WordWolf

"Out of the tree of life, I just picked me a plum. You came along and everything's startin' to hum."

"I was waiting for the universe to dispense some justice but sometimes the universe is just too damn slow. The effects of putting Nair in someone's styling gel, however, only take a few minutes." "I haven't experienced life!" "I've experienced life, and I'm here to tell you it's overrated." "I am only a lowly cog in this woman's life. Pity me." "When will you learn, if it doesn't apply to me, it doesn't matter?" "I come in peace!" "..I take it you're going with 'I come in peace' again..." "My head is spinning..." "Of course it's spinning. It's revolted-your brain is probably trying to twist its way out of your head!" "C'mon guys, I'm missing '2 Stupid Dogs' for this." "...that bleeping little Dutch boy...." "We are in court-you will need to read that EXACTLY as you wrote it." "That IS the way I wrote it. Look." "'That bleeping little Dutch boy...'" "That means WE are the art!" "It's on the CEILING!" "Miller Renfield! How were things in the Kuala Lampur?" "I finally figured out what FYI stands for: "Four Yelling Idiots." "All right. That's a step. There's 11 more-we'll get to that." "There was no chemistry, there was no old gang! And if there was, you weren't apart of it. You drove us nuts! Taking off your shoes, humming while you ate, and there's no such word as alls, it's all. It's all I know! It wasn't the network, it was us! We wanted you fired!" "I want a Miles Silverberger!" "People don't name sandwiches after executive producers. Look, I know you like hot dogs-let me get you a Fontana Frank." "Oh, great! Now we know what they teach in the Louisiana school system in sophmore year instead of Spanish!" "...This is a gay bar." "A gay bar? Jim owns a gay bar? That means-oh my God- Jim is GAY?" "CORKY! Jim and Doris have been happily married for over TWENTY YEARS!" "Do you think she knows?" "And that's ALL'S I know about politics." "And now, a man so cute they gave him his own network, Stan Lansing!" "You make me feel, You make me feel, You make me feel like a natural woma---AAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! Commercials ripped this episode off for YEARS. (And it was still amusing.) This is a show that had a character who previously had spent time in the Betty Ford Clinic. And had Scott Bakula as a regular at one point. And Lily Tomlin. And Gary Marshall. And guested Bob Newhart, Don Rickles, Bette Midler, Rose Marie, and Haley Joel Osment. It won 7 Emmys, 3 Golden Globes, and 2 SAG Awards. (It might have won more Emmys, but one actress removed herself from consideration after winning her FIFTH EMMY IN A ROW for this show.)

(Where did this post go? I reconstructed most of it a post later.)

Hm. A song whose name is not in the opening line, that people will recognize BY the opening line. Hm. "Out of the tree of life, I just picked me a plum."

On the one hand, it seems they are referring specifically to an earthly king. On the other hand, it seems they are not. I believe BOTH are correct. If we were discussing that particular earthly king, I would skip discussions about who ELSE it might refer to. Since we're discussing the other, I just didn't bring up the earthly king. Jeremiah 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. This referred to Rahel and Ramah. However, Matthew 2:17-18 (King James Version) "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, 18In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." We have Herod's slaughter of innocents stated that THIS is what Jeremiah was talking about. Now, I COULD say "It ONLY referred to Rahel and Ramah, so, Matthew, you're wrong." Since I don't think it was MATTHEW's idea, but God Almighty's, I don't have the gall to say "God, you're wrong." I contemplate how BOTH answers are right. This is STILL all based on my current understanding, and is NOT the last word on the subject.

This show was NOT short-lived. It was, what? 7 seasons? 8 seasons? All on primetime, not counting syndication. Raf must be busy.

Gotta remember a music video with Robin Williams and Bill Irwin. Bobby Mc Ferrin's "Don't Worry, Be Happy."

I do not believe there's a device we can point at someone and detect "born again" or not. I do not believe there's any single thing a person can say or do which allows us to detect "born again" or not. Did they claim they made Jesus their Lord and believed God raised them from the dead? How do I know they weren't lying? Any actor-or any con artist- could make a CONVINCING display of emotion at the podium, claiming convictions concerning God, and it could all be lies. Do they speak in tongues? Again, any actor-or any con artist- of any passing skill can clearly and lucidly pronounce syllables not in a known language, and make them sound as if there's conviction behind them. (Now that I think of it, I DID have a class in college where one exercise, we did exactly that. In our case, it was to demonstrate the ability to convey a scene through tone, and through action, but without telling anyone what the scene was. The teacher was able to get EXACTLY what was happening-and it was pretty complicated. But I'm rambling off-topic.) So, I do not believe there is any one thing we can do to determine if someone we're looking at is "born again" or not. There's no miraculous tattoo, there's no "Highlander buzz", there's no nothing.

He also died before Pentecost. I thought that meant-by definition- he couldn't BE "born again." John the Baptizer, according to Jesus-who would know- was even-up with the greatest of the great ever born, but he was less than the least in the kingdom of God. He also died before Pentecost.

I've wondered about II Peter 2, also. KJV "2 Peter 2 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb foot speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. ============ I wonder about the last 4 verses. If "those that were clean escaped" are supposedly "born again", what could it mean that they can face a "latter end" "worse with them than the beginning"? Supposedly, this would mean verse 21 says it would have been better NEVER to have been "born again", than to have been born again and THEN turn aside and serve lust, wantonness, and greed. Does that mean that- if a man is born again, then decides to serve his lusts, and treats others like merchandise, that God will deliver a punishment so severe, that he'd rather have never been born again, because he would never have faced a punishment so severe?

Ever notice they're the only 2 men referred to in the KJV as "son of perdition"? I've wondered sometimes whether that means that "the Antichrist" as you called him, or, as II Thessalonians called him, the "man of sins", would be-like Judas- a man claiming to be religious, given to making pious displays and statements ("that could have been sold, and the money given to the poor") and using a position as a servant of God to satisfy his lusts ("he had the bag, and bore what was therein.") I don't have any answers to that. And I've been wondering it for a long time.

"I was waiting for the universe to dispense some justice but sometimes the universe is just too damn slow. The effects of putting Nair in someone's styling gel, however, only take a few minutes." "I haven't experienced life!" "I've experienced life, and I'm here to tell you it's overrated." "I am only a lowly cog in this woman's life. Pity me." "When will you learn, if it doesn't apply to me, it doesn't matter?" "I come in peace!" "..I take it you're going with 'I come in peace' again..." "My head is spinning..." "Of course it's spinning. It's revolted-your brain is probably trying to twist its way out of your head!" "C'mon guys, I'm missing '2 Stupid Dogs' for this." "...that bleeping little Dutch boy...." "We are in court-you will need to read that EXACTLY as you wrote it." "That IS the way I wrote it. Look." "'That bleeping little Dutch boy...'" "That means WE are the art!" "It's on the CEILING!" "Miller Renfield! How were things in the Kuala Lampur?" "I finally figured out what FYI stands for: "Four Yelling Idiots." "All right. That's a step. There's 11 more-we'll get to that." "There was no chemistry, there was no old gang! And if there was, you weren't apart of it. You drove us nuts! Taking off your shoes, humming while you ate, and there's no such word as alls, it's all. It's all I know! It wasn't the network, it was us! We wanted you fired!" "I want a Miles Silverberger!" "People don't name sandwiches after executive producers. Look, I know you like hot dogs-let me get you a Fontana Frank." "Oh, great! Now we know what they teach in the Louisiana school system in sophmore year instead of Spanish!" "...This is a gay bar." "A gay bar? Jim owns a gay bar? That means-oh my God- Jim is GAY?" "CORKY! Jim and Doris have been happily married for over TWENTY YEARS!" "Do you think she knows?" "And that's ALL'S I know about politics." This is a show that had a character who previously had spent time in the Betty Ford Clinic.

No. All the quotes were from regular characters. Including the ones with the names in it.

If YOU ever resorted to wrath with them, that would not be healthy. If you responded to immature screaming and ranting by folding up and collapsing into yourself, that would not be healthy. If you responded to immature screaming and ranting by returning it, that would not be particularly healthy, but it's better than the collapsing thing. It looks like you can "master" your emotions to a degree. Others can't force you into anger, nor do you resort to it yourself. Those are healthy adaptations to the Unhealthy situations you encountered. Sort of like how the body builds antibodies against germs once it's exposed to them. That's my opinion. When I was on my way out of twi, someone tried to put emotional pressure on me-I responded by separating myself from emotion and continuing to communicate calmly. He did NOT like it. Which, of course, amused me, making it easier to keep it up.

Ah, the link to TAKE the quiz is: http://www.gotoquiz.com/ultimate_bible_quiz

You're welcome. Please save the link for next time. :) This is all based on my current understanding, which is hardly the last word on the subject. Whether or not Jesus pre-existed the rebellion is a matter of contention, and unimportant to the main questions here. As I understand it, Lucifer was an "angel" of great authority, and great ability. Lucifer became envious of God Almighty, and decided that he himself would be set above all other angels, and be like God Almighty, usurping God's rightful authority. To do this, he co-opted 1/3 of the angels of Heaven, and staged a revolt. Michael was an "angel" of great authority, and great ability. When the former "light-bearer" chose darkness and staged the revolt, Michael led the forces dedicated to God Almighty. Michael's troops won. Usual depictions are of him going up against the former "lucifer" and defeating him single-handedly. I don't know either way. I know who won and who lost. After this, satan ("accuser") was cast down to Earth, no longer allowed in Heaven, along with his troops, who numbered at least 36,000. ---- Ok, what was the question again? Right-did God "turn the other cheek" or opt for a regime change. Well, the regime in Heaven stayed the same, with GOD in command. Some positions under him, of course, stayed the same, some changed as God filled the new vacancies. satan was cast out of Heaven, so there WERE consequences. God didn't destroy him, which was very lenient. I'm not sure if this answers your question.

No. You were closer the first time, if at all. I'm sure someone can name it by now.

Why is it when I discuss Galatians 5, I quote the verses, THEN discuss them, but when YOU discuss the verses, you just announce what they "say"? The reason WTH and you keep dragging this in is to ameliorate or palliate penaltiesvpw would face for his works of the flesh. Don't insult my intelligence and claim it's not. Request denied. The topic for discussion on this thread is "forgiveness." Being born again or not is NOT part of that- despite WTH and you pushing otherwise. I'm NOT getting off the topic. You look at people,and subtract the ones who are making the works of the fleshan ongoing concern of theirs. From there on, I leave the matter to God, who neither told me I had to worry about anyone being born again, nor gave me a barometer. He told me to watch out for those who do the works of the flesh- and THAT he gave me a barometer for. A "born again" who screws up people's lives for his lusts is to be avoided, as is a "rank unbeliever" who screws up people's lives for HIS lusts. THAT I'm supposed to watch out for. As to the rest, please note I am confident this entire line of questioning is in the same vein as the Pharisees trying to trip Jesus up. I have answered you anyway- TO A POINT. I do NOT intend to remain off-topic and engage in Sophistry used to obfuscate the issues. In other words, I've given you all the answer NOW on the subject I intend to, and plan on hewing to the actual TOPIC. Matthew 22:15-16. 15Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

http://www.biblegateway.com KJV 3 occurrences of "Noe" in the NT, all in the Gospels, and not what you wanted. No occurrences of "chained" in the NT. "captivity captive" is Ephesians 4:8. I think what you wanted was I Peter 3:18-22. 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Matthew 22:15-18 15Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. 17Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Matthew 22:35-40 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If all it takes to convince YOU that someone is born again- and, presumably, free to sin like all-get-out without consequences- is to see someone lucid begin to speak in a language you don't recognize- then, brother, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you, and it's on sale this week. The Screen Actor's Guild in the US has over 120,000 members, all performers. That's not counting all the actors in Actor's Equity Association, or any actor not in either union. Counting only the members of SAG, nearly every one of them should be able to convincingly portray "speaking in tongues" to a degree that should satisfy you. Certainly, they'd be able to exceed the examples used in the filmed class, where the same handful of syllables CONSISTENTLY kept coming up. (Doesn't that ring a 'suspicion bell' anywhere?) Someone stayed on topic! Imagine that...

This is perhaps the first time in history that a MAN has interrupted a conversation with a WOMAN to quote back something she said six months ago without providing the context. I'm familiar with WOMEN pulling out an old argument to refight it, hopefully after he's forgotten all the details. (Had it pulled on me EXACTLY ONCE, too. When she realized I could recite the incident back from memory, give the context, and show she misrepresented it, she never tried it again. Later, a friend warned me that would happen, and when I told him how I handled it, he toasted me and bought the next round.) So, oldies went OUT of this conversation, to pull a statement out of its context, and made it look like rascal JUST said that. He didn't MISQUOTE rascal, he intentionally MISREPRESENTED rascal, by making it look like she said NOW in THIS discussion what she said LAST YEAR in a DIFFERENT discussion. Naturally, he thinks this was perfectly fine, and anyone who thinks this is unfair unless he represents the comment as having been PREVIOUS has a meritless complaint. Oldiesman owe someone an apology? He'd have to have REGRET and REMORSE. Oldies' doctrine claims having EITHER and being born again is WRONG because he's born again and that's a free pass to do ANYTHING. That IS what we're discussing. Interesting, no?

Hebrews 10:30-31 "30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. " Don't worry, wing, there's always one justification or another, so some people will QUICKLY say this doesn't mean that the judgement of God on His OWN people is something the mere THOUGHT of should be enough to get one to refrain from works of the flesh. You began your post summing things up nicely. For some of us, it's ALL about VINDICATING vp. It was ONCE about claiming he never ruined people's lives, or did the works of the flesh. Since that failed, NOW it's about "Well, he did it, but that's ok. He's still the man of God for his day and time, and he really DID hear from God and taught things new that weren't current for nearly 2000 years." It's true of VERY few of us. For example, I don't think Johnny Lingo makes those claims. (I may be wrong, but if he believes that, he's being more tactful on the subject, at the very least.) Even when I was a twi-er, I believed it was an improvement to take everything we could learn in twi, and could learn from other Christians, filter out error from BOTH, and take all of that to another level. Some people are clear that other Christians just don't have much "truth", and if it wasn't vpw and twi- or sources they endorsed like Bullinger- then there's no point even cracking a book open. "Stop saying those things about vpw. Let me say nice things about him only..."

I'm having trouble finding quotes, and am forced to rely on memory. This limits the number of non-giveaway quotes. This set SHOULD do it. "I was waiting for the universe to dispense some justice but sometimes the universe is just too damn slow. The effects of putting Nair in someone's styling gel, however, only take a few minutes." "I haven't experienced life!" "I've experienced life, and I'm here to tell you it's overrated." "I am only a lowly cog in this woman's life. Pity me." "When will you learn, if it doesn't apply to me, it doesn't matter?" "I come in peace!" "..I take it you're going with 'I come in peace' again..." "My head is spinning..." "Of course it's spinning. It's revolted-your brain is probably trying to twist its way out of your head!" "C'mon guys, I'm missing '2 Stupid Dogs' for this." "...that bleeping little Dutch boy...." "We are in court-you will need to read that EXACTLY as you wrote it." "That IS the way I wrote it. Look." "'That bleeping little Dutch boy...'" "That means WE are the art!" "I want a Miles Silverberger!" "People don't name sandwiches after executive producers. Look, I know you like hot dogs-let me get you a Fontana Frank." "Oh, great! Now we know what they teach in the Louisiana school system in sophmore year instead of Spanish!" "...This is a gay bar." "A gay bar? Jim owns a gay bar? That means-oh my God- Jim is GAY?" "CORKY! Jim and Doris have been happily married for over TWENTY YEARS!" "Do you think she knows?" "And that's ALL'S I know about politics."