WordWolf

"She's as skinny as a stick of macaroni"

"Drivin' in to Darlington County, My eyes seen the comin' of the glory of the Lord. Drivin' in to Darlington City Seen Wayne handcuffed to the bumper of a State Trooper's Ford." "Darlington County" is off Bruce Springsteen's famous "Born to Run" album. Oddly, you picked one of the lines I remember most easily from the song. (That and the preceding and following lines.)

June 6th 1984- 40 years since D-Day, Normandy Beach ================= "Verville, France is in Omaha Beach in Normandy, France." "Devil spirits worked on both sides during the war. Churchill and Roosevelt sold out to Stalin." " 'Tesla' from Yugoslavia. Original inventor of radios (not Marconi), also did most of the original work on computers and robots, and the inventor of AC current. He had incredible idiosyncracies and extreme behaviour. " "Dr complimented LCM-'What you are doing with the spirit realm is documenting it right out of the Word!' " "Dr made a statement that he didn't believe that there was a man alive in the Way Ministry that was capable of handling the Book of Revelation. 'Prophecy doesn't come clear until the time of its unveiling.' " "Dr told LCM that he believed that LCM had the finest knowledge of the spirit realm of anyone on the face of the Earth." "Dr also said of LCM that one of the points that always stuck out in his mind regarding LCM was that LCM never forgot who taught him the Word." "Dr said of Donna, 'You married yourself a hell of a woman! Her heart perception with people is second to none.'" "We have perhaps more knowledge of the spirit field than even the Apostle Paul had. We have the full benefits of the Epistles, etc." Corps fellowship- 3000 present. Class taught by LCM. ========== "Dr used to say that the worst thing you can do to him after he teaches is come up to him and ask a Bible question." "You don't have great perception if you're caustic and critical and always looking for errors. You have got to act with love." Location-Campfire (Way Woods) ============ "Incident of Way Corps going home after Corps Week but prior to the ROA. Dr heard about it and reproved everyone in the corps household for the problem, for not helping to put it on. He reminded everyone of the commitments that they had made regarding a lifetime of Christian service. Every corps person needs to plan ahead one year or more so that they can be a part of these events. They need to be able to be a part of ROA and corps fellowship." Dr planned Live class at Gunnison. =============== "Dr had many ideas for Gunnison. A Gondola to the top of the mountain, a riverside restaurant, private homes, a recreation area. Utilize what you have!" "LCM- 'If my life can have a fraction of the meaning to someone else, as his was to mine, it will have been worth it." ================ (the end) ======== I think that's the one thing lcm can rely on. His life's been a fraction of what vpw's life was to people.

No idea at all. I'm just quoting highlights off of "VP and Me" (well, the digest of it with quotes) as seen in the link at the top of this thread. Maybe you can make a new thread, and ask for one of those who was active then to spill about the judge.

Accomodations for corps were equivalent to TINY dorms. You PAID to be in the corps. You performed manual labour in the corps. Food was, apparently, nutritious, but the menu was sparse. Nutritious, but uninspiring food. Nothing you would CHOOSE to eat if you had options. Very few books were actually issued to the corps. So, room and board were bottom-of-the-line, and economies of scale made them cheaper. I believe that if ALL they got was the $300, they DID turn a profit. Plus, there were "spiritual partners" and other sources of income. The corps didn't need to turn a profit. Of course, when it was organized to have LOTS of members, it was organized to do exactly that, and sacrificed QUALITY for QUANTITY. Real training, or minimal training and a profit? I would have trained FEW but with the top training that could be done. They preferred to up the numbers as much as possible, and ANY teacher could tell you that the larger the class size, the less attention each student gets-so MORE students means LESSER teaching.

After the last big meeting that they scoured the area for in an attempt to look like they had more members, my personal guesstimate is that twi has currently approximately 2000 adults, but the ranks have been whittled down to the most extreme kool-aid drinkers, the people that make even the GSC blue-pills ("things were perfect once and could be again!") wince and say "you're out of touch!" === There's really no point for twi to even TRY to reach out. They have no SUBSTANCE to offer people. Little old "christen-dumb" has outpaced them and offers things that outpaced twi at its APEX. twi will never offer enough to equal the other Christians now, let alone distinguish themselves. The only unique things they have to offer is micro-management, a mandatory tithe, and a straitjacket for your personality. Who would join for that?

1981-1982. ========= "Emotions have never ruled Dr's logic. His emotions have supported it." "Incident of a press conference. Reporters show up improperly dressed for the event. Dr reproves them for being so casual and disrespectful to him. As a head of a large corporation, he should be treated more respectfully." 1981-1982. (again) === "Dr and Mrs W moved into the chalet for two weeks to work out the bugs and tenderize the place. LCM was at the Indiana Campus when he heard that he would be living there. Dr decided that LCM and Donna should not have to have another couple live with them. They needed their privacy, a place to relax." "Dr was able to argue with people without holding grudges." "Dr always taught at the point of violation. The [athletic] conference got side-tracked into the more practical stuff like how to throw a ball. Dr reproved LCM and told him to get it back to the Word. You can learn that stuff anywhere. Here we teach the Word!" "Honesty, heart, frankness, truth were all attributes of Dr Wierwilles." "A leader has to be able to carry the heart of the ministry. A leader gives people his life." "LCM never forgot who taught him the Word. It's that humbleness that helps keep a man's equilibrium." "It's wonderful what happens to people when you threaten to take their money away." "We teach the Word for free because we love to." Always be a student if you are going to be a real leader." "Teaching has to be positive. Define the problem if needed, BUT get to the solution." 1982. ==== "Dr said that he had extended himself in Living Victoriously more than he had ever done. 'A man could work 5-6 hours of solid teaching out of every hour of them.' " Dedication of the Gunnison Triplex. ================== "Dr had a special respect for his family and for his background. The Wierwille family must stand if the Word is to live." Location-OSC/Stage area. ========= "There's more to making a decision than the positive side. You have to think all the way through. Is anyone going to be affected deleteriously by this?" "Basic standard time was set up for SNS teachings. LCM had taught for 2 hours straight one night and Dr went backstage to reprove him-too long for people to sit through. Too long for a SNS tape. New standard was everyone had 45 minutes, LCM had one hour." "Believe that the adversary can't snoop into top level meetings. Otherwise how could any meeting take place, any planning?" "Uncle Harry Day was changed to 'Burn the Chaff' day. Dr was concerned that, over the years, as more of the ministry's leadership, founders, trustees and so on died, the tendency would be to recognize them with a special day like Uncle Harry Day. Within a generation, you would end up with nothing more than a mirror image of the RC days for saints, etc. No heart, just bondage and religious observation of the day." "Incident of the Federal judge that took the class. Dr recommended that he be put on mainstage at the ROA to speak to the audience. Dr didn't think that he deserved to be put in stage as he had little or no humility. But Dr felt that it would be a major feather in the cap to have a man of such stature in our ministry. Dr was always thinking of the furtherance of the ministry and consequently the Word." "Dr was very vulnerable regarding his eye and the fact that he might have to be operated on. He never thought that he'd ever have surgery in his whole life." "' I've never had a headache in my whole life, never taken an aspirin in my life and now all this happens to me.' " "What went through Dr's mind was the standard in the Old Testament that a priest who was maimed or deformed could no longer offer sacrifice to God." Sound Out '84. ========= "Tony Collins-New England Patriots- WOW pin. LCM was unsure as to whether he should go to New Englandnin advance of the ROA to give him a WOW pin. All the local leadership were against it. They thought that it was being a "RESPECTER OF PERSONS". After talking it over with Dr, he decided to do it as it would further the ministry." "Don't be ashamed to take advantage of the knowledge of an expert." "Think it through the best that you can, have all the facts and variables ready, if you're going to deal with a leader. If asked, always tell a leader what you think. Don't fabricate an answer to look good or to keep him happy. If you don't know, Say So! If you DO know, Say So!" "Wherever you have a series of leaders that pass the buck up the Way Tree, the Word won't move!" "So much in leadership is being logical. Just get honest and think!" "Dr spent time in Europe and was the most blessed he'd ever been in Europe, Barb and Chris Geer." "Dr Bullinger's niece was met." "Everyone had forgotten Bullinger by now. Will people forget Dr Wierwille?" Next-June 6, 1984, 40 years since D-Day/Normandy. ==================

Correct, Pirate. Which, of course, raises the question "Why did I hear this song played?" Must have been a fluke at the radio station. Go, Pirate!

Wild guess: "Men in Black"?

This one IS tougher, and less recent than the last. But I, personally, HAVE heard it on the radio, which means I feel it's not an impossible shot.

Rascal: "Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything." oldiesman: "If he thought that, he was wrong." We had 15 pages on the old thread, and we're up to 9 pages so far on this thread, and Oldiesman has yet to even acknowledge that those who knew better than him (or that there were people who DID know better) were RIGHT in leaving. So, rascal, the evidence supports your comment that even if Oldiesman had been presented with DNA evidence, he's keeping to his current position. And as you said before, it's understandable if people back then didn't know enough to understand that leaving was the only sensible option. It's foolishness for them to STILL say it was the only sensible option. And finally, I say, anyone who was at ROA '89 and STILL stayed after 5 days of the Dog and Pony Show was either blind or a fool. A LOT of people left IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING ROA '89.

You're reading retention needs work. I listened to lcm HIMSELF. I listened to Mrs lcm HERSELF. I had conversations with many, many people, representatives of twi at various levels across the week. I had an extensive dialogue with one of the current BOD members- which has been mentioned several times. I was told an outrageous lie to my face, and when I asked if they minded if I looked into their claim, the liar threatened me with physical violence, and ATTEMPTED to intimidate me with his height and so on. He had been working and living at hq the past year, and before that, he didn't go around threatening violence. Curious how he changed over the year. I had eavesdroppers jump into conversations they were not party to (which I had said, a few minutes sooner, that they were likely to attempt-which proved my point and was thus worse than if they'd remained silent.) I spoke with staffers. I spoke to reps from different locales. I listened to Joe Believers of various kinds. (I listened, knowing their word was not "official".) ==== "I went to ROA 1989, and saw what was happening." Ok, Oldiesman, I've GOT to hear this. You spent about 5 days, roughly continuously, on grounds, interacting, and hearing the official statements and keynote teachings and so on. So did I. I'm very dubious that you actually PAID ATTENTION. So, I'm challenging you on this OUTRIGHT. If you were actually there, and actually PAID ATTENTION, what struck you about all the "official" stuff, the keynote teachings, the main stage? I've written here before about what I came away with, but this is the first time you've ever claimed to have been there. Were you mentally there? If so, what did you see from the main stage? Now why would anyone think it would be a waste of time to try to convince Oldiesman of anything?

Duh. The guy had to move out of his house, hand over his car, find a new home for his family, find a way to get around (no, a car did not instantly materialize), Christians across the state-and in other states- were looking to him for direction and leadership WHILE THAT WAS GOING ON- as well as get a secular job and support his family, and all sorts of things that are private and I have NO KNOWLEDGE of because they were in HIS life. Having had LESS than a few months since the axe fell, he organized "the Way Bible Fellowship, NY" (which was perfectly legal and moral to do) to a greater or lesser degree (I don't know how many legal documents had been signed yet in the middle of all that), he absolutely failed to design, construct and issue NEW NAMETAGS. You've got him dead to rights. Get the stocks, we're gonna lock him in the public square. ========= BTW, the nametags themselves did not "belong" to twi, or any OTHER organization. They "belonged" to the people who owned them. If I wanted to wear my Advanced class nametag to work or on the street now, I am legally able to do so-it "belongs" to ME. If I claimed I represented the organization officially, and I was not empowered to do so, that would be a different story. However, there is no difference between wearing my old nametag, my Varsity letter, my fraternity pin or armband, my confirmation dove, or my insignia for "The Pack" on the street or at any meeting- so long as I'm not pretending to be an official spokesperson for any of those organizations. At the meeting in question, everybody (everybody whose head was not in the sand) was well aware that nobody there was representing twi, and VF SAID SO. God Almighty. You want me to overlook every type of evil lcm committed, but VF doesn't issue new nametags and it's an issue.

Trying to sneak a Jethro Tull song past me? Might have worked-had it not been THAT Jethro Tull song. "Bungle in the Jungle", Jethro Tull. (Yours was, of course, correct.) =================== "Can't they understand that I want her Happens every week Heavy hand upon my collar Throws me in the street"

A) Ok, now we were in the same ROOM at the same time. So I can speak of where you were AT something, and missed the details. B) "He was using Way Intl songbooks". "He was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself." It is not against the law to use Way Intl songbooks in a meeting and not be in their group. He could have used Jehovah's Witness songbooks if he'd wanted to. I could use the books NOW and not break the law. I would not WISH to, but I am legally ABLE to. So, that charge is without merit. Once again, you lack an understanding of copyright. C) "had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo" "Right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself." If he had used a "Way Intl" logo, he would have been using their copyrighted material, which would have been morally and legally wrong. That was the first meeting that I remember ever attending where ALL the twi-specific logos were ABSENT. VF didn't try to make it look like he was connected to twi at that time. EVERYBODY THERE (unless he or she was living under a rock) was well aware of what had happened so far- at least that there had been problems, AND that VF and their Territory Coordinators had been fired by twi. Did you know people at that meeting who weren't aware of any of this? (And they weren't new arrivals.) VF never said he was connected with twi at that meeting. What WAS his connection? We all thought we were still connected to each other, but not twi. Therefore "twi" didn't apply, but "NY" did. That leaves "the way." Jesus Christ is STILL the way, truth and life, and using "the way" as a term or title has had a long, proud tradition among Christians, even before some schmuck on a farm claimed to see imaginary snow. It's been a proud tradition AFTER that as well. Thus, "the Way of New York" was neither ILLEGAL nor IMMORAL nor DECEPTIVE to use. Everybody there knew the basics of what had happened, and who we were. What in the world gave you the idea this was a twi meeting? He had everything up but a sign saying "I can't believe it's not the way international!" above his head.

So, VF was immaculate and above reproach, except when he was treating you badly? Was VF good or bad? You're all over the map here....

I went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions. Raf went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions. OTHERS did so, as well. I saw them there. YOU didn't. OTHERS didn't. That's no crime, but don't you think it's a little silly for you to generalize that most people DIDN'T know anything you didn't? I never said MOST people knew what I knew or DIDN'T know what I knew. I DID know that a lot of people across the country had inside information because I heard from them. (See, phones and regular mail worked just fine before the internet.) I heard all they said, and I STILL went to check things out for myself. (They were all correct.)

Kinda pointless to cheat when there's no score, no way to win or lose, and we're on the honor system, I figure. Plus, I've played trivia games with teenagers, and THEY have no trouble sticking to the honor code.... ============ I liked the last song because it referenced Del Shannon's "Little Runaway". But, we move on. ============ "Clowns to the left of me"

1980-1981. ======== "Way Corps has increased in size. But the concern is still for the individual." "Incident of a guy not taking notes during a session in the BRC. Dr stopped and told him to pack up and go home. The next morning Dr asked LCM to go get the guy and bring him over to the courtyard. Dr asked him if he'd ever finished anything in his life before. He answered that he hadn't. Dr decided to give him a second chance and explained to LCM that if this guy didn't make it through the Corps and finish it, then his life from here on in would be a wash-out." "Corps placements-to bless the individual first, then the ministry." "Picking a new president for the ministry. Dr was not there for the actual announcement of the new president. Don made the announcement for him. They were in the BRC and had been instructed to be there for the announcement. Everyone in the room had given in a slip of paper with their suggestion on it. Dr reviewed them and then left. When Don came back in all he said was 'Craig, you're the man!' " "Jan 81-SNS Official announcement of the new president. LCM shares for his acceptance speech." "LCM realizes the benefits of having Dr retire early. The early announcement was also beneficial. It gave people time to adjust to the new circumstances. Dr tells LCM only to give thanks to God for the honor of getting the presidency. It's not necessary to thank everyone who helped teach you." February 1981. ========= "There us no greater sorrow than to hear that a trusted follower no longer walks in the truth. Incident of the research guy who decided to leave the ministry due to differences in opinion on the Word. He claimed that the research team did nothing but kow-tow to Dr- "Yes Men"." "Dr always strove to have a proper research environment." "JCOP book-there was a hardness of attitude in the manuscript, Dr sniffed it out and discovered that it was due to the guy who had left the team. He had been working extensively on it." "R&E is videotaped. Dr came to first session to check out all the details of the class. Dr instructed the back room staff on how to handle and care for LCM. Dr was crying when the final session came up. 'I feel right now what it says in the gospels- "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." ' It was the greatest compliment that LCM had ever heard." "Trustee annual meeting in Canada. It takes a lot of work to relax, to do it right. Preparation!" "It isn't just the accuracy of the Word that we teach-it's the heart with which we teach it." "Exposing yourself to new situations is a habit that leaders should have if they want to remain fluid." "You find out where people's hearts are at when you reprove them. It's easy to get along when everyone is nice. It doesn't matter who handles the matter so long as it gets handled." "Dr was always humble enough to be bold. Incident of correcting Bob Richards the olympic athlete who came to speak at Emporia. He was using words inaccurately, e.g. 'create', 'possess', etc." "Dr always did it with love and diplomacy." 1980-1981. "Dr said 'If it wasn't for the hope of the return, I couldn't take the pressure.' " "'Athletes of the Spirit' production. Dr called it a 'Masterful' production." (Next- 1981-1982)

I'm glad someone else caught that. "He always does it this way. Except when he doesn't."

Oldiesman: "The didn't [tell me about the crap going on...] Otherwise, they would have told me about it. We were very close." === Mr Hammeroni: "BOTH of my WOW brothers went in the corps..and we were as close as a group of folks could get prior to this. They told me...nothing. Period. Even those who left...for YEARS would not tell me anything. Probably under threat of expulsion, death or worse. ======== Well, don't let that bother you, Mr Hamm. Oldiesman didn't see it, it didn't happen. Oldiesman wasn't told good reasons, there were no good reasons. Oldiesman didnt see abuse of power, there was no abuse of power. That's what he meant, and, of course, he'll continue to deny that's exactly where he's going. NONE of us had good reasons for leaving, because OLDIESMAN had no good reasons for leaving. ME AND RAF went to hq ourselves, evaluated the situations, listened to lcm and the others, and made up our own minds and left. We were in NY. According to Oldiesman, people in NY never left as a result of making up their own minds. Maybe this means we weren't from NY, or it means we're lying. Either way, Oldiesman refuses to accept that some of us made better-informed decisions than him. The killer is that he had the SAME opportunity as me and Raf did to kick the tires, check for fingerprints, check the tire-tracks from Rockingham, etc. Having that opportunity, Raf and I investigated. Oldiesman did not. Oldiesman then concluded that there was INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION to draw a conclusion. Oldiesman's "investigation" stopped pretty quick. But it allowed him to make the decision that made him comfortable. He got to hang around with his family, who, coincidentally, also made the same decision. You can work out the ramifications of that yourself.

Well, I was in NY also-but apparently, it was a DIFFERENT NY than YOU were in. The problem is, we can imagine different scenarios, but to change ONE thing affects ALL things. See, I was aware there were problems at hq. What did I say? I said-rather naively-that lcm would return to balance with some help from VF. The very next communication I received from hq burst that bubble. lcm fired VF. Did VF confront lcm on Biblical issues? Yes. I'm not digging out all my 1989 correspondence for you. However, I got a copy of something someone never shredded at hq. It was one response from VF when lcm was barking orders and ignoring everyone. RC also sent some telexes (remember telexes) to lcm when there was some hope of keeping the organization intact. NEITHER was people yelling. There was exasperation, godly approaches, and good-faith attempts to communicate. lcm did not choose to listen. When rank-and-file people responded to the "I'm firing all the staff in your state because they're evil" letter, they asked WHAT prompted the accusations. They got form letters saying "none of your business-my word is good enough for you." This stopped me from mailing MY letter- which I HAD drafted, and was ready for mailing. I saw no point. Looking back, I wish I had, just to underscore the boilerplate fashion of the replies. See, when lcm drew his line in the sand, he fired everyone who refused to give blind loyalty, AND savaged their reputations in every state. He accused them of not serving God, period. So much for the SUPPOSED idea that he would have accepted the concept of people serving God without serving lcm. Either he honestly thought serving God could ONLY come through him- which means he needed medical attention- or he KNEW that it was possible that one could serve God without serving lcm, and he chose to lie and say the opposite- which means he allowed his OWN desires to REPLACE godly service. =============== So, what could VF have done? A) Blindly serve. This would have made him UNWORTHY of leadership. (Just as DEMANDING blind service all by itself made lcm UNWORTHY of leadership.) B) Approach lcm and try to fix him. Attempted and lcm blew a raspberry at that. Blindly serve, VF. I don't want your input. C) Unable to repair the situation, refuse to pretend there werent gross, irreparable problems. That's just not-lying. VF did this also. D) When lcm DEMANDED blind loyalty or firing, accept firing since it was less unacceptable than blind loyalty. VF did this also. VF did everything reasonable. What was he supposed to do- take lcm in the back room with the rubber hoses? ====== So, what if VF had chosen to stay? Well, the problems with this are: you've established that VF was not corrupt- "above reproach", respected. If he WAS worthy of respect, he would be unable to stay. If he WAS able to stay, he would chose organic unity and a cushy job over committments to God. That would have been UNworthy of respect. Would people have stayed if VF woke up one morning and said "I'll keep the cushy job and sell out the family"? Some would, some would NOT. I was prepared to leave no matter WHO stayed. I looked things over myself, and concluded lcm was corrupt based on what HE said and did, and mrs lcm said and did, and all the error propounded to prop him up by the "blind loy" faction. HOWEVER, one of the signs that things could not have been fixed was lcm saying "I'm firing all the leadership in your state." If lcm had not been so full of himself that this was his decided-upon course of action, then he wouldn't have been as completely corrupt as he actually was, so there would have been more of a reason to stay-since there would have been hope of restoring his sanity, or him stepping down and someone else getting the job. There WERE others who could have done the job. VF could have done it. Ralph D. could have done it. Walter C could have done it. So, when we play "if VF had stayed", we either rewrite the situation so that lcm wasn't corrupt, or we pretend lcm WASN'T corrupt. All evidence since then proves an ironclad case that lcm WAS corrupt. Many people BEFORE then saw that it was so BEFORE then. The man lcm was in 1999 WAS the same man lcm was in 1989. Except he had more experience- which should have made him WISER. The lcm in 1989 made decisions. The lcm in 1990 made decisions. The lcm in 1991 made decisions. The lcm in 1992 made decisions. The lcm in 1993 made decisions. The lcm in 1994 made decisions. The lcm in 1995 made decisions. The lcm in 1996 made decisions. The lcm in 1997 made decisions. The lcm in 1998 made decisions. The lcm in 1989 decided what was MOST important to him, as did the lcm in each year. lcm had a free hand, from 1990 on, to declare the course of the ministry EXACTLY the way he wanted with little interference from ANYONE. So, the 1990 twi was HIS decision- as was the 1990, 1991, 1992.... In each year, lcm all by himself decided the course of twi, and the results the next year were the result of his decisions. The lcm of 1990 was the SAME lcm of 1989, just more overt, which was more overt than the lcm of 1987-who had hidden his loyalty demands. The lcm of 1999 was the SAME lcm as the lcm of 1989, except that he'd had 10 years to mold twi as he saw fit, and built himself up in his OWN mind as a great leader. That was simply a continuation of the 1989 lcm. The man Craig was in 1999 was entirely the man of his own manufacture, and the result of the freewill decisions he HIMSELF had made the past decade, and you would do well to actually ANALYZE the situation, period.

Sudo, this is "Name that Tune" not "Google that Tune." Anybody can do a web-search for a song and artist. That's NOT what this thread is about. This is a thread where people try to use memory and grey-matter to name songs. It's cheating to google for the song. It is also cheating to google for the song and then post the link you googled, or to drop hints because you know the song because you googled it. ======== Then again, it's possible that you recognized the quote and artist, then googled to get a copy of the lyrics- for reasons which escape me. It's unlikely but certainly possible. Is that what happened?

Let's see if you guys can get this song. (It's a little later than some of you prefer.) "It was a beautiful day, The sun beat down, I had the radio on, I was drivin'. Trees went by Me and 'Del' were singing 'Little Runaway' I was flyin'." If you recall this song, you'll probably remember the opening guitar riff FIRST.

Oooh, watch this... "Ralph Bellamy Coming to America James Earl Jones" :D