WordWolf

Let's see.... Hero pretending to be a villain... If I remember my television correctly, that was the premise of "The Green Hornet". That had a movie last year. (No Bruce Lee, sadly, but otherwise...) So, is it THE GREEN HORNET?

A) When one is "talking down" to the audience, one sounds superior to them. (Me, I like to presume everyone else is about as smart as I am- but may need me to use less "high-faluting" words when making a case for something....and it's reasonable to think I should "make a case" for any claim I'm making. B) Please remember that JAL's audience is not "the general public." The general public has no reason to take him seriously- and does not. JAL's audience is "ex-twi'ers." Ex-twi'ers have the common history of twi, where many or most learned to shut off their thinking processes and just accept what the teacher was teaching-some still do that, with a veneer of a LITTLE thinking, and thinking A LITTLE thinking is ENOUGH thinking. So, JAL expects that a LITTLE study is enough for the ex-twi crowd. In other words, JAL thinks that you're still stupid enough to fall for light study and patronizing talk as the pinnacle of Bible education. He also thinks you're stupid enough that he can have a long history of teaching one thing, then turn around and teach AGAINST it, and do so with no apologies- and you'll just say "OK" with no explanation from him, or even an APOLOGY. There's no humility, no "I was once foolish enough to teach this, but I know better NOW" or anything else that shows he admits he ever was wrong and thinks he has IMPROVED. He exists at the "the teacher is always right" level, and thinks you're feeble enough that he can keep you as an audience member while he does that.

In twi and ex-twi circles, the idea you mentioned is called "the idiom of permission", and is where the active voice is switched for the passive voice. In doing a search for that, all I found were ex-twi posts or ex-twi sites. (The use of twi-specific terms like "the adversary", insistence on the KJV, and so on, are obvious flags, especially when they're all grouped together.) Since it ONLY comes up on ex-twi sites, all by itself that raises a few "red flags" for me. Anything that nobody's ever heard of EXCEPT ex-twi'ers? Can it possibly be accurate? Anyroad, so I looked around, and found what I think were the most intelligent pages on the subject. I found 2 of them. A quick skim will show that they are the same page (the contents are more than 95A% the same, down to the same words on the same spots) and are probably cut-and-pastes. I do not know if one is a cut-and-paste of the other. I do not know if both are cut-and-pastes of yet a third page. However, what I DO know is that they are the same article, and both pages clearly give credit to someone-and those are 2 different people in both cases. So, ex-twi and plagiarism seem to be co-inciding again. Unlike in vpw's day, it can be caught a LOT more easily now- a few clicks of a mouse versus research in a library. So, having said all that, and having given what I consider are prudent caveats, here are the links to those pages: http://thefaithofjesus.blogspot.com/2007/08/did-jesus-raise-himself-from-dead.html http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/177.htm Although this is not an article itself focused on that subject, it uses it clearly and with illustrations. So, IF the idiom of permission is correct, I would use this to help explain it. However, I still have unanswered questions concerning the entire subject, as you can see.

(bumping up to the top)

Osama bin Laden was met at The Pearly Gates by George Washington, who slapped him across the face and yelled, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!" Patrick Henry approached, punched him in the nose and shouted, "You wanted to end our liberties but you failed." James Madison followed, kicked him in the groin and said, "This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!" Thomas Jefferson was next, he beat Osama with a long cane and snarled, "It was evil men like you who inspired me to write the Declaration of Independence." The beatings and thrashings continued as George Mason, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans unleashed their anger on the terrorist leader. As Osama was dragged to his final, flaming reward, he saw an angel. Bin Laden shouted, "This is not what you promised me!" The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in Heaven. What did you think I said?"

I'll keep it lifted. As well as your sleep-schedule. :) Oh, and congratulations!!!!!

[some highlights from the article above..] Waco, Texas (CNN) -- Sheila Martin's children burned alive. God, she says, wanted it that way. "I don't expect you to understand," she says, Her calm, over those days, came when she heard his voice, talking to a negotiator, on the loudspeaker. "Now, do you know what the name Koresh means?" the voice boomed. "It means death." "We didn't have a plan for death," Martin says. "I wondered: Did someone change the plan without telling me?" David Koresh told his followers years before the men in uniforms arrived that a great apocalyptic battle with Babylon was coming and there would be destruction and fire and deaths. So, Martin says, David was right. "David is the messiah, and he's coming back," she explains, inspecting a bush that's beginning to produce sweet peppers. "Now we just wait for the kingdom." Doyle sits in his cluttered living room, detective paperbacks, tomes on theology and Laurel & Hardy videos crammed on bookshelves. The only item that has room to breathe is a photograph of his 18-year-old daughter, Shari. She was one of Koresh's "wives." In the photo, Shari is flaxen haired, flushed and smiling, hugging the family dog. That Koresh bedded his daughter makes Doyle shift in his seat, and when he speaks of it, his jaw tightens. Doyle says his daughter started having sex with Koresh when she was 14. Koresh fathered at least 13 children with sect followers and engaged in sexual acts with underage Davidian girls, according to the Justice Department, numerous affidavits of Davidians and interviews CNN conducted with survivors. Davidian Kiri Jewel testified during 1995 congressional hearings on the siege that Koresh slept in a bed with women and children, and she believed that he had impregnated a 14-year-old. Koresh, she said, often talked about how the young girls at the compound pleased him sexually. Jewel described in graphic detail how Koresh sexually assaulted her. She testified that she wasn't afraid of getting pregnant; she was too young, she explained. She'd not even started menstruating yet. Doyle insists that his daughter Shari, even at a young age, was capable of deciding whether to have sex with Koresh. There is silence for a moment. Doyle knows that trying to justify Koresh having sex with underage girls incites nothing but outrage from nonbelievers. And, initially, when David began preaching a message that his holy seed must be spread to any girl he preferred, married or in pigtails, Doyle admits he was bothered by it. "I wondered, I asked, 'Is this God or is this horny old David?' " But Doyle's concern didn't last long. "I couldn't argue because he'd show you where it was in the Bible." Sheila Martin, too, condones Koresh having sex with underage girls. "In the Bible, if a girl is old enough to menstruate, then she can be a wife," she insists. There are three crucial points to understanding the Branch Davidian brand of religion. First, God can appear in the flesh as a man. Second, that man doesn't have to be a good person. Third, if you question whether that man is God, then you are questioning God. In other words, the devil is responsible for your doubt. "Now," Doyle asks, "are you going to give the devil control?" [Who's like first crack at breaking this down?]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/04/14/waco.koresh.believers/index.html?hpt=C2 Waco, Texas (CNN) -- Sheila Martin's children burned alive. God, she says, wanted it that way. "I don't expect you to understand," she says, leaning her bird-tiny frame against a full shopping cart in the nursery aisle at a Super Walmart. Her pink shirt, flats and purse match the lilies, hydrangeas and clusters of jasmine she's buying. "Oh, look, they have forget-me-nots!" She caresses the blue petals and, like a child, puts her nose in the plant and inhales. "These will be perfect for the memorial." On Tuesday, Martin and a handful of other surviving Branch Davidians will gather at a hotel off a freeway in this dusty Central Texas town to remember the federal siege on their religious compound, an event that has become synonymous with the word Waco. On that day in 1993, a 51-day standoff between the armed Davidians and agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended in a fire and the deaths of at least 76 people. Among them were Martin's husband and four of her children. In the garden center, Martin nervously picks up her pace, examining each plant, smelling and touching their blooms, kneading the soil. The memories have sharpened each year, not dulled as she had hoped. "I just don't like to go back," she says. For days on end, grenades went flash-bang, she says, hurting her ears like nails shot into her temples. The kids were screaming, running down the hallway outside their bedrooms when the first shots were fired on February 28. Bullets hit the walls. They went through the walls. One shattered her bedroom window and zinged over her 6-year-old Daniel's head. She looked up. His face was bleeding, cut from flying shards of glass. Her 4-year-old, Kimi, was crying. The roar of the helicopters over the building sounded to her like war. She touches her chest. She still feels the vibration in her ribs from that blaring, awful music the FBI pumped on loud speakers, trying to drive them out. Her calm, over those days, came when she heard his voice, talking to a negotiator, on the loudspeaker. "Now, do you know what the name Koresh means?" the voice boomed. "It means death." "We didn't have a plan for death," Martin says. "I wondered: Did someone change the plan without telling me?" On March 21, she walked out of the Davidian complex, one of 21 adults and 14 children who took the chance to leave over those weeks. Three of her seven children were led out. Four kids stayed behind with their dad. On April 19, in a Salvation Army shelter where female followers were kept, she saw it on the news: A great fire. It was so big. "I said, 'Oh, please God, save them. Save them.' But my head knew they were gone." Martin doesn't visit the pauper's field in Waco where they are buried. "I'm not going to roll around on the dirt crying," she says. "We don't do that." Branch Davidians believe that when people die, they are simply "unconscious," waiting to be resurrected so they can travel to a kingdom cut off to nonbelievers. Lisa, 13; Sheila,15; Anita,18; Wayne Jr., 20; and Wayne Sr. -- they are just unconscious. They are just waiting. David Koresh told his followers years before the men in uniforms arrived that a great apocalyptic battle with Babylon was coming and there would be destruction and fire and deaths. So, Martin says, David was right. "David is the messiah, and he's coming back," she explains, inspecting a bush that's beginning to produce sweet peppers. "Now we just wait for the kingdom." True believers For more than a decade on every Saturday, the Branch Davidian Sabbath, Sheila Martin and Clive Doyle have gotten together to pray and discuss the Bible. They affirm to each other that David Koresh was God in the flesh. Then, they usually go to lunch or run errands. They aren't stockpiling machine guns, the chief reason the ATF raided the compound. Between them, Doyle and Martin don't even own a rifle. While they lived communally on the compound, Doyle and Martin now live in modest homes a few streets apart in Waco. He works at a thrift store. She works at a Christian day care center. Their bosses have asked them to leave their religion at home; otherwise, they've been treated kindly at work and by people in Waco who know about their pasts. The crank calls Doyle used to get have waned the past few years. When reporters call about doing stories on Koresh "true believers," they don't participate without talking it over with each other. "We've come to expect that a lot of people are going to make us look nuthouse crazy," Doyle said, his voice changing to a spooky tone, his face dead-pan. "So, we always like it if we just seem a little crazy -- it's an improvement." Tooling around Waco in Doyle's beat-up Town & Country minivan, the pair make an odd couple. She is from Boston and in her 60s, but looks, dresses and moves like a teenager. Doyle is a dark-humored Australian who wears thick bifocals and declared at 9-years-old to his amused mother, an Adventist, that he was officially a "servant of God." "I'm 70," he jokes. "I would like to know where this kingdom is already." Doyle's legs and arms are a quilt of skin grafts, wounds he says he suffered from jumping through a fiery hole in the burning compound to escape. The scars are ugly, he says, but nothing compared with the year he spent in prison before going to trial, along with other Davidians, on murder, conspiracy and a string of lesser charges. Along with the Davidians, four people with ATF were killed during the siege. Doyle was acquitted. Evidence that the government gathered, including recordings from bugs planted inside the compound before the FBI's final raid, showed Koresh ordered his followers to set the blaze. So did they? Doyle is asked. "Let's say the government created circumstances that led to the fire," he replied. While Martin and Doyle can be cagey, they are always polite and patient despite people constantly challenging their religious beliefs --- or dismissing them as crazy. "What am I going to do, argue with everyone?" Doyle says. "When people ask why we still believe in David and what he preached, after everything, I think they are asking because they really do want to understand. What gets lost --- what got lost years ago and resulted in the deaths of many people -- is that none of us were looking to convert the masses. If you joined us, then fine, but if you didn't, then go on with your life. "You don't have to believe as I do." Doyle sits in his cluttered living room, detective paperbacks, tomes on theology and Laurel & Hardy videos crammed on bookshelves. The only item that has room to breathe is a photograph of his 18-year-old daughter, Shari. She was one of Koresh's "wives." In the photo, Shari is flaxen haired, flushed and smiling, hugging the family dog. That Koresh bedded his daughter makes Doyle shift in his seat, and when he speaks of it, his jaw tightens. Doyle says his daughter started having sex with Koresh when she was 14. Koresh fathered at least 13 children with sect followers and engaged in sexual acts with underage Davidian girls, according to the Justice Department, numerous affidavits of Davidians and interviews CNN conducted with survivors. Davidian Kiri Jewel testified during 1995 congressional hearings on the siege that Koresh slept in a bed with women and children, and she believed that he had impregnated a 14-year-old. Koresh, she said, often talked about how the young girls at the compound pleased him sexually. Jewel described in graphic detail how Koresh sexually assaulted her. She testified that she wasn't afraid of getting pregnant; she was too young, she explained. She'd not even started menstruating yet. Doyle insists that his daughter Shari, even at a young age, was capable of deciding whether to have sex with Koresh. The teen was also clearheaded, he says, when she chose to remain inside the compound despite having the chance to leave. "She wanted to be with David and to hear and follow the message," her father says. There is silence for a moment. Doyle knows that trying to justify Koresh having sex with underage girls incites nothing but outrage from nonbelievers. And, initially, when David began preaching a message that his holy seed must be spread to any girl he preferred, married or in pigtails, Doyle admits he was bothered by it. "I wondered, I asked, 'Is this God or is this horny old David?' " But Doyle's concern didn't last long. "I couldn't argue because he'd show you where it was in the Bible." Sheila Martin, too, condones Koresh having sex with underage girls. "In the Bible, if a girl is old enough to menstruate, then she can be a wife," she insists. There are three crucial points to understanding the Branch Davidian brand of religion. First, God can appear in the flesh as a man. Second, that man doesn't have to be a good person. Third, if you question whether that man is God, then you are questioning God. In other words, the devil is responsible for your doubt. "Now," Doyle asks, "are you going to give the devil control?" Mount Carmel's new residents Last Sunday, Martin, Doyle, and Doyle's roommate, Ron Goins -- also a Branch Davidian but not a Waco survivor -- packed into Doyle's van and sped down a country road toward Mount Carmel, the property where the compound once stood. Its acreage is lush with wildflowers, and Martin is soon out of the car, traipsing through prairie grass, picking yellow primrose and butterfly weed. At the entrance now is a gate --- something Koresh and other members of his inner circle darkly joked they should have built before the raid, Doyle says. The gate is flanked by several mailboxes. At least three Davidians live on the property, including Charlie Pace, an early Branch member who Martin and Doyle say never got along with Koresh. They say church elders asked him to leave the compound. "Now Charlie is back to claim what he believes is his," said Doyle. Pace told CNN that he is "enlightened" and that God chose him to look for fresh believers. Down a dirt road on the property is a chapel that Branch Davidian supporters built in 1999. On this day, the doors stood open and sheet music and tambourines sat on dusty chairs. A large photograph of a bushy-haired Koresh mugging like Jim Morrison hangs near the door. The chapel reminds Sheila Martin of the first time this messiah, a high-school dropout in blue jeans, persuaded her to follow him. It was 1986. She and her husband, Wayne, a Harvard-trained lawyer, were going through a tough time. They were both Adventists and living in New York. They'd met at an Adventist function; he wooed her with his piano playing. The births of their first five children had gone smoothly, but their faith was being tested with their sixth, Jamie. He had contracted potentially deadly meningitis, an illness that would cripple him for life. "I prayed all the time, and I told Wayne that because his faith wasn't as strong as mine -- he'd started to drift into the secular world too much -- that our baby was dying," she recalled. When Jamie wailed in her arms, with a suffering she was incapable of relieving, Martin thought about her first date with her husband. They went to a performance of Handel's Messiah, the retelling of Christ's victory over sin and death. "My husband, he heard about what was happening in Waco," she said. The couple spent hours on the phone talking to the Branch Davidians there. They were always eager to listen, especially a guy who'd recently joined the group, David Koresh. Koresh mailed the parents a videotape of him preaching. "The scriptures just flowed out of his mouth. He had the spirit of God in him," Sheila says. Wayne Martin, the pianist, liked that Koresh played the guitar. The church was hurting for a leader with a youthful air. And their son needed all the in-person prayer he could get. The couple moved to Waco. Within days, the Martins were sure they'd made the right choice. When Jamie cried during prayer gatherings, and the others flinched, Koresh went right to the baby. "He would just pick him up and hold him real tight until he got quiet," Sheila recalled. Koresh told the Martins that their child needed more healing. Jamie and two of Sheila Martin's other children survived the fire at Waco. Kimi and Daniel spent the time after the siege with relatives while federal authorities questioned their mother. Now 22 and 24, Kimi and Daniel now live with their mother in Waco. They didn't want to be interviewed. Martin says they have rejected the Davidian faith and won't go to any religious events with her. This does not upset her, she says, because she knows that God will eventually change their minds. "I think they'll realize someday everything is under his order, and they'll understand that it's not really a choice." Jamie Martin spent his life severely handicapped. He died in 1998. One day Sheila Martin likes to paraphrase this scripture: "If you are allowed to drink from the cup of woe, of disappointment, remember it's a loving God who is holding the cup to your lips," she says. With this, she takes a sip through a straw of chocolate milk after lunch. "People want life to be sweet, but life isn't sweet and easy," she says. "Not here, not now, but it will be in the kingdom." What will the kingdom look like? It will be a physical place, Doyle and Martin say, probably in another country, maybe in Israel. Other than that, they don't know. "One day, we will have a better experience," Martin says. "We're not going to have to see everyone die." She imagines it will be like what Diana Ross sang about in the Wiz. Do you know the lyrics, she asks. Soon as I get home, soon as I get home In a different place, in a different time Different people around me I would like to know of that different world And how different they find me "Diana Ross is singing those words and I'm thinking about Mount Carmel and the way the light would reflect off the snow, and how the snow made everything look clean there," Martin says. "What she's singing about is being alone after a great storm that God created and she can't get out of her circumstance. "I'm going to keep praying, and wishing for that place, for me and Clive."

Mine was the videotaped pfal class. I was the first one in, in my family. I was a newly-minted Christian who had been raised with inadequate answers from my local church, so when I needed answers, it was obvious they were making it up as they went along. So, I discarded all of Christianity, thinking NONE of it would have the answers I needed. I spent about 3 years as a teenager sampling all manner of foolish talk. It was only after someone spoke some real Bible to me that anything really made sense. (It's true that if the truth is on the lips of anyone, it is still truth. The person who spoke it to me was an awful Christian-but they were probably the only one who was willing to dirty their white gloves and "meet me where I was." The locals in my area were better Christians than I'd known in church, so I wanted to learn all I could-which, of course, meant I signed up for "the class" as soon as I could scrape together the money. Locally, we were pretty good. I wasn't inside THAT long, and didn't get THAT close. The higher the twi tree you got, the more suspicious things got-but I wasn't there. It was when lcm started spazzing out publicly and demanding an oath of allegiance that I really saw any problems. I poked around the next ROA-which was after most of my locals had left to join the new geerite faction lcm had inadvertently started. By the end of the ROA, I clearly had seen enough to convince me that any accuracy I had seen even a year before was GONE- as were the people speaking it. twi was now all politics and religion, with a Bible disguise. Of course, as time progressed, the geerite faction was more evidently sliding off into error, also. So, I left everybody and just stayed unaffiliated. Technically, I still am- although I have associated with Christians in different groups informally. Looking back, of course there are a few warning signs in the taped class. At the time, I was still new and in "learn everything" mode, and missed them. However, if things had stayed the same, I would have begun figuring things out soon-I already had some complaints about how vpw defined some manifestations like "word of knowledge."

If you want to see what vpw valued, look at what he focused on. Example 1: A program of commitment to learn about God for 4 years. The curriculum was hazy, much of it was simple exercise or manual labor for free, and when ANYTHING professional was added, it was to teach the Bible students how to SELL-the Dale Carnegie stuff. The rest of the time, the people lived in large closets and ate disgusting, cheap food. Which they paid for. In hindsight, it's obvious the whole program was sort of slapped together at the last minute. Example 2: vpw wanted women to molest, rape, etc. First, he had all the women who would be on-grounds for a few years (in the corps program) write an autobiography. Out of those, he separated out those with a history that included sexual abuse, since it's known that women who have been victimized sexually in their past are easier to victimize in the present or future-since their sense of what is normal and acceptable has been damaged. So, he now had a "pool" of names of women who might be easier targets. From those, he weeds out those who are well-connected with lots of family in twi, and those with tough husbands who might beat the ca-ca out of him if he laid a hand on their wife. He now had a much shorter list of his most viable targets. Then, he had a number of places which he had prepared where he could be alone and undisturbed with a woman, that also contained some sort of bed or couch (a cushy office, an RV reserved for him, etc.) He enlisted his NETWORK of criminal accomplices, who arranged-when he asked- for one of the women to be told to meet him at one of those at a specific place and time. When they arrived (thinking only the most noble things about why they could possibly be called to speak to vpw), he then contrived to have alcohol on-hand and to talk them into sharing it with him (which would reduce their inhibitions.) Once it took effect, he would spin a tale about how his wife was physically unable to satisfy him, and how he needed (not "wanted", "needed") their help to cheat on his wife, who didn't mind, and how God didn't mind either and wanted vpw's so-called "need" met, and how "if you're able to take it", God doesn't mind adultery and you can ignore all the verses that clearly say so.... Some women balked- which is why at times, he resorted to drugging them unconscious. In each case, right after the women left his presence, he would then have-by arrangement- one or more of his criminal cadre follow them around, and "exit-counsel" them about how vpw was right and reinforce his lies. They also monitored the woman for signs she might tell someone about vpw committing a felony- and vpw immediately had those women kicked out of twi, sent home on a slow bus, and immediately savaged their reputations back home so that no one would believe them even if they could bring themselves to speak about it after having been treated so horribly. And he did it all while keeping up a public persona of a man who would never consider doing such a thing- so tales of his crimes could easily be disbelieved. That took a LOT of planning and a LOT of work. vpw cared A LOT about victimizing women and feeding his lusts for sex, alcohol and tobacco. vpw cared A LITTLE about the way corps. vpw was not sent to jail because he covered his tracks FAR too well. In regards to sex crimes, he was a criminal mastermind.

Daniel 3: 14-18 (KJV) 14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands? 16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. Daniel 3:14-18 (NASB) 14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15"Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?" 16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17"If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18"But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up." [Now, THAT'S some men of God who refused SECULAR deliverance/release. The world was not worthy of Shadrach, Mesach, and Abed-nego. Even if God did NOT deliver them from a painful death, they would STILL not worship other gods, or bow their knee to a graven image....and they didn't need to compose an answer or confer amongst themselves before saying so. Sir. since you asked, OUR God is able to deliver us from a blazing furnace. Even if He does NOT, we STILL won't serve your gods or worship your statue. To be so prepared to suffer and possibly die horribly JUST for doing what God said... an alien perspective to twi leadership and teaching....]

[Naturally, that proceeded from another section of Scripture that vpw taught on a number of times and mangled the understanding. In fact, it was one of the keynote teachings at ROA 77 ("Healing.") It was based on his insistence upon his toxic "word-faith" doctrine, and mangling the Scriptures by trying to shoehorn them into his cage. This particular mangling was so elementary, that even chris g33r taught on the same verses later-and taught them correctly. Hebrews 11:32-39a (KJV) " 32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, Hebrews 11:32-39a (NASB) 32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, [We have men of God of old, all unnamed, who believed God and took a stand. All of them were APPROVED through their faith (believing, etc), God said the world was not worthy of them. But vpw found an excuse to bad-mouth them. vpw said that the meaning of Hebrews 11:35b was that the men of God who were tortured had the option of having been delivered (released) by God Almighty, but elected instead to drop dead, so that they could skip ahead to the "better resurrection" (i.e. the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, aka the resurrection of life, as opposed to the 2nd, the resurrection of the unjustified, the resurrection of judgment.) cg, among others, had no difficulty seeing that this was NOT the meaning. The deliverance/release spoken of there was a secular one. When offered the chance to give up, to forswear God and have their torture ended, elected instead to stand for God even when it meant they only had more torture to look forward to. By their enduring commitment, they obtained a better resurrection (the first, the one of life, the one of the just.) So, it wasn't a verse about people "surrendering" and dying, who failed to believe. It was a verse about people who REFUSED to surrender, who held fast to their beliefs, their faith, even in the face of continuing torture. Not that vpw knew anything about personal sacrifice to stand for God. He seemed to never understand the concept because it was too alien to him.]

I've seen Christians accept that here and there. To see it on a bigger scale will probably require the personal presence OF Christ, face to face.

Let us not forget that twi DOES continue to twist facts. When the actual numbers of people graduating their corps went into the single digits, rather than say "we graduated 5 people", they suddenly switched to announcing what PERCENTAGE of the grads were doing what. (20% did one thing, 20% another- which means 1 person did one and 1 person did another..)

twi's leading criminals have also never been above "moving the goalposts" and deceiving people, either. Posters have commented how they were told- IN WRITING- that once they completed the corps, they would have the option whether or not to accept assignments from then on, or whether to move forward in the community of their choice in the life of their choice, using what they learned at their discretion. (Presumably, running a fellowship, teaching, etc.) However, once the signed and were on grounds (and isolated from their support network), they were told they had made a LIFETIME commitment to twi, and now, for the rest of their lives, they were effectively slaves whom twi could order around for life. twi could tell them to move (and where to move), twi would require them to stop their lives for 2 weeks a year, at their own expense, and work both weeks through Corps Week and the ROA, etc, etc. "Lifetime commitment to serve God" was morphed into "slave to whatever twi's board decided they should have to do." twi also clearly expected-and expects- BLIND LOYALTY. One poster asked lcm PERSONALLY about that back in 1988. When lcm imitated vpw's previous calls for loyalty, this poster phoned lcm and said it sounded like lcm wanted him to follow lcm BLINDLY. lcm replied to him that THIS WAS ALREADY WHAT THE POSTER WAS DOING. The poster disagreed, told lcm he could kiss his burro, and hung up the phone, which pretty much ended their communication. "When I recieved the Loyalty letter in the mail I immediately called LCM and by some miracle after leaving a message he actually called me back. When I asked if this letter was a call to blindly follow him he said I had been doing this all along. I then told him thats what he thinks he could "kiss my @$$". I think I was dropped from the rolls of the Way Corps that next morning. " [Please note the curse censor changed what the poster said lcm could kiss. I read the initial post and posted accordingly.]

You could always tell when vpw was lying- his lips were moving. There's little reason to think he got to SEE Reagan, let alone meet him. We discussed this before on other threads...

A quick rundown, Tony. A) Paw runs this site, which means it has a moderator (volunteer) staff who step in and try to keep things from getting TOO far out of hand. The rules for posting are here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/forums.html They are simple: be courteous, don't make it personal, don't harass people, don't make personal attacks. If you can't do that, then don't do it HERE. (There's also some understandings about not discussing people who don't post here and have gone on with their lives post-twi. Those should be written up someplace.) Simple rules, but some people have pushed the limits or gone over the line. That's why some people have earned warnings, heavier moderation, and "enforced vacations." Some tone it down and return, most do not. Some people just need a "nudge" and they calm down, but some won't behave unless forced to. (Reproof versus 1000 stripes.) So long as the rules are followed, Paw leaves everyone alone. Simply following the Golden Rule ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") and the Silver Rule ("what you don't want others to do, don't do to them") pretty much ensure little need of moderation- at least of the posters who do that. B) Rascal's a poster who didn't START trouble. Trouble followed Rascal around. Rascal would post on horrible acts victor paul wierwille performed- rape, molestation, making abortions customary when in the corps or on staff and so on- and immediately a handful of posters would engage in personal attacks on her. The posts were to accomplish 2 things- 1) to silence discussion on what a sleazebag victor paul wierwille was, and the horrible things he did when the cameras were off and most people didn't know and 2) to try to get people who exposed victor paul wierwille as a plagiarist, rapist, molester, and general sleazebag to feel too pressured to continue posting and shut up. For some reason, the guys who posted about how victor paul wierwille was a slave to his own ego and a slave to his own lusts generally weren't attacked quite so harshly. There was something about women speaking up and thinking for themselves and exposing the immmoral, unBiblical, unChristian behavior and character of victor paul wierwille that really cheesed off a handful of people who just can't deal with the reality. It's bad enough that they were tricked, it's worse that people expect them to deal with the reality that victor paul wierwille belonged in prison for various felonies and was a poor Christian when they wanted to put him instead on a pedestal- but a WOMAN was speaking about it. That just chafed their pants. So, she'd post, they'd attack her posts, and others would rebut their attacks. Thus, someone now called that "wars". That's a new term for it. C) The GSC is a place where people can speak their minds in lots of directions (so long as they don't do it abusively). There will occasionally be harsh words, there will usually be disagreements on ANY subject. Which would you rather have- a chance to say what you REALLY think, or a place where all you're allowed to say is what's approved by the organization? In most ex-twi circles, you only get the latter. Currently, only the GSC and Ex-way Vision allow you to speak freely. So, either can look a bit chaotic, tense, or argumentative. That's the price for free speech. (So long as it's not abusive.)

1) Does it save money? Yes- the hotel gives a rate because nobody else wants to drag people from their loved ones on holiday weekends. And the participants all still have to cover their own expenses- food, hotel room, and a separate fee for the class itself. (Odd how a group with facilities that were DESIGNED so they could run classes would decide to sub-contract out the physical details, no? But it saves them money this way. It's more expensive for the STUDENTS, but they don't count and are DISPOSABLE. 2) Does it cement loyalty? Yes- by removing the normal opportunities to socialize with families and be human for a time, twi deprives its FOLLOWERS (their term, not mine) of the chance to fit into society and makes them more dependent upon twi for their socialization, friends, and support networks in general. So, if you want to do something or need help, you're dependent upon twi people for any assistance- which means twi can exert influence and shut you down. This is the kind of medieval thinking that made the European witch-hunts such a profitable enterprise for the secular authorities and the RCC. twi will condemn the RCC but do what they can to imitate practices from it they think can get them more money or loyalty. Not that they actually UNDERSTAND the practices- pale copies are sufficient for twi, the people are not worth more effort because twi has always considered its FOLLOWERS as DISPOSABLE no matter what they said. By treating them as DISPOSABLE but continually mouthing platitudes about how precious they are, twi has fooled and continues to fool lots of FOLLOWERS as to how DISPOSABLE they are. Hey, Mrs W was considered DISPOSABLE- so Joe Believer should really think about how fast they will show him the door if he doesn't cower in a prostrate manner before their whims.

With vpw, there were 2-3 things that motivate all the "decisions that make no sense." Whenever it's obvious logic didn't drive a decision, look at 2-3 things to see why they were done. 1) Does this method save money? 2) Does this method cement loyalty? 3) Does this method facilitate vpw using women for his lusts? 1) vpw always paid for the best for himself. Fly COACH? No, First Class or his OWN PLANE. Eat what everyone ate? No, PRIVATE COOK. Live in a small space? No, lavish quarters, and a mobile home for all the comforts of home when traveling. But, of course, a double-standard for everyone else. They ate disgusting foods in insufficient amounts after performing physical labor all day. He saved lots of money on their foods, and got manual labor out of them- and got them to PAY for working! They lived in essentially large closets- enough for a long weekend, but living like that's not acceptable in developed countries. But it saved money. Whenever he moved people, it was by bus, or for free if he could manage it. So, HITCH-HIKING, which is FREE for twi. Free in terms of MONEY. If would occasionally cost them PEOPLE- but people were DISPOSABLE. And when the people were DISPOSED, they were sent home- on a BUS. Even though most of them were emotional wrecks and could not handle a bus ride ALONE. Small wonder some of them were lost for days or NEVER MADE IT HOME and committed suicide instead. But hey, that didn't cost him any money- he didn't pay for their mental recovery or funeral. Oh-and climbing rocks is also free. Insufficient amounts of preparation were made for the climbs many times- but they saved lots of money. Oh, some people were crippled, lost toes to freezing cold, etc, but that didn't cost twi anything... Finally, we have had LOTS of incidents with people at "Root locales" who needed immediate medical attention. In incident after incident, there was NOTHING prepared for emergencies. Lots of people together for long periods of time, and not even someone on-site trained in emergency medical procedures? ONE nurse, ONE paramedic, ONE EMT, that would go a long way in addressing emergencies when they happened. Ever go to a freaking grammar school or a SKATING RINK where they didn't have a trained medical person on staff? But, of course, even one additional staffer costs money... 2) Sometimes the most senseless things were done to prove loyalty. Take people who were not at the peak of health or older, and shove them up a cliff also. This was more to demonstrate they'd do senseless things if vpw required it. Lots of things were about cementing loyalty. Groups of corps, once isolated from home, were NOW told they had made a lifelong commitment as bond-slaves to twi and to do whatever they said- although this was phrased more diplomatically. (And they paid twi for the privilege of that program, and twi would never have to pay a cent for any orders- these people were expected to cover all expenses THEMSELVES. twi was an efficient money-making operation. And still is- fools still pay twi for lots of orders and cover all expenses out-of-pocket.) Corps were whisked away for a weekend and exposed to indoctrination sessions, supposedly so they could handle attempts at deprogramming. lcm himself was chosen to succeed vpw, according to vpw, because he never questioned vpw's orders. (With all the more qualified candidates, vpw chose entirely based on who was most loyal to him, not who was best-suited for twi. That's why twi has continued with horrible choices as top leaders, lcm, rfr....) 3) Lots of little things on campus set things up so vpw could select women, target them, then victimize them. Corps candidates were required to submit an autobiography. If women mentioned a past that included an abuse incident (experts have testified such women are easier victims for future abuse), then vpw separated out their files. From those, he eliminated all women with tough husbands, all women with strong family connections in twi, and all women with self-confidence or hints of independence. Then he contrived (with assistants among his top staff like the Moneyhands and Gear) to arrange for one of these women to meet him privately in some place with a bed set up. (vpw had an office with something set up, and a mobile home office with a bed, and so on. Why does one man need so many little private places with lots of beds? Everyone else lives in a closet....) Then he would try to get them to drink alcohol, and lay on a detailed rap excusing alcohol use, sex outside of marriage, and so on. In some cases, he contrived to have someone interrupt if it didn't seem to be working, in other cases, he drugged the women and did things to them when they were unconscious. We've had women testify to all of these-including women who saw vpw try this on them while holding their autobiography in his hand. So, ask those three questions whenever trying to figure out why vpw did anything. They answer most of the lingering questions.

Actually, rapes and DEATHS didn't stop the last program. When vpw himself was addressed about the dangers of participants being RAPED as the direct consequence of dangers he was REQUIRING that were not necessary except for his arbitrary rules, he went on the record, telling the Way Corps that they COULD get raped ANYWHERE, so-despite him INCREASING the risk, he was going to keep insisting on putting them deliberately in danger. Obviously, he considered his program and his whims to be more important than human lives, the lives of those for whom Christ died- since he chose to assign a higher priority to his whims and program than to HUMAN LIVES.

I am not ashamed of the gospel-it's the power of God for salvation to every one that believes. (Of course, YMMV.)

In fairness, Bramble, I've participated in at least one discussion-thread with Mrs Iam, where we both contributed, discussed, disagreed and agreed, with thinking, reasoning and evaluating involved. In short, a real discussion. She's offered more here than just, say, adding fuel to the fire of flame-wars. If that wasn't the case, I'd consider the term "sidekick" to apply, but I think it does not.

http://sowersonline.com/newsletter.aspx "The bottom line is this. I lay down for no one. I surrender to no one. I stand for my Lord Jesus Christ and I stand for God. I plan on speaking to the whole city wherever it is and uprooting the devil's kingdom myself and I will step on anyone and anything that gets in my way. So who's with me? Who wants to join the fight? Who wants to help the people? We're going to let them walk on our feet until they can walk on their own. Nurture them up in the word and love them." Now this is another example of slogans and buzz-words TAKING THE PLACE OF THINKING. No, stop and think about what you're saying before you say it, and especially before you hit "send". If all you do is spit back slogans and catchphrases, then you'll find you contradict yourself because YOU DIDN'T THINK FOR YOURSELF. Example: Sentence 1: "I will step on anyone and anything that gets in my way" Seconds later, Sentence 2:"We're going to let them walk on our feet until they can walk on their own. Nurture them up in the word and love them." (Yes, Sentence 2 was 2 sentences, but the idea continued, so I included it.) In case anyone suspects otherwise, this post was specifically to address the external page I linked to, and the quote FROM that page I quoted. If anyone from this site thinks it was also about them, they are grossly mistaken and should consider some time with a therapist to possibly get a healthier perspective and sense of boundaries.

Bramble: " Ever notice how every thread j-iam posts on becomes ABOUT j-iam? Been that way for years. Have had him on ignore since his last run through GSC, Sigh. It doesn't change. Ruins thread after thread unless you find the topic of j-iam interesting." IMHO, it happens a LOT more now than it used to. It stands out so much more than that, even, because he's currently the only chronic derailer currently derailing. What's amazing about that is that we even had a previous chronic derailer post recently, and not derail a thread at all. lovematters: "It appears to me that he replies to posts (often personal attacks) directed at him. Perhaps if the posters who call him names or make up psychological diagnosis about him poured some cool water on their heads-on-fire then maybe the threads would be shorter." It may APPEAR that way to you, but he also responds to anything he THINKS is directed at him, which may have NOTHING to do with him. I posted about something "drive-by posters" do, and he claimed I was trying to shut him up. Perhaps if he cooled himself down and didn't type angry, he wouldn't make mistakes like that, and suddenly make things about him, derailing existing discussions. Then threads would DEFINITELY be shorter. I'm sure few posters other than lovematters miss how this is NOT true, since they're around and watch thread after thread get pulled off course by the same poster. Once Johniam has decided some subject that's been posted is about him, the thread's pretty much shot. This very thread's not a bad example of that. Even the original poster has noticed how others responded to HIM, continuing his discussion, but John made it about John, geisha779: "This is an interesting and provocative question. I have wondered the same thing too...are there talking points issued somewhere? Good observation...thanks for making me think. Where else did we hear that term baby and bathwater used?" My post was never ABOUT John. Did he mention babies and bathwater, or being tripped out? I was addressing a "HANDFUL OF PHRSASES" and the original poster SPECIFICALLY. I even quoted the post I was responding to. How did John ever enter the discussion? "I think he was trying to bully me into silence." "WWs message was very clear." For John to think it was "very clear" I was even ADDRESSING HIM, let alone "trying to bully him", it's obvious he's not reading the same posts everyone else is reading. The rest of us discussed the handful of phrases and moved on. socks was nice enough to identify their source. socks: "I'll leave "the" alone, it's earned it's place. Baby and bathwater was fine the first 100 times I heard it in the context of Wayfer's leaving the Way. Think it was in a John Lynn writ. John Lynn's about as glib as it gets and is kind of a poster child for fast-talking-now-u-see-it-don't-worry-if-you-don't-get it. So it didn't surprise me there. Then it seemed to gather steam in ex-Wayfer circles. THIS and many other LINKS googled can shed light on the origin of the phrase. As always I'd recommend some comparative reading to get a handle on it. (note to self: check on "handles" and possible origins relating to "scandals" and the relationship of rhyming to meaning). But I get your point johniam. Use the word "available" in certain circles and they'll go nuclear on you (note to self: check that one too). And that's good because using that word post-Way indicates the need for a good brain scrub to avoid a rash of bad dreams populated by people dressed in polyester suits carrying bibles. Yet - I admit it. I'm tired of that phrase "baby and the bathwater". It's "glib" - it indicates to me a lack of thought, an easy way to refer to a topic that is really much larger and deeper. (snip)" John rarely seems to let what the posters actually post keep him from objecting to something- even if it's nothing at all like what the posters ACTUALLY SAID...

vpw, "The Way:Living in Love", pg-199 "WOMEN NEVER TELL THE TRUTH." vpw, same book, pg-200 (Speaking of JE Stiles and Mrs Stiles) "She said something to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said, 'That's none of your business.' That was it, and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her." vpw put his misogyny in black and white for all of us to read. It didn't alarm him because he's USED to thinking like he was depicting himself there.