WordWolf

Is anyone keeping track of how many logical fallacies WD can commit in a single thread? This one is equivalent to saying "Lots of people met Jeffrey Dahmer and were never eaten" and using that to suggest Dahmer was innocent of cannibalism.

What does that respectable institution of journalism, the Wall Street Journal, say? Oh, look! They carried Dan Abrams' column! Apparently, they (professionals on journalism, and what is worth reporting) disagreed with our one layman who claimed it was the byproduct of a lesser network and errors on the part of the PROFESSIONAL who wrote it...... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123569758678089027.html * FEBRUARY 27, 2009 Presumed Innocent? Bernie Madoff? Unless you're a juror, there's no reason to suspend judgment. By DAN ABRAMS People constantly complain to me about news coverage of criminal cases. "What happened to the presumption of innocence?" they ask at almost every turn. Well, I'm tired of it. I don't presume that Bernie Madoff is innocent. The same goes for toddler Caylee Anthony's mom Casey, or for any of the alleged mobsters on trial in New York, or most other high-profile defendants. Certain defense attorneys (or former Illinois governors who effectively decide to represent themselves) would have you believe that is somehow shameful, maybe even anti-American. As a citizen -- or even a TV legal analyst -- am I required to presume innocence, i.e., that the authorities arrest the wrong person in every case? Not a chance. Imagine how this might play out on television: "So Dan, how bad is it for (insert name of minor reality-show celebrity here) that the authorities found a pound of cocaine and four ounces of heroin on his person and in his car, the entire arrest was captured on videotape and the defendant confessed the drugs were his?" "Bad? Bob, I have to presume the defendant innocent, so I'll presume those drugs were planted by corrupt police officers well before the car came into focus on the tape. And that confession? Well, it must have been coerced." That would hardly reflect an effort to assess and evaluate the legal strategies and evidence as fairly and objectively as possible. While not explicitly articulated in the Constitution, the presumption of innocence has, through Supreme Court opinions, become a fundamental tenet of our criminal-justice system, and rightly so. Traced back to Deuteronomy, and reportedly embodied in the laws of Sparta and Athens, the presumption ensures that government, which has the enormous power to take away someone's freedom, assumes the burden to prove its accusation beyond a reasonable doubt, the properly demanding legal standard in criminal proceedings. Essentially we stack the legal deck in favor of the defendant. After all, the potential consequence (in most cases prison time) is so grave that we say we would rather let "10 guilty men go free than convict an innocent one." But unless I am sitting in the jury box armed with that power I, and any other nonjuror for that matter, have no obligation, moral or legal, to embrace that legal fiction. The same applies, for example, to hearsay evidence. It's generally inadmissible in court, and yet most of us live our lives based on what people we trust tell us they heard or learned. Some claim that, because legal banditos like me refuse to presume every defendant innocent, the prospective jury pool is polluted, thereby making it impossible for jurors to presume innocent a defendant in a high-profile case. Malarkey. That is why we have jury selection. The goal is not to find jurors who necessarily know nothing about a case, but to find jurors who can fairly evaluate evidence and determine guilt or innocence. No question, extensive media coverage can make the selection of a jury take longer. In a worst-case scenario, a change of venue would be the remedy. But defense attorneys who complain about poisoned jury pools are often really just saying that they think prospective jurors are lying when asked what they've heard about the case in the media. Watching jury selection during the O.J. Simpson civil case in Santa Monica in 1996 served as a reminder that, lo and behold, not everyone follows news that closely. Did every juror know about the criminal case that had concluded in downtown Los Angeles months earlier? Of course. Did they know some of the facts? Surely. But they were also not O.J. junkies who had followed the ins and outs of the case. They were open to rendering a verdict based on what they heard in court. What about those like CNN's Nancy Grace who seems to presume every defendant guilty? Criticize her if you like, but such behavior doesn't mean the rest of us must feign ignorance. We can question police and prosecutors without necessarily presuming they are corrupt or misguided. Early in the investigation of the Duke University lacrosse players accused of rape in 2006, some of the very same people who suggest that the presumption of innocence be applied in all aspects of society demanded that action be taken immediately against the students. The case is now regularly cited as an example of how important it is to presume all defendants innocent in the media as well. But that misses the point. Those of us who examined the evidence, even superficially, quickly realized the case was flimsy at best. The lesson there was not about presumptions but about the need to critically evaluate facts. Demanding that all of us presume every defendant innocent outside of a courtroom is to demand that we stop evaluating facts, thereby suffocating independent thought and opinion. There is nothing "reasonable" about that. Mr. Abrams is NBC News chief legal analyst and the CEO of Abrams Research.

http://blog.nj.com/njv_frank_askin/2008/12...umption_of.html Blogo and the presumption of innocence Posted by Frank Askin December 24, 2008 12:11PM Illinois Governor Rod Blogojevich asks his constituents to give him the presumption of innocence they would expect for themselves if accused of crime. And there is no question when and if Blogojevich goes to trial in a criminal court that presumption holds. But there is no such presumption when it comes to the court of public opinion. At such times, the people of Illinois are entitled to make their own determination whether he is fit to hold public office. Indeed, even if he went to trial and was found not guilty, that would have little bearing on his fitness for office. A not guilty verdict would only signify that a jury had found that the government and failed to prove his commission of crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The "reasonable doubt" standard is not the test for public service. It would not even be the appropriate test for an impeachment proceeding before the Illinois Legislature. Indeed, the Illinois Constitution is silent as to the grounds for impeachment. It merely provides that if the lower house votes by a majority to impeach the Governor, the Senate may remove him from office, after trial, by a 2/3 vote. It does not even specify that there must be a "high crime or misdemeanor," as the Federal Constitution does. Presumably, the test would be whether the Legislature believes that the governor has violated his oath of office. And there is clearly no requirement that it find liability beyond a reasonable doubt. No person has a right to hold public office until proof of commission of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. That is a judicial test, not a political one. ================ Frank Askin is Professor of Law and founding director of the Constitutional Litigation Clinic at Rutgers School of Law, Newark. His memoir is "Defending Rights: a Life in Law & Politics. He is also listed in "Best Lawyers in America."

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20020617.html ALLEN IVERSON AND THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE By SHERRY F. COLB Monday, Jun. 17, 2002 On Thursday, July 11th, Allen Iverson--the Philadelphia 76ers' All-Star Guard and NBA most valuable player for the 2000-01 season--was charged with three felonies and assorted misdemeanors. Prosecutors say he threw his wife of eleven months, Tawana Iverson, out of their house, naked, and subsequently threatened several men with a gun in his efforts to locate her. One of the men gave an account of what happened in a 911 call in which he suggested that this was the third time Iverson had thrown his wife out of their home. In response to the charges, Larry Brown and Billy King, the Sixers' coach and general manager, say they firmly support Iverson, reportedly emphasizing that he should be "presumed innocent" unless he is proven guilty. Such statements, though quite common, misconstrue the role of the presumption of innocence in a criminal case and feed the mistaken belief--shared by many--that the Constitution requires everyone in the United States to presume that an accused criminal is actually innocent until a jury finds otherwise. "Innocent Until Proven Guilty": Literal Truth? Recall another celebrity athlete who stood accused of spousal violence. During the year-long circus that was the O.J. Simpson trial, I encountered two odd claims by non-lawyers (and some misguided attorneys) with whom I was acquainted. The first claim was that Simpson actually was innocent, and would continue to be innocent, unless and until a jury brought in a guilty verdict against him. For all but those who take the radical (one might even say preposterous) view that the truth of an event from the past magically changes when the jury reaches a verdict, the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" cannot be taken as an accurate, literal description of reality. O.J. Simpson either did or did not kill Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman, and nothing that a jury says later can factually alter that historical truth. No Command for Non-jurors to Suspend Judgment A second remark I encountered during the year that Marcia Clark and Johnny Cochran became household names, was that we all must suspend judgment about O.J.'s guilt until the jury reaches a verdict, with the implicit correlative that an acquittal requires all people to believe that O.J. was innocent. Neither of these positions has any foundation in law or logic. An audience watching a television show like The Practice or Law and Order must await the end of the program to find out what "really" happened. That is because the shows are fictional, and what most viewers want to know is whether--in the script--the accused is guilty or not. Because the truth lives only in the imagination of the show's creators, it is appropriate for the audience to delay all conclusions until the end, relegating suspicions and beliefs to the status of guesswork until the dramatic, and often unexpected, denouement. The Presumption of Innocence in a Criminal Trial What then is the appropriate role for the presumption of innocence? In a criminal trial, the presumption of innocence is an important constitutional protection for the accused. It means that the jury may only pronounce the defendant guilty if the physical and testimonial evidence presented prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Put differently, the jury must say "not guilty" even when it believes the defendant is guilty and often, it follows, even when the defendant in fact is guilty. Until the evidentiary threshold of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is reached, the judge and the Constitution order the jury to acquit. The reason for this rule is that a guilty verdict subjects a person to incarceration, the deprivation of freedom that we all cherish and that is guaranteed us under normal circumstances. Though the acquittal of a factually guilty man is unfortunate and costly, it is an inevitable byproduct of a system designed to reduce to close to zero the odds that a factually innocent person will be convicted of a crime. None of this, however, has anything to do with what the rest of us--the people of the United States who are not serving on a particular criminal defendant's jury--are obligated to think or say. In the case of Allen Iverson, for example, the man who called 911 to report being threatened at gunpoint is under no obligation to presume Iverson's innocence. Indeed, if he takes the witness stand at trial and falsely recants his story as a favor to a friend (or as a loyal basketball fan), he will be guilty of perjury. How to Interpret Inconsistent Verdicts When O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder and subsequently held liable for wrongful death in a civil trial, some people wondered what they were supposed to think. For those who would treat the jury as a font of truth, it was possible to reconcile the verdicts--the evidence might have proved that Simpson probably killed Brown and Goldman, but it was not quite strong enough to eliminate all reasonable doubt. Significantly, however, we need not view the verdicts in that deferential, crabbed way. It is possible and even reasonable to reach other conclusions. One might conclude either that (a) the criminal jury erred in reaching its verdict; (b) the criminal jury disregarded the judge's instructions to find the defendant guilty if the evidence supported that verdict beyond a reasonable doubt; or © the criminal jury correctly reacted to the evidence admitted at trial, but other evidence that failed to make its way in--including, but not limited to, Simpson's flight from the police, threats of suicide, claims that he loved Nicole "too much," and the prophetic entries in Nicole's own diary--fill the gap between what the jury heard and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Notably, in the civil trial, Simpson was forced to testify and had no recourse to the Fifth Amendment, as he had in his criminal trial. That too could account for the divergence in verdicts. So could the fact that a photo of Simpson in the Bruno Magli shoes he had denied wearing was available at the civil, but not yet at the criminal, trial. The Right to Think and Speak Logically, Outside the Jury Room However one views the Simpson and Iverson cases, the Constitution does not dictate what we ought to think or say. Indeed, it protects those thoughts and statements, regardless of their content or viewpoint, under the First Amendment. We therefore need not limit ourselves in the ways the jury is limited--in terms of either the evidence we are allowed to consider, the threshold that evidence must meet before we draw a conclusion, or even our own default presumption. You can presume that Allan Iverson is guilty as charged, in other words, subject to rebuttal by proof that emerges in the next several months. You can do that, based on logic and the evidence you already know about, along with the fact that thankfully, a relatively small proportion of people charged with crimes are factually innocent. What you cannot do, consistent with the Constitution, is bring your logical presumption of guilt, your willingness to infer guilt on the basis of inadmissible evidence (such as Iverson's prior bad acts), or your readiness to "convict without a trial" into a jury room. In that room, where twelve people hold the power to deprive a person of her fundamental freedom from physical confinement, the law and the judge's instructions rightly govern our thought processes. Sherry F. Colb, a FindLaw columnist, is a Professor at Rutgers Law School in Newark and teaches courses in criminal procedure and evidence.

I'm sure a number of us would cheerfully pass the hat if it came to that.

"Police Squad in color"?

You know, as a courtesy, I cut WD some slack when he posted this before. (post 289, pg-15, 8:36pm Wed March 4, 2008.) However, since he's INSISTING we not cut him some slack in this fashion, I shall acknowledge his post. So, WD's idea of how to try to refute the PROFESSIONAL comments of a LEGAL PROFESSIONAL is NOT "find a different LEGAL PROFESSIONAL and quote a counter-refutation." It SHOULD have been that. I even TOLD him that. In several posts. WD's idea of how to try to refute the PROFESSIONAL comments of a LEGAL PROFESSIONAL are to COMPLETELY DISCARD THE SUBJECT OF LAW AND INNOCENCE, and to instead find someone completely unrelated to the PROFESSIONAL or even his PROFESSION, but who speaks nonsense. In other words, some medical doctor somewhere said some nonsense. Therefore, the LEGAL PROFESSIONAL and his LEGAL STATEMENTS are null and void. THIS is the kind of "logic" in use- "logic" whose only rules seem to have nothing to do with actual "logic" and everything to do with "try everything, no matter how silly, in an attempt to remove guilt from vpw, who embezzled, exercised simony, drugged and raped women, and in general abused the office of minister of God."

So, does WD acknowledge that he is a layman, and a PROFESSIONAL actually refuted his claims? Does WD acknowledge a PROFESSIONAL even addressed his points? Honest intellectual discussion would do so-but when one is pushing an agenda, honesty is inconvenient and just something to distract from, which is why we got this response... Actually, it was one PROFESSIONAL's opinion. We can discuss medicine all day, but when someone can bring in a medical PROFESSIONAL's opinion, that carries more weight. Nobody on this thread is a legal PROFESSIONAL, but one was quoted as speaking on this subject, in context. If you have an article from a different PROFESSIONAL, say, one that figures first or second in the ratings, that refutes this PROFESSIONAL, feel free to post a link. Again, a PROFESSIONAL has REFUTED the claims of the LAYMAN. Does the LAYMAN introduce counter-refutation, or does he claim he knows the PROFESSIONAL's field better than the PROFESSIONAL? So because he is a professional and has one opinion that makes him the authority? Really? then by that logic this man is also a professinal does his one opinion also count as right? There are lots of professionals last time I looked that did not qualify you as the authority on truth alone. Nothing like some logical fallacy and fogging the issues rather than actually addressing the points of a PROFESSIONAL. "Because he is a professional" Correct so far- a professional. "And has one opinion"- now this is just needling the PROFESSIONAL, we're addressing one subject. Any PROFESSIONAL has LOTS of opinions. "That makes him the authority?" Nothing like addressing claims nobody ever made to make WD sound like he actually understands the subject in which he's only a layman and trying to hide a PROFESSIONAL's opinion. Any professional carries professional AUTHORITY because THEY ARE A PROFESSIONAL. THAT's the subject they spend months, years, DECADES in- they know it better than any LAYMAN, including all they laymen on this thread. I already SAID this- and I quoted it here. Is he "THE" authority? Silly claim- and only WD is making it. I already REFUTED it WHEN I INVITED A COUNTER-QUOTE FROM A DIFFERENT PROFESSIONAL. WD's failing to read MY posts, failing to read the PROFESSIONAL's article, and failing to understand the subject of presumption of innocence and its IRRELEVANCE OUTSIDE OF COURTS OF LAW. "Really?" No- only real in the false claim WD has tried to put in our mouths so he can "refute" the claim we never made. " then by that logic this man is also a professinal does his one opinion also count as right?" A) The man has many PROFESSIONAL opinions-we're discussing ONE. B) Nobody ever claimed any PROFESSIONAL is AUTOMATICALLY right. However, when anyone of sense wants to challenge the claim of a PROFESSIONAL, THEY BRING IN ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL. That's especially common in the courts of law- where "presumption of innocence" applies. (Since we're not in a court of law, "presumption of innocence" as a legal term does NOT apply.) Faulty logic- but then, since WD invented it to put in our mouths and pretend we said it, does that come as a surprise? Well he may be tired of it that people call him on poor reporting, but it does not change the fact that apparently others constantly see it as a problem. Perhaps he should ask himself why that is? He's tired of non-professionals who misunderstand his job, and how presumption of innocence works, who seek to dictate it to him anyway. How would you like it if someone ignorant of your job sought to explain to you how to perform it? WD the LAYMAN considers himself qualified to judge the performance of the PROFESSIONAL in a field WD has never studied. WD misses the same points other people miss- and the PROFESSIONAL explained why WD and others are wrong, in plain English. WD's been refuted by a PROFESSIONAL. WD's response? "Poor reporting." Actually, the context made it clear. He explained-in plain English- how presumption of innocence is irrelevant outside courts of law because the people who have trouble understanding it are LAYMEN. He released it for general consumption because the people who would read it-like us- are LAYMEN. If he was addressing people who had professional experience in the field, he would have been able to use technical terminology and would have skipped references to "as a citizen". The comments were from "people"- not "co-workers", not "lawyers", not "editors"- which means the AVERAGE schmoe- the LAYMAN. If you STILL can't see it, what else is new? You saw a PROFESSIONAL explain a point in his PROFESSION you didn't understand- and pronounced it "poor reporting." Par for the course, especially for this thread.

Indeed. Your turn.

Actually, it was one PROFESSIONAL's opinion. We can discuss medicine all day, but when someone can bring in a medical PROFESSIONAL's opinion, that carries more weight. Nobody on this thread is a legal PROFESSIONAL, but one was quoted as speaking on this subject, in context. If you have an article from a different PROFESSIONAL, say, one that figures first or second in the ratings, that refutes this PROFESSIONAL, feel free to post a link. He's tired of non-professionals who misunderstand his job, and how presumption of innocence works, who seek to dictate it to him anyway. How would you like it if someone ignorant of your job sought to explain to you how to perform it?

"I avoided the first thrust... he came at me again... I hit him with a left jab... there was a furious exchange of blows. The next thing I knew, his knife was at my throat... so I twisted it from his grasp and plunged it into his chest." "Rule of Acquisition number two-eighty- six: When Morn leaves, it's all over." "There's no such rule." "There should be." "There's nothing pretty about watching a man die. It's something I'll have to live with the rest of my life." "Go'Eveh... lu cha wabeh... Mo ka re'Chos." "N'Gos tlhogh cha!" "I am Quark, son of Keldar... and I have come to answer the challenge of D'Ghor, son of... whatever." "A brave Ferengi... who would have thought it possible?"

"I avoided the first thrust... he came at me again... I hit him with a left jab... there was a furious exchange of blows. The next thing I knew, his knife was at my throat... so I twisted it from his grasp and plunged it into his chest." "Rule of Acquisition number two-eighty- six: When Morn leaves, it's all over." "There's no such rule." "There should be." "There's nothing pretty about watching a man die. It's something I'll have to live with the rest of my life." "Go'Eveh... lu cha wabeh... Mo ka re'Chos."

I thought she called him "DAH-ta", when his name's pronounced "DAY-ta." Something like that. But I liked his explanation. "One is my name, the other is not." ========================== "I avoided the first thrust... he came at me again... I hit him with a left jab... there was a furious exchange of blows. The next thing I knew, his knife was at my throat... so I twisted it from his grasp and plunged it into his chest."

* FEBRUARY 27, 2009 Presumed Innocent? Bernie Madoff? Unless you're a juror, there's no reason to suspend judgment. By DAN ABRAMS People constantly complain to me about news coverage of criminal cases. "What happened to the presumption of innocence?" they ask at almost every turn. Well, I'm tired of it. I don't presume that Bernie Madoff is innocent. The same goes for toddler Caylee Anthony's mom Casey, or for any of the alleged mobsters on trial in New York, or most other high-profile defendants. Certain defense attorneys (or former Illinois governors who effectively decide to represent themselves) would have you believe that is somehow shameful, maybe even anti-American. As a citizen -- or even a TV legal analyst -- am I required to presume innocence, i.e., that the authorities arrest the wrong person in every case? Not a chance. Imagine how this might play out on television: "So Dan, how bad is it for (insert name of minor reality-show celebrity here) that the authorities found a pound of cocaine and four ounces of heroin on his person and in his car, the entire arrest was captured on videotape and the defendant confessed the drugs were his?" "Bad? Bob, I have to presume the defendant innocent, so I'll presume those drugs were planted by corrupt police officers well before the car came into focus on the tape. And that confession? Well, it must have been coerced." That would hardly reflect an effort to assess and evaluate the legal strategies and evidence as fairly and objectively as possible. While not explicitly articulated in the Constitution, the presumption of innocence has, through Supreme Court opinions, become a fundamental tenet of our criminal-justice system, and rightly so. Traced back to Deuteronomy, and reportedly embodied in the laws of Sparta and Athens, the presumption ensures that government, which has the enormous power to take away someone's freedom, assumes the burden to prove its accusation beyond a reasonable doubt, the properly demanding legal standard in criminal proceedings. Essentially we stack the legal deck in favor of the defendant. After all, the potential consequence (in most cases prison time) is so grave that we say we would rather let "10 guilty men go free than convict an innocent one." But unless I am sitting in the jury box armed with that power I, and any other nonjuror for that matter, have no obligation, moral or legal, to embrace that legal fiction. The same applies, for example, to hearsay evidence. It's generally inadmissible in court, and yet most of us live our lives based on what people we trust tell us they heard or learned. Some claim that, because legal banditos like me refuse to presume every defendant innocent, the prospective jury pool is polluted, thereby making it impossible for jurors to presume innocent a defendant in a high-profile case. Malarkey. That is why we have jury selection. The goal is not to find jurors who necessarily know nothing about a case, but to find jurors who can fairly evaluate evidence and determine guilt or innocence. No question, extensive media coverage can make the selection of a jury take longer. In a worst-case scenario, a change of venue would be the remedy. But defense attorneys who complain about poisoned jury pools are often really just saying that they think prospective jurors are lying when asked what they've heard about the case in the media. Watching jury selection during the O.J. Simpson civil case in Santa Monica in 1996 served as a reminder that, lo and behold, not everyone follows news that closely. Did every juror know about the criminal case that had concluded in downtown Los Angeles months earlier? Of course. Did they know some of the facts? Surely. But they were also not O.J. junkies who had followed the ins and outs of the case. They were open to rendering a verdict based on what they heard in court. What about those like CNN's Nancy Grace who seems to presume every defendant guilty? Criticize her if you like, but such behavior doesn't mean the rest of us must feign ignorance. We can question police and prosecutors without necessarily presuming they are corrupt or misguided. Early in the investigation of the Duke University lacrosse players accused of rape in 2006, some of the very same people who suggest that the presumption of innocence be applied in all aspects of society demanded that action be taken immediately against the students. The case is now regularly cited as an example of how important it is to presume all defendants innocent in the media as well. But that misses the point. Those of us who examined the evidence, even superficially, quickly realized the case was flimsy at best. The lesson there was not about presumptions but about the need to critically evaluate facts. Demanding that all of us presume every defendant innocent outside of a courtroom is to demand that we stop evaluating facts, thereby suffocating independent thought and opinion. There is nothing "reasonable" about that. Mr. Abrams is NBC News chief legal analyst and the CEO of Abrams Research.

The entirety of lcm's education was everything he learned through college (mostly, football) plus everything he learned in twi. Remember- he went straight from college to twi, and may never have worked for a paycheck a day in his life (he had that in common with vpw, who went from school to "ministry".) vpw KNEW what he built, KNEW when to ease up on the "marks", and when to reel in the "pigeons." lcm was "educated" in twi and thought it was all REAL. So, he didn't cover his tracks like vpw did.

To be specific, when vpw first found out about BG Leonard's class, he intended to take that class with the intention of subverting it, teaching it himself for money, and claiming it was his own work. So, when vpw first attended Leonard's class, it was a means to an end. 3 months later, vpw retook Leonard's entire class (previously he INTERRUPTED a class IN PROGRESS.) A few months after that, vpw taught Leonard's class as "vpw's 'Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class, then continued to do so, eventually renaming it "pfal" and adding material, stretching it to 3 classes. However, the few people who took Leonard's class were AUTOMATICALLY considered grads of the RtHST class because they were functionally identical. That, IIRC, was 1953. Since he'd been fishing for SOMETHING to plagiarize for years before that, I think the damage was done when vpw decided on "minister" as his CAREER.

Unlike some posters, I have never doubted your sincerity nor your honesty. You type what you think and feel no matter what that is. On the one hand, I find the candor refreshing. You're keen on reading every OTHER kind of Christian writer (among them some excellent choices), and credit the Holy Spirit for your understanding. However, one subject you "splunge" from (however you want to phrase it, it's the diametrically-opposed approach you do to all the other writers. I used a placeholder word to make the sentence more neutral.) If the Holy Spirit IS your guide, then the only possible consequence to be concerned about from reading a page or two would be that the Holy Spirit would guide you TO it. If you find the Holy Spirit guiding you TO a particular doctrine to be distasteful, I could easily see why it would be a subject to be avoided at all costs. Neither Mark nor myself said there was anything wrong with "REJECTING" this doctrine or any other, BTW. I think we both respect your right to form your own conclusions as to doctrine even if we disagree with your conclusions. (Not that Mark and I agree on everything, either, but we seem able to respect our differences without calling down judgement on the other's position. What doctrines you accept are between you, God, and (probably) whoever is nearest and dearest in your life. Those of us on the other end of the internet are not likely to be them. (We're certainly not you or God. :) ) My only disagreement was with your singling out ONE doctrine as "too dangerous to READ" while the others all got a free pass. However, hey, your approaches to doctrine, Scripture, books about doctrine, and anything else you read are not subject to my approval. We disagree on approaches just as we disagree on doctrine. Personally, I'm MORE concerned about your APPROACH than about your DOCTRINE. However, there's nothing I can do about that other than tell you I think it's unsafe, and that Mark recommended a more sound approach. What you do with my opinion's up to you.

No, it's a hard sell for many reasons, partly because that PARTICULAR poster's idea of "returning to pfal" includes taking books that have KNOWN, DEMONSTRATED imperfections and errors, and treating them as if INSTEAD they are PERFECT and are given by God Almighty, so good JC himself will read from them and teach us from the Orange Book HIMSELF. That's a hard sell anywhere because it's a pile of nonsense. The man set out to treat serving God as a CAREER, not a holy calling, from the beginning. Whenever possible, he set out to increase his audience, and to find something newer and better to SELL. When he found material he could SELL, he did so, lying about its origins as he saw fit. Meanwhile, the money meant for God went to feed the lusts of his flesh- alcohol, tobacco and the lusts of his eyes- a plane, a FLEET of motorcycles. (Not to mention setting up specific places and orchestrating the manipulation of women into having sex with them, even to the point of drugging them if they were unwilling.) This "ministry" was founded by a man who used The Ministry as an excuse to feed and sate his lusts. Some might see this as "complicated", but I think that's pretty straightforward. I do agree, however, it is "messy." It's certainly what "THE Teacher" wanted people to think, and what twi wants people to think now. However, the problems in my life have never been worthy to be compared to the rapes, simony and other felonies comitted by "The Teacher", so that's never been a motivator for me, even when I had no knowledge of his crimes. twi, however, had-and has- many problems. Chief among them is their POOR PERFORMANCE as a Christian organization, all while prating loudly of their superiority. Depends on who's running the advertisement. FEW of us (but still SOME of us) want to turn back the clock and live in the "original twi ministry", knowing what we know now. It might. In any event, it will involve elevating error-ridden doctrines and demonstrably-harmful practices to the level of Divine Edict once again. Almost all of us are quite done with being that stupid as to fall for it. I'd suggest and put forth that the PARTICULAR poster who asked you to cut-and-paste his advertisement FOR him do his OWN dirty work.

That first quote's obviously Dr Pulaski. Let's see, the USS Lantree....Oberth-class ship (creaky-old science vessel) IIRC, involved in science. Is this the one where "Darwin Station" bioengineered these kids so that they would survive anything, but their own bodies' own immune systems would kill off other humans?

Talking about amazing and misguided statements.... Did I miss something, or did Mark actually post that churches are "missing the gospel"? Is it possible that you're so determined to keep away Mark's POV that you're not only hiding from anyone who might teach you something you're not prepared to hear (like the Christians Mark mentioned without even getting into names, but some are geniuses), but you're not even reading what Mark has written? He said Did he say "churches" (that is, churches as a whole) are "missing the gospel" (that is, the entire Good News)?" If you can say "yes", then I can't help you. If you can read it and realize the answer is "no", then it helps to know what he DID say. He said that "a lot of preaching" (doesn't give a number of churches) "in other churches" (still doesn't give a number) Have "this gospel" as "conspicuously absent", that is, they don't preach it when they preach. Did he say "THE GOSPEL" was absent? No, not the entire "Gospel." What then, did he mean was missing? Scrolling back 1 post of his, we find "A belief that Jesus is going to return to earth and set up a kingdom." Is that Biblical? Yes. Do you need some verses on it? I can post them on request. John can read SDA materials and be exposed to them without special safety gloves. Afterwards, he doesn't run out and embrace their doctrine- he's not a Sabbaterianist. =============== You, I noticed, are completely unaware of there being non-twi writers who were both Biblical and Unitarians, but won't even consider they may have something useful among their writings. Mark: You: So, if you were to read their writings, you would automatically convert to their position? If that's true, then Mark's doctrine is correct and yours is false! Mark can be exposed to doctrines he disagrees with, consider them, and go about his merry way. If you, on the other hand, were exposed to doctrines Mark agrees with, you would find them so compelling you would change your positions to match his. Meanwhile, all this time you've been reading Sounds like the Holy Spirit, according to you, is on the side of Mark's beliefs, not yours. Otherwise, hundreds of hours of reading the other authors, plus the Holy Spirit's guidance, would surely be a sufficient innoculation against reading a page or 2 from someone who agrees with Mark. Unless, of course, as soon as you do start reading, the Holy Spirit enlightens the eyes of your understanding, and shows you that all your tightly-clenched beliefs are wrong, and what you're reading NOW is correct. I've been following the discussions, but I've been limiting my posting, because there's often a fine line between debating, discussing, and harassing, and I'm doing my best not to cross that line.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/mom_psychtechniq.htm http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_quickq&a.htm http://www.reiniersonneveld.nl/accd-breakthrough-EN.html

"If you love God, and love your neighbor as yourself, you can do as you fool well please." ============================= Ok. Take a minister who leaves his denomination with stories of "inappropriate behavior with his secretary". Then send him to where there are Christians and some people pushing "free love" and orgies. Why is he there? http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=160989 Jim D explained it. " As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe what is was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question and embarrassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy. We found his curiosity shocking. But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief. We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes. "You know that's all available," V.P. said. "God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'" I could not believe what I was hearing. I responded with, "I just thank God that He pulled our soul out of that pit of debauchery." When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her, "I don't believe what he said tonight, and I'm going to forget it. I must have misunderstood him." vpw told Jim God said orgies were "available." ============== ""Weirwille sought things to validate his position. He did NOT research the word and change his opinion to IT. I becamed pretty good friends with Jim D*0p. He told me that he, Jim, had a ministry where they were sexually loose and an anything goes kinda group out in California. Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture. D0*p never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation. Weirwille had these concepts, notions, urges, illnesses and tried to find a way to SELL them to us. He was not about to CHANGE his thinking according to scripture. He was not a researcher. He was similar to a lot of cult leaders. He had an idea and looked for people who would buy into it. Like Charlie Manson." ================= ""He also told a small group at Emporia one night to teach their children about their bodies, "you can brush their nipple with your hand and show them how it hardens. You can show them not to be ashamed of their body reactions" Then he shared about the African Tribe where the Father broke the hymen of the daughters to get them experienced in sex to prepare them for marriage -- he thought it to be beautiful. VPW had already let me see his dark side. Sitting there I thought OH MY GOD, this is subtle but he is teaching this group that it is beautiful to teach your daughters how to have sex, it is just not accepted in our culture! He was standing behind his sex problems and setting us up to have sex with our godly "family" as well as the earthly one."

Because otherwise they'd actually have to PAY ATTENTION. This way, they could PRETEND to care, and only look up when there's NOISE.

Someone mentioned this again...