [so you have an excuse that works for you as to why someone can have a letter-which can be written anytime and REwritten when one is CALMER- and have its contents completely DISCOUNTED when they are distasteful to you, I'm sure, is quite relaxing to you. Your pretext need not affect nor concern the REST of us, however. Thank you for playing, WTH. Thank you for making your level of understanding evident. Thank you for defending the indefensible with all sincerity. Your parting gifts are still waiting for you in the lobby.]

Dear Freud and Jung: (BTW, Jung, I found your work on universal archetypes in the collective unconscious to be quite interesting. ;) ) I posted my links on the previous thread. If you want, I can repost them. The overcautiousness of some posters can be seen as the natural outcome of 2 things: A) the "mushroom technique" of twi (keep them in the dark and keep shoveling the manure) meant that innies were told that they were being told "everything" while a lot of information was being kept from them, and what WAS told was wildly rewritten B) the WAYGB. That's the nickname here for the people currently on twi staff whose job it is to read every post here and try to determine who still IN twi is posting here so they can kick them out. Several posters here were kicked out as a direct result of their "ministration"- Oakspear and Belle are two. So, there's an understandable caution when ANYBODY new arrives.

[i don't have a copy of his transcripts from the college. We know he supposedly earned his Bachelor's Degree in Psychology at an accredited institution. We do not know if the athletes got a "free ride" on this as sometimes happens at some schools. We DO know, however, that someone who completes the B.A. in Psychology is supposed to have a basic understanding of terms and concepts in Psychology. (Otherwise, what did you do in 24 credit-hours including the labs?) lcm has gone on record having seen corps personnel "lose it" in his presence. His descriptions of what happened fall far short of what you'd expect if he completed a MINOR in Psychology, let alone a MAJOR. "Gone off her rocker." "All of a sudden went 'gooney-bird.' He started to babble and not make sense." Supposedly lcm worked DIRECTLY with that guy during the episode, and he was unable to come up with a clearer description beyond that, and that he was "incoherent." Neither description tells us anything USEFUL about either incident. lcm-knowing how potentially serious such problems are- insisted on NOTHING in either case, and NEITHER person received any medical care nor medical evaluation. Mind you-at the time, lcm was IN CHARGE of the corps, and supposedly learned SOMETHING about Psychology. That he was unable to give any description beyond a crude one, and unable to recognize a need for immediate medical attention (mind you-he never put any time into finding the CAUSE of either) argues against lcm actually retaining any useful information in the field of Psychology. Since this was his major, lcm received LESS education in any other fields. Therefore, lcm's only REAL education was riding the bench in college football. As we can clearly see. And now for the personal attack...] [And I did exactly that here.I didn't bother dragging up the specifics before because A) they're common knowledge here B) I referred him to a thread which broke this down in detail] [but-as we saw-whatever lcm sat thru in class was not RETAINED by him. And college classes are not a "career".] [What's evident to most of us is that WTH tried once again to do some posturing and pretend he knew what he was talking about. Thank you for playing, WTH. Your parting gifts are waiting for you in the lobby.]

I never heard him say that PARTICULAR one, but it fits in with what I know he DID say, so I won't doubt it. He did mention that he'd "gladly" murder them. Those of you keeping score, this is me and Allan agreeing on something.

For the record, your excuse for lcm is nothing like what he said. We have a SAMPLING here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/html...omo-excerpt.htm I was going to post a lengthy sample, but I object to his language. What I CAN post: "Remember, the Word says that homos are 'the lowest of the people', and that is certainly true..." (after multiple obscenities) "That's the way I feel about you and your thoughts and your repugnancy." "You are detestable and despicable and repugnant and worthy of death. You are so far beyond saltiness that you are the ultimate illustration of being worthless and not even fit for the dunghill." "...there are some of us who would gladly execute you." Contrast "never said he hated homosexuals" with "..fag-foot, lily-livered, rump-ranger, butt-pirate, turd-burglar, pillow-biter slime balls..." Yes, that was all in the same SENTENCE. Click the link above. What you posted bore NO RESEMBLANCE to his screaming tirades. (There's WORSE than I posted in the link.)

Considering his track record of calling posters liars outright, few posters who CARE about the victims would come forth and give Oldies names and specifics. In the first place, he won't believe them regardless. In the second place, he'll rub salt in the wounds and ridicule them, and call THEM liars, too.

There's 6 usages of the word in the KJV in the book of Matthew alone. One obvious one: Matthew 4:11 "Then the devil leaveth him, and behold, angels came and ministered unto him."

Proving that vpw can be permitted ANYTHING if you put him on a high enough pedestal, ck mkeon offered this opinion:

Hello. I can try to summarize a few things, if you want. That you read here. Here's the background... vpw-victor paul wierwille-was the first president of the way international. He carefully constructed an aura of specialness around himself, partly thru concealing his sources and convincing people he was getting it all from God. lcm-l craig martindale-was the second president of the way international. vpw recruited him pretty much out of college. He put the super-loyal (impressed by the aura of specialness) craig in charge of the way corps (vpw's eliteness program which became his instrument of control over the organization.) When it came time to choose a successor, vpw listened to everyone recommend everyone BUT lcm-then chose lcm. lcm, you see, was the most blindly loyal, follow-vpw-off-a-cliff man he could find, and figured the way corps would follow him. lcm's only real education came as an athlete in college, and the rest of his life was spent in twi. When he got the big chair, he put his athletic emphasis on it. When he saw "Staying Alive", and the dance sequence "Satan's Alley", he insisted on ripping it off and doing a 2-hour production on it. He hinted around until someone suggested he play the lead, and had the nerve to look surprised when it was suggested. That production was called "Athletes of the Spirit". That's what that little kid was talking about. He saw craig onstage, dancing around, bopping devils on the head or whatever, and got the message craig wanted the adults to get but they didn't. The actual quote from the kid was that they didn't need to pray, since craig would protect them. I don't remember that quote from here. It certainly was the essence of what he wanted the ADULTS to think, however. You can find a lot more about craig here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...topic=9019&st=0 It's a thread called "vp and me in wonderland", and studies a book by lcm, called "vp and me." You'll get to see how the humanity and compassion was trained out of him, so that he became the monster that so many people credit with ruining lives all thru the 1990s.

No, it's wasway's turn. wasway did name the title-"Genius of Love" and the band-"the TomTom Club". This isn't exactly Jeopardy or anything. Bluez knew the history, but that's not the question. :) Go, wasway!

"San Francisco, Pittsburgh P.A., and Fire Island, New York." I remembered that specifically. It the time, I'd visited Philadelphia with my family and toured the museums (not recently), but I've never been to Pittsburgh. I forget whether this was on "Victorious Unity in One God" (his 2-tape rant on homosexuality in the early 80s) or "the Mark of Quality" (his mid-80s rant that was all over the place. I suspect it was the former. (If only because, statistically, the odds are in my favour.) I've heard jokes about Fire Island SINCE THEN, but my first time hearing about it was from him, and I still haven't heard any references to "Pittsburgh" like that to date-not counting him.

So, you think he was overcompensating for his own insecurities when he was raging EXTERNALLY against "homos" and "homo sympathizers" rather than an INTERNAL struggle against his own urges? You don't just think he felt emasculated by the activities of his wife and Rozilla? We know he saw lesbian sex as the original sin, after all.... Interesting how once he made a comment about how disco sprang up originally in the 3 main homosexual centers in the US, and he rattled off the locations- San Francisco Pittsburgh Fire Island. Fire Island was news to me at the time. I STILL haven't heard about Pittsburgh except for his comment. Why WOULD a straight man just happen to know all the major gay communities in the US? I'm sure there's a PERFECTLY innocent answer...

Of course. I just wanted to point out the situation was worse than you made it sound. ;) I was agreeing, but adding more info-not actually DISagreeing, despite the way I phrased it.

"James Brown, James Brown. James Brown, James Brown." "Who needs to think when your feet just go?"

Correct! I figured I wasn't the only one who thought that the "buttling" comment was worth remembering! Go, George.

Ex10, frankly, I thought of you more in the majority category, and Jonny also. AFAIK, neither of you ever tried to whitewash things.

Ghostbusters 2 Peter MacNicol Addams Family Values

I directly challenge these assertions. I shall explain how I see it, and why. I see one majority rough category, and 2 minority rough categories. Category 1 (Majority)- "There was some good in twi. However, the evil actions and doctrines of pfal significantly taint it. Doctrine is suspect, since some of it was phrased or formulated as a result of corrupt thinking or to facilitate sin. Some people in twi, ignorant of the corruption from the top, endeavoured to be loving Christians, so some others had fantastic experiences as a result of THEIR INVOLVEMENT." Category 2 (Minority)- "vpw was well-intentioned from the beginning to the end. I had good experiences in twi, vpw founded twi, therefore, I credit vpw for my good experiences. I wish the others here wouldnt keep suggesting vpw sinned a lot." Category 3 (Minority)- "vpw was a fraud from the beginning. twi was a fraud from the beginning. Christianity is an opinion, and can be nice and all-but in hands like vpw, it becomes a corrupt system which should have been torn down." The original poster claimed that a number of posters here dismiss any good from twi. According to the anonymous poll, 12.5% of respondents have done so- claiming he was a fraud from the beginning, therefore pfal and the rest was window dressing for a scam. According to the anonymous poll, 80% of respondents have claimed that vpw's sin had a significant effect on his doctrine, policies, and practices. (This further divides into 25% saying this was significant but not overwhelming, and 55% claiming it was across-the-board and categorical.) If this is a representative response, 4 out of every 5 posters is saying this. A third category of responses can be shown from the remaining 7.5% of respondents. They claim that sin had no effect on doctrine, policies and practices, either because vpw sinned a little and it didn't touch them (5%) or because they're a sold-out vpw worshipper (2.5%). The 80% are not people who have claimed that bad experience completely negates any positive experience they or others may have had. That's either the 12.5% category mentioned above, or a category almost identical to the description someone gave- of "no good can be associated with twi" as a result of the bad. That's the position "vp sinned and therefore he did no good." Some people have CLAIMED that a number of posters have been holding that position. However, that position has been selected by 0.0% of respondents. That's right- even anonymously, nobody claimed that's anything like their position. So, I consider this position a convenient FICTION that allows vpw apologists and defenders to label and belittle those who have come to different conclusions based on the evidence at hand. =========== On a slightly different subject, is DOES often get heated here. Why? My opinion-take it for what you will- is that it is a combination of the specific setting, and the vpw apologists. As for the setting, people arrive here-often internet "virgins" who've never seen another board- with crippled interpersonal skills and reasoning skills after exposure to twi. They learn many ugly things. They're hurt from their own wounds which are healing-so they react. They're offended by what they've read-so they react. Both of these can look ugly-but they're part of the healing process. That produces heated posts. As for the other, take the people I just described, emotionally hurt, recovering, getting professional help elsewhere and using this as an encounter group and a sounding board. Then add people who claim that the complaints are exagerrated. NOW we're going to see some heated discussion. In short, the regular cycle of vpw apologetics and defenders- who sometimes call others LIARS and attack anyone who insults their memory of vpw- THIS is to blame for the worst threads. We can't put an end to the therapy encounters, because they're part of why the GSC EXISTS. People come here to learn, heal and hang out. We CAN consider ending the continuous adulation of vpw without defeating the purpose of the GSC. It wont happen anyway because the powers-that-be insist on allowing all viewpoints to be posted here, and because the apologists (a tiny handful of regular posters) won't stop even out of courtesy. That's my opinion, and why I hold it. You are free to disagree.

Update. ckmkeon gave this reply: "Well I will get some more scripture for you but I have one for you. Gal 1:11,12 "This is Paul Speaking" 11. But I certify you, brethren, that the Gospel which was preached of me is not of man 12. For I neither recieved it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ. Though some of you might not think it is much, but I think the gospel of the word being by revelation is a advancement. Now I will continue getting more scripture for you to prove my point. CK" As reported previously, the subject under discussion: Quick brushup: ckmkeon: "peolpe can not go any further than what they have been taught." T-Bone: "What if a STUDENT winds up being smarter than the TEACHER or discovers errors in the teacher's doctrine? How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented- if people can't go beyond what they're taught?" ckmkeon's response: "So what" Well, T-Bone's been intellectually thrashed on the debating floor, has he not? The whole of civilization and its advancements? "So what?" They don't matter. ck continued to "address" this issue of students surpassing teachers. "So what, and what happens if the teacher is smarter than the student and the student thinks he/she is smarter...there are more instances where the student THINKS they are smarter and they are really not. Then they close off all teaching from there teacher." This is called "dodging" and "changing the subject." Since ckmkeon didn't have an intelligent response surpassing "so what?", he pretended there WAS no unaddressed issue of students surpassing their teachers as a cornerstone of society and changed the subject, intending to turn it into a "subtle dig" on the posters here. They surpassed the man who claimed to be THE Teacher. How dare they think for themselves and challenge the suppositions of a man who was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn, who made the earth shake when he walked? However, he did make an attempt to make a partial answer. To "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented?" ck replied "By revelation by either God or the Devil." So, we owe computers, the internet, electricity, toilet paper, etc, to either God, the Devil, or both- NEVER to the ingenuity of an inventor thinking differently from everyone and making something that lasted as a result-NOT ONCE. T-Bone has asked him to support this claim. Will ck support his bald assertion? My prediction is we'll see more of the above, or a variation of what we've seen before- 1) changes of subject 2) ducking the question entirely 3) belittling the question 4) insulting the questioner and that's about it. ===== As predicted, we saw 1) changes of subject. The question on the table: If-as ckmkeon asserts- people are incapable of going beyond what they are taught-which he believes solely because vpw taught it- how have we ever arrived at ANY invention in ANY time? Or, to be specific, "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented?" ck replied "By revelation either God or the Devil" When asked to support his claim, therefore, that all discoveries in science, and all inventions and innovations in technology are the direct result of either GOD or the DEVIL, ckmkeon posted Galatians 1:11-12, which is one place Paul says he preached by revelation of Jesus Christ. ckmkeon's explanation of the relevance of this verse? "I think the gospel of the word being by revelation is a advancement. Now I will continue getting more scripture for you to prove my point." Thus the subject change I predicted. ck seems unable to see a fundamental difference between receiving a book of the Bible by revelation and transforming the hundreds of steps it took to invent the electric lightbulb into a process where God or the Devil just drops the completed schematic in your lap. I think the one thing we've proven is that CK can't go beyond what he's been taught, but the rest of us need not hobble our intellects so completely.