WordWolf

BTW, vpw's OTHER snow story-the famous "snow on the pumps"- has a few details you may find interesting. A) It supposedly happened in 1942. The earliest he could POSSIBLY have told anyone was 1970, since Mrs W said that he FIRST told the story to the corps, and there WERE none before 1970. She said he kept it to himself and that he told no one. That means-the day it happened- he did NOT immediately tell his wife the moment he saw her. That ALONE stretches credibility, to me. If I was married and God spoke to me, I would tell the Mrs the next time I saw her-pretty quick unless it was physically impossible to tell her within a few seconds of seeing her. B) The details seem to change-both of what he says and what happens. For example, the account he DOES tell Mrs W includes the miraculous snow making the view look "pitch-black, almost pitch-black". Other accounts have it look like NORMAL snow. Mind you, nobody I've polled has EVER seen a BLACK snowstorm. Even blizzards and snow at nighttime in the countryside ALL look WHITE. Perhaps he tried telling the story with BLACK snow, and switched to more conventional snow later. Perhaps later he switched to black snow to make it more unusual.

Amazing you're going to try to defend this, but I'm game. Here's what vpw HIMSELF said on the subject, as recorded in "The Way:Living in Love", which was an in-house book written to serve as a long ad as to how great twi was. As we pick up the action, vpw's at that big meeting in Tulsa, and getting ready to leave. pg-198. "So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, so I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said 'No, this is the first time.' " That was everything he said about that event in that book, except for "But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway." (pg-199.) So, was it supposed to be an ACTUAL snowstorm? YES. A "blizzard". He called the airport. He called the train depot. He called the bus depot. He called the airport AGAIN. "THE CITY WAS SNOWBOUND. I JUST COULDN'T GET OUT!" (That's 4 different people, in 3 different locations.) According to vpw, the entire city was snowed in. Period. Now, then, what was the reality of the event? "Way Corps graduate Barries HIll later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by 'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.)" "The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees [Fahrenheit], and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma' show only 5/10 an inch of snow on December 8th and 6/10 an inch of snow on December 20. NEITHER date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSES AND TRAINS." So, Barries Hill found that the reality of the event did not match vpw's account of the event. "Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do NOT record a snowstorm at that time." Naturally, this woman-who previously had believed him COMPLETELY- brought this to his attention. It is at THIS time that the new levels of this story develop. "When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was 'a phenomenon' or that he 'spoke with angels' when he called the airport, train station and bus station. Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication." Those of you who are new to this story can pick up a few details here: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_itulsasnow.htm Those of you who are curious might also want to know that MRS W's account of this story (in Born Again to Serve mentions NOTHING about a blizzard, planes, trains or buses being snowbound or REPORTED to be snowbound. She mentions snow in Chicago (which has no effect on the weather in Tulsa or New Knoxville, which are hundreds of miles away from both) and that there was "sleet forcast in Tulsa by Thursday." Now, they don't even delay buses, trains or planes for SLEET. You've driven through SLEET. So, Mrs W does not support a claim of a blizzard or of a REPORT of a blizzard, whether by human or angel. So, in plain English, what was the deal about snow and Tulsa? vpw later claimed that there was a blizzard that completely boxed him in and forced him to stay at the convention (which was when he met Stiles), which forced him to be on site for things. Weather reports completely contradict his story. When vpw is caught saying the opposite of the evidence, he suddenly CHANGES his story, and claims that angels lied to him when he contacted each location. Please note that-although this was YEARS after the event- his accounts-which came in 1970-1971- NEVER even SUGGEST this, despite the fact that any fool can look out a window and NOT see a blizzard in the middle of a major city when there ISN'T one, and see people entering and exiting a hotel in 60 degree weather when he SHOULD be seeing them stamping snow off boots rather than wearing light jackets, and, apparently, he never exited the hotel to go get lunch, even. (Or he did and failed to notice that he was dressed for weather 40 degrees colder than he was expecting.)

Johnny: I wasn't reacting to the "gun safety course", I was reacting to an idiot with a loaded shotgun in an apartment, passing it around and getting a hole blown in the ceiling.

Well, if you want a paraphrase of the Bible verses, yes, there are plenty of Bibles that will serve at least as well. As for vpw's own "literals according to usage", what they are IS paraphrases, and no more guaranteed than, say, "The Message" or "the Amplified Bible." Let's compare ONE VERSE and see the results. I liked vpw's paraphrase of Philippians 4:13, but I never replaced the verse with it or anything. (Most of his other paraphrases I didn't care for.) Philippians 4:13 King James Version: "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." New American Standard Bible (another word-for-word): "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." New International Version: "I can do everything through him who gives me strength." Contemporary English Version: "Christ gives me the strength to face anything." The Message: "Whatever I have, wherever I am, I can make it through anything in the One who makes me who I am." Hm. This is VERY interesting. The Amplified Bible: "I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [i am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him who infuses inner strength into me; I am self sufficient in Christ's sufficiency.]" ALL of that was in that verse in the Amplified Bible, initial copyright 1954. Here's vpw's "literal according to usage": "I am ready for anything and equal to anything through him who infuses inner strength into me." Is there ANYBODY here who thinks that vpw's "literal" of this verse wasn't taken DIRECTLY from the Amplified Bible? Gee, an uncredited source in vpw's background, imagine... I wonder how many OTHER of "his" "literals" might match the Amplified Bible so exactly...

How much training does it take to remember the basics on "how not to accidentally shoot people"? A) Always treat all guns as loaded unless you have emptied it yourself. B) Never point a gun at anything unless you intend to destroy it. C) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sight is on the target. D) Watch your backstop and anything the bullet/s may come in contact with.

That's why I kicked up a fuss on the "vp and me in wonderland" thread. vpw himself was facing corps grads, who had travelled to hq on their own dime, taking time off work (either unpaid or as possibly their ONLY vacation time), who spent "Corps Week" working for free, assembling the structures for the next week's ROA, and then had to go home and get back to their lives the following week. vpw tore them a new one for not staying a second week and working a SECOND week for free. Now, they weren't leaving because they WANTED to. If you were twi (and corps were twi), you WANTED to be at the ROA. They were already RIGHT THERE. The only reason to leave was that they had obligations that required them to leave-familial or job-oriented, or they were broke and could not AFFORD to take off another week and not draw a salary. vpw, on the other hand, went straight from school into the clergy, where he lived off his denomination, until he was able to cut-and-paste pfal from other people's classes, and live off THEIR 10%. He had NO EXPERIENCE with regular 40-hour work-weeks, salaries, and so on. lcm went straight from college to the way corps, and spent all his time after THAT on twi's payroll. It's pretty nervy to attack people who are giving all they CAN, just because they can't give MORE. Not every way corps person was able to act as a complete slave to twi at all times.

Sir, why do you think I never installed it? The caching feature on their servers allows you to load stuff faster- and allowed others to access your cache. People were browsing online stores, and their browser was announcing they were logged into the site as [name of someone else.] Private forums and stuff could be accessed by the same method. I love Google's normal search function. But ANY data ANYBODY saves makes me give them "the hairy eyeball", so the "helpful improvements" I pass on.

Actually, when I get bored, I sometimes toss this question around for an instant. Depending on my mood, I've figured either Benjamin Bratt, Lou Diamond Phillips or Esai Morales. As I just discovered, however, all of them are about 6 ft tall. So, they could play a TALL me. Or an older, tall me, to be specific. I don't know of any current actors for a younger me... Here's Benjamin Bratt: http://images.hollywood.com/images/4_1099844.jpg Here's Lou Diamond Phillips: http://entimg.msn.com/i/gal/HollywoodHomic...ips_350x435.jpg Here's Esai Morales: http://www.enzogiobbe.com/celebs/Esai_Morales3a.jpg

Actually, a Jew once told me outright that was his major beef with Christianity, that the Trinity was pretty much his dividing line.

Looks like you and I made the same points, Oak. Think anybody will read them?

To most people that even had a passing familiarity with it, too. Me, I just made sure my fridge was full and that I would need to go to the bank for a few days. My concerns were panicking people. When I saw India made it fine, that was the final confirmation I needed. Actually, I heard on various media that this was nothing to worry about and why. It was uneducated people NOT in the media that kept sounding the alarm. Like George Wallace said, there were people thinking their TOASTERS would stop working... Well, people seemed to think that anything where the date rolled over would just keel over and die. Now, the media announced THAT wouldn't happen-and had to KEEP mentioning it because some people wouldn't listen. The media are JUST as fine when they're informing a crisis is AVERTED as when they have to sound an alarm. "Blame the media! It's their fault!" Sounds like you're a "shoot the messenger" type. So, the program isn't programmed for 4 digits yet? I notice that your computer and business wouldn't have shut down as soon as it hit midnite-which was what people were predicting. "People will starve because supermarket stock is done electronically, so they won't know what to send out!" I said "Nonsense. The company WITH the stock isn't going to just give up. They will send one dweeb with a hardhat and a clipboard. He will see what they have in stock, and write it down. Then they will get on the phone-which won't shut down at midnite- and call a supermarket, and say "We have this is stock. Do you want it shipped?" This will take LONGER, but it's not like the food currently in stock will suddenly vanish at midnite. (Unless you count people buying it all-but then, of course, that person HAS food and won't be SHOPPING soon!) Actually, all over the city, state and country, people DID rewrite a lot of code. I spoke to several of them. Actually, the people doing the work found it to be a nuisance and boring. They complained about the panic of the companies, all of whom were hyperventilating. One guy was peeved about his New Year's plans. His entire technical division was required to stay in town close to their job in case everything crashed-even AFTER the code was rewritten. So, they hung out and threw their own party-but that WAS "making lemonade from lemons". It was almost incidental with all the OTHER panicks of the decade. lcm was getting his news from some famous paranoid conspiracy sites *coughLibertyLobbycough* that had served vpw for the panicks of the 70s. (Those never came to fruition, either.) So, we had the "Pope Aircraft Carrier" and the "Pope will declare martial law" and the "Pope will force conversion at weapon-point" crap, along with "oh, BTW, the government and civilization will collapse in 5 years. Better stock up on canned food and shotguns." They've been sounding variations on that alarm for longer than I'm aware of, and they're either sounding it now or are making PLANS to sound it again. That's how the "paranoid conspiracy information sources" like the Liberty Lobby STAY IN BUSINESS. Fools PAY THEM to deliver consistently INCORRECT information that they can then use to panic their constituencies. Yeah, more actual news sounded pessimistic too, so the Paranoia Newswire didn't sound like the nonsense-peddlers they still were and always were. Well, the economy sucked and gas prices sucked, but it was hardly The Great Depression, nor the Spanish Flu Outbreak. Now, THOSE were emergencies of the 20th century United States. If you believed that, then your information was MUCH worse than the REALITY was. Most of us-through 20/20 hindsight- can see that it was hardly as bad as many thought then. The gas lines were the worst, but that was as much bad planning on the part of the government and big business that was passed down to the consumer. (Which is an old story.) If there had been a more sensible plan that involved more hybrid cars and hybrid fuels, there would have been gas lines for people with unconverted cars, and business as usual for those who kept up. I mean, one half-assed measure was a move to more fuel-efficient cars for some in the 80s and 90s, and THAT would have made a BIG difference as well...

Unless CK is completely snowing us, there was some sort of "security" check where there was an attempt to determine who was safe to enter and who wasn't based on their name. No, this doesn't gibe with what the MySpace youngsters said. That means either CK is in error, or THEY are in error. Given the above, and knowing how 3rd-hand the MySpace kids get their news (like how there were never any problems under vpw's watch and how Rosa-lie wasn't guilty of conspiracy to commit rape under lcm's watch), I'd say CK's eyewitness account is correct and what the youngsters was told was false once again. Does this qualify as much of a surprise? BTW, what do they REALLY think is going to happen all the way out there? It's not like Al-Qaida is going to try to blow them up or something....

Neither is a brochure legally or morally equivalent to a binding contract. I DID notice that the exact requirement of the corps were subject to complete change at ANY moment. After all, nobody signed a document saying "note-taking is mandatory, and I understand I must always take notes unless otherwise specified", but vpw would throw people out of a room if they weren't taking notes. (And was prepared to throw them out of the corps.) vpw also could-and did-wake up one morning, kick out the entire corps year, (in violation of the obligations HE accepted-that's a 2way street), and then say "you can return only if you write a letter of an oath of loyalty to me"-which he DID require. (Ok, I dont know the time of day he announced they were all kicked out, but that's not the point of my comment.) I'm sure there's a WEALTH of other "requirements" that came and went at a moment's notice as well.

Most Christians have no difficulty seeing this distinction. Some will serve in dramatic, famous ways, some will serve in smaller, equally-vital ways.

That's true whether the distinction is made by the individual leader or the leader he answers to. If the trained leader is trusted that little, then I suppose he's not going to be the one to make the call. If so, why waste 4 years of training on him, only to micro-manage him? Not necessarily.Local needs may change DAY TO DAY. Someone trained as a problem-solver or a troubleshooter in ANY field needs to adapt to accomplish various tasks as they need doing. Area leaders concentrate on the big picture, and watch the area in a more general way. They anticipate general needs-and those may be wrong. It is up to those operating locally to evaluate the situations they are in, determine the best course of action, then carry it out. Many times that may involve keeping others informed, but that is NOT a requirement. Of course, you could easily say "well, the area leader's supposed to listen for divine revelation and anticipate accordingly", but the obvious answer to that is that "the local leader's supposed to do the same, which returns the situation to the general overseer and the local operator. Wrong analogy. A boss and a worker is different from a boss and a supervisor. Both are leaders, and they have specific tasks, to which the other may be poorly suited. If a boss has to KEEP directing the supervisor ALL THE TIME, it reflects a lack of confidence in them to supervise, and is called MICRO-MANAGEMENT. Bosses do not LIKE having to supervise-it means someone else isn't doing their job. Or, you could say that the boss has to oversee an entire department or company, while the supervisor must oversee specifics at the moment, and may need to break the rules or disregard them depending on the situation. ==== Since I'm sure you don't see it this way, I think we're better off declaring an impasse.

Too true. Even better, if his twi was the twi we ALL had experienced, there would have been little need to leave at all!

So, then, we reached an impasse, and agree to disagree?

Seeing things differently is always accepted on the GSC. Keep in mind that some people will give it a shot to convince you that another position might have more merit. Then again, some people will just open fire because you disagree. It's one of the prices we pay in having open discussion here. The goal many of us target is to "disagree without being disagreeable." Some of us succeed in this. Me, I'm a Christian who rarely strikes sparks with the pagans, wiccans and things that go bump in the night. We disagree rather civilly. (Mostly.) We respect that the other has the right to their opinion, and don't waste the energy or bile necessary to go hammer and tongs over the nature of God or whatever. Please also note that most of us see the difference between an opinion held and politely expressed, and a post that insists that everyone else is WRONG! Plus, at some point, EVERYBODY disagrees. And yet, somehow, life goes on.....

And you were incorrect. I figured that if you're trying to train LEADERS-as their CLAIM was despite an absence of anyone with experience running or TAKING any leadership training- then you're training the leader to first A) work autonomously A Leader who second-guesses HIMSELF all the time is double-minded and unstable in all his ways. (The reality was that they WANTED leaders to be anything BUT autonomous-which we can see from the RESULTS-inculcation of blind loyalty.) and then secondarily B) lead others A leader must, by definition, LEAD. That means he is expected to make decisions, and is REQUIRED to do so. (Of course, in twi, all decisions had to be notarized by a higher-up, or you might be in trouble. Then again, if they agreed with you, "God will cover.") So, a Christian is trained to lead in a program, then leaves the program. He is now able to use the skills he learned (presuming he learned any) as an asset to the body of Christ. It is HIS DISCRETION as to where that is done-as he seeks God's guidance directly, and makes decisions accordingly. ======= Of course, there ARE orders where Christians make lifelong commitments to go where they are told to go, serve where they are told to serve, and leave when they are told to leave. Those are referred to by many names, among them Holy Orders, the Priesthood, and so on. Now, THOSE people don't just make ONE decision to enter one program and now they're the property of the organization. (No matter WHAT you were told.) They receive training, and counseling. They are questioned as to their commitment and reasoning. They receive more training, and are REQUIRED to meditate upon, and consider deeply, over and over, the consequences of their decision. It is FAR better for the organization to lose 90% of their candidates than for them to place unstable, corrupt people in all their offices. Those that decide to go ahead swear their oaths, and leave modern society, in a sense. THEY'VE sworn oaths of poverty and chastity and stuff I don't know about because I've never sworn their oaths. Now, THEY signed up for a lifetime serving their organization. That's very different from, say, being a leader who runs a twig for 5 years, then coordinates the next 4 classes, then smooths things over for the new Limb leader, then steps back and helps younger hands learn the basic skills of leading, then returns to run a twig for a few years again, then "semi-retires" and remains available to advise other, newer leaders. Now, did he serve a lifetime? Yes. Was it in Christian service? Yes. Was it where the ministry needed him? Yes. Is WD going to say "You've made a good point?" No. But to most people, the difference, once pointed out, should be obvious.

Well, since the Marines were what vpw pretended to base the Way Corps on, it would be a fair comparison... Fine. I'll go into the Army. Specifically, the West Point Military Academy. It's a college, with degrees like all accredited colleges. It's four years, with college classes and military stuff. Right in the applications and literature, VERY PROMINENTLY, the REQUIREMENTS are laid out SPECIFICALLY. One, once you are in attendance, you've a committment to all 4 years. Two, at the end of your training, you're committed to 4 years service in the Army, where you start at the rank of Second Lieutenant. Three, If you washed out of the academy, you are STILL committed to 4 years service in the Army, where you start at the rank of Sergeant. Obligations and requirements are crystal-clear. That's how SERIOUS commitments are made. Big difference between "training to serve God a lifetime and to lead a Twig" and "required to lead a Twig the rest of your life", which is how YOUR version would read. Please be consistent.

Igotout: "What Skyrider is alluding to is that the Way Corps 'commitment' we originally made became a 'we own you and you WILL do what we say for the rest of your lives' commitment. And if you didn't like it then you were dropped from the Corps if not kicked out all together from TWI. That's pure BS. Originally back when larger groups of us were going into the Corps by the hundreds (I was in the 7th, I believe Sky was in the 9th), it was not implied that there would be this "dog soldier leash" around your life after you graduated. Only much later did this become specifically stated. Heck, I remember LCM stating one evening at a Corps meeting in Emporia... 'Not all of you can become branch leaders. Many of you need to go out and get jobs and careers and go to college.' Well, some of us did. Later we were resented for it. Yes it was implied that once Corps always Corps. No prob. Think Marine Corps. You have had the training and served your country and now you serve in society as a better man for it. It was more promoted as another program like WOW or other such ministry commitments. A Wow Vet was not under this short leash and control, for example, to move every 3 years and such. Yet he is still a Wow Vet. I still have one of the old Corps Vet tee shirts which I would bet they discontinued in latter years. A lifetime of Christian service? No prob...Still doing the best I can. A lifetime of volunteer enslavement on a dog's leash? No way, Rosie!"

Shazdancer: "I was committed to God long before I went into the Corps. I signed up for Recognized Family Corps because I wanted the in-depth knowledge that the Corps was supposedly being taught, before my husband and I were to join Staff. We were accepted into the Corps on that basis. I still have a Recognized Corps certificate to prove it. Long after our in-res year, a couple of Corps leaders tried to explain to me that I had made a lifetime committment to the Corps program-to submit to evaluations, and go to any and all Corps meetings that were required. Silly me for requiring them to honor their agreement with me. I am just as committed to doing good and respecting God as I ever was, I just don't express it in the same way that I did while in TWI."

Skyrider, on the above... "Manipulation-mongers! They waited a couple months and then, slam-dunk our commitment level when we are behind CLOSED DOORS and surrounded by PEER PRESSURE. What a bunch of low-life tactics!..." "By the early 80s...the term 'cop out' had gained legs...and had evolved to mean... any corps person or corps grad who quit taking assignments. Twi changed the parameters. Now, it was a LIFETIME COMMITMENT to stand with twi. And that labelling is still in effect to this day."