WordWolf

Cynic, Just wanted to let you know that-if there was a reason you took us to that discussion- I for one didn't see it even with the bolding. Perhaps others did, but I doubt the majority of posters read it. Moreover, even I say there's a point beyond which a post is too long. If you really want to say something there, may I suggest trimming out a few pages not germane to the discussion, and "enable the help files"? I for one didn't see the main point as sufficiently supported. I doubt you meant "I'm right because the post is long", but it would be an easy conclusion to make, that this is what you meant to say. Finally, I'd bet money that the original questioner didn't get anything from it. Feel free to ignore my advice, but expect the more obvious results if so.

"Family International" is the new name for the group that called itself "Children of God." Here's an informational resource on them. http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Main_Page Now, HERE's some interesting reads... That organization said this: "In the latter part of the '70s and early '80s, [David Berg], responding in part to the sexual liberality of that time period, presented the possibility of trying out a more personal and intimate form of witnessing which became known as 'Flirty Fishing' or 'FFing'. In his Letters at that time, he offered the challenging proposal that since 'God is Love' (1 John 4:8), and His Son, Jesus, is the physical manifestation and embodiment of God's Love for humanity, then we as Christian recipients of that Love are in turn responsible to be living samples to others of God's great all-encompassing Love. Taking the Apostle Paul's writings literally, that saved Christians are 'dead to the Law [of Moses]' (Romans 7:4), through faith in Jesus, [berg] arrived at the rather shocking conclusion that Christians were therefore free through God's grace to go to great lengths to show the Love of God to others, even as far as meeting their sexual needs." And this: "Q: "What is FF'ing?" Many of you asked for a definition and what should be reported as actual FF'ing. A: We would like to answer that FF'ing is going out witnessing the love of Jesus with the serious intent to use sex or sex appeal as the bait, regardless of the situation or place. This can be anywhere!–On the street, in a park, while going to the local store, in discotheques or in clubs! Q: Does "Loved Sexually" also include kissing and light petting? A: We suggest you only include masturbation, sucking and actual intercourse in the figures of fish, mate, brother or sister loved sexually. It's all, or nothing at all! Hallelujah!" ========== "Escort Servicing (ESing) was a quick result of the introduction of The Family's Flirty Fishing (FFing) doctrine. Female members were told to "make it pay", and many became employed by escort agencies and/or massage services which were fronts for the sex industry. Working conditions and usually unwritten terms required by such agencies made it understood that an "employee" had to prostitute herself." ======= "After David Berg's infidellity with Karen Zerby, The Family International became sexually liberal in a drastic way. Berg's obsession with sex and deviant sexual taste is well documented (often by himself, as he published his fantasies with his mother, step-daughter, and nearly any female he knew). He also promoted sexual abuse by characterizing paraphilia, such as incest and pedophilia, as natural and merely running afoul of "man's laws". He supervized the sexual molestation of his son, Ricky Rodriguez, who ended up murdering one of his early caretakers and commiting suicide in 2005." As pretty as their official press releases look, it seems that BEHIND THE SCENES, they're very ugly and evil, and have amazing curtains of secrecy.

I did-I thought my post was informative and clear.

Here's a website or something. ================= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again "Born again is a term used primarily in the Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and Pentecostal branches of Protestant Christianity, where it is associated with salvation, conversion and spiritual rebirth. Outside of these circles, the term is often applied by extension to other phenomena, including a transcending personal experience — or the experience of being spiritually reborn as a "new" human being. Christian concepts To be born again in Christianity is synonymous with spiritual rebirth and, in many denominational traditions, salvation. The term is used somewhat differently in different Christian traditions. The Christian use of the term is derived from the third chapter of the Gospel of John, where Nicodemus visits Jesus: Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God." Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again." Nicodemus said to him, "How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." -John 3:1-5 (New Revised Standard Version) (Note that some translators consider "born from above" to be a better translation than "born again".) Most Christian denominations hold that a person must be born again in some sense in order to be a Christian, and thus that all who are true Christians are in fact born again, whether they describe themselves as such or not. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, considers that "Baptism is ... the sacrament by which we are born again of water and the Holy Ghost." , though the term is not frequently used by Catholics. This is also the belief held by Eastern Christianity, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism, among other Christian traditions. However, the term itself is most frequently used by Fundamentalist, Pentecostal, and Evangelical Protestants, where it is often associated with an intense conversion experience and an encounter of the individual with the power of God. Most "born-again Christians" believe that baptism is symbolic rather than sacramental. Many Christians who are "born again" in this sense deny that those without such an experience are true Christians. The idea of being born again carries with it the theological idea that a Christian is a new creation, given a fresh start by the action of God, freed from a sinful past life and able to begin a new life in relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit. John Wesley and Christians associated with early Methodism referred to the born again experience as "the New Birth". The Unity Church suggests that being born again is a continuous process that must be done repeatedly as one "dies" to old, ineffective ideas and redirects oneself toward Christ consciousness. In recent history, born again is a term that has been associated with evangelical renewal since the late 1960s, first in the United States and then later around the world. Associated perhaps initially with Jesus People and the Christian counterculture, born again came to refer to an intense conversion experience, and was increasingly used as a term to identify devout believers. By the mid 1970s, born again Christians were increasingly referred to in the mainstream media as part of the Born Again Movement. A 1976 book of that title by Watergate conspirator and convicted felon Charles Colson, describing his path to faith in conjunction with his criminal imprisonment, played a significant role in solidifying Born Again identity as a cultural construct in the U.S. The term was sufficiently prevalent that, during that year's Presidential campaign, Jimmy Carter described himself as born again, notably in the first Playboy magazine interview of a U.S. Presidential candidate." ========== As to whether or not "born again" should properly be translated "born from above", the word translated "again" there is "anothen" in the Greek, and that's translated "from above" in other places in the Bible, but not "again" in other places in the Bible. I'd say that argues it's better translated "from above" in all instances. The verses I think of would be (New American Standard) I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, I Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. As twi used it, someone "born again" is different in a substantive way. They WERE like everyone else since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, and thus only body and soul, neither of which is immortal, and both of which die. However, once born again, they were born of God's Spirit, and were now composed of body, soul AND spirit. I think that explanation is different from what the average Christian means when they say "born again."

That's 3 questions, not "another." pfal technically was 3 classes: Foundational, Intermediate, Advanced. Advanced was taught once or twice a year, at one or more permanent locales, as demand required, for 2 weeks at a time. Its prerequisites were the preceeding classes, completion of the "Home Studies" included in the foundational book, and an entrance exam you didn't take unless you were ready. Intermediate was taught locally once or more a year, usually every 6 months, for-was it 7 sessions? Its prerequisite was the foundational class. Foundational was taught locally once or more a year, usually as often as possible, every 3-4 months if possible. (All three levels have been replaced by lcm's "wap" class.) The prices varied widely depending on the day and time. Usually it was $50. You received 2 small textbooks, one syllabus/study guide that included the Home Studies and a space for the intermediate's syllabus. And a pamphlet called "Christians Should Be Prosperous", which was why you'd be expected to tithe- and it was REQUIRED reading as homework. At times, it went up to $100 and briefly to $200. It didn't stay there because few people could be talked into paying $200 for 12 sessions and those little books. Although I hear for $200 you got a few more little books. Sometimes someone claims the prices were to cover overhead. Meanwhile, vpw himself said it was paid for ahead of time. (It's in the book "the way:living in love.") Meanwhile, the tapes were re-used until they rotted, and the locals bore ALL expenses-location, multimedia, refreshments, etc. and all the money went to hq. Eventually, it came down to $40, which is still paying retail for the materials. (When the JWs bought their own stuff, they paid wholesale, not retail.) So, twi made a tidy profit on every student- who was also expected to tithe later (if not during the class.) So, the prices varied between $200 and $40, with $85 or $50 being common. The one bright spot is that-subject to space limitations- grads were able to retake foundational and intermediate classes for free at later times. Some rules were occasionally added-like making a committment to be at all sessions if you were going to attend. This was explained to me as helping to avoid distracting the new students. That's not an idle claim- when I took it, a lot of people were at Session 1, and tapered off for the next few sessions, and Session 12 was suddenly filled Standing Room Only, which WAS distracting. Were we required to take them? Well, no gun was put to our heads. However, those hesitating would face a continual media-blitz to convince them it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and in some places, they WERE told to cut loose people who were never interested in taking it. So, I'd say that we were "de facto" required to take them if not "de jure". What do they teach? pfal started with BG Leonard's class on "Gifts of the Holy Spirit", with JE Stiles' book on "the Gift of the Holy Spirit" added, and much material from EW Bullinger on how to understand the Bible, and Session 1 was loaded with "positive thinking"/magic of believing/Word-Faith stuff. So, the 12 sessions were effectively divided into thirds: Introduction, "Law" of believing, how to read and understand the Bible Pentecost, Salvation, the first Century Church the Holy Spirit How much detail are you hoping for?

Only if it's twi leadership that's being blindly followed. It's wrong to blindly follow anyone else. twi leadership gets a free pass because they taught Teh Werd. <_< In Wayworld, that's an admired goal. In ex-wayworld, some 'countries' consider that a proud tradition. And a source of nostalgia. "Wasn't it wonderful back when we lemmings followed leadership off that cliff that one time and demonstrated our great believing?..." :blink:

More quotes... *looks up movie* "See? Now we ain't arrested." "I'm going with you. I can draw pretty fast. We can be famous--like the Dalton Brothers!" "They're famous--but they're just a little bit dead. They were hung!" "I know of him." "Would you be afraid of him?" "No. But you must be." "That's why people hire me. They're worried about someone, or scared." "Don't go jumping to any conclusions."

*grabs the chain at "Ewan MacGregor"* Revenge of the Sith Jimmy Smits Running Scared (1986)

Actually, as Raf has said in the past, it was JBarrax's discussions and analyses of twi material that preceeded his, and gave him the idea for his own work. Not that this takes anything away from Raf's own accomplishments. Fascinating.

*watches the catcher for the signals* *shakes off the first 3* From the Hip John Hurt King Ralph

On the other hand, in some areas, ROA pretty much cleared out the twi people for a week. I've had a Branch meeting at an ROA that was about Branch-sized. And the whole thing of people meeting in "their twigs" meant it was expected that enough people from home were visiting that they could run a small meeting. (Although it was also said you could just find one meeting anywhere if yours wasn't in attendance.) So, it averages out to roughly 50/50. Which means we agree it's "about right."

Stripes Ivan Reitman Ghostbusters 2

Carl Smuda: "Yes! the big Big BIG difference between JW's and TWI is SONSHIP RIGHTS. The very heart of the revelation given to Paul the Apostle is only to the 144,000 from the book of Revelations. Only the 144,000 can eat the bread and drink the wine at their annual communion. Manifestations of the Spirit? Fruit of the Spirit? Walking by the Spirit? Dying-and-Rising with Christ? Body-of-Christ? As far as I could tell, the very best of the very best from the Church Epistles is only describing "the anointed" which to the JW teachings is the 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes listed in Revelations." Noni: "Interesting if thats true I never heard of it.I must not have been paying attention.Typical of me though.I heard the 144,000 thing my whole life and never knew that." Revelation 7:1-8, New American Standard. " 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." 4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed." 12 tribes (all named) multiplied by 12000 sealed from each equals 144,000. It's the ONLY mention of 144,000 in the Bible as a number of any kind.

Not in any way to try to take anything from Sunesis' posts (which summarize things marvellously, IMHO), but one last thought occurred to me which I felt emphasized the guarantee of utter failure for this concept. You've got kids who want to try to "fix" twi. So, they're making arrangements, plans and deals COVERTLY in the hopes that the WayGB and the bod don't catch them and come down on them like a falling safe. They think things could be better. (Things can ALWAYS be improved.) So they have to plan SECRETLY to introduce God's blessings. Let's say you've got someone who thinks a website and message-forums could be improved. He doesn't have the talents to really transform them, and lacks the knowledge to speak authoritatively. He rolls up his sleeves and gets to simple posts and trying to find the information and organize the information that's already there. Nobody stops him. Eventually, a few people start to think of him as someone who's making a positive difference there, and knows stuff. Which he does know, eventually. Having compared those 2 side-by-side, I can see one is a healthy setup, and one is NOT a healthy setup. I think comparing the two makes it baldly obvious for just about everyone else, too. Ultimately, though, I think Sunesis' answers said it all.

*looks it up* Sharon was right. Sharon's turn. Go, Sharon! :)

*looks up movie* Since LiftedUp's not here, and NOBODY's biting, I figured we could nudge this a little and add another quote from the movie... "See? Now we ain't arrested." "I'm going with you. I can draw pretty fast. We can be famous--like the Dalton Brothers!" "They're famous--but they're just a little bit dead. They were hung!"

Couldn't just link to Joey Pantoliano, could you..... *brain melts* Ok... Freejack (ha!) Jerry Hall Batman(1989) (Thought I was gonna snap and link back to Emilio, didn't you?)

"Weenie Roast". GSC term. An informal get-together for people of the GSC and anyone who feels like showing up with them, or without them if they were really inclined. The event includes a cookout, a general get-together and shooting the breeze. The event is notorious for lacking any required activities, mainstage teachings, witnessing assignments, or face-melting sessions.

6) You've been reading the threads in "About the Way." At the top of "About the Way" are 2 "sticky/pinned" threads. One is called "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe (a guide for new arrivals.)" http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913 It's designed so that new arrivals can get basic information without asking a stack of questions FIRST. (AFTER, it's perfectly fine to need lots of answers.) It gives a tour of all the places you'll want to look over and read. There's permanent documents, audio files, editorials and so on accessible from the Main Menu and Documents sections. It will take MONTHS to really do a complete read-through of all of them. I recommend even old-timers review them once a year as a refresher. (I review them 1-2 times a year myself, although I don't reread ALL the files and newspaper clippings each time.) It makes it easier to remember what's written where. As that sticky points out, the GREASESPOT 101 forum http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showforum=12 has some threads that are especially useful for new arrivals. Of particular utility for them would be the glossary of terms such as it is: "Way-speak and Greasespot-speak." http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4734 It's unorganized, and there's discussions running thru, and someone decided to throw in a stack of terms that were never used by either twi or the GSC (this place), but at the moment, it's the best one-stop-shop for an introduction to various concepts, practices, doctrines, names and so on connected with twi's past and present that exists. (Eventually, me or someone else will improve on it.) Feel free to ask more questions-but please at least review that glossary first. And don't be surprised when people point you to some of the documents and editorials when you ask more questions. Your honest questions are always welcome at the Greasespot Cafe.

Ok, I covered 1-3 so far.... 4) The purpose of going door-to-door was to SELL PFAL/WAP CLASSES. There were pep talks that said things about blessing the people and stuff, but the intent was to SELL foundational classes, pfal in the 70s/80s, wap in the 90s/00s. Why? Well, it was faster to sell a class, and the goals were more concrete. Supposedly, someone might want to stay in the group once they finished it. (Of course, it failed miserably with wap, since wap only worked with people who had a background in twi for a year or more, and didn't question lcm's poor explanations.) The MAIN reason it was to SELL CLASSES, though, was because selling classes meant selling seat in the class, which meant that twi made more money. (ALL TWI CLASSES WERE ORGANIZED AS PROFIT-MAKING VENTURES. TWI CLASSES WERE NEVER DESIGNED TO 'BREAK-EVEN' OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT AN OPTION.) So, if the person just paid for the class, then twi made a profit. If the person stuck around, they'd be leaned on to tithe, and twi makes 10% plus whatever else they could be squeezed for- lcm said 15% and the goal was 'everything beyond your immediate need', and there were always MORE classes and MORE books, and whenever "the bookstore" was run at an event, even items like concordances were priced retail after twi got a ministry discount, so twi ALWAYS made every penny they could. Oh, and don't ever think they PAID the people who ran "the bookstore" at events. Unless you were at hq at the permanent one, they were unpaid volunteers. Remember, your money is always welcome at the way. Sometimes, you are welcome to accompany it. (Ask me for more details later.) 5) Requirement for hours going door-to-door? The answer to that is pretty much the same as the answer to 3). Let me know if you need more info after rereading it.

I don't know how questions about twi don't end up in "about twi", but I'll give this a shot. 1) If you mean "infant water baptisms", no. twi taught/teaches that water is unnecessary, but a baptism in holy spirit IS necessary, and that requires no ritual. Occasionally, a parent may do some sort of "dedication" ceremony-declaring they will raise their child up according to the Lord/twi doctrine, but I haven't heard of that becoming common, standardized, or a requirement. (Then again, if it HAS, it would not surprise me.) 2) twi has always been fond of inflating their numbers. They've claimed over 100,000 people have been members, when perhaps, at most, 100,000 ever took their foundational classes-both verions. What that means is there were maybe 100,000 people who signed up for pfal and wap. Please note that many or most who took wap had taken pfal, but wap was mandatory sooner or later. Not everyone who signed up made it to Session 12, not everyone who made it to Session 1 completed Session 12. (That's using pfal Sessions, I don't know what the final session# was for wap.) And not everyone who completed pfal was there past 3 months or past 1 year. Using my own pfal class as a guesstimate, 250,000 of the people claimed were every actually attendees, and that was across the entire history of twi, not as attendees the entire time. (Many people who joined in the early 70s were gone by the mid-70s, and so on.) So, for "membership" at any one time, I'd say between 1/5 and 1/10 of that would be more accurate, meaning between 50,000 and 25,000 at their biggest. The best guesstimater I've ever heard was that 1/2 the current twi members attended ROA. (Although occasionally new people attended.) So, take the number of attendees in any year, double it, and you have the "membership" for that year. Attendance#s at ROA were consistent with attendance#s overall, proportionally, and I got the statistics to back it up. :) Someone once said that 24000 attended ROA '84, if only for a day or so, and that they figured worldwide attendance to be somewhere approaching 40,000 that year-their apex of membership. If we are being generous, I'll say 40,000 at the most, with 30,000 as the biggest possible US attendance, with the remainder across all other countries. That changed in the years between 1985-1990. vpw died in 1985, and he'd appointed lcm as his successor a few years before. lcm was unable to pull off the mysterious "I have a connection with God that you don't" thing vpw did. Around 1985, some leaders protested "difficulties" at the leadership level, and cg wrote up "passing of the patriarch." The next few years are what lcm himself called "the fog years", and ended in 1989, when lcm "drew a line in the sand" and demanded all twi people declare an oath of loyalty to him, and anyone who didn't wasn't welcome in twi anymore. That heavy-handed maneuver used to work when vpw used it on SMALL numbers of people in his "way corps" program, but when lcm tried it on a large scale at that place and time, it blew up in his face. A FEW people had split 1985-1987, but 80% of the group left 1989-1990. (ROA 1990 had fewer than 20% of the attendees ROA 1988 had.) Since then, the group has been hemmorhaging members. They have nothing with which to draw new people, and other Christians have more to offer their CURRENT members than they themselves do. The organization currently has 4 types of members: A) those in power who must keep the group together or face unemployment B) those inside so long they're terrified of the outside world and other Christians C) those kids who've been educated to be terrified of the outside world D) members who are looking for a good chance to leave. A number of years back, twi quoted ALL membership as 5000 worldwide. That included small children. The group is still in "negative population growth", but they went back to hiding their numbers. Based off a more recent meeting, and skipping those not old enough to take their classes, membership is somewhere closer to 1500 adults, possibly 2000 total members overall, but more likely less at present, and never likely to INCREASE. Numbers of losses can slow, but they won't REVERSE. So, membership peaked in 1984 at approximately 40,000 worldwide. Membership as of 2006 is probably about 1,500 worldwide. With numbers being hidden by twi whenever possible. 3) Door-to-door.... There apparently was a short, aborted program to "sell" pfal door-to-door in the 1970s. Most people don't remember that, since even those "in" at the time often heard nothing about it. In the 1990s, after more than 80% of the members had left, lcm tried lots of things to increase the amount of money coming in, and to increase numbers. (He'd chased off most of the people-and most of their tithing, more importantly.) One of them was requiring door-to-door in some areas. Further, at some points, all the corps grads in state were called in for a statewide ("limbwide") meeting. When they arrived, they were paired off and told to go door-to-door. At some points, wows (one-year committments to go "sell pfal") would go door-to-door. That was more often than other people doing it. So, there's different types of people to answer this, thus, different answers. I AM aware that the 1990s under lcm was a period of INCREDIBLE legalism and anal-retentive record-taking and rules-following were richly rewarded and wildly encouraged. During that time-period, I would be VERY shocked if each person wasn't required to keep records. I do know someone said they were told to keep track of what blocks they'd covered before, so they'd skip them next time.

I was asked about a formal discussion on this sort of thing. vpw and lcm ridiculed other Christians for THEIR ceremonies, then turned around and made their OWN. What ceremonies do you remember, when did they happen, and what happened at them?

How did I become in charge of answering all the questions? :blink:

Please keep the articles up, whether there, here, or somewhere else easy to find. They're a valuable resource. (And TWI really, really wants you to take them down.:) )

GrouchoJr, 8/3/06, 5:24pm, the "Hippies, conspiracy" thread.