WordWolf

You only noticed it on THAT tape? ;) Actually, depending on the year, he could sound pretty nutty on the ROA tapes.

I'm sure Raf knows it, but he seems a bit busy...

"....Thank God..... ...I mean, GET HIM!!"

"I'm proud to recall that at no time at all and with no other recourses but my own resources, with firm application and determination... I made a fool of myself!" "After the dust had cleared, half the cast had a beard. And I'm the one, as you can see, for whom the bell tolls merrily." "Rules of Chivalry be hanged! Ravenhurst, take that nincompoop, and knight that nincompoop by noon tomorrow!" " Why be gloomy, cut off thy nose to spite thy face? Listen to me. A nose is hard to replace." "After months of pleading for just this kind of action, what makes you think that anybody - anybody could make me reveal the identity of my confederate?" "Because they'd put you on the rack, crack your every bone, scald you with hot oil, and remove the nails off your fingers with flaming hot pincers." "I'd... like to withdraw the question." "You'll never outfox The Fox!" "When do we start?" "Tonight." "Good. I’d like to get in, get on with it, get it over with, and get out. Get it?" "Got it." "Good." "First, plan one. Are you sure you can dispose of my lords Brockhurst, Finsdale, and Pertry? "Are they married?" "Yes…" "Order flowers for the widows. Get it?" "Got it." "Good." "Dire news, sire! I've just come from the forest. The child lives!" "The child lives?!" "Aye, sire." "How know you that this is the royal child and not some outrageous impostor?" "Because sire, disguised as a member of their group, I saw him. And I can assure you that like his royal ancestors, and on the same spot as his royal ancestors, he bears the royal birthmark." "The... purple pimpernel?" "The purple pimpernel." "I am Giacomo, Giacomo, my fame before me rings --" "Sir Giacomo! You should be in armor! And you, maid Jean, in the stands." "If I die, just pray that I die bravely." "You'll not die, you'll not have to fight him. Griswold dies as he drinks the toast." ====================================================================== "...The pellet with the poisle is in the flaggle with the chalice...." "...The poison's in the dragon with the pestle...." "...Eh, ah, the chazzle is in the poisley with the plellice with the plan- eh, plaglice..." "The pellet with the dragon's in the pestle with the poi-" "The pezley with the poisle is..." "The dragon with the poisle's in the pestle..." "Pazzle with the fleegle..." "The poisley with the plazzle is the plazzle with the ploizle... The chalice with the pa... the flagon with the cha... the floizle with the flagon is the chalice with the poison..." ============================ NOW you know this movie!

IF they did, it's news to me, and it would have been long before this movie. It might have seemed a little like this one, however. Although I think this is a little closer to the Marx Brothers, for reasons you can probably figure out once you can name the movie. The "purple pimpernel" was apparently a spoof on a completely different story.

The government got nervous. twi had (and has) some gun nuts. twi used to have a "gun safety" program administered by the state of KANSAS (IIRC) at the Emporia site. They encouraged sll the on-site Corps to take it. Take that piece of information, then add the conspiracy theories about a secret world government and the breakdown of civilization and the MAL packs so we could head for the hills well-prepared, and it's small wonder the government wanted to check tbings out. So, PROBABLY, they sent some people on-grounds during an ROA. I say PROBABLY because I saw no evidence they ever appeared at the ROA except vpw saying they did. He lied so often and so freely- especially about government and conspiracies- that I'd EXPECT him to lie about this. What he said was that he knew they were around and were looking for guns, if they'd asked, he would have had them shown around, that twi didn't have guns, and didn't need them-they needed God. Which sounded pious, but was obviously a disconnect from the other stuff, like the MAL packs and recommending the Corps learn to shoot and so on....

I can only really speak on my own behalf on this one. So I'll say that in my case, I started out a lot hotter, but I cooled off in twi for a simple reason: the local leadership felt THREATENED by me and acted out of FEAR, ultimately succeeding in cooling my "temperature" enough that miracle-type stuff went from "expected" to "rare" like it happened for them. I've noted it pointed out even on tape sometime, how new people often get such results, then they settle in and that stops. I think it's because twi strangled their confidence and simplicity about the things of God. It would not surprise me to hear that it was fairly common for "leadership" to CLAMP DOWN on that sort of thing out of fear.

Nothing so recent. Look at that last quote. What are the next few lines? Picture those and this movie should be obvious....

"I'm proud to recall that at no time at all and with no other recourses but my own resources, with firm application and determination... I made a fool of myself!" "After the dust had cleared, half the cast had a beard. And I'm the one, as you can see, for whom the bell tolls merrily." "Rules of Chivalry be hanged! Ravenhurst, take that nincompoop, and knight that nincompoop by noon tomorrow!" " Why be gloomy, cut off thy nose to spite thy face? Listen to me. A nose is hard to replace." "After months of pleading for just this kind of action, what makes you think that anybody - anybody could make me reveal the identity of my confederate?" "Because they'd put you on the rack, crack your every bone, scald you with hot oil, and remove the nails off your fingers with flaming hot pincers." "I'd... like to withdraw the question." "You'll never outfox The Fox!" (I would have thought the first and last quotes would have done it. Ok, going to be a touch less obscure, I think...) " "When do we start?" "Tonight." "Good. I’d like to get in, get on with it, get it over with, and get out. Get it?" "Got it." "Good." "First, plan one. Are you sure you can dispose of my lords Brockhurst, Finsdale, and Pertry? "Are they married?" "Yes…" "Order flowers for the widows. Get it?" "Got it." "Good." "Dire news, sire! I've just come from the forest. The child lives!" "The child lives?!" "Aye, sire." "How know you that this is the royal child and not some outrageous impostor?" "Because sire, disguised as a member of their group, I saw him. And I can assure you that like his royal ancestors, and on the same spot as his royal ancestors, he bears the royal birthmark." "The... purple pimpernel?" "The purple pimpernel." "I am Giacomo, Giacomo, my fame before me rings --" "Sir Giacomo! You should be in armor! And you, maid Jean, in the stands." "If I die, just pray that I die bravely." "You'll not die, you'll not have to fight him. Griswold dies as he drinks the toast." Most of you have seen this one, more than once, I'd expect....

Please watch your timeframes. Immediately following the readings of POP, lcm went into a funk, then into a relative silence and thence into a FOG- he HIMSELF described 1986-1988 as "FOG years" since he wandered in a fog. He was convinced vpw was this superhuman, and was convinced this "superhuman" was displeased with his performance. Eventually, he "got back on the horse", and went back to copying vpw. vpw had once quietly thrown out an entire Way Corps. Then he allowed them to rejoin- but only after swearing an oath of allegiance to him personally. So, lcm copied vpw. He demanded all the leadership swear an oath of allegiance to him personally. And answer other than "yes, I will BLINDLY follow you no matter what" was treated as if it was a full rejection of him, twi, and God Almighty. Most of the people he said that to refused to do such a stupid thing- leading to 4/5 of them being fired together from twi. P@n@r3ll0 and the others swore the oath in 1988/1989, which is how they climbed the ladder. FWIW, I think the insanity followed the refusal of most to blindly follow lcm, and built thru the early 1990s until about 1993-1994 when lcm really started to sound unhinged.

It's page after page, with a few recurring themes. A) In Europe, only chris geer had the ability to get anything done. Anybody else was either an unbeliever worshipping filthy lucre, or a Christian who was chronically unable to fill any of the many tasks needed to get done at their new Scotland headquarters. They couldn't find a cook, get someone to competently run a copy machine, do maintenance, etc etc. So chris had to run around and do the jobs of DOZENS of people. So, in Europe, nobody was competent. B) The problems in Europe were the results of people at hq (more than one) strangling the growing European twi activity. So, not only was nobody competent in Europe, but there was incompetency and malice at hq. C) The current bot was all avoiding God and looking to the world, period. Don W would soon claim to be getting spiritual, but it would be a lie. So, in other words, in all of twi, possibly the only competent person left alive was chris geer. D) All kinds of "problems" afflicted twi from the top, but they were vague things that could never be specified. (The TRUTH was the problems afflicting twi from the top were put in place by vpw, but even on his deathbed, he'd never DIRECTLY admit to DOING WRONG and ABUSING HIS OFFICE.) So, the whole thing is vague and heartbreaking-if you subscribe to the notion that vpw was THE man of God for our time, unique in the past 2000 years-- and not what he was in truth- a drugging, raping plagiarist who went into ministry work to abuse it, and harmed God's precious ones without conscience, for whom Christ died. If there had been an actual, real, CONCRETE problem it addressed, there would have been some sort of SOLUTION- because solving a problem first requires IDENTIFYING THE CORRECT PROBLEM. (Example: Adultery in twi was a problem. It was never fixed because the identified problem was "rebellious employees" and not "adultery and fornication".) He read that to people, I hear, at least 3 different times. Was that reading the one where he brandished a firearm before he began, or was that a different reading?

First of all, he noted that it was what we think of as Asia MINOR, all of THAT heard in 2 years, 3 months, but he makes light of the difference. Second of all, I knew he was wrong because I read the book of Philemon. Paul wrote to Philemon about Onesimus. Onesimus ("profitable" or "useful") was a servant to Philemon. Onesimus had run away, then met Paul in prison and got saved. Paul wrote to Philemon to smooth the path Onesimus had to walk when he returned to Philemon. ====================== 1Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: 3Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 4I thank my God, making mention of thee always in my prayers, 5Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints; 6That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. 7For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother. 8Wherefore, though I might be much bold in Christ to enjoin thee that which is convenient, 9Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ. 10I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: 11Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me: 12Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels: 13Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel: 14But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. 15For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever; 16Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord? 17If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself. 18If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account; 19I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides. 20Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in the Lord. 21Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say. 22But withal prepare me also a lodging: for I trust that through your prayers I shall be given unto you. 23There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus; 24Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers. 25The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. ===================== Paul seemed to think Onesimus' purpose for fleeing was his later salvation, having heard from Paul during that time Paul was in prison. Myself, I'm particularly thankful for the letters written from Paul while he was in prison. I don't know what us modern folk would read if they didn't exist. Ephesians 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. Philippians 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. Philippians 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Colossians 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: Colossians 4:18 The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen. 2 Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

NO. Yes. No.

HA HA HA! When was the last time you read "Passing of the Patriarch"? http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-miscellaneous/passing-of-the-patriarch.html It's HARDLY an account of actual "dirty laundry." As a whole, the document is loaded with various delusions. It was subscribed to because the people who subscribed to it were delusional. He may well have been shell-shocked. No matter how you slice it, the document's far too silly to take seriously.

"I'm proud to recall that at no time at all and with no other recourses but my own resources, with firm application and determination... I made a fool of myself!" "After the dust had cleared, half the cast had a beard. And I'm the one, as you can see, for whom the bell tolls merrily." "Rules of Chivalry be hanged! Ravenhurst, take that nincompoop, and knight that nincompoop by noon tomorrow!" " Why be gloomy, cut off thy nose to spite thy face? Listen to me. A nose is hard to replace." "After months of pleading for just this kind of action, what makes you think that anybody - anybody could make me reveal the identity of my confederate?" "Because they'd put you on the rack, crack your every bone, scald you with hot oil, and remove the nails off your fingers with flaming hot pincers." "I'd... like to withdraw the question." "You'll never outfox The Fox!"

Next film. "I'm proud to recall that at no time at all and with no other recourses but my own resources, with firm application and determination... I made a fool of myself!" "After the dust had cleared, half the cast had a beard. And I'm the one, as you can see, for whom the bell tolls merrily."

Bumped up for the new posters. It's the discussion (incomplete as it is) of the book supposedly by Mrs W, "Born Again to Serve."

Brought this back for the new people. It's the discussion of the book lcm wrote, "vp and me."

Bumped because the new people haven't read this thread yet. It's the thread based on the book "the way:Living in Love."

If I can back this up a little, to give the context.... vpw was fond of the odd and bizarre, and that OFTEN meant lots of conspiracy theories. I don't know if he fully believed them, or if he just used them as grist, but either way, he passed them along. vpw had a number of information links to "the Liberty Lobby"- he subscribed to their magazine, and he listened to their phone "hotline" a lot, in secret. (Remember, this was before the internet- so phone, television, radio, and mail communication were the most efficient ways to pass along what you considered "news.") So, vpw would go away, then come back, and announce some conspiracy was afoot, and only the combined prayers of the twi'ers could prevent disaster. Once someone commented about the San Andreas Fault not having had any catastrophic earthquakes of late. vpm replied that he should remove all the twi people from the area of the fault and THEN see what happened. The Mother Lode of the twi conspiracies under vpw was 1976 and the attempted takeover of the USA by subversive elements. (The Mother Lode of the twi conspiracies under lcm was the Y2K panic, and the complete breakdown of both technology and society when the machines stopped working, but that's another subject.) So, getting back to the MAL packs.... twi'ers at some levels were instructed to put together their MAL packs before the 1976 USA takeover took place, so they had vital supplies on hand so they could flee for their lives with what they needed. Among the supplies was those "sea sponges", supposedly a usable substitute for one of the supplies women would be unable to buy in pharmacies while running for their lives or hiding from the thought police or whatever other fool thing they were supposed to be doing at the time.

The earliest reference to this sort of thing that I found offhand was in Numbers, in that incident when Aaron and Miriam got in trouble for murmuring against Moses. Numbers 12:5-8 (King James Version) 5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. 6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? Seems to me that God's restating a standard policy here about prophets: He'll speak to them in visions and dreams. ======================================== I think the verses you wanted weren't in Psalms, they were in Job. Job 33:14-16 (King James Version) 14For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. 15In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, ====================================== There's been a number of books on the subject. I read one, and I'll recommend it: Exploring the World of Dreams (A Scriptural Guide to Hearing from God in the Night Season) by Benny Thomas, Whitaker House Publishing http://www.flipkart.com/exploring-world-dreams-ben-thomas-book-0883682788 http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0883682133 If you want to spend some time online on the subject first, you might want to look over this site: http://www.hannahscupboard.com/dreams-index.html

The 90s were an "exciting" time in twi. (As in the old curse, "May you be cursed to live in interesting times.") vpw knew he himself was a fraud- and knew how far to push his audiences, which audiences to push, and so on. When the cameras were on, he was SUCH a nice guy.... When he was yelling and lacking self-control, it was in private. lcm thought vpw was the real deal, and thus whatever vpw did was fine with God. lcm didn't know there were limits to pushing an audience-he didn't know it was all a fraud. So, the yelling vpw did in private, lcm did in public. The cursing vpw did in private, lcm did in public. He didn't even cover his adultery tracks as well as vpw did. Other things he adapted was vpw demanding an oath of loyalty. vpw pushed 2 groups of early Corps, and one was required to give vpw an oath of loyalty. lcm took that private practice, and made it public- requiring all twi'ers to do so to him. About 1993, things got REALLY weird. That's when lcm finished going completely around the bend, and began issuing truly bizarre doctrine, senseless practice, and so on. lcm announced "The Word is over The World", put the Corps as full-time salaried employees, and cancelled the ROA.

Pretty much, yeah. They get people to redefine their abuse as normal and acceptable. Once they manage that, the whole thing's easy. In vpw's case, he had an entire inner circle of twi to cover his tracks. People like Bob and Dottie "Moneyhands" were used to watch anyone who'd been particularly abused (raped by vpw or drugged then raped by vpw), to redirect them away from telling the authorities. Those who seemed likely to tell were rushed off grounds, put on a slow bus home, and while they travelled, vpw had their reputation ruined on grounds and back home, calling them "possessed" and other things. So, when they got home, few would listen to them at all. Brutally efficient system, the sign of someone who KNOWS fully well what they're doing, and are determined to do it effectively no matter how many people get crushed along the way. Ah, some people who met him when he was a student in the corps and thereabouts have said he was an actual human being back then. If he fit ANY stereotype, it was the "dumb jock". That made it a lot easier for vpw to con him completely. As time progressed, he was less and less a nice, approachable guy and slowly transformed (across the 70s) into the guy you knew. In some of the SNTs, he didn't yell AT ALL, and in others, he yelled and apologized about it and said some things got him that angry. (That was the early and mid 80s, respectively.) By 1990, lcm was confirmed on his current course, and any redeeming qualities he'd pretty much ditched the previous year when he demanded an oath of allegiance from the twi'ers, and expected them to "blindly follow him" no matter WHAT. (As far as he was concerned, that was the EXPECTED STATE of the Corps and Staff, and later of everyone in twi.)

Possibly. Eyewitness reports said Old Man Wierwille was an angry, aggressive man who dished it out in every direction. One POSSIBLE reason young vic kept wandering away from his chores on the farm was to get away from him- but that's mostly speculation on my part, nobody around at the time even SUGGESTED it. But yes, many unhealed abuse victims become abusers themselves, abusing others by exerting power over them and abusing it. (Abusing THEM in the process.) Well, vpw really got GOOD at abuse. He selected 2 different personas- one nice and one abusive. He selected the targets for the abusive one- those who he could get away with it with- and the people to play "nice guy" with- the ones who'd get him in trouble fast. For all his bluster and swagger, he never stood up to any guy who could have knocked him on his posterior- unless you count when he designated some twi'ers as bully boys to have THEM confront others. (Not to mention having attack dogs raised, which he then used to intimidate others. We have eyewitness accounts of that...)

*snicker* I love that line. That's all from "ARTHUR." At least, the Dudley Moore version. We don't know if the new version will have that scene. In all, I think the first 5-10 minutes or so of "Arthur" is the funniest part of the movie- all the way up to the next morning, when Hobson's offering the aspirin and so on. The movie just wouldn't be the same without it.