WordWolf

For those playing along, I posted this (I'm adding emphasis to point out what WTH seems unable to read): WTH, demonstrating the consistency with which he's approached the evidence of the Holocaust, replied-quoting that in its entirety, as follows: So, apparently, Arthur Butz, Bradley Smith, etc, are all posters on the GSC, since WTH replied to my comments-which were specifically flagged to refer ONLY to the GSC in case someone was skimming or lacked the wit to contextualize properly- by saying they applied to these people. Somehow, they have how magically become posters on the GSC as I specified. == Again, he responded to my with his own Apparently, when I specified this wasn't an equation ("I'm NOT saying every vpw defender is a Holocaust denier"), WTH "fully realized" I was saying it WAS an equation ("Every Holocaust denier = a VPW defender.") Since I never made it, that's little problem of mine. It's the problem of the imaginary poster whom WTH supposedly "fully realizes". Somehow, he's reading a post that specifies each Holocaust denier around the world defends vpw, despite the posts actually specifying otherwise- A) the connection is only between posters on the GSC] B) the connection does not equal an equation, since there's no equivalence (it doesn't apply in both directions) If he's looking at the evidence the Holocaust happened the same way he can read "this only applies to posters at the GSC" and translate that as "this applies to everyone around the world" and read "I'm not saying this" and translate that as "I'm saying this", then there's small wonder that he can view piles of evidence for something, and still miss that there was any strong evidence in it. This is the kind of "logic" in play when one is denying the Holocaust happened, as we can all see. (Scroll up and see it for yourselves, those posts are from a few hours ago.) ====== Oh, and the irony of the mentally-blind calling the mentally-sighted people "deaf" is just too funny.....

Does that mean you're currently undecided, and cannot honestly say your convictions point distinctly at either direction at this moment? (That's what it sounds like, so I'd like to clarify.)

Let's see.... if you're not on dialup, then something's wrong. If you're on dialup, that's STILL way too slow. I'd see about editing the picture down a little, and seeing if that helps. IIRC, about 1/2 an hour is the timeframe for about SIX GIANT DIGITAL pictures to load up to most online photo galleries on DIALUP speeds. So, a GIANT DIGITAL picture should be less than 15 minutes. I doubt your image there is QUITE that "big" (both in size and in density of image, which both affect the size of the file, and it's the overall filesize that affects the upload speed.) Maybe you should try Imageshack. ======== Then again, maybe you can email it to someone on staff here or something, since this website HAS A PHOTO GALLERY. I don't know how it works, but this site hosts the images.

Oldies, for now I'm leaving alone that you skipped HALF my statement- that a link is demonstrated- to deny the existence of a link without refuting the demonstration- because I'd like to give you a chance to set the record straight on your current thinking. So, Oldiesman, do you believe that over 100,000 or millions of people, some of them Jews, were imprisoned during World War II by the Nazis and under the order of their command (Hitler and the boys), and thousands or more of them were killed BY the Nazis at that time? Or, do you believe that the branded numbers in the skin of people, the recovered video, photos, the confessions, the eyewitness accounts from all sides, and the sites recovered, do you believe they were all invented in some sort of grand conspiracy to frame the Nazis for attempted genocide and mass-murder of prisoners? Or, do you refuse to say either way what you think?

Ah, you can host it on an external website (like Photobucket or Imageshack), and post a link to it here. Or you can shrink the image using Photoshop or the GIMP or something, but I think we'd be better served with the full-size image. (Or you can use them to trim out the borders, or both.)

I'm still curious why there are people who keep saying that vpw was neither anti-Semetic, nor pro-Nazi in any way, and never taught along those lines, and yet the only times we EVER see ANYONE denying the millions of Jews and non-Jews imprisoned and killed for the "crimes" of being different by Nazi Germany during World War II, these are people who are enthusiasts of vpw, and feel the need to defend both the public image of vpw and the public image of Holocaust denial. Is this connection supposed to be accidental? I'm not saying every vpw defender is a Holocaust denier, but it seems that every Holocaust denier (on the GSC) is a vpw defender. (I expect there may be some vpw defenders who are NOT Holocaust deniers, but there don't seem to be any GSC Holocaust deniers who are NOT vpw defenders.)

WTH then QUOTED Belle's question, and went on for several paragraphs, coming nowhere close to her question in actually addressing it. All the bombastic BS was to draw attention away from his refusal to answer the question, and pretend he actually addressed it. Just in case you were wondering. I can read his bombastic bs lightning-quick.

Catchphrases ARE among Figures of Speech, so long as they're addressed to the community that uses them. At least, Bullinger listed them as so, and twi did as well-there were even 3 different books on it from Pillai- "Light Through an Eastern Window" "Orientalisms of the Bible" volumes 1 and 2. As a figure, one wanted to analyze it, this specific phrase is "synecdoche", where the parts are placed for the whole. That is, to name all of humanity, you name 2 extremes and imply everything between them is included. So long as it's not overthought and considered for what it is, it's not a problem. Remember when vpw was explaining about the potential for life? He went into a short digression on Humpty Dumpty. During that explanation, he explained that Humpty Dumpty was an egg, an egg that a chicken laid "WITHOUT ANY STRESS OR STRAIN". It was an expression, meant to sound clever, not a literal post-analysis of the laying of the egg. I imagine a number of eggs are laid WITH stress, or at least STRAIN. So, when considering what vpw said about "sinner and saint alike", one should consider that the Orange Book, at least some of the time, rendered it as "Christian and non-Christian", and consider THAT the technically-accurate phrase. Of course, there WILL be people out there who will probably come up with a doctrine for why it says ONE thing in ONE place, and the deep, spiritual significance of saying the OTHER thing in ANOTHER place. I can't do anything about those people, but they're not taking part in this discussion, so it's not] exactly any stress or strain on me.

I think I can agree with this, pending any possible permutations taking a hard left into the wilderness. (I'm just being cautious. On the face of it, this sounds like I can agree.)

You made no exception whatsoever. We addressed WHAT YOU BROUGHT UP and did not pretend you hold positions you don't. You just tossed that in and PRETENDED there's no connection with you saying that- in MORE THAN ONE POST- and any posts you're responding to. I'm well-read enough to know when someone's trying to INSINUATE a connection between two things. I'm aware they make that Holocaust deniers make that claim of their own. I'm also aware the evidence doesn't support their claim. Furthermore, one of the major issues, I've noticed, you've been ducking. That is, do you believe SOME Jews were exterminated by Hitler and his Nazis during World War II, whether that was 100,000 or 1 million or some other number, or are you claiming there was no concerted effort to round up and kill Jews and other minorities in Germany during World War II by Nazis as directed by Hitler? Personally, I think your persistent refusal to address this from ANY angle is quite telling. If you DID believe that SOME were killed but the numbers were inflated, you'd sound less nonsensical to the average poster, and stand to gain by posting it. If you believe that there was NO such effort, then you only stand to look silly in the face of all the photographic evidence, eyewitness accounts, and confessions from people who were there in one form or another, so you stand to lose by posting THAT. Therefore, ignoring this perfectly reasonable question, and changing the subject, is quite telling on its own. After all, we didn't presume you held EITHER position, but you must hold ONE of them- since you've rejected "the accounts everyone ELSE hold as accurate ARE accurate". Ok, so are you saying that there WAS no roundup of Jews and other minorities in Nazi Germany AT ALL, let alone executions of them for being minorities of their particular sort? Or are you just intending to prevaricate and pretend you said "yes" or "no" whenever it suits your whims? That's not intellectually honest....... .......which hardly comes as news....

The problem with that is, this "when he said 'sinner and saint alike' he meant Christians both times" thing completely ignores what he said other times- in the Orange Book, this phrase is written, at least part of the time- as "Christian and nonChristian alike". Therefore, he CLEARLY meant sinner as non-Christian, and saint as Christian, and claiming he meant otherwise is demonstrably incorrect.

Hello, zarko. I'll try to fill in a few blanks for you. (I shall also sum up, so this isn't comprehensive, just the main points.) Back when vpw was a minister with a congregation, he was always looking for something bigger-he had ambition. What he DIDN'T have was something bigger- talent to match his ambition. That changed the first time in the early 1950s when-in the space of one year- he got Stiles' book on the holy spirit, and Leonard's class on "Gifts of the Spirit." By reteaching Leonard's class and claiming it was entirely his own, and retyping Stiles' book and claiming it was entirely his own, he began having success more along the lines of what he wanted. It changed at second time in the late 60s when he travelled to the House of Acts- a bunch of hippie Christians operating in the Haight-Ashbury area of San Francisco. He succeeded in convincing a few of them that he had something special to offer (true) that was unique to him (false-it was the work of others.) It was once he had these Christians working for him that twi took off. vpw had been trying for something since the early 50s, but he now had the right people under him who could expand the organization. He sent them out to both coasts to grow the ministry as much as possible, as Way East and Way West. Once these were grown to a "self-propagating" point, vpw announced he was taking over what were effectively THEIR ministries- the East and West- and all leadership was to come directly from him, and all moneys collected were to go directly to his hq in Ohio, with none of it staying locally. Somewhere in there (early 70s), Peter Wade cut ties with vpw. That was the time it was EASIEST to see vpw evidencing power-hunger. We could get into an analysis of the way corps for further discussion along those lines if you want.

I wish he was stopping closer to me-I'd seriously consider a little travelling to see him in person.

When they're being VERY pushy, there's ways and ways of getting THEM to decide to leave. Back when I was in twi, I remember one twi'er exploting their aversion to speaking in tongues- he got one to run away. Me, back in twi, I used them for Bible practice. I'd listen to them begin on a subject, then we'd go to a different book and address the same subject. (At a reasonable pace.) I did that partly for my OWN practice (I think that understanding ALL the books is a laudable goal, and the more, the better), and partly to test how well they knew verses outside their own approach. I disdain relying SOLELY on knowing ONE approach with ONE passage. If that's all you know, you're not ready to play with the big boys. Read up, and try again in 3-6 months to a year. It was also a measure of their poise to see how well they dealt with the unexpected. (Pretty well, mostly.) Anyway, I got some practice and some entertainment in, and I think they learned something as well. This approach may not work as well if your locals aren't up to this caliber.

There probably were nicer ways to phrase it, but overall, I don't think that was impolite in and of itself. It doesnt sound like they were rude, nor you. I've had a variety of experiences like that, some of which weren't so polite. But-they started. I was awakened from a nap some years ago by a ringing of my doorbell. (Early morning.) I went to the door, asked who it was, and the person deliberately mumbled, intentionally making it so I could not make out a response without opening the door. Obviously, their INTENTION was to force a conversation. Obviously, they didn't think through what type of conversation would result if they pulled a stunt like that. So, having heard the mumble, I looked through the security peephole to look at the person there. I saw a tie, and someone DODGE out of line of sight of the hole. Obviously, he was DETERMINED I receive no information about who was bothering me at my door before opening the door. So, I opened my door, visually confirmed who it was, then shut my door and locked it as he was opening his mouth. I now had all the information I needed, and-based on his actions, that's all the interaction I was interested in. I then went back to bed. I heard he stood there for several minutes, but I don't know why. ========= Another time, a guy tried a new, equally dishonest tactic. He said he was going around to encourage neighbors to read their Bible. I thanked him, and said I already did. His immediate response was "Well, many people SAY that..." (A bystander asked me afterwards "Did I hear him call you a liar?") Since he was challenging my reading of the Bible directly, I decided to accept his challenge....which should have been accompanied by a "dun-dunn-DUNNN!" in the soundtrack.... We then went all over the Bible in succession. He'd bring up a subject, and I'd take him to books he was unfamiliar with, and right to verses relevant to the subject. Hey, if he really WAS reading it all the time, he should be able to keep up.... He came back another time, and I told him directly that my specific disinterest in what he had to say was due to his previous words to me-which I quoted back, complete with context. I let him consider that for a moment, and formulate his response. Now, HAD HE accepted responsibility for his words, and apologized as an adult, I might have reconsidered-which is why I paused. (He was older than me, and should have SOME maturity.) His response was right out of some people's twi playbook of "never admit you're wrong." He began saying that IF he said such a thing, and continued with a further evasion. I pointed out exactly what I was thinking- HAD he accepted responsibility, I MIGHT have listened to him further, but it's clear to me that whatever I need to hear, he doesn't have within him. I think the person travelling with him got the lesson, whether or not he did. No, not everyone is like that, but approaches of those kinds will receive what I deem to be responses appropriate to them.

My apologies. I was under the impression that cg had boiled the subject down to its essence, rather than leave all the artificial titles and unnecessary categories in place. I gave him more credit than he earned. My mistake.

THERE'S an ugly truth we all had to face....

Ok, get your GPS navigators ready, we're going to get lost now....] [Can anyone find ANY relevance to the last few paragraphs, concerning why WTH finds it necessary to deny the Holocaust? He really doesn't care about what happened to all those people, and if he has to claim it's fake to not care about them, he will, but in the meantime, he's just going to pretend you didn't ask him.

Bear in mind that the corps was presented as teaching to apply the Bible and serve God. As such, one should come to expect bullying to be rare and accidental, mis-steps by the one who bullied. This FICTION that the corps was supposed to be some sort of paramilitary organization where Christians were sent through some sort of Boot Camp and were expected to be some sort of soldier/athlete Christian is not reflected in anything anyone was handed before joining, nor part of what they signed, nor in the official comments made verbally for those interested. It was supposed to be some sort of Christian education-partly in the classroom, partly outside the classroom by doing, but an education overall. That's one reason why the "graduates" got a DIPLOMA at the conclusion. If the corps was supposed to be some sort of military training, then it was an INCREDIBLY poor model of one- partly because vpw designed it, and vpw's knowledge of the military came second-hand AT BEST, and primarily from movies and television like many of us have seen- but we at least admit we don't really know about it. If it HAD been based on some sort of military model- and not a CHRISTIAN EDUCATION model, (which would have been news to most of the students, especially the Family Corps who never planned to take their families into military training) then-at most- the opening few weeks should have been when any high-pressure activities took place. However, based on what I've heard from people actually IN the military- the bullying is seen in MOVIES and possibly when applying for elite units like Navy Seals, Special Forces, etc, and is not seen in actual training, neither during a normal tour, nor in boot camp. It's more like Sergeant Hulka in "Stripes"- where he tells the men they're going to learn how to do everything the army's way, and he's going to be their instructor. This whole "yell-at-the-trainee" stuff is reserved for when a trainee does something SPECIFIC and STUPID. (For example, when a trainee at the firing range stands up, and carelessly points his rifle at someone, with live ammo in the gun. THAT's worth yelling over- and he got yelled at over it.) Movies show sergeants screaming at cadets, calling them worthless, and commercials show sergeants yelling at length over a small ketchup stain on an undershirt. That's FICTION, not reality. However, vpw really didn't seem to have anything more substantial than that sort of cinematic background when considering additions to the program that were supposedly "military". That's CARELESS, and IMPROPER PREPARATION on his part. He should have been FAR better prepared when proposing a multi-year training program. If one HAS TO "take some bullying" and "hard knocks", one may not have the right PROGRAM. Criticism-of PRODUCTIVE KINDS- are healthy parts of ANY training program, no matter how inconsequential the program. (Trainees at fast-food restaurants receive constructive criticism as well.) The disciples were beaten by the religious authorities of their day, and rejoiced to be counted worthy to suffer in Christ's name. Didn't mean the beatings were correct. Their attitude was healthy- but they were responding to something UNhealthy, and UNgodly-but dressed up as something godly. After all. "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" makes a dandy rationalization for "I yell because I care" and "I yell because you can take it", but of those three sayings, all three are from vpw, and NONE of the three are FROM SCRIPTURE. The first one, "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" bears a resemblance to "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger", which of course is from Frederich Neitzche, the same man who said "God is dead." Neither of those, of course, appear in Scripture, either.

[This doctrine was in need of an overhaul- so much so that when cg-who virtually worshipped vpw at the time he wrote this- worked on this subject, he completely overhauled the categories, reducing them from 5 categories to 2 easy-to-follow categories: 1) believing-trusting information received-from whatever source- and acting on it. A verb. 2) "The right way of believing", which makes it the canon of doctrine we are to follow. In short, a noun. THIS makes sense. The pfal one added categories where none were needed. I shall clarify.]

It WAS disappointing. It was also EXPECTED and MANDATED by vpw, who-as can be seen in your OWN story- demanded his positions be embraced whether or not they were understood. Someone had the guts to ask a question that SHOULD have been asked all the time- and vpw punished him for it. Then again, vpw's position-as came up on another thread- was that, in his OWN WORDS, "...So, when I teach, I expect people to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid."

http://www.google.com put the name of the series in quotation marks, and the word "quotes" in quotation marks, and you should find at least one good site with some more quotes from the show. Usually they're pretty accurate-at least, sites like IMdb and wikiquote tend to have more accurate ones, as do some others.

Ok, it's been long enough. This was "Starship Down", which bore a resemblance to "Disaster" in that it was about the main ship being damaged and the crew managing along. A Kareeman businessman caught Quark cheating him, and Quark kept trying to convert him to gambling and to taking risks-and part of that was when they had to disarm a Jem'hadar torpedo. Kira tried to keep an injured Sisko conscious by telling him a folk tale. (According to Phil Farrand, that tale is a local tale in the Philippines.) Bashir and Jadzia were trapped in a room for a short time, and had a candid talk while they were. My main recollections of the episode were of Worf and Miles O'Brien. Worf needed to adjust his style of barking specific orders to the engineers' style of being given a problem and figuring out the specifics themselves. That's him telling them "I need a weapon" and them working out how to give him one with 1/2 the systems damaged or not working right in that atmosphere. My most vivid memory related to one of the quotes. Right after a major announcement of using an "active" scan-one that generates a "ping" that others can detect, giving away your own position- they said they'd need to alter course completely immediately after each "ping"-since their position was given away. Of course, the ship then proceeds to stay CONSTANT after each "ping". And, of course, the Jem'hadar said "thanks for telling us where you are" and shot the heck out of them while I was calling them idiots for not changing. I really am baffled what that was about in the episode. I mean, the explanation was so obvious, and they FORGOT to do the best thing to keep them un-shot? Anyway, whoever's got a quote can go next- whoever it is. This would be a GREAT chance for a lurker to take a turn. A quote from ANY episode from ANY Star Trek series. (Although some of us are spotty on our Voyager and Enterprise stuff.)

Brother, you're thinking of God as an incredible human, rather than a transcendant being. Mark 2:27-28 (New American Standard Bible) 27Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28"So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Remember, God communicates in a manner that fits our little brains, even if it's not the most technically-accurate manner of explaining something. Jesus-who knows what he's talking about-said outright that the Sabbath was made FOR MAN, not for God. God ordained a Sabbath for man to rest and to remember God. That wasn't because God needed it-it's because MAN needed it. God described Himself as resting once His labours were complete- not because He was tired, but because it was done-and because He was going to use this to explain why man was to have a Sabbath. I think God told us the right things to do because He WANTS us to do them-for our own benefit as well as other reasons. I think He's PROUD of us when we do them without him dragging us by the scruffs of our necks- but that He's not diminished even if we don't do it.

It's a shame that they had God confined in this little box and they consider Him only accessible to THEIR church. Please note that those young people are young (duh), and remember how wise you were at that age-you might have been in twi at the time, and convinced God was confined in a different little box and considered Him only accessible to YOUR church. Please also note that they were on their equivalent to the wow field, and so they were singleminded and persistent- which shows in how they answered your questions.