WordWolf

It's called "MASKS", and yes it is. For some reason, I have a lot of trouble keeping interest whenever it airs. But it's your turn.

"I want you to start a new piece... I'd like you to sculpt... music." "Music? Counselor. Music is a collection of acoustic vibrations. How can I reproduce a sound with clay?" "Think of the effects that sounds have on people... the images that music brings to your mind... then give them a form." "Worf said he's going to be teaching us some Mok'bara throwing techniques today." "More like falling techniques...the last time we did that I was sore for a week." "What's this?" "I have no idea." "Maybe Will left it here... a little present?" "It's not quite his style." "Then maybe you've got a secret admirer." "They must be changing the snacks around here." "I don't recognize it. " "Well, whatever you do, don't put it in your mouth...... ....This is terrible." "I like it." "Then you can have it.. but it's not what I ordered." "Let's see what they're trying to 'poison you' with... Wait a minute... this stuff is bio-organic... there are oxygenated cells... serum electrolytes... This looks like some kind of... blood." "You're joking." "I'm serious." "I'm gonna have a little talk with the bartender." "It might not be his fault. We should check out the replicator." "If this really is an archive from some ancient civilization, we should allow it to do so. But we must be careful..." "This 'library' seems designed to do far more than simply store information. Who knows how much we could learn from it?" "I've seen these things all over the ship. They all look the same... primitive and non-functional." "Ceremonial... and deceptively primitive. Only an advanced technological culture could have built that object out there. These artifacts must have played a ritualistic role in their society." "Masaka is waking." " I'm not "Masaka", Captain...I am Ihat."

"I want you to start a new piece... I'd like you to sculpt... music." "Music? Counselor. Music is a collection of acoustic vibrations. How can I reproduce a sound with clay?" "Think of the effects that sounds have on people... the images that music brings to your mind... then give them a form." "Worf said he's going to be teaching us some Mok'bara throwing techniques today." "More like falling techniques...the last time we did that I was sore for a week." "What's this?" "I have no idea." "Maybe Will left it here... a little present?" "It's not quite his style." "Then maybe you've got a secret admirer." "They must be changing the snacks around here." "I don't recognize it. " "Well, whatever you do, don't put it in your mouth...... ....This is terrible." "I like it." "Then you can have it.. but it's not what I ordered." "Let's see what they're trying to 'poison you' with... Wait a minute... this stuff is bio-organic... there are oxygenated cells... serum electrolytes... This looks like some kind of... blood." "You're joking." "I'm serious." "I'm gonna have a little talk with the bartender." "It might not be his fault. We should check out the replicator." "If this really is an archive from some ancient civilization, we should allow it to do so. But we must be careful..." "This 'library' seems designed to do far more than simply store information. Who knows how much we could learn from it?"

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories....9646&EDATE= "NEW YORK, March 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Scholastic Inc., the global children's publishing and media company, announced today that all 12 million copies of the U.S. edition of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows will be printed on paper that contains a minimum of 30% post-consumer waste (pcw) fiber. Moreover, 65% of the 16,700 tons of paper used in the U.S. first printing will be certified by the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC), the global standard-setter for responsible forest management. This historic commitment is the largest purchase of FSC certified paper to be used in the printing of a single book title. In addition, the company announced that the deluxe edition of the book (100,000 copies) will be printed on text paper that is FSC certified and contains 100% post-consumer waste fiber. All jackets will be FSC certified and contain 30% post consumer waste and will be manufactured using energy generated from wind power. For future printings of all books in the Harry Potter series, Scholastic plans to use paper with a minimum content of 30% pcw, and that is FSC certified when available. The vast amount of paper needed to print 12 million copies of the 784-page Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows makes the decision by Scholastic to invest in environmentally preferable paper a significant step in the company's ongoing commitment to responsible environmental stewardship. " That's 784 pages for Book 7.

Orange Book, pg-29-31. ========= "Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore, hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus, wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day." So, we have vpw himself praying for the woman, and she was delivered. Within 24 hours, there was a crowd looking for healing. And they were non-believers, Hindus, who all just happened to hear about this, and believed it such that they showed up in a crowd. Could have happened. Presuming he prayed and she was delivered. "They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered." I'm unsure of Hindu beliefs in India enough to know if this is typical. "Just before the train on which we were traveling moved out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side, ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." " Supposing this is true, there was a crowd, and the majority of the people would have been low-caste. The high-caste guy was willing to shove his way through a crowd of low-caste people, and thus being in physical contact with them, to shove through them and get to the front of the group, on the chance that this guy could help him. Forgive me, I can't picture this guy having the strength to shove through-unless he could use both arms. "What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him, "Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ. When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little, he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said, "Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." " So, God was fine with this healing. And it was instant. And vpw was preaching from the back of the train. And allowed to stand there-WITH A CROWD SURROUNDING THE BACK OF THE TRAIN- while the train prepared to move. And he was allowed to be in physical contact with someone on the ground as the train is moving forward. I just don't think the trains in India are run that badly. It's too cinematic. The only thing we're missing is the train whistle and sunlight breaking out from the clouds. "At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India, the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's Word. " And a guy in the train was able to see what happened completely in the back of the train, with his own eyes. And had influence in ALL OF INDIA. And gave vpw a standing invitation to come minister and teach in ALL OF INDIA. And gave him the keys to New Delhi based entirely on an incident NOT in New Delhi. And vpw remembered all this, but never followed up in India despite having an open door. This sounds scripted to me. And not scripted WELL, either. The only hitch is the existence of some photos I've never seen, which depict an incident I've never heard described well.

Orange Book, pg-29-31. ========= Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore, hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus, wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day. They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered. Just before the train on which we were travelling moved out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side, ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him, "Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ. When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little, he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said, "Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India, the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's Word. ===============

Let's see. What happened now. http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...1601131,00.html "Procter & Gamble Co. has won a jury award of $19.25 million in a civil lawsuit filed against four former Amway distributors accused of spreading false rumors linking the company to Satanism to advance their own business." etc. (Read either link for the whole story.) Of course, the thing was an urban legend from the beginning. http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/procter.asp And a lot of urban legends concerning Satanism, One World Order, occultism, and all sorts of related things were passed along as part of the curriculum. I'm fairly certain twi passed this one along, too.

Why do the posters at the GSC tell the stories they do- stories about vpw, twi, and so on, and Momentus, ces/stfi and so on?

I'm not asking "how do we define 'grossly unfit'?" Suppose we're hearing about a leader in a Christian organization. He could have embezzled the funds, visited prostitutes, raped and murdered his congregation, (adults, teens or children) all of the above, or other things I didn't mention. Once determining he/she is unfit, what should be done? Forgive him and leave him in office? Remove him from office?

That's why I try to confine myself to songs released before 1986. Very few people here have even HEARD songs that rhyme with "umpty." (They were unable to identify Fiona Apple's hit "Criminal", so I've adjusted my expectations.) Please re-select and post again.

"I want you to start a new piece... I'd like you to sculpt... music." "Music? Counselor. Music is a collection of acoustic vibrations. How can I reproduce a sound with clay?" "Think of the effects that sounds have on people... the images that music brings to your mind... then give them a form." "Worf said he's going to be teaching us some Mok'bara throwing techniques today." "More like falling techniques...the last time we did that I was sore for a week." "What's this?" "I have no idea." "Maybe Will left it here... a little present?" "It's not quite his style." "Then maybe you've got a secret admirer." "They must be changing the snacks around here." "I don't recognize it. " "Well, whatever you do, don't put it in your mouth...... ....This is terrible." "I like it." "Then you can have it.. but it's not what I ordered." "Let's see what they're trying to 'poison you' with... Wait a minute... this stuff is bio-organic... there are oxygenated cells... serum electrolytes... This looks like some kind of... blood." "You're joking." "I'm serious." "I'm gonna have a little talk with the bartender." "It might not be his fault. We should check out the replicator."

Correct. Your hunch is 1/2 right.

Harry's family, well, the tail wagged the dog here. JKR needed his family gone, so, they died from some normal reason like illness. James Potter's parents were on a bit in years before he was born, and he was an only child, so he got all their money. As to Ron's family, I think you're right about there being not enough time to include EVERYTHING. Besides, it is not their story. There's a lot that we might want to see that's not in there. (Like the US. Other than a sentence in Book 4, and a few teams in "Quidditch Through the Ages", the US is outside the scope of the series.)

On the one hand, yes, Ollivander gave specifics as to the wand and the wizard. On the other hand, we've seen wands swapped, and the users seemed to do just fine. The jury's out on that one. Trevor, though, has been labouring under SOMETHING. There's been speculations that-like Bertha Jorkins (mentioned in Book 4) and Percy's boss (in Book 4), he's been fiddled with magickally, and that's why his memory leaks like a sieve in the early books. (See also the Muggle who runs the campsite for the Quidditch World Cup, also in Book 4.) Like Merope, he has been bullied (by Snape, if no one else.) He's also had Gran waiting for him to become the next Merlin. That's enough for "performance anxiety" right there. He first started to come into his own with the DA's sessions in Book 5. There's more to be seen from him in Book 7, I'd say...

"I want you to start a new piece... I'd like you to sculpt... music." "Music? Counselor. Music is a collection of acoustic vibrations. How can I reproduce a sound with clay?" "Think of the effects that sounds have on people... the images that music brings to your mind... then give them a form." "Worf said he's going to be teaching us some Mok'bara throwing techniques today." "More like falling techniques...the last time we did that I was sore for a week." "What's this?" "I have no idea." "Maybe Will left it here... a little present?" "It's not quite his style." "Then maybe you've got a secret admirer."

Oh. THAT one. I never saw it.... Just how many movies had those two acting in it, BTW?

Here's what I know. HCW has posted that he's seen photos from the Jubbulpore incident, and Mrs W herself pointed out that guy. HCW has said he's seen 2 photos, one with the arm seemingly injured and useless, one with the arm raised, seemingly healthy and ready for normal use. As to what Mrs W knows, we can't ask her now. As to what HCW knows, you will have to ask him. Please note that he has appeared a bit sensitive on discussing the subject of what the photos show, and what they mean, at one point. (He may or may not be sensitive on the subject now.) So, I would phrase my questions a bit carefully. Now, even if the account HCW was given was correct in every particular, (that's the man, that's the healing, vpw performed the healing), it still contradicts vpw's account of the incident, since vpw's account, if photographed, would require a photographer snapping pictures right next to vpw, who just happened to snap those right at that moment, and managed not to get thrown off the back of a train (presuming both are allowed to STAND on the back of a moving train, movies notwithstanding) while NEITHER hand is used for support, since they're on the camera. vpw's account was that he was on the back of the train, and had this exchange and the prayer seconds before the train pulled out, and the healing happened just as the engine engaged, so that the arm was now instantly healed and raised while vpw was pulling away in the train, making his parting comment. Oh, so cinematic. Someone mentioned that a scene in the film "Young Mr Lincoln" looks EXACTLY like this one. Beyond that, I can't say. Was there an actual healing under all the bs, less cinematic? Did Mrs W see a healing there when it happened? Did the pictures show exactly that? Maybe. And unless someone knows more (they saw the pictures, they were there), that's as far as they can honestly say.

Ok, let's see, a new episode.... Ok, got one.... "I want you to start a new piece... I'd like you to sculpt... music." "Music? Counselor. Music is a collection of acoustic vibrations. How can I reproduce a sound with clay?" "Think of the effects that sounds have on people... the images that music brings to your mind... then give them a form."

Hm. This sounds like when the Enterprise was the first ship to find those previous-century Klingons, who thought the Federation was still at war with the Klingons. I'm trying to remember the title, but I keep getting it confused with some others.

Funny how some songs just pop up like that. I never saw "Little House", but I saw a few episodes of the Andy Griffith Show, and Opie was singing that song once.

Opinions differ on that one. There's allusions that are not precise forensic matches, and THAT's what I'm claiming that was. *rolls eyes*Well, obviously he wasn't the HBP. However, mentions of him and where he keeps hopping off and has to be found keep popping up at peculiar times and locations. Apparently they really WERE coincidences- but a peculiar SET of coincidences. After the "Mark Evans fiasco", we're aware that sometimes there ARE innocent coincidences in the books that have NO other meaning. 1) Not enough time-I expect we'll hear about that at the end of Book 7, presuming they both survive. (Remember, the last chapter will be an Epilogue and "whatever happened to...") 2) Eh, whatever. Didn't feel anything either way. 3) The Dursleys, as JKR said, really crushed his curiousity. I would have asked a LOT more questions. Then again, I'm more like a thoughtful Ravenclaw than a brash Gryffindor. 4) I liked the way Voldy did not appear, but was felt nonetheless. 5) Book 7, of course, will have more to say on this. 6) The Dept of Mysteries studies the great mysteries, the big questions, like Time, the Mind, Space, Death, and Love. Ron was damaged by a "think-tank", obviously. :) I personally wanted to hear any reference to the experience later, however. He was exposed to raw thoughts, and my opinion is that it was a VERY traumatic or watershed experience, even with that potion being administered as an antidote. Doesn't he still have scars from that, physical if not mental?

It will fail miserably. First of all, the growth the FIRST time had almost NOTHING to do with vpw. It had EVERYTHING to do with the Jesus People movement and REAL Christians like J1m D00p, St3v3 H33fn3r, and the others. The youth of the time were ready to hear, and the young leaders of the time demonstrated God's Love and God's Power. Without those 2 things, 99.5% or more of us never would have heard of vpw or twi. Second of all, in the Information Age, it's FAR too easy to find all the problems with twi. Hiding them can't work anymore. And the "followers" can communicate freely with each other, moreso than in twi's heyday. Can't just make people "vanish" anymore. Third of all, many modern churches ARE doing their jobs, and BETTER than twi. twi has little that is more practical, or more resonating, or more useful, or more ingenious, or otherwise "better" than is already out there. The people who came in when they were young probably forgot that vpw warmed himself at fires he didn't build. The people who grew up in twi never had a chance to learn that. So, misinformation is welcome at The Way.

Ok, let's see.... As I see it, Estimated Prophet A) thinks whenever I object to his POSTS, I'm objecting to HIM B) forgiveness of the brethren equals letting them continue harming people without consequence C) confronting evil=bad. Exposing wrongs=bad. Dismissing them =good. The reasons I say this follow, and proceed from the latest post, 3:05pm eastern 3/18. BTW, he seems to be a fan of the word "vile." When I said his position was one of lulling the conscience and going about one's own business rather than act, he referred to that and said "What justifies your vile words towards me Mr Wordwolf? How is that different from the motives that justified all the physical and verbal abuse that you are so outraged at CES for inflicting on people?" There's the "vile" thing, and my words were HARDLY strong ones. Oddly, he can't distinguish between my posts and the screaming sessions of Momentus nor the social stigmatizing of people in ces/stfi- the stuff that killed marriages and humiliated people, in other words, what I'm objecting to. Most people CAN. If one's thinking remains black-and-white, distinguishing between the two is harder. EP also thinks that action NOW-only after a public outcry has FORCED THEIR HAND- qualifies as saying JAL was on top of things all the time. When I said "In other words, John Lynn himself was well aware of the evils in twi (and is now oblivious to evils in ces/stfi even when specifics are brought to him by people who know better), and you consider the evils done by vpw himself, lcm and the trained cadre under vpw as INSIGNIFICANT." he responded with "How can you say John is oblivious when his letter admonished Mark G for missing the mark?" Well, EP, it's because he was ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH for several years of this happening, even to the degree that they interfered to some degree with his own marriage, and saw no need to take action until FORCED TO. I call that "being oblivious." If a traffic cop let traffic zoom past him, running red lights, and there came a public outcry because there were crashes at his post and people crippled, and THEN he got tough with traffic, most people would consider that "BAD." ===== As to what I consider are more serious issues, we disagree greatly. When it comes to the public outcry that FORCED CHANGE, EP would have preferred no one ever spoke up, and no change to have been wrought! "Also, I never said the evils done were insignificant. I simply don't care to focus on that crap." "And you still fail to demonstrate how your attack upon me is any different than the attacks you are so outraged at CES for doing upon insubordinates." Well, EP, I criticized your posts. You put them in public, I disagreed vocally and soundly. I confined myself to their subject, substance and presentation. In ces/stfi, people claimed to speak for God, and declared how people were to live their lives, and savaged the reputations of anyone who didn't fall in line. Most people can distinguish between the two. "They also esteem my 'comprehension skills' in low degree. They've never called me "vile" ." Neither have I-I've criticized your POSTS, and considered the positions that justify them as terrible things, but other than your comprehension skills, I've not criticized YOU. Failing to distinguish between the two justifies my comment that your "comprehension skills" aren't up to scratch. BTW, I made THAT comment when I answered your question, and you immediately asked it a second time. "Would you approve of me reacting to your insults by knocking you on the head with a baseball bat? SHAME on YOU. Is that the instruction in righteosness that your superior comperehension skills have determined?" See, EP, that's black-and-white thinking in action again. You're lumping ALL negative reactions together- be they valid criticisms, public face-to-face humiliations, and physical violence. 1) You weren't insulted, except by the one comment about reading comprehension- which seems, BTW, to have been borne out by the evidence. All the other comments were perfectly valid criticisms, which you are free to discuss rather than dismiss as "insults" -which of course is easier.... 2) You introduced physical violence as a legitimate response to an insult, then attempted to claim that was MY idea. That's poor "debating", let alone "discussing". Then said that was wrong of me to do- "shame on you." But you put those words in my mouth. Shame on YOU for doing so. Can't you face what I REALLY said? Are you only able to address a poor distortion of it? That's the famous "strawman" of debating, as many here know. I expected better than that of you, EP, but at least you're capable of SOME outrage. You don't have a heart of stone. Now all you have to do is correctly identify what should be WORTHY of outrage and direct it THERE. ========== When EP claimed that the evils performed by vpw were not significant, I responded with a laundry list off the top of my head of evils he performed, all of which were dismissed by EP with an offhand comment. I said you considered all of that INSIGNIFICANT. EP replied "NO Sir. But you are now making the bizarre distortions." Actually, EP, that's hardly a distortion when you yourself said "All that evil is fairly minimal when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W. Likewise John L." You said "FAIRLY MINIMAL." I said "INSIGNIFICANT." That's not "distorting." That's "saying what you didn't want to hear." You replied "...I am in no way de-valuing anyone's life." However, when you claim their hurts (and deaths) were "fairly minimal", you ARE de-valuing them, whether you mean to or not. "I simply ask that you extend the same courtesy towards John Lynn. God grants him mercy. Why don't you?" As I understand it, God's mercy extended towards Jeffrey Dahmer, who sat in prison. I agree with God's mercy, and I agree that he should have sat in prison. I consider your position to be one that confuses forgiveness with inaction, where all possible consequences, all amends, are eliminated, and those shown incompetent for any office are permitted to retain them indefinitely, with a pat on the head and an injunction to do right. I do NOT think Christians are called to do that. Forgive, yes. Permit injustices? Never. I even gave Scriptural documentation of my position. All I'm saying is that lives are saved by Jesus Christ dieing on the Cross in order to redeem them." I agree, and consider that a NON-ISSUE as to actually addressing wrongs of leaders in office. I say God expects us to use our brains and our consciences while we are here. When I pointed out that "you appear remarkably ill-informed as to the proven doctrinal errors in twi at the pen of vpw, and the practical errors he did and taught were perfectly acceptable (if you were in the inner cadre)" you replied "No, I've never been in the inner cadre except for three years as a Twig Coordinator." Let me rephrase that. Those in the inner cadre were taught these performed evils were perfectly acceptable. As to the proven doctrinal errors, almost everyone here knows about them, because that information is easy to find. We've discussed them HERE. Plenty of times. So, you appear remarkably ill-informed on many subjects concerning the errors vpw taught, and the many acts he performed which the Bible roundly condemns (as well as many that it would have had these crimes been current 2000 years ago, and match the pattern of what it DOES condemn). ====================== Here's our two positions reflected nicely. I said "...to the degree that the entire package of twi- excepting the permissiveness and policies I objected to- were all ripped off from other Christians. The entire pfal class was taken straight from the works of other Christians- Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger- with vpw's name added and their names removed. All the early twi books were taken directly from the books of other Christians- with vpw's name added and their names removed. All the later twi books were the work of twi research people- with vpw's name added and their names never mentioned- and not even mentioned by category (as in "the research dept worked on this".)" You replied "Remarkably, I am aware of most of that. It is outrageous that VP actaully behaved so poorly. I simply approve of the ability VPW had to Teach the Word and cause it to live in people's hearts. And I give God the Glory for that." Somehow, I see in this pious answer the same response you gave to the evils vpw did in destroying lives and treating humans like merchandise-because he wanted to. He gets a free pass because God forgave him, and he taught some good Word, and so those he crushed should just move on with their lives, it's really not so bad, suffering now, since we face glory in the future.... Let's ignore the evils he did, since we should be focusing on godly things. Let's never discuss the lives he crushed, since we look to higher ground. If your higher ground, your more noble plane of spirituality, requires I turn a blind eye to the suffering of others, and permit leaders to perform any act with impunity, then I don't want any part of it. I don't want to live there, I could not live there, and I don't see Paul the Apostle or JESUS CHRIST living there, either. Both of them SPOKE UP and MADE CHANGES where they were able. When I said "you seem determined to make THE SAME MISTAKE and give John L a free pass. People's lives were ruined? Some had breakdowns? Some were destroyed by Momentus, "personal prophecies", and ridicule from the pulpit? Oh, that's not important- he's teaching the Doctrine I respect! Ignore the lost and damaged lives. In conclusion, you're reflecting a position of "I got mine-who cares if you suffer?" All the pious posting on the internet can't wipe away a callous heart, nor excuse it." You replied "And what justifies the insults you continue to slap on me?" I say none of that was an insult-it reflects accurately your posts and positions. You WANT JAL to get a free pass. The ruined lives DON'T MATTER when it comes to his office. The reason IS the Doctrine. The damaged lives ARE to be ignored. All of that was phrased piously. And it's callous. You may not LIKE that this is how the average person would see your position, including the average Christian, but that's how it looks from outside of yourself. I noticed that you objected to- without addressing it- my comments that "Lives are STILL being sacrificed at the whims of leadership, and other lives are GLOSSING THAT OVER. I consider that SPIRITUAL DARKNESS. You may consider that something else- like "excusable" or "crap" or "minimal". Jesus cares about ALL Christians- not just the leaders- and would NEVER allow the one lost sheep to be cast aside. He makes sure the lost sheep is found." You agreed to the LAST part, but later objected to what I said once divorcing it from its context. "So calling my heart "calloused" and my words "vile" and I reflect "spiritual darkness" is not an exageration ?" Let's see. Practical response to wrongs being committed? Gloss it over, and soundly condemn those objecting to the suffering. Many would call that "callous" regardless of the context. Yes, I know, you've said you didn't like what Elizabeth suffered. Bravo. You can FEEL. But....................... .......................what does one do when she's on your doorstep? Does one simply give a nurturing speech, feel her pain, then send her home and tell her to do nothing, and leave it to God to handle? Or does one actually advocate DOING SOMETHING before someone else gets hurt? Your recommendations-based on all posts and objections- sound like they'd be the former, while mine would be the latter. (Not that there's no place for healing for her heart, but I would not leave the situation with ONLY that done.) As to claims that what was said was "vile" and "spiritual darkness", well, I explained those before. Giving a free pass to vpw- the rapist, thief, and committer of other crimes- because he can teach a great sermon- most people would call that "vile". Burying the problems to protect a sermonizer who's doing great sermons- most people would call that "dark"- to say the least. Perhaps you can't see that at all. Perhaps you can ONLY see a world divided into healing and nurturing and evil and darkness, and righteous action doesn't exist in your worldview. If that's the case, nothing I can say will make a difference to you. I'm speaking a language to which you don't know the vocabulary. ========================= We DID agree at one point. When I said, "Seems the strength of the meaning of the verses is on the Christian being responsible for NOT SINNING." you replied "I absolutely agree." Personally, I don't see how we can agree on that, based on the posts preceeding this, but I'll accept that at face value. We agree the Christian is supposed to NOT SIN. Then you asked what's probably the question that lies at the crux of our disagreements.... "So what shall be done with the people who do sin?" I think that's worth an entire separate discussion. For now, I say "Hold them responsible for criminal acts they perform, and for carrying out their offices properly. Those who show incompetence in offices should be removed from them so as to minimize harm to the brethren/humanity, those who perform criminal acts should face the legal consequences. Mercy within the legal system is possible, and should be weighed carefully with the public good, and the specifics of the case." It seems you're unlikely to agree with me here. What would your version of that paragraph look like?

*wild swing* "DISASTER"?