WordWolf

Ok, what are all these supposed lies you're claiming to have seen? Supposedly, there's a lot of it. Ever consider that some things are A) differences of opinion or B) things you don't know and actually uncomfortable truths? Maybe you're attributing malice AND lies where none exist. Then again, since you didn't get specific, it's not like we can address them- you made a vague claim. Can you get specific about some of these supposed "lying"? So, are you claiming that vpw didn't commit the crimes he's reported to have committed? The examples you cite suggest that- is that what you MEANT to say? If not, you used bad examples. If so, why not just say so outright rather than insinuate and imply what you mean? You know, when people aren't trying to accuse the victims of lying or wanting to be raped, we really don't discuss vpw's rapes. It's only when people keep trying to whitewash vpw's evil that these discussions take off. Further, you really don't know what we do when we are not logged in here. How do YOU know whose lives we make a difference in when we're logged off?

WordWolf: "Of course, as John already pointed out, this means this is hearsay. It may be that NONE of it is true, only REPORTED as true to you and others." WhiteDove: "Except for the documents that would be true as I indicated Couldn't agree more in fact that was my point all along on the PFAL thread see on every other topic as I also pointed out when non eyewitness accounts are brought up this is the reaction not documentable of course some subjects just leap out of that perimiter and don't followthe rules of logic. Of course using the same standard you are calling me a liar Wordwolf and trashing my story. " So, except for the documents you didn't see, this is hearsay, meaning, this is what cg told you, which IS what I said, which you somehow took offense over. "Of course using the same standard you are calling me a liar Wordwolf and trashing my story." No, now you're using poor reading skills and inventing offenses where there are none. cg told you "this is what happened" and didn't show you signed documents. I pointed out "of course, you haven't seen the documents, so this is only reporting that cg told you this, and there's no guarantee he told you the truth." You interpreted that into "WhiteDove's lying" rather than "WhiteDove is truthfully reporting this is what he was told", which IS what I said. I also didn't trash your story- I only pointed out its obvious limitation- that you can only report what you know-which is that cg made these specific comments. Why you take offense at a simple statement of fact is beyond me. Please stop reacting to what ISN'T there.

I'm not sure if that qualifies as breach of a verbal contract, but we were ALL told that- I know I was, and so was everyone in my neighborhood.

Technically, that is correct. However, the discussion has travelled far afield of a simple list like you mentioned. If you don't mind such a listing being hard to find and hard to sift, by all means, consider this the thread to use. Personally, I would want that discussion to have its own thread. It's not like there's a fee for starting new threads. But that's me.

IIRC, PW left when he saw which way the wind was blowing. (He didn't elaborate very much when he posted here.) Correction: Wolfie didn't leave cg around 1987. He was on-grounds at Gartmore House in 1989, and was working translation with at least one Advanced class. He was also the assistant coordinator of that class. Say what you will, he was dedicated- while the Berlin Wall was falling, he was running a class outside of Germany. Whether that dedication was properly placed is a seperate discussion.

Just a clarification: Those people vpw was willing to listen to- those people chose to keep silence or to partake in the evil deeds. There WERE those who confronted vpw and others about the evil. vpw's response was to kick them out, ostracize them, and savage their reputations so no one would listen to them, and try to shatter their self-esteem so they would remain silent. That's been pretty established- it happened to more than a few women.

I for one won't argue against that one, mainly because I can see it from Scripture. Forgiveness may be DIFFICULT, but that does not make forgiveness WRONG. ==== Having established that (in your mind and mine, at any rate), there was a SECOND issue, besides "simple" forgiveness. What's your current thinking on the OTHER issue raised?

This subject has come up again...

For the late arrivals, here's a few links on plagiarism. I'll spare the exposition for now, but reserve the option to include it should it prove necessary. The sites speak for themselves, and some people prefer I post shorter, even when it's direct quotes. http://www.turnitin.com/research_site/e_wh...plagiarism.html http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm http://www.turnitin.com/research_site/e_faqs.html

We've had threads on that long ago, but feel free to start a new one on the subject- we're probably overdue.

My experience was much the same. Since NY State went with Gartmore when the 1989 split came down, you would have fit rightin locally here. I went to Gartmore, too.

That's true on every messageboard, and it's especially true here.

I've heard that's true for a number of people who took it in the 70s. In the 80s, that was the exception rather than the rule. EVERYBODY I knew was sold on pfal- and dedicated to selling OTHER people on taking it. Legally, that is true. Theft is theft, regardless of the motivation, mind-set and so on.I agree with you entirely on that. Mind you, there's some people who insist-or at least have insisted in the past- that plagiarism in pfal was perfectly acceptable since God wanted vpw to break the law and do so. You've missed some interesting discussions on that one, but they're still around if you want to dig. (I wouldn't, but hey, you might be curious.) The MINDSET of the people who copied those classes was certainly not to steal or to defraud. That does not excuse copyright violations, but it may mitigate somewhat- in court, it would affect the amount recovered in a lawsuit, in the court of public opinion, they were trying to bless people and do what God wanted. You decide if that makes any difference in viewing how they performed in breaking the law. (I can argue that it should, and I can argue that it shouldn't.) Either way, it is a crime. My understanding is that twi would have to have sent-or at least have released- a copy of the entire class to the Library of Congress. While it's possible vpw may have sent a copy of the Orange Book and/or the White Book to them for inclusion, for him to have even allowed a set of the tapes to end up there strikes me as completely opposite to his policies concerning the tapes- as was pointed out earlier in this thread. Whether that was because only a "proper" sitting of the class is sufficient to reap the benefits, or because he wanted their money, that's open to opinion.

Actually, you're adamant in ignoring SOME of what I posted, and are quoting PART of what I posted to draw an incorrect conclusion. You know, there's been a LOT posted about plagiarism on this messageboard, including many links to messageboards by people in the legal profession or literary professions where their abilities to determine what is legal use and what is NOT legal use is critical to their financial survival. I know, you arrived recently, and have not seen these threads recently. I shall take that into account, and help you out. As someone just posted on another thread, twi actually DID sue over this, quite a bit. They just didn't WIN. They kept this information under wraps, and didn't tell people. Standard polict for twi. Furthermore, you seem to have this bad habit of skipping every single time I've explained why suing-in this circumstance- doesn't work, even thought the crime of plagiarism has been committed. I have already posted the following- which you seem to have missed completely, on this thread: "When it comes to "why didn't they sue when he made it again under a new name", I'm not a copyright lawyer, and would guess that there is a murky ground there where his granted rights might grant him the rights to use the material. Thus, there was no point suing someone when they weren't going to win. At twi, it's currently all about the money. Follow the money." "Why wasn't cg sued? He held part of the copyright, so it was a crime, but the injured party can't sue him for damages, since HE held the legal rights, so LEGALLY, he was the injured party. That means that what he did was MORALLY wrong, and LEGALLY wrong, but no one could sue on behalf of society under current laws-they'd have to sue on behalf of the ones with the LEGAL rights, which he cleverly held. Legally, he's still required to cite sources, but I don't know how a lawsuit could proceed to force him to comply." "cg has failed to cite his sources, which, as I've pointed out plenty of times, including in this thread, is a legal requirement he is still bound by. For him to fail to do so-and he most assuredly failed to do so- is both illegal (even works in the public domain must be cited, if they are sources) and unethical (by appropriating the work of others and giving no source, he's saying "I did this" and hiding the actual sources. This is willful deception and a number of other things.) The main thing he's insulated from is lawsuits, since the main purpose of a lawsuit would be to RECOVER DAMAGES. Since he has legal rights over much of the source material in use, nobody can sue to RECOVER DAMAGES- there are no moneys to "return". Therefore, he can certainly be sued- at least on behalf of the public for where he failed to cite Bullinger's public domain materials, if under no other basis. However, lawsuits aren't cheap. They cost money, lots of money. Apparently, nobody with a lot of money cares enough to direct a lawsuit against cg for his actual breaking of the law- which is a felony when practiced at that level." "There's where your supposition lies- that piracy/breaking the law REQUIRES "making money with the intellectual property of twi." cg is engaging in FRAUD and PLAGIARISM, but the only parties that could sue are: -himself, holding part of the copyright -twi, holding part of the copyright -the public, holding the public domain rights on Bullinger's works. - Leonard's copyright holders He's not going to sue himself. twi can sue him, but can't recover damages since he holds part of the copyright. Therefore, they can waste tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars, only to pour them down a hole and never recover them. They're not THAT stupid. They also don't care about what's right enough to spend lots of money with no hope of recovering it. Now, the public could do so- but someone would have to be willing to sue on behalf of the public, and waste hundreds of thousands of dollars to get him to stop using Bullinger's works without citing the sources. Leonard elected to not sue vpw, and his copyright holders are unlikely to wrangle in court with similar results mentioned above. Court is EXPENSIVE. " Actually, it's time to put this obsessing over the word "piracy" out to pasture. First of all, the word I would use-and DO use- is PLAGIARISM, since that's a legal term and we can all see (whether we WISH to see) that vpw AND cg plagiarized. Second of all, the usage of "piracy" is legitimate. As I already posted.... "Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. "piracy:2 the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception, especially in infringement of a copyright." US law considers citing sources to be ALWAYS necessary in any usage of another's written works. Therefore, all usages where one fails to cite sources-whether through ignorance or through intent (whether you mean to, or are ignorant of the law is no excuse), you are using sources in an unauthorized fashion. cg's materials have always had a COPYRIGHT NOTICE on them- he's well aware of the basics of the law concerning this, in case someone wants to claim this qualifies as news. According to my collegiate dictionary (which is acceptable up through college, which is why it's a COLLEGIATE dictionary and is only exceeded by an UNABRIDGED dictionary), the term "piracy" IS CORRECT in this usage. Again, however, I don't see the reason for this obsession with ONE WORD Juedes used. (vpw uses a lot of plagiarized words, that's fine, cg uses a lot of plagiarized words, that's fine, Juedes uses a noun in a fashion you don't like, that's cause for outrage. THIS is considered healthy?)"

I'm putting all this together in one huge post for convenience of the reader. I'm reposting my twi timeline, which was the result of the entire "the way:living in wonderland" thread. Anyone wanting to see documentation for any item in the timeline, it's right in the thread, complete with discussions of each and every item. This is version 5.6, the last one I've done to date. (I really should get to a 6.0 version soon.) =============== This timeline is mostly from publications OF TWI. ========= Let's see. victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) According to locals, Ernst, his father, was an alcoholic with negligible education, with a bad temper who acted as a bully.This was true in his dealings with locals AND with his own family.Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. (It has been noted that this running off may have been as much to avoid an abusive father as it was to avoid doing any work. Or it may be unrelated.) He claimed that when he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. (He seems to have been taught this at home.)He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on thefamily farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). According to vpw, he and Mrs W married secretly while he was still in college. No reason for this was ever given. Victor suggested he played on his college's basketball team, and that after college he played on the professional team "the Sheboygan Redskins." His claim of each was phrased ambiguously ("I played basketball all through college" "I was involved in the Sheboygan Redskins") and the purpose seems to have been so that he was believed to have said he did both without actually making the claims. Later, he began making claims that he also "invented the hook shot" at this time. He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, with a Masters in Practical Theology. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claimed he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he met Rosal1nd R1nker. She was a former missionary to China and Korea. She's remembered as the anonymous person who asks vpw "Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which would teach Christians the HOW of a really victorious life?" This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) vpw did not discuss this event with anyone until he told the early corps-according to Mrs W. Thus, the earliest possible origin-point of this story is 1969, when the "zero corps" was begun. Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim- since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. vpw referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. October 3, 1942, vpw did his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. (Supposedly, the name "the Way" was in the documentation for this group since 1942.) In 1948, vpw was issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At some point, vpw began claiming that he took EVERY class Moody Bible School's Correspondence program issued. According to official records at Moody, vpw never turned in a single class of their correspondence school. This may mean he took classes and never finished ANY (which indicates laziness), or that he was lying about taking any of their classes. At one point, Rufus Moseley attempted to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrated an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visited missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw made another claim he was ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attended the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claimed he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He was further disillusioned about working for God. He then claimed a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL the evidence there NO blizzard whatsoever (and there was a WEALTH of evidence -at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. vpw has referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. (Many people currently feel that vpw completely made up the story that God spoke to him in 1942, and that his dependence upon this event plus the event at the Full Gospel Rally to establish his authority were both dressed up with made-up snowstorms to make them sound more spectacular. The specifics of both appear to support this position-especially since vpw was fond of increasing the magnitude of his claims in things as time went on.) Supposedly, a woman came up to him and told him that she knew a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw met with Stiles, and made a few chauvinistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles worked with him for a few hours nonstop, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In March, 1953, vpw found out about BG Leonard, and pushed his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard told him was closed, but permitted him to enter after vpw arrived. vpw took this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. (That second time was July 1953.) vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then ran the first of "his" Receiving the Holy Spirit Today classes, (October 1953) and took a photograph of that class. He told the students that this is "his" class called RtHST, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content had been directly lifted. The students had no reason to think he's lying. vpw sent the photograph to Leonard and told Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard took vpw at his word, and had no idea that vpw continued to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. That the classes were interchangeable in terms of material was the opinion of vpw himself- anyone who had graduated Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class was considered to be-by vpw- a graduate of "vpw's" RtHST class. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. He also renamed the class "Power For Abundant Living", rather than "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". vpw later made a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) It is often noted that the supposed 1942 promise claimed vpw would be taught-by God- things unknown since the First Century Christians, if vpw would teach others- yet ALL the material vpw taught was all taken from Leonard/Stiles/Bullinger/Kenyon and a few others, and thus, it was all KNOWN. Therefore, if a god gave vpw revelation in 1942, it was a god that lied, since vpw's source for everything was MAN and NEVER represented information lost since the First Century AD-not even once. In 1953, vpw also took JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changed a few words, and self-published it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." That it was the same year is no coincidence-it was the "original" textbook for the "original" class. ("Original" in the sense that they were the 1.0 version of his class, not that they originated at that time.) Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book. Among the changes was the deletion of a reference to an anonymous Christian who "put it together" for vpw (that was Stiles), who was missing by the 4th edition book, where vpw put it all together himself. vpw ran "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. Dr E.E. Higgins was one of the students in the October 1953 class. She's known as the anonymous person who would call vpw at night and ask what God showed him that day. In 1954, Dr Higgins first introduced vpw to EW Bullinger's books, and gave him his first copies of the Companion Bible, and "How to Enjoy the Bible." The contents of both these books later became integral parts of "vpw's" class. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on"Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW left JP with family for the next year or so, and took his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime.(1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He was irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, he there met Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invited to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields ran from 1955-1956, and included stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 was when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India."(According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returned to Van Wert. He cut his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and took "his" PFAL class with him.In 1957, he and Harry bought out their brothers and bought the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declared it the propertyof "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.)(Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work began on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he ran a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he ran an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moved to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrived and taught at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he ran a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moved the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa taught at the summer school.(Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claimed special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw went to Lima, Ohio and filmed the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL had not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 was when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. This was the edition of PFAL that incorporated Bullinger's books (the contents, but not the books themselves) into the curriculum. In Fall of 1967, vpw first filmed the PFAL class. This was done in a setting with bright studio lights. (Bright studio lights do not cause cancer.) vpw claimed that a doctor told him that filming a second day would mean permanent eye damage, and that he was staring into 8000 watts. He filmed for 3 complete days, getting sore eyes from the bright lights (which do not cause cancer.) The figure of 2000 watts seems to be a more realistic figure for the light level of the filmed class (which is still VERY bright.) According to TW:LIL, In 1967, vpw read about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw went there, impressed them, and convinced them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turned those he could from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agreed to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians were impressed with THEM and join. It's been suggested that one of the reasons he went there was because he'd heard of the "free-love" movement and wanted to connect with Christians who would have sex outside of marriage. Thus claim might sound ridiculous if his accounts of them didn't include little comments about their displays of affection-and especially since he'd asked one of them-back then and there-to give him DETAILS on what an orgy was like. He followed up by claiming that God PERMITTED orgies-but considered monogamy BETTER. It's also believed that San Francisco is where vpw bought the pornographic materials he showed the corps, some Advanced Classes and CFS classes-like the movie of the two women with the dog. (He MENTIONED that video to many Advanced classes and CFS classes where it was not SHOWN.) According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". At some point-presumably early in the way corps history, and possibly as early as 1969, vpw (according to Mrs W's account) first begins to tell his "snow on the pumps" account to people, starting with the way corps. At another point-before the early 1970s-vpw began adding to the "special revelation" that produced the books and classes (which were really compilations of the work of other Christians with their names removed) and began speaking of special revelation about current events. He began to expound on some conspiracy theories to the corps, and about attempts to take over the United States. vpw was getting this material from the John Birch Society and the Liberty Lobby. A few people on-grounds were aware of information coming in from them, but almost nobody knew those were the direct sources of his supposed "revelation". As he had done often before, he just claimed to mysteriously know things and never cited a source-leaving the listeners to guess that there WAS no conventional source, making this ANOTHER thing God just told him. These conspiracy theorist organizations and their personal biases fill in the blanks in some of his odder statements. Their anti-Semitism helps explain his claims that the current Jews were not descended from the historic Jews (which has been disproven genetically since), and his recommendations of books like "the Thirteenth Tribe." Their condemnation of rock and roll and musician/celebrities explain his claims of all musicians being possessed, and his recommendation of "the Marxist Minstrels" to the corps (which claimed rock and roll was a communist plot to take over the United States.) vpw even had David Noebel, who wrote "the Marxist Minstrels" come and lecture the corps. In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published, compiling the pamphlets into 3 small hardbound books. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas was bought. It was renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it was put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" was published. This was the last book- not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that was actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses were purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research") and Gunnison, Colorado ("the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison"). In 1977, the PFAL '77 was done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and Donald Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees (replacing "Uncle" Harry Wierwille and Ermal Owens.) In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it was written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It was a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also was written by staff, and said "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relied largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house was purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It was named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars- tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when "no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't sinful, and therefore had no consequences. However, there WERE consequences.... By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain- and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent (unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body. He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke. vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience. Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?" Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems, especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER- not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that removed the cancer-stricken eye. The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses- and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE, any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However, this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer. WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own (like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily. However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death. In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time, the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was "he got tired of fighting." In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.) That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living was published posthumously. Its contents were from vpw, it was edited by Chr1$ Ge*r.

I'm just going to quote what I'm going to comment on. Since this is from the post immediately proceeding mine, I don't expect this will produce outrage, since people can just scroll up. Of course, as John already pointed out, this means this is hearsay. It may be that NONE of it is true, only REPORTED as true to you and others. It amazes me that there's this impression still being held by some- in spite of documentation to the contrary- that you can negate plagiarism or any other phrasing of taking the work of someone else or some other source, by paraphrasing, or moving some words around. If cg retyped the work of others and did not cite his sources, that is plagiarism. If cg paraphrased the work of others and did not cite his sources, that is plagiarism. If cg took a PART of PART of the work of ONE person, and did not cite his SOURCE, that is plagiarism. The wigp has been claimed to be an improved version of pfal- and even you're admitting that- BUT PFAL IS NEVER CITED ANYWHERE IN WIGP. That's plagiarism. It's not "right" when ANYONE does it.

That jibes with what I remember of the fog years. Remember the mindset of the twi innie- which is true to this very day: "We are the only ones with The Truth in all the world. Other Christians just can't keep up, and don't have what we need." Therefore, if WE don't have it, NOBODY does. With that mindset, it's vitally important we don't lose what WE have, because we're "it." There IS nobody else. It's SUCH an ugly shock to meet other Christians and find resources so easy-to-get outside of twi. Barnes & Noble along either carries or can order almost the entire "research library" of an innie. (Everything not put out by twi itself.) Christian bookstores can do more than that, and often have similar books alongside. Not to mention books on subjects twi knows NOTHING on, like dreams. Finally, don't forget that God requires a class to convey his vital doctrine. At least in the twi paradigm.

rascal, shame on you! You MENTIONED Galatians 5, but didn't quote the verses! You know it's easier to pretend it doesn't sound anything like vpw if you're not actually READING THE VERSES! Here's Galatians 5:16-21 in the KJV. You're referring to 5:19-21. 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ======== Here's Galatians 5:16-21 in the NASB. You're referring to 5:19-21. 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hello. A few people have made a cold evaluation and determined that EVERYTHING they learned from twi-official doctrines, teachings, and practices used at twi- were of no real use, and are no longer Christians. They're adults, and those are their decisions. As for those of us who are still Christians, usually we still agree with SOMETHING twi taught, whether or not we trust twi teaching on it. (For example, almost all the Christians here still believe Jesus is the Messiah, and so on.) Blanket statements like "ALL we have learned" tend to make me look twice, since things are usually NOT that simple- but they are when someone's accusing someone else of doing them, as in "why have you thrown away all you've learned?" I'm not saying you're doing this, necessarily, but it's an easy habit, and a bad habit, to get into. I would keep an eye out for it if I were you. (Since I'm not you, you are free to ignore this advice.) Well, since you asked....vpw's character is at the core of a number of issues, and the heart of how twi functioned and operated (and to a degree, how it STILL does both.) He claimed he, and he alone, had exclusive knowledge from God that Christians were missing for 2000 years, and that all other Christians reside in error, and are inferior Christians AT BEST. He claimed their leaders were untrustworthy. All of those were lies, carefully designed to get people to look to vpw as the finisher of our faith, and to seal themselves away from all other forms of Christian to avoid error. That error still applies whenever anyone ex-twi claims that "all other Christians and all other Christian leaders are petty, error-ridden, and selfish!" That's only the FIRST of many issues. In short, YOU care, because that's what was carefully taught to you. They carefully taught it to me, too, but I've had years to address this specific point. If I MUST pick a televangelist, then I shall say ONE of them is a true man of God- Billy Graham. HONEST inquiries into his life have shown a man who "walks the talk" and "talks the walk". However, I consider this a trick question for two reasons. A) this "man of God" thing, where one man has the Special Knowledge and is to be obeyed, that's reserved for Jesus Christ, and him ONLY- not ANY representative on the earth. All leaders have the respect of their organizations, but blind ANYTHING-trust, obedience- are completely wrong and DANGEROUS. B) The best men of God (and women of God) I've known have rarely gone on television. They follow their calling where they are at-and that usually means that instead of a television studio, they're in "the valley of human need", ministering to others. I agree with you about any one person-or group- having The Key to God. I can work with you and agree at any point, but I'm NOT just going where you point. As for the "baby" "bathwater" analogy, I wince when I hear it now. There's a saying I heard once: "Never mistake a slogan for a solution." (John Capozzi.) I've heard this analogy a lot over the years, and rarely is it a sign someone's thought the issue through-it's been used IN PLACE OF THINKING, very often. (Not that YOU necessarily have had this problem, but MANY people have.) I've seen it very common that twi'ers-both IN twi and OUT of twi- will avoid a difficult question-or a problem they don't want to face- by invoking some stock phrase and pretending that answered the question. (Not that YOU necessarily have had this problem, but MANY people-especially leadership types-have.) I prefer sayings like "prove all things, hold fast to what is good." HOW one will put them to the proof is up to them. It's often recommended to put aside the twi books, get a new, clean Bible (the New American Standard Bible is THE best Bible for ex-twi'ers looking for a new perspective, since it's got the italics, clearer language, and a stronger document history than the KJV, but you may use any version you wish, of course) and start over. If the Bible truly reflects something, it will be there. Of course, all the head-knowledge in the world won't help build a RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST. How about putting down the Bible and doing some acts of mercy with no hope of being recognized for them? How about finding some other Christians and building them up without putting the focus on you? These are at LEAST as important. Jesus never told his disciples that people would recognize them by their KNOWLEDGE, but by their LOVE. How will others see your love if you're not putting it in motion?

Anyone around here care to demonstrate their superior grasp of the rudiments of Christ by seizing the moral high ground and refraining from cheapshots against their fellow Christians, for whom Christ died?

I'll say I'D like to see that. What do the rest of you say?

Do you really think it's either fair or honest to characterize other posters as being grieved that anyone had a prayer answered, or saw deliverance, or received a blessing? Even the atheists and non-Christians wouldn't say that.... Do you think a good Christian should mischaracterize others, misrepresent them or express dishonesty about them?

One can argue that both ways-that some will immediately condemn any criticism of twi, pfal or vpw CATEGORICALLY. I think one of the new threads is addressing something related to this. Feel free to start a new thread if it's not addressing what you want to- I certainly do. Well, you've got me there.

I prefer that too, but the GSC doesn't work that way, and I can either adapt to that, ignore it, or complain each time it happens.