WordWolf

[Just going by what they posted here, they said that the written pfal WAS the taped pfal, with THEM editing the thing, not vpw. They did the best job they could accurately reflecting what was on tape-content and intent. You said HE put in the time and effort. They said THEY put in the time and effort. THEY were eyewitnesses, primary sources. Therefore, whose account should I believe?] [The Orange Book is separate from THIS statement. THAT was them condensing his stuff. As to the "time-travel" thing, I'm surprised you're bringing that up, since that entire chapter contains a rather glaring error- Paul talking about someone he knew once who saw a vision of the future suddenly morphs into Paul himself- and can ONLY be correct if one discards vpw's basic assertion that Christians after the First Century church lost "The Truth". The ONLY possible defense of this glaring error is to go to church history, and find that-several centuries AFTER the First-a few Christian writers believed that was actually Paul rather than the account being explained "in the verse where it is written." PFAL's professed study techniques-when applied to this chapter- say this chapter is wrong. The only way to save it is to discard the techniques taught IN pfal, AND accept that vpw was completely WRONG about Christians descending into error- then finding the ones that agree with this chapter- AND IGNORING THOSE WHO DON'T. In short, you must accept that what you want to believe is true, is actually true-then seek the documentation to back it up. This method was derided BY vpw many times, and supposedly is a hallmark of the "inferior" Christians in denominations.] [so, the VIDEOS would be more important, if we were discussing neurosurgery.] [sub-vocalizing would mean that the readers were silently reading WHILE MOVING THEIR LIPS. Do "most (if not all)" people really do that?] [Right-and thus your image of him is based-not on the face-to-face encounters- but on what I already stated.] [False dilemma. I pick Door Number 3-I was correct as stated.] [Actually, I was GOING to spare you the FULL recall, since it wasn't fully germane, and HUMILATING you isn't a goal of mine, but if you insist.... To those joining us late, Mike has discussed vpw. Now, vpw, as many of you know, was a fair student as far as grades went, but lazy. That's why he consistently picked the softest options possible from his available choices (minister over business, homiletics over Bible languages, etc.) If he'd applied himself more, perhaps he'd have been a better student and less inclined to cut corners. vpw was a fair athlete as well, playing on his high school basketball team, but not his college one. He did like the atmosphere, though, and associated himself with a local professional team around that time. Now then, Mike has characterized this man as follows: "He was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn." He was "gifted, even overgifted." "When he walked, the earth shook." Mike genuinely believes this-that vpw was some sort of EXTREME GENIUS and EXTREME ATHLETE, and that his raw believing shook the earth. I didnt want to KEEP mentioning this, since to bring this up is to make Mike look delusional. However, Mike seems insistent that this SUPPORTS his case somehow. So, there you have it. Mike believes vpw was some sort of genius, gifted physically and intellectually. Now then, Mike has attempted to defend his statements by saying that there are professional athletes who are famous for being gifted, and it is no different when discussing their millionaire careers in athletics with the games of basketball occasionally played by vpw on an amateur level. Supposedly, it is perfectly reasonable to compare the two, and me NOT bringing that up DIMINISHES Mike's case. Further, Mike's DEMANDING I include the comments about vpw shaking the earth. vpw-whose own inability to assert his believing over his own body to counteract the poor health he was giving it- supposedly shook the EARTH with his believing. (But could not shake some cells.) His athletic prowess also was NOT reflected into later years, despite some UNexceptional athletes playing into their SEVENTIES, but vpw didn't stay in shape. Mike has also said that he thinks it is in no way idolatrous nor hero worship to consider the man exceptional both physically and intellectually, the paragon of human potential. Supposedly, me NOT bringing this up means I'm "swamped with dishonesty." Well, there's 2 points of view. A) I'm accurately reflecting Mike, and he's delusional or lying when he says I'm not. B) Mike's accusations are accurate, and I'm NOT representing him fairly. Feel free to read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. ] [The so-called "Law of Believing" is not a law. It fails as stated in the video. It fails as stated in the book. It fails as practiced by people. Its failure to sustain vpw's life really doesn't count as news around here anymore-and he was the supposed master of believing- and had sufficient amounts of it to "shake the earth". pfal didn't work, therefore twi failed US. Small wonder twi failed overall.] You mix fact with error. VPW had faults and he suffered consequences because of them. So did we. [but according to you, those faults did not bring down the ministry. That's the point I made-which YOU'VE made, and for some reason are now DENYING.] [And not because it was designed and implemented wrong, nor because its founder committed felonious sins, according to you. I said that and you accused me of lying.] [Tell you what- if you found some hidden messages in that, let's hear them. This might be interesting. At worst, it will be different.]

At this point, I honestly believe Mike has reached a state of delusion and hallucination great enough to make this an UNINTENTIONAL vicious lie-as opposed to the INTENTIONAL vicious lie it would be otherwise. Raf never "assumed" that PFAL is "not God-breathed". Raf took the clear meaning of the text for what it was. When Mike came in with his claim that the plain meaning of the text was to be discarded in favour of "HIDDEN" messages that declare pfal to be God-breathed, Raf took the standards GIVEN IN PFAL and applied the TO PFAL and proved that PFAL falls FAR short of God-breathed. To those who find pfal useful, this is NOT a shock. It's only upsetting news to those who have replaced their Bibles entirely with pfal as a new Bible. So, Mike-again-lied-again-about Raf's method-again, after having been corrected about that MANY TIMES. However, I suspect his delusions divert the plain meaning of any such correction, so Mike is more to be pitied for his delusions than blamed for his lies. Of course, it is MIKE who ignores the totality of what it says. The Orange Book says "this is a book on keys". Mike ignores that, and says it is a Bible REPLACEMENT, and not a tool for understanding the Bible. Raf refuses Mike's method because Mike's method requires one to discard linear thought. Mike refuses to use Raf's methods because the results are ones Mike has decided he will never accept. Never mind that the "method" in question was outlined IN PFAL to begin with.][/b] [unless that motivation, love and brains leads them to conclusions other than those Mike proposes- then they are "unfit researchers", "crybabies", etc.]

It was worth considering, but, yes, it would be illegal.

Oakspear's fingertips needed this thread. :)

[WordWolf in brackets & boldface.]

Here's that poem: "The Bridge Builder, by Will Allen Dromgrode, 1934 An old man, going a lone highway Came at the evening, cold and gray, To a chasm, vast and deep and wide, Through which was a flowing sullen tide. The old man crossed in the twilight dim; But he turned when safe on the other side And built a bridge to span the tide. 'Old man', said a fellow pilgrim near, 'You are wasting strength with building here. Your journey will end with the ending day. You never again must pass this way. You have crossed the chasm, deep and wide-- Why build you a bridge at eventide?' The builder lifted his old, gray head: 'Good friend, in the path I have come,' he said, 'There followeth after me today A youth whose feet must pass this way. This chasm that has been naught to me To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be. He, Too, must cross in the twilight dim. Good friend, I am building a bridge for him.' "

[Mike, you're the only one who wants that. Go ahead and make your OWN messageboard for that. If people REALLY want to discuss it, and you invite them, they'll show up.] [Well,you DO want to control the microphone. You can do that when you control the forum.] [No problem. Right after you stop posting commercials of your OWN, it will diminish AGAIN.]

Larkin: ---"Rightly Dividing the Word"----- Chapter 1 Rightly Dividing the Word Chapter 2 Ages and Dispensations Chapter 3 Jew and Gentile Chapter 4 Church and Kingdom Chapter 5 The Four Gospels Chapter 6 The Two Advents Chapter 7 The Spirit World Chapter 8 Satan Chapter 9 The Satanic Trinity Chapter 10 "The Mystery of Godliness" and "The Mystery of Iniquity" Chapter 11 Resurrection of Jesus Chapter 12 The Resurrections Chapter 13 The Judgements Chapter 14 The Two Adams Chapter 15 Atonement and Redemption Chapter 16 Sin and Salvation Chapter 17 Law and Grace Chapter 18 Faith and Works Chapter 19 The Two Natures Chapter 20 Standing and State Chapter 21 Regeneration and Baptism Chapter 22 Election and Free-Will Chapter 23 The Reciprocal Indwelling of Christ and the Believer Chapter 24 The Threefold Work of Christ Chapter 25 Christ Our Passover Chapter 26 Heaven and Hell Chapter 27 Judaism and Christianity Chapter 28 The Circles of the Christian Life Chapter 29 Palace Beautiful Copyright is 1920. Larkin is younger than Scofield and Bullinger, and their books came before his. However, in both cases, these books had a wide circulation among Christians. Thus, A) divinity students had access to them (like young vpw) B) their contents were in the world before 1942, which means that teaching their contents does not reveal anything not extant in the church as of 1942.

See, Mike lacked the closeness with vpw that the corps had. If he HAD, he'd have been in a better position to see him as he WAS, and not as he's built vpw up in his mind. Ever see people in love with a celebrity-from afar? Then when they get to actually meet the real person without the press releases, they're completely crushed, since the reality failed to meet the fantasy? That's what we're dealing with here. A starstruck person dealing with a fantasy. Hey, Che Gueverra still has fans-probably more now than when alive. Of course there's resentment. Worse-those who interacted with vpw regularly (HCW, among others) have already told him he's completely wrong with the basis of his doctrine, as well as how the "written pfal" is supposedly superior to the "taped pfal" and so on. They have an inside track on information he wants, AND they disagree with him, both of which are unforgiveable. Mike has met vpw a few times, and has constructed a detailed personality of him, based on those and his entire PUBLIC PERSONA. That's a completely different person than the one you've met. Mike loves the persona he's constructed. That person is nigh-perfect, and shakes the earth when he walks. He's got an overabundance of brains and brawn. You might even say he's OVERgifted. Finally, you're forgetting his framework! pfal didn't work, twi didnt work. He has declared by fiat that it wasn't vpw's fault, but everyone else's. (That wasn't just "Passing of the Patriarch-Mike's said it also.) Therefore, like PoP did, Mike blames every leader and every corps person. It's all YOUR fault. vpw is blameless- a pox on you and your ancestors! And your mother dresses you funny. And you killed vpw. And so on.

Oh, it goes a step FURTHER than that. Mike adds a delicious new level. See, if you just go by the contents of PFAL, you will NOT agree with Mike. PFAL says PFAL is about KEYS, that it does not REPLACE Genesis to Revelation. The Mikean system puts forth that Genesis to Revelation is now obsolete, so long as you have pfal-that pfal, in short, replaces Genesis to Revelation and that it is more than simply KEYS. So, vpw put his own name on work that wasn't his, and claimed it was his. Mike has come along with a new system, has put VPW's name on work that wasn't VPW's, and claims it was his. vpw claimed to make known the Bible. Mike claims to make known pfal, a new Bible. But don't blink-his precise claims are subject to change without warning, and retroactively were ALWAYS the claims he holds today-even when YESTERDAY they were different.

Since we only have vpw's word on this incident, I can't trust it any more than any other incident- and vpw's track record on inventing incidents is too long for me to trust it. For those of you who are new, here's what Mike is talking about. vpw spent the entire time of twi and pfal insisting that it was better than ANYTHING the Christian church can offer outside of twi and pfal. (Since it was a composite of the works of a few other Christians, this was-at least-an outright lie and a deception. Mike is perfectly comfortable with this, and keeps saying that God WANTED it this way-God wanted vpw to plagiarize, God WANTED vpw to leave out footnotes, etc. Virtually everything in twi was an advertisement for pfal- or something that advertised pfal (like the wow program) or otherwise centralized power to vpw (like the corps.) So, after decades of advertising pfal, vpw made a "final" tape, called "the Joy of Serving." It is an ad for pfal. It says, in short: A) The best thing you can do is serve people. B) The best thing you can serve those people is pfal. C) Therefore you must learn more pfal so you can serve people more pfal. You must master it and then serve it to them. D) There are no answers among Christians outside twi. I can find you a link, but I just saved you 20 minutes instead. Feel free to look it up yourself. :) "The Joy of Serving", if it was really a Last Will and Testament of vpw to twi, was a miserable indictment of the crippling limitations vpw suffered under. If he, at that age, honestly was blind to the skills of other Christians, he lacked acumen. If he was AWARE of the skills of other Christians, he was not blind-he was a vicious LIAR who WITHHELD the truth from people so as to keep the gravy train running on time. So, all that "rebellious teenagers" blather was because "we failed to master PFAL." Mike, see, views that tape as a damning indictment of everybody in twi except vpw. twi had problems, but vpw was NOT the cause of any of them, and he did NOT set the stage for them in how he taught the corps, treated staff, etc. Since it CAN'T be vpw's fault, it must be the fault of everyone else. Just as the fake "law" of believing is used to continually "move the goalposts" i.e. "if you REALLY believed, it would have worked, so you must not have REALLY believed..", Mike claims the fall of twi was due to the rank-and-file failing to live up to the "promise" of pfal that NEVER materialized in our lives. So, Mike blames us all collectively and individually. And if you never met vpw, then you lack sufficient experience and are too moronic to comprehend what Mike's talking about without such experience- which is the ONLY thing that allows one to agree with Mike. vpw makes commercial after commercial for pfal. And many of us, without hearing them, had set out to "master" pfal on our own-which is why some of us can recite sections of the books without having read them for DECADES. According to Mike,since the bad stuff happened, it must have been our fault, so we must have been doing the wrong thing. The Last Great Commercial of VPW is upon us! It was a commercial the likes of which have not been seen since the First Century! According to Mike, if we don't see The Last Great Commercial of VPW as anything less than the great spiritual wakeup call of the 20th century, we're spiritually inept. Since that one comes from Mike, most of us-to say the least-are less than terrified of this appraisal. Therefore, you "must" see it Mike's way, right? "You can agree with Mike, or you can be spiritually in error." vpw is still THE TEACHER as he called HIMSELF. And those who came to different conclusions are "jaded". More of a comedy of errors.

Of course it is. Take one poster (rhino, for example.) rhino spends some time in twi, trying to learn some God-stuff, sometimes learning some God-stuff. rhino spends some quality time with some Christians that feel like family. rhino later learns that there were terrible things happening, and while rhino was being blessed, others were being cursed (by vpw in the motorcoach and other places, or by those he trained in that sort of thing, aka his criminal gang.) rhino concludes at some point that God doesn't need felons to lead people to Christ, and splits. rhino has learned some good stuff, but now seeks BETTER- among Christians out there. Was twi a scam from the beginning? Well, mostly. Was there some benefit in there? Well, partly. Was it God's will for the 2 to be mixed? No. Was rhino's time all wasted in there? Probably not. BUT, rhino has moved on. Take a different poster. (Let's call him "Gabe".) Gabe spent some time in twi, trying to learn some God-stuff, sometimes learning some God-stuff. Gabe spends some quality time with some Christians that feel like family. Gave later learns that there were terrible things happening, and while Gabe was being blessed, others were being cursed. At some point, Gabe leaves twi. Later, Gabe looks back at the time he spent in twi and refuses to accept that it wasn't all "profitable". "I spent all that time in twi TRYING to serve God- so it MUST have served God! Somehow, God must have WANTED me to focus on PFAL- so I shall! Oho! THAT's the reason! PFAL is the new Bible, better than the current Bible! My life has meaning! I must spread this good news to others!" See-that would not be about what GOD wanted, but what GABE wanted.

Eventually, one of us jumps in with a new song. Usually, we give the other person a few days first. In this case, the thread moved, so that adds to the confusion.

5 pages. And yes, it's effectively interchangeable, no?

It's SUPPOSED to be pawnbroker's turn....

....which makes it Linda's turn......

Why do I do it now, or what would give me the most satisfaction? Why I do it now..... At this moment, there is someone who was kicked out of twi who was told that all other Christians were scum, that life outside of twi equals death, that anything bad in twi is only WORSE outside of twi. He's feeling like life is over since he failed to grovel convincingly, or just got sick and tired of being sick and tired. At this moment, there is someone who is suffering their way through twi. She's desperately hoping that SOMETHING will change, but nothing ever does. She was taught that other Christians were scume, that life outside of twi equals death, that it's always worse outside of twi. At this moment, there's someone who's just heard of twi for the first time. I post for all of them. :) What would please me most.... Seeing an announcement that everyone left twi, 100% of the rank-and-file, leaving them with an empty auditorium and some buildings, and the IRS would like a word with them about their status as a non-profit.

Not to mention this followed lcm making a DEMAND for an oath of loyalty, and saying that you refused to choose among men instead was not an option. This was a BLATANT disregard for Acts and how the average Christian was to be treated. (We had no idea this was how vpw and lcm had always run the corps, and this was now just getting around to the rest of us.)

I really don't want to get into a debate about this one. However, to hear anti-dispensationists tell it, the whole thing was cooked up in one afternoon by Darby and was based entirely on a prophecy by a little girl. The concept, however, IS many centuries older than that. No, I don't have the documentation in front of me. Yes, I know you don't have to believe me just because I said so. However, you are free to do your own checking. I'd recommend skipping anything that references Dave McPherson. He's demonstrated a personal vendetta to the entire concept, and has shown he's not above manufacturing testimony and outright manufacturing "evidence" to support his point. He blames it for many problems in his life and his father's life. Disagree with Darby and Scofield all you want, but please don't mix facts with speculation, and especially don't make up lies in the process (don't be a Dave McPherson.) Darby and Scofield saw reasons to believe what they believed, and others did as well.

Hey guys, One of the things I wish Mike would do is actually READ WHAT'S WRITTEN, instead of see something and hallucinate an entire post around it. Until this moment, I haven't posted on this thread YET! What battle has Mike been observing with me in it? I'm missing all the details, since I'm not even there!

[Doesn't take many posts of Mike's to determine that. Actually, as of the other day, it takes fewer posts, since he's being a lot more candid in his posting, less coy. Now we can have a nice civil discussion on content-in theory, anyway.] [FALSE DILEMMA, aka BIFURCATION. Once again, that is the separating of a discussion into TWO positions when there are MORE THAN TWO positions to hold. For example, "Either PFAL is completely useless or PFAL sprang forth from God's temple!" would be a FALSE DILEMMA. PFAL could be the work of a man, and have some useful things, and some error. Therefore, SOME of it may be useful, which would be more useful once it's separated from the error. In fact, such is the case. Your statement once again IGNORES that position. If ONE SENTENCE in PFAL is useful, that hardly elevates the entire thing to Divine status, let alone "master the whole thing" status. Furthermore, "mastering the Orange Book and the White Book", for example, would actually give you a MUCH different result than "mastering" the Mikean system of "pfal", as he claims it is. And THAT IS on-topic for this thread.] [FALSE DILEMMA NUMBER TWO! "People who cling to PFAL either do so because of Wierwille OR because 'PFAL teaches God's Word many times over.' " With no other possibilities. Oh, there's so MANY reasons some folks still cling to PFAL. MOST of them ARE because of Wierwille in one way or another. twi innies were told all other Christians live in ERROR, and that they can cling to twi and pfal, or wallow in ERROR. (Yes, THAT was a False Dilemma also.) twi innies were told that they had a special doctrine FROM God because their teacher-who called himself THE Teacher- supposedly had a special connection to God-and that they were being taught like First Century Christians, and GREATER than anything Christians had learned for NINETEEN CENTURIES. So, even if they leave twi the organization, many find they have not left the specific indoctrination. They are afraid to be exposed to other Christians and touch ERROR. They are afraid to discover twi taught some error, also. (Well, humans don't teach PERFECT doctrine-which is contrary to twi but matches common sense.)] [Or, you know, he or she can look over some quality materials fromOTHER Christians, and see that there's BETTER material available, and easily findable.] ================== Actually, since those ARE your exact words, and they represent what you said AND meant, and they represent the position you have not changed from, I represented you accurately. You wish I wouldn't ACCURATELY QUOTE you so. Hey, I could have gone into what you've said about vpw himself, but I didn't.