WordWolf

*clears throat* Walking along the median strip of the highway, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous.I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss- like a driver jumps the median at the wrong moment. Walking through Central Park late at night, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss- like, say, a guy with a knife and a black cape is hanging out in that area at that moment. Getting your evening excercise by wandering up and down the stairs in the projects, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss-like a drug-user or mugger finds you. Now, if a program claimed to BENEFIT you insisted that you would be REQUIRED to do each, most sensible people would-at the very least-insist on discussing the possible benefits of engaging what is known to be a dangerous activity (whether or not it dangerous "in and of itself".) Most programs, you may be surprised to know, DON'T require things like those or hitchhiking. Of course, most programs are designed by people who actually know something ABOUT leadership programs, and don't view the participants as DISPOSABLE. It was "designed" by people who didn't particularly care about-nor understand- the consequences to the people who had to try and live through them. It was CLAIMED to challenge and expand one's abilities. Much of it was "retake all the classes", or "go and run some pfal classes on the field" or "clean up the grounds", with some breaks for "go hitchhike over there" and some other things.

STILL works, as far as some people see it....

Now then, the conspiracy theories vpw got from the Liberty Lobby and from the John Birch Society. Here's from the page on the LL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Lobby "While Liberty Lobby was founded as a conservative political organization, Willis Carto was known to hold strongly anti-Semitic views, and to be a devotee of the writings of Francis Parker Yockey, who was one of a handful of esoteric post-WWII writers who revered Adolf Hitler. Yockey, writing under the pseudonym of Ulick Varange, wrote a book entitled Imperium, which Willis Carto adopted as his own guiding ideology. Many critics, including disgruntled former Carto associates as well as the Anti-Defamation League, have noted that Willis Carto, more than anybody else, was responsible for keeping organized anti-Semitism alive as a viable political movement during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, when it was otherwise completely discredited." "Liberty Lobby attempted to promote a public image of being a conservative anti-Communist group, along the lines of the John Birch Society, but while the John Birch Society rejected white supremacy and anti-Semitism, Liberty Lobby promoted them. Francis Parker Yockey's Imperium was republished by Willis Carto's Noontide Press, which also published a number of other books and pamphlets promoting a racialist and white supremacist world view, and Liberty Lobby in turn sold and promoted these books." "In 1975, Liberty Lobby began publishing a weekly newspaper called The Spotlight, which ran news and opinion articles with a very populist and anti-establishment slant on a variety of subjects, but gave little indication of being extreme-right or neo-Nazi. However, The Spotlight, critics charged, was intended as a subtle recruiting tool for the extreme right, using populist-sounding articles to attract people from all points on the political spectrum including liberals, moderates, and conservatives, and special-interest articles to attract people interested in such subjects as alternative medicine, while the newspaper subtly incorporated anti-Semitic and white racialist undertones in its articles, and carried advertisements in the classified section for openly neo-Nazi groups and books. The Spotlight for a while became the most widely-read periodical on the right in the United States, with circulation peaking around 200,000 in the early 1980s. While circulation experienced a steady drop after that, it continued to be published until Liberty Lobby's demise in 2001." And here's the John Birch Society, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society ... "The JBS claims that collectivist conspiracies throughout the world have significantly shaped history, and it seeks to expose and eliminate their claimed control in government in the modern era. This degree of conspiracism has isolated the Society from many other conservative groups." " "According to Welch," writes Political Research Associates in its analysis of the Birchers, "both the US and Soviet governments are controlled by the same furtive conspiratorial cabal of internationalists, greedy bankers, and corrupt politicians. If left unexposed, the traitors inside the US government would betray the country's sovereignty to the United Nations for a collectivist New World Order managed by a 'one-world socialist government.' The Birch Society incorporated many themes from pre-WWII rightist groups opposed to the New Deal, and had its base in the business nationalist sector…" Welch saw "collectivism" as the main threat to western civilization, and liberals as "secret communist traitors" who provide the cover for the gradual process of collectivism, with the ultimate goal of replacing the nations of western civilization with one-world socialist government. "There are many stages of welfarism, socialism, and collectivism in general," he wrote, "but communism is the ultimate state of them all, and they all lead inevitably in that direction." " "Much of the Society's early conspiracism, according to Political Research Associates, "reflects an ultraconservative business nationalist critique of business internationalists networked through groups such as the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). The CFR is viewed through a conspiracist lens as puppets of the Rockefeller family in a 1952 book by Joe McCarthy fan Emanuel M. Josephson, Rockefeller, 'Internationalist': The Man Who Misrules the World. In 1962 Dan Smoot's The Invisible Government added several other policy groups to the list of conspirators, including the Committee for Economic Development, the Advertising Council, the Atlantic Council (formerly the Atlantic Union Committee), the Business Advisory Council, and the Trilateral Commission. Smoot had worked at FBI headquarters in Washington, DC before leaving to establish an anticommunist newsletter, the Dan Smoot Report. The shift from countersubversion on behalf of the FBI to countersubversion in the private sector was an easy one. The basic thesis was the same. In Smoot's concluding chapter, he wrote, 'Somewhere at the top of the pyramid in the invisible government are a few sinister people who know exactly what they are doing: They want America to become part of a worldwide socialist dictatorship, under the control of the Kremlin.'" Birchers elaborated on an earlier Illuminati/Freemason conspiracy theory, imagining "an unbroken ideologically driven conspiracy linking the Illuminati, the French Revolution, the rise of Marxism and Communism, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the United Nations". Unlike most advocates of the Illuminati-Freemason conspiracy theory, however, the Birch Society strenuously denies harboring any anti-Semitic ideation, and indeed claims many Jews among its membership. At one point a key leader in the JBS, Revilo P. Oliver, resigend after a dispute over his veering off into antisemitic conspiracy theories in public. " " In October 1964, the Idaho Statesman newspaper expressed concern about what it called an "ominous" increase in JBS-led "ultra-right" radio and television broadcasts, which it said then numbered 7,000 weekly and cost an estimated $10 million annually. "By virtue of saturation tactics used, radical, reactionary propaganda is producing an impact even on large numbers of people who, themselves, are in no sense extremists or sympathetic to extremist views," declared a Statesman editorial. "When day after day they hear distortions of fact and sinister charges against persons or groups, often emanating from organizations with conspicuously respectable sounding names, it is no wonder that the result is: Confusion on some important public issues; stimulation of latent prejudices; creation of suspicion, fear and mistrust in relation not only to their representatives in government, but even in relation to their neighbors.” "

Ok, for those of us who were not flower children, and those of us who could use a refresher, 1967-1968 seems to have been a big year for the hippie movement- at least for the public news reports of them. It's also when vpw acted on information. I pulled this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie "Time and history revisionists have obscured the true origins and influence of the hippies, whose roots stretch back 100 years to Europe. Around the turn of the century (1890s), there was an active movement in Europe to return to the natural life away from the polluted, crowded cities. This movement was inspired by authors like Friedrich Nietzsche, Goethe, Hermann Hesse (Siddhartha), and Eduard Baltzer, who wrote about how modern man’s material yearnings were taking us away from our balance with nature and leading to spiritual and physical diseases. Thousands of young Germans turned their backs on modern society and sought a return to nature and the pagan spiritual life of their ancestors. They embraced a variety of radical lifestyles including vegetarianism, fasting, raw food diets, nudism, organic farming, communal living, sun and nature worship, etc. These ideas were introduced into the US over several decades as one by one these Germans settled in various places around the country," "With their emphasis on Free Love, hippies promoted many of the same counterculture beliefs that found early expresssion in the Beat Generation. Both Beats and Hippies advocated for legal and societal acceptance of most forms of consensual sexual expression outside the traditional bounds of marriage and procreation, with the notable exception of sex with children." "In fact, hippie domestic life seemed largely to default to traditional gender roles, with women doing most of the work -- cooking, cleaning, child care, etc. -- while the men engaged in creative, artistic pursuits. Images of women in hippie art abound, generally as innocents, goddesses or muses. Most hippie entrepreneurs, philosophers, commune founders and leaders, writers and artists were men." "At their inception, the back to the land movement, cooperative business enterprises, alternative energy, free press movement, and organic farming were all politically motivated hippie enterprises." "Hippies tended to travel light and were able to pick up and go to wherever the action was at any given time, whether that was a "love-in" on Mount Tamalpais near San Francisco, a demonstration against the Vietnam War in Berkeley, one of Ken Kesey's "Acid Tests" or just because the "vibe" wasn't right and a change of scene was desired. Pre-planning was eschewed and most were happy to put a few clothes in a backpack, stick out their thumbs and hitchhike to just about anywhere. Hippies seldom worried about whether or not they had money, hotel reservations or any of the standard accoutrements of travel. Because most hippie households welcomed overnight guests on an impromptu basis, the reciprocal nature of the lifestyle permitted enormous freedom of movement. People generally co-operated to meet each other's needs in ways that became less common after 1971. This way of life is still seen today among some Rainbow Family participants." From the "characteristics" section, I found this... "# Free love, including open relationships and most consensual forms of sexual expression, except sex with children. Traditional legal constructs and religious teachings that prohibited non-procreative sex outside the bounds of marriage were widely flouted--premarital sex, extramarital sex, bisexuality and homosexuality. (See also: Sexual revolution). # Communal living # A fondness for nudity" Now then, on their "free love" page, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_love ), I found this.... "While the phrase "free love" is often associated with promiscuity in the popular imagination, especially in reference to the counterculture of the 1960s and 1970s, historically the free love movement has not advocated multiple sexual partners. Rather, it has argued that love relations which are freely entered into should not be regulated by law. Thus, free love practice may include long-term monogamous relationships or even celibacy, but would not include institutional forms of polygamy such as a king and his concubines." Interesting how vpw skipped this stage. Perhaps he was just a victim of his times... Then again, "The history of free love is entwined with the history of feminism." "Some feminists of the late 20th century would interpret the free love ethic of the 1960s and 1970s as a manipulative strategy against a women's ability to say no to sex." "Free love became a prominent phrase used by and about the new social movements and counterculture of the 1960s and 1970s, typified by the Summer of Love in 1967 and the slogan "make love not war". Unrestrained sexuality became a new norm in some of these youth movements, leading certain feminists to critique the 60s/70s "free love" as a way for men to pressure women into sex; women who said "no" could be characterized as prudish and uptight."

This spun off the 1976 discussion, since I didn't want to derail the memories. It looks like some policies were the results of some things hippies were already doing in the late 60s/ early 70s. It looks like some policies were the results of some ideas conspiracy theorists were putting forth. It looks like some policies were just because they saved money or allowed pervs to satisfy their sexual jollies in any of a number of ways. So, a thread to discuss them all. What practices existed, and what were the most likely reasons FOR those practices?

In case it was missed, QT made this post a page back.

Technically correct, it was (almost always) a choice. You could choose to risk life and limb (and break the law) and hitchhike, or you could pack your bags and go home. But let's not oversimplify the situation.... IF you chose the second option- "pack your bags and go home", you were FIRST subjected to a face-melting session from AT LEAST ONE supposed "leader" of twi, who equated you with the scum at the bottom of the pond, for "turning your back on God" (refusing to risk your life and break the law by hitchhiking) and be given one more chance to avoid the disapproval of GOD ALMIGHTY, the entire leadership-especially lcm, vpw, etc, the entire staff-who will be told you were weak, scum, etc., and "your spiritual partners" (people like Oldiesman who would give you crap for not risking your life and breaking the law at their say-so) and to change your mind. If you elected NOT to do this even after the emotional abuse, then you better pack fast, because you're off the grounds immediately, and it's up to you to figure out how to get somewhere else, let alone where to go. Of course, people who were kicked out of the corps (because that amounts to being kicked out) suffer emotional trauma-which was the idea, after all, with the screaming session. At least one committed suicide for it. But the suicide, technically speaking, IS a choice. One is not forced to commit suicide just because one is made to feel like they've disappointed God Almighty and are fit only for death. That IS a choice. Nobody here, as far as I saw, ever said those were not choices. Pretending we DID say that is neither honest nor honorable. Not that this qualifies as news. Technically, that IS a choice. It's a horribly-slanted choice, and it's presented as if one means life, and one means a living DEATH- which is how they wanted it seen- but that IS a choice. You COULD choose to be made a pariah, an outcast, worthy to be trampled underfoot and not even worthy to eat dog food. That was ALWAYS a choice. For MOST people, anyway. Of course, T*m M NEVER had that choice for him and his wife- since lcm insisted on keeping HER on grounds because she made a dandy sex-slave. Small wonder why T*m M made the CHOICE to scream about it in public, how he could not "compete" with lcm, and why T*m M made the CHOICE to pick up a pistol and blow his brains out. All of those were choices, too.

Victim Mentality Propaganda has 2 meanings. 1) A process used to impede healing after one had been victimized by a perpetrator. 2) a label invoked to protect a perpetrator when someone's attempting to expose him- take the emphasis and the 'heat' off the criminal by blaming the victim. In this case, it's the label. Nobody's portrayed "everyone" as vpw's victims,and nobody's portrayed "everyone" as helpless. Therefore your label lacks merit. However, blanket terms like "everyone" are fairly reliable indicators that the speaker is busy making a blanket accusation rather than seeking to find the truth or convey the truth. Since I've never condemned "all that is twi", this claim lacks merit. Since I operate coldly and without hatred, the second claim lacks merit. And calling someone exposing crimes of twi "corrupt" while hiding the felonies of the criminals is more than mildly ironic.

Correct.

No, the concealment of evil thoughts and evil ways is intricately tied into your own defense mechanisms for that which you yourself saw and did, therefore you will NEVER see it because you work so hard at NOT seeing it. This is your own personal bias. Which means so much to the people who were leaned on into GOING corps....Some of them went in, some of them endured the squeeze. Even lcm had this pulled on him! (He documented it HIMSELF!) That rascal manufactured anything is DEFINITELY a lie. It's not a mistake due to misinformation- it was a deliberate attempt to change the subject by ADDING misinformation. Therefore, an INTENTIONAL lie.

The corps were REQUIRED to hitchhike. Even after vpw was aware that women were raped. Even after people DIED. vpw HIMSELF made people hitchhike. If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal.If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal. If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced. If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow. If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps. What if you didn't go corps? Well, then the subject is dropped-today. Tomorrow it will come up again. And the next day. Some people were treated badly because they refused. Some were left alone after. Oldiesman refuses to admit some were treated badly because they refused. Did he NEVER see it, or was this "selective vision"? It happened either way-the only difference is in one case, OM was never around when it happened, and in other cases, he went out of his way to block it out of his mind when it happened right in front of his face. If that's true, then OM, in his own way, was just as much a victim as others- since his psyche was twisted into shapes it should not have taken, all as a coping mechanism to deal with evil men doing evil things. Of course, if that's true, he was a victim THEN, but now has chosen to perpetuate the cycle of abuse by inflicting inappropriate coping mechanisms on others. Then again, he just may have missed it all, and is using a different set of coping mechanisms to block CURRENT information ONLY. I don't know what VMP is, but I'm vehemently opposed to categorical whitewashing and excusing of vpw for what he did-and had others do.

"These were the times of "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" "GOD'S Smuggler" ,"Thirteenth Tribe", etc. It seemed as though we had moved on from seeing spirituality on a personal level (PFAL, Challenging Counterfeit, CF&S,etc. ) to seeing it on a national and even global level. Of course this sure made us all feel somewhat smug because we thought we were really seeing "The BIG Picture"." " We also had a food co-op which was mandatory . We bought in bulk, Made alot of our own items such as yogurt, mayo., familia and so on. we cooked the same preplanned meals in each house and ate as a whole group every day. These were the same communal living, survivalist type activities that were being experimented with in many other groups beside twi." Good questions. In fact, I'm spinning off a new thread....

Probably the obvious one. I Peter 2:13. 12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. 13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

vpw himself was well aware it was dangerous. He knew this and blew it off. Don't believe me, I'm sure. I'm not sure I'd believe me either. Except I have him on tape volunteering his opinion on the subject. It's in the "Heart of the Way Corps" series. 7 tapes-he's the speaker on 2 of them. He brought up objections to hitchhiking in the program. He stressed that the hitchhiking is mandatory. Then he addressed concerns that had already been brought to his attention-he himself mentions that people had said that hitchhikers could be raped. (He specifies rape.) He blows it off completely-saying that they could be raped down in the valley near the program site (Green Valley? I'd need to check for the name he gave), and used that as an excuse to blow off concerns that they were being exposed to unacceptable risk. When I have time, I'll fetch out the tape and type out his exact words. As for LEAD, I'll accept that mandatory rock-climbing is a good idea right after ALL the top ministry people go thru the program. Anyone want to try to convince me that vpw himself climbed the rocks and hitchhiked? How about Howard Allen?

That would explain why he's so busy. Hasn't blown a trumpet in front of himself to be seen of men about it either. (Must not be why he's doing it.) Seemed ok a few days ago when I dashed him off a note. AFAIK, he is still READING here, even if he's not REPLYING here. Then again, he may just feel anything he was GOING to say in any thread was already SAID. Happens to me all the time.

I'll say what little I know-out of what little I'm willing to share. :) On the PLUS side, you have the chance to get to know about a person's attitudes and personality, with little or no consideration of looks, when beginning any friendship. Also on the plus side, those people who can be trusted are more likely to be more up-front and candid about themselves, for good or ill, when they don't have to look you in the eye. (Face-saving is almost instinctive in person, and harder to suppress.) So, you can learn early on what will NOT work, and what would be an "insurmountable obstacle." On the MINUS side, I'll add that-just because you've communicated with someone online for several months, AND met in person, is no guarantee that some devastating "secret" isn't lurking off-stage, ready to torpedo everything that looked unassailable. (Titanic, meet iceberg.) That's true of relationships and friendships both. And I'd say I've a fair number of friends I've met online, and a number of acquaintances, and a greater number I've never met face-to-face yet. In conclusion, I'm reminded of something Aerosmith said concerning relationships: "'Falling' in love is hard on the knees."

I admire the way you jumped in and directly addressed the question, with no hint of evasion, nor attempt to confuse, deceive, or otherwise obfuscate the issue. That having been said, I wanted to make sure there was a record of the post, in case you had a second thought and edited. NOT that you known for doing this sort of thing-quite the opposite, IIRC. However, I wanted to eliminate any later possibility of "he said, she said". Having said that, I'll be leaving this alone for now. (Partly to allow others to speak first, partly because I like to encourage people being candid.)

Clicking this to the top again...

Johniam, since you joined the discussion (kinda, since your reminiscances weren't of twi), you're free to answer this one as well. "IS IT TEMPTING GOD TO PUT YOURSELF IN A DANGEROUS OR COMPROMISING POSITION WHEN IT WAS THE POLICY OF THE CORPS PROGRAM?" I believe TOTW is entitled to a simple or direct answer-one that actually addresses the question. (Something like a 'yes' or 'no', for example.) From either of you, whichever checks in first. Alternately, you may try the following answers. A) "I don't think hitchhiking qualifies as 'dangerous or compromising'." or B) "I think the dangerous hitchhiking was not vpw's idea, so don't blame him!" or C) "I think vpw decided upon the dangerous hitchhiking, but he was unaware it was dangerous, so don't blame him!" Or you can pretend you didn't see the question. Or you can admit you saw it but refuse to answer it. Or you can obfuscate then pretend you answered it. You have plenty of options, there.

Great. The reason I asked is because you read it back in the early 1970s. I wanted to recommend reading it again now, with your current perspective. We discussed it here before, and I wanted to give you a fair chance to judge its contents again on your own, before recommending the thread where we dissected it. I think it would be more useful that way.

Any other recollections concerning 1976?

One question, alleycat- do you currently own a copy of TW:LiL? There's a reason I ask. And it's not the one you're thinking.

*checks* So it is. July 28 and everything. Almost New Moon.

MOST of us can.