WordWolf

Rocky 3. The rematch. Rocky, Paulie, and Apollo in the corner.

Have I mentioned lately that I'm actually getting quite a bit out of this thread? I don't just mean in a sense of psychology/sociology/criminology, but in a sense of Christian learning. The whole process, with people contributing, has hit on some pretty deep stuff here and there, and some pretty fundamental stuff here and there, and had some interesting things to say about both. I think the dialogue has had some really beneficial posts in them. Of course, I don't speak for everyone, but I'd expect most of us are getting SOMETHING from the process.

Actually, you're accusing others of what you do, which is an old, old tactic. The whole discussion proceeded from your faulty claims, which seem to keep changing. twi was a "safe harbor", but not in the sense of giving "safety", and not in the sense of acting as a "harbor." But, oh, if you follow twi's rules and the so-called "LAW of believing" (which is unbiblical and doesn't work), then you will have a safe feeling and be guaranteed safety. Of course, that doesn't hold for lots of people who tried it your way and were unsafe- and victimized by vpw HIMSELF or hurt or raped or killed (like on LEAD) because they followed his instructions (you MUST hitchike), so now you go on the attack and someone ELSE "speaks with forked tongue." Anyone else but you can see the difference between what you said we said, and what we actually said. YOU SAID " But if you base your life on the word of God, and you even make major decisions based on prayer and the word of God, and time and time again your prayers get answered and you escape negative situations, and you're blessed and peaceful, then it's not gambling, is it?" That's the mechanized approach vpw claimed worked, the "law" of believing, where you believe and you're guaranteed to get the DESIRED result-if you did it right. That's not how it works. Here's what Geisha said: "Well, then Jesus was a great failure, because He prayed with great drops of blood as sweat....and His cup didn't pass. Paul, who basically carried out the second half of Jesus ministry.....did not have his thorn in the flesh removed....and along with the other apostles was beaten and imprisoned time and again. With the exception of John....who was not sent to Club Med, the Apostles were martyred. Peter died a horrible death, we believe after watching his wife suffer a similar fate. You are going to be hard pressed not to find persecution, violence, or suffering, from creation on in scripture. The only person who was called upright and perfect before God...Job, went through a horrible trial of human suffering. He didn't do anything wrong....and you know what? He never found out why. Escaping "negative" situations is not what gives us peace. In fact, we are promised persecution and suffering for His namesake.....that is one of the promises of God. The peace that is promised us....stems from a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is about our safety in Him...not this life. According to scripture....God has a pretty poor track record of keeping people safe in this life. Jesus presents us blameless and spotless before God...not this world." Here's what I said: "So, so far, twi's "safe harbor" offers no PHYSICAL safety (took 20 pages to get there), and the only "safety" twi offers is a promise that prayers will result CONSISTENTLY in deliverance (which, as the rest of us know, contradicts Scripture, since praying men like Jesus, Paul, Peter etc prayed earnestly and did not escape physical peril nor execution.)" So, in plain English, we said your rules argued against Scripture and against how things were demonstrated to have worked. (So Crates gave modern examples.) ================================== The sad part is that you can't tell the difference between what we said and, as you put it, "Out of one side of your mouth you say that a true Christian should be getting persecuted and killed, but out of the other side of your mouth you say that TWI, who supposedly raped and killed and destroyed souls, is evil even though they did what YOU SAY should be happening in the lives of true Christians." We were saying that Christians have no guarantee to avoid strife, and in fact should be expecting to face persecution and suffering if necessary, that is because the world is evil and we must remain faithful even though the world does not want us to be. That doesn't mean that ALL suffering=persecution of Christians. It also doesn't mean that to get someone closer to God, you persecute him and he should thank you for it. Matthew 18:6-7. "6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! " Luke 17:1-2. " 1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! 2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Jesus knew that we will suffer-it's "impossible" to avoid it in the world- but the one that causes the Christians to suffer is NOT Christian NOR to be thanked- he's in a lot of trouble with God Almighty. So, going from Jesus' explanation, if an organization VICTIMIZES Christians and CAUSES them to suffer, then that organization. SINCE twi has victimized Christians, has caused them to stumble and suffer, and vpw himself raped and molested, twi was responsible for much evil, and vpw was personally responsible for much evil. To say otherwise is to display a sharp disagreement with Jesus Christ himself as to how things go. It's sad that you can't see the difference. It's disappointing that virtually everyone who reads this thread can see the difference, and can easily see us quoting and explaining the relevance of Scripture here, and learn thereby, but you still toss out vague insults about our understanding. There's an appalling contrast with what's evident and what you're claiming is here. Can it be stated any more simply than this?

For those of you following along from home, a popular question that started on page 1 is "a safe harbor? For who?" (All right, that's 2 questions, but they're related.) The answer on page 1 was "yes", but we've been trying to get an answer as to what the heck was meant by that. After all, some people's lives were ruined, some people died as a result of twi... So, supposedly, twi was "a safe harbor." But not in the sense the rest of us would consider "a safe harbor". We'd think of a location of some type where one could rest, secure that one was free of danger found outside the "safe harbor." For a ship's captain, that would mean outracing storms to a port where he could land his ship and know the storms could not affect it. For a traveler, that would mean a place to sleep and recover from traveling, confident he could do so without risks of harm interrupting his sleep and time there. (Once he left might be another story, but in a "safe harbor" he was secure. So, twi was not a "safe harbor" from physical safety. We knew people were hurt or killed in it. The explanation of what was meant (finally) doesn't shy from that, either. twi is PHYSICALLY about as secure as anyplace else. Other places, someone may engage in dangerous and sinful behavior ("trying to make a drug buy"), and be shot and killed instantly. twi is PHYSICALLY as safe as people engaging in dangerous and sinful behavior. That should be a warning sign to those who think of twi as a Christian organization and think those should offer some degree of physical safety, at least when on grounds or during meetings. So, supposedly, there is no such thing as "tangible safety" ANYWHERE. Personally, I think that's lowering one's standards. Many people have secure homes where one can live or visit and feel completely safe, and hotels and inns base their reputations and business on tangible safety on their grounds, and so on. So, so far, twi's "safe harbor" offers no PHYSICAL safety (took 20 pages to get there), and the only "safety" twi offers is a promise that prayers will result CONSISTENTLY in deliverance (which, as the rest of us know, contradicts Scripture, since praying men like Jesus, Paul, Peter etc prayed earnestly and did not escape physical peril nor execution. The only "safety" we've seen that holds up is FEELING SECURE, a "good feeling." vpw sneered at when ANYONE ELSE made claims of feeling good outside his organization, saying there was NO DIFFERENCE between a "good feeling" among other Christians vs lying on a Psychiatrist's couch. I'll agree this time with what he said- there was NO DIFFERENCE between the "good feeling" and "safe FEELING" in twi and that gotten from among the unbelievers in therapy. Which, of course, means twi offers nothing to those who want something from GOD that the CHRISTIANS are supposed to have, except for platitudes that claim what others have and twi lacks DOESN'T REALLY EXIST (like physical safety), and that twi is still somehow superior to Christians who supposedly HAVE physical safety because it doesn't teach the Trinity and teaches the dead are dead. If those are the only advantages, I'll take all the things twi lacks, and deal with the doctrinal problems. I can sleep better among REAL Christians even when I don't agree with them on every single issue. (Then again, I didn't agree on every single issue even IN twi, and I don't see that happening until Jesus returns.)

Mind you, lots of stuff has been traced to its original sources. If one manages to sit and name something that has not been traced, that's hardly proof that wasn't stolen. After all, a thief whom the Police have not found evidence against is still a thief-just a more careful thief. vpw's been proven to have ripped off material, both generally and specifically.

A long time ago, I heard that skeptics who are fooled by someone become the most hard-nosed dogmatists for a con, because they started from the position that they were UNABLE to be conned. They had absolutes and thought that they could see through ANY level of con NO MATTER WHAT- so all the conman had to do was exceed their threshold of skepticism, and then he didn't have to try so hard to keep his con going. They already went from "skeptic" to "conned victim." It is not a coincidence that the "outer layers" of twi (the heavily-controlled tapes, books, ROAs) were the most carefully-controlled parts of twi. Those are the levels we all saw from week to week. Any skepticism any of us have, that's the parts we expose them to. Those steps were composed with lots and lots of material from specific Christians who vpw considered tops-Bullinger, Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, others, often without attribution or LIMITED attribution (mentioning one attribution and leaving another unstated)- and with lots of sincere Christians at the local level who really wanted to do their best for God. Once some of us were more thoroughly fleeced as to the legitimacy of twi ("no counterfeit could produce so much legitimate teaching"- sure it could- just grab work of good Christians, then spit it back out and don't tell anyone that's exactly what you're doing. Then add lots of showmanship- vpw was a HELL of a showman- and voila! Convincing con that LOOKS like a legitimate Christian movement) we went off into deeper levels of twi. The next layers had a LOT less "meat" from conventional Christians to fool us- because we were ALREADY fooled, and MORE fooled the further on we moved. The wow program- godly? Well, it was presented as so, and the participants intended to serve God, but the program was designed haphazardly, putting young men and women together into one household, sending them into strange places, some of them dangerous, and requiring them to go door to door, even in the most dangerous neighborhoods. Small wonder reports came back that some of the wows were having sex with each other, or were in physical danger in their assignments. What was the "support" from the "denomination" sending them out? They CHARGED the wows for going out, they required them to supply their OWN transportation to their assignment, they required they cover ALL their own expenses- housing, food, sundries, and assigned them to run classes which brought money in to twi. When the classes were assembled (and money was paid), the organization sent copies of videotapes, which were sent back as soon as the class was over. (All class costs were charged "retail" to the new students for the Foundational, and the Intermediate was charged HIGHER than retail.) The wow program was designed to turn a financial profit- and it did. The way corps program- godly? Well, it was presented as so, and the participants intended to serve God, but the program was set up piecemeal. The priority- to quote vpw himself- "YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!- and that was for when the program was unformed. Christians intended TO WORK FOR TWI- did TWI subsidize their education? A) they were charged for their program B) they worked during their program (for which they were charged) C) the classes could all easily fit in 1 year-the college division certainly did, for the same classes D) significant amounts of the remaining time were for things like RUNS and exercise E) their housing was in tiny cubicles. College students would have found their space tiny. (That might be sensible, say, for housing someone for a long weekend, but for even a WEEK that's confining, and for an extended stay, it's ridiculous.) The way corps program was designed to turn a financial profit- and it did. And that's not even addressing how the corps was carefully sifted for sex victims by vpw. We've addressed that lots of times- how vpw used the "birth to the corps" papers to look for victims, even spotted holding it in his hand when trying to target a woman, or quoting from it when trying to convincer her God wanted her to have sex with vpw. The papers, the location (vpw had physical places set up to target women- one man doesn't need multiple places to sleep on ONE campus where he has vehicles to travel the campus as well as vehicles with beds for when he's on the road), the cadre (people were used to contrive excuses for the woman to be alone with vpw at one of these places, and monitor them afterwards). The most carefully-constructed parts of the corps were the payment structure and the cadre to arrange vpw's victims. Those who actually spent time with vpw in unstructured times saw a man NOYHING LIKE the man we heard of back home, back in the taped classes, or up on the stage at the ROA. They saw a man who was given to immature rages at a moment's notice, who spent all day feeding fleshly vices of drink and tobacco, with a filthy mouth and the moral behavior of a gutter rat (how many Christian ministries would tolerate having a minister who copped a feel of women?), and who, when he taught, would often teach some great teachings using the materials of other men. If there's any doubt, he had a location where he stockpiled books from other Christians, and he would privately mine them for "his" teachings. A handful of people saw those. I spoke personally to one of the few people who had access to it-which, of course, was restricted, since it was the keystone to his entire con.) Can a conman go on for hours and hours with legitimate Bible, sound completely legitimate, even shed tears while preaching, and still be a complete conman? They can- and he did. Any convincing conman, or any convincing actor, can summon up such a display. Shakespeare's fans are well aware of this. A character in Hamlet is an actor, who is asked to do a recital about part of the Trojan War. When speaking about Hecuba, he sheds tears. Was it because he personally cared about Hecuba, or did he so completely throw himself into the acted role that a tear was the obvious response? To anyone not still conned, the answers are all obvious. Any decent actor can make ANYTHING sound deep. Actors have performed exercises where a shopping list, gibberish, or silly sentences were spoken with great fervor. Add to that an actual set of substantial materials, and any actor worth the name could make himself sound devout, and the originator of any teaching or research. vpw SOUNDED LIKE he really believed what he taught- and this was a man who taught that a man was not supposed to "help himself" to a woman- with verse reference, then turned around and helped himself to women. Did he believe it was wrong when he was doing it- and thus deliberately sinning against God- or did he believe it was ok with God when he was doing it- and thus deliberately lying when teaching it was wrong? vpw SOUNDED LIKE he loved the word of God-but if it really mattered to him in his heart, why spend most of his days contradicting it so flagrantly? (Even while teaching- how many Christian ministries permit ministers to sip alcohol from cups of alcohol WHILE TEACHING?) Scamming people as an auto mechanic would have required a LOT more work, and been a LOT easier to expose, and a LOT easier to criminally prosecute. People EXPECT a salesman to try to con you. Who expected a minister to con you, to fondle women as he did, to molest women, drug and rape them as he did? What minister is expected to sweat and grunt through hard physical labor like a farmer or auto mechanic? Becoming a minister allowed him to work less than the other options he considered- and even his own father said he was lazy on the farm, and even his own brother admitted he ditched his chores all the time. So, less labor and less dirty work, and more trust and authority, and eventually lots of chances to have unrestricted access to people naive enough to trust him. vpw conned many people quite well. In hindsight it's rather obvious- unless one is still in the con.

You don't understand ALL English, because everybody ELSE has no trouble understanding my posts, and you're saying I'm trying to "numb" a mind- instead of encourage thinking. You see a longer post and categorically slap a label "long-winded", and you confuse refutations of your points with "damage control." So, sorry, you're unable to read my full posts with comprehension. Actually, you're advocating SILENCE on the subjects of evil deeds if vpw did them, and SILENCE holding him responsible for the damage he wrought. That's why the attempts to change the subject and go off into digressions on music when the rest of us discuss an evil man who did evil deeds. I'm sorry you're unable to tell the difference between quoting Scriptures and explaining them, and espousing their principles, and the actions of the handful of Jews who had Jesus crucified. It's amazing YOU'RE the one bringing up concepts like "selective reasoning, personal bias, reluctance to consider some ideas, and programming to an agenda." It's sad you're the only one who can't see why it's amazing. And hypocritical on your own part. I'm thankful for a lot. I don't express thankfulness to God by covering the evil deeds of evil men who prey upon innocent Christians. We seem to be thankful in very different ways. We certainly express our thankfulness differently. Actually, this current thread seems to highlight rather dramatically some dysfunctional thought patterns and so on. I read an outrageous comment that I felt was overdue to be addressed from Scripture rather than from platitude- and I did so. The discussion that followed included a DIFFERENT outrageous comment that someone else felt was overdue to be addressed. Don't blame either of us if you make outrageous comments and people show they're ridiculous and outrageous. If you don't want your posts refuted, post more logically or refrain from posting when you're feeling the need to espouse a silly position. I didn't "overreact". Everybody EXCEPT YOU learned that, although you-and others- claim we can't properly call someone "evil" because their deeds were evil, Scripture holds the opposite position. We all gained in knowledge. (I certainly did- I didn't know there were specific verses to address that before that thread.) Your responses could have included things like "I was not aware the Bible said that. Thank you for increasing my lnowledge" or anything that indicated that you'd change your mind to agree with the Bible. Instead, when faced with saying the opposite of the Bible, you entrenched yourself deeper into your position and used all sorts of gambits to change the subject, make this personal, etc. The rest of us, despite all the twisting, have all learned things in the threads the past few weeks. It's a shame you haven't. You're busy trying to look like the hero and defend vpw from even the most Biblical of charges against him. You're experiencing a different reality than the rest of us. Why didn't I look at someone who espoused error, and decide to keep silent and leave it alone? Why put forth the truth when someone's putting forth the opposite? Why post things-especially things you don't want to see posted, which means you're going to label them all sorts of things they are not? It's not about you or me, it's about Truth, and sometimes it's specifically about what it says in the Bible. It would be obsessive if that's all I did all day. It's a little scary that there are people who will show up and try to defend vpw's reputation no matter how well-documented any of his evil deeds are that are being discussed. I find THAT obsessive. Can't face the idea the Bible calls such a man "evil"? Can't face that his own words show his intent, down the years? Can't face that vpw put forth that himself was some great one, when instead he was an evil man who used the works of Christians to pretend he was producing Christian works? I noticed that you never tried to dispute any pieces of actual HISTORY we discuss. There's just this flat "it's speculation" after we've discussed it and documented it. If you had something to actually support your claim, it would make sense to actually present that rather than just make flat claims. BTW, you're finally, at least, claiming I said what I said. 1) Old man Wierwille never taught safe boundaries. (We know what all his children said, and how they turned out.) We also have some testimony as to his own behavior. 2) vpw WAS a bully. Lots of people have testified to his bullying. People have known him as a bully his entire adult life. He bullied people all through twi's history and only stopped when he was too sickly to bully anyone anymore, not because his character improved. 3) Actually, I don't think he set a goal to scam people in 1942. BEFORE 1942, he selected ministry as a career because he thought it would be easy. In 1953, he found materials that could potentially be used to scam people-and his thoughts went to scamming people- whicb he did that very year when he lied to people about Leonard's class. vpw later scammed people and assigned a date of 1942 to his scam. In the late 1960s, he saw some women less restrictive about sex- and his thoughts went to "how do I get them to have sex with me?"- and he made that a long-term goal. (He may have been planning for this through the decades, but I don't have hard evidence that his old congregation fired him for inappropriate sexual behavior, so I'll stick with what I can clearly document.) He never "deserved" any kind of harem, and didn't get one. He surrounded himself with young people, and predatorially set out to single out one, then another, to victimize sexually. If he had a "harem", he wouldn't have needed to waste all that effort. 4) He was chronically drunk, and usually on Drambuie. People who had never heard of Drambuie were sent to get MULTIPLE BOTTLES for him for when he was coming to town for A FEW DAYS. He regularly carried a coffee mug around which had Drambuie in it. He had whole procedures worked out on how to hide alcohol-breath. (Put a strong mint in your mouth, break it in your mouth.) People misunderstood that, and broke mints in 1/2 to have a dish ready for him whenever he was teaching. NONE OF THAT IS SPECULATION. What's obsessive is to have read all of that, all the eyewitness accounts of all of those, then turn around and say they don't exist, that vpw was great because Jesus is great and saved us all, so vpw can sin all he wants and destroy lives and it's insignificant because he had salvation. It's unhealthy to read the verses that explain the opposite and STILL say that, too. As long as people revere the DAMAGED doctrines of a damaged man (the errors like the false "LAW" of believing, how one can exploit the Christians and it's ok because we have salvation, the insertion of sexual perspectives on non-sexual Bible accounts, vpw's ministry will continue to HURT people. Many people have gotten deliverance from them, and are still Christians, still respect the Bible, without the warped patterns of twi impeding their walk before God. Are you really going to spend all the time you have left defending an evil dead hypocrite's legacy?

Here we see an excellent example of two of the problems of a twi/vpw "education." 1) A tendency to project a lot more sex into the Bible 2) An inability to read what's written because one is convinced they know the right of everything. It did not say she was "lying in his bosom." Read what YOU just quoted. It says his servants had that idea. The servants wanted to get him some young woman to use for sex. This is what they thought, planned for, and expected. David didn't go along with it that far- he didn't stop them from sending a woman in, but he refused to sin against God again, and so he didn't have sex with her outside of his marriage. I Kings 1:4 (NASB) 4The girl was very beautiful; and she became the king's nurse and served him, but the king did not cohabit with her. I Kings 1:4 NIV. "The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her." I Kings 1:4 ESV. "The young woman was very beautiful, and she was of service to the king and attended to him, but the king knew her not." I Kings 1:4 CEV."They brought her to David, and she took care of him. But David did not have sex with her. " I Kings 1:4 ASV."And the damsel was very fair; and she cherished the king, and ministered to him; but the king knew her not. " (etc, etc) I Kings 15:5. "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." That's a belief that persists only among vpw-trained people. The Bible does not support that claim. Genesis 19:4-5. 4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. The men of Sodom may have been perverts and sex maniacs, but they knew that one man or many men can't impregnate a man or men. If you tried reading the Bible and ditching all the vpw-invented preconceived notions, you'd have discovered this long ago- vpw's claim is based on speculation and the idea that it's plausible God would use a miracle to make a virgin conceive, but that it's implausible that a young man could refrain from having sex with his pregnant wife until after she's delivered her baby. A man caring enough to abstain from sex was too big a leap of faith for vpw to make. When I have some time to kill, I should go over the timeline with a fine tooth comb, and see if David was married to each at the time and her only, or unmarried when he was dancing the horizontal with the non-wives. I'm not going to guess about something like that, and it's obviously not a rush job. I'm sorry for you that you're unable to read my full posts with comprehension, and have to resort to "the fox and the sour grapes" to deal with it. Perhaps if you read the Bible with understanding more, you'd manage it. I hardly write novellas when I post, so most people have no difficulty following along. Since I post verses along with discussion OF the verses, it's longer to read the posts, but FAR easier to follow along because I leave everything in plain sight. For those with average reading comprehension abilities, it makes things easier rather than harder. Sorry you can't keep up. Maybe if you split a post into shorter readings, say, a paragraph at a time, you'd be able to understand what I post. Actually, this makes official something that seemed pretty clear earlier- that you reply to posts you don't even understand. All the time. Thanks for making this obvious for those who hadn't figured it out yet. That's not what the seminary students I've interacted with say. In fact, offhand, or "from the hip", they could keep up with any discussion on the Bible we've ever had at the GSC, and would out-perform many posters. ex-twi people are not nearly as learned about the Bible as they think they are.

It's still a little glitchy. I made 2 threads, "vp and me in Wonderland" and "the way:living in Wonderland." I did a title search for "wonderland", and got 1 result: "Winter Wonderland." I did a second title search and added my name as thread author. It said there were 2 results-but only displayed the "vp and me in Wonderland" thread.

I Kings 15:5. "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." A) The historical dates-and precise age-of David at different events has a disputed range. "They happened between x and y." You somehow have a source that pins the age and year down? Please supply it. (This puts him over 50 and having kids like Solomon.) B) Even IF David was older, it hardly negates my point- good-looking, popular, rich king. C) It is a little disturbing to be discussing David in the Bible and for someone to keep imagining we're discussing vpw. vpw was not named in the Bible. He was not around when any part was written. He was not one of the heroes of the Bible. And yet some people can't talk about them for a few minutes without trying to say vpw was like them or they were like vpw. D) Likewise, David, again, was not like vpw. David committed ONE, count them, ONE, act of sin against God. (I'm counting the entire affair where he stole another man's wife and had the man killed as one event because the Bible counts it as one event.) For this, he suffered heavily, and the consequences lasted hundreds of years. David repented his action, begged God's forgiveness, and spent the next few DECADES on the straight and narrow. We know this because God told us that EXCEPT for that, David walked the straight and narrow. Read the Psalms. David's sorrow and regret were deep, and were followed by DECADES of right action. None of it erased his sin, but-excepting the Bathsheba travesty- he was neither a sex maniac, a rapist, a molester, etc. You have accused him of being so from nothing more than a desire to see him like vpw in some ways, excusing vpw for being like vpw. You said "Even at the end of his life he had them find Abishag to "keep him warm"." So, your claim is that David instructed his people to get him Abishag to go to bed with him. (We know this is the kind of thing vpw would do- did Scripture say DAVID did it?) I Kings 1:1-4. (KJV) 1Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat. 2Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat. 3So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not. I Kings 1:1-4 (NASB) 1Now King David was old, advanced in age; and they covered him with clothes, but he could not keep warm. 2So his servants said to him, "Let them seek a young virgin for my lord the king, and let her attend the king and become his nurse; and let her lie in your bosom, that my lord the king may keep warm." 3So they searched for a beautiful girl throughout all the territory of Israel, and found Abishag the Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4The girl was very beautiful; and she became the king's nurse and served him, but the king did not cohabit with her. 1. The idea was that of the servants. 2. The entire proceeding was that of the servants. 3. David didn't try to have sex with this woman. This should not surprise people who already remembered that David was properly married, and to have done so would have been a sin against God. God told us that David straightened up and flew right after he recovered from his sins against God concerning Bathsheba and Uriah. 4. The whole idea that David had sex with Abishag seems to be unique to vpw and those he taught. I Kings 1:4 NIV. "The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her." I Kings 1:4 ESV. "The young woman was very beautiful, and she was of service to the king and attended to him, but the king knew her not." CEV."They brought her to David, and she took care of him. But David did not have sex with her. " ASV."And the damsel was very fair; and she cherished the king, and ministered to him; but the king knew her not. " (etc, etc) vpw-and those who he taught-seem to have this obsession with sex and seeing many Biblical accounts allowing for more sex than a plain read would indicate. (I've begun entire threads where we examined some other examples, and they proved to rely purely on speculation and the word of vpw.) So, again, vpw the sex felon (he was not charged, but he committed multiple acts of rape and molestation, and each was a felony whether or not the police caught him) was not David. vpw was not like David. David was not like vpw. David committed a hideous sin and spent the rest of his life "clean", not sinning, and performing right actions. Now, let's get to the more formal smokescreen... John, if you actually gave a tinker's cuss for 20th and 21st century victims of rape and molestation, you might actually convince us this is actual concern for Bathsheba's well-being. But when you can actually reach accounts of living people and actually communicate with them, the compassion is lacking. As to Bathsheba herself, we only have what the Bible says and what the Bible does not say. Her only protest is "I'm pregnant." God knows whether she consented or did not consent. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate she was coerced, or did not consent. Therefore, anything along those lines is SPECULATION. We have nothing to indicate she's significantly troubled by having a rich, good-looking, popular king want to have sex with her OR to make her a Queen. We do know that her child was killed as the result of sin. Now, if one ONLY looked at that, what are the possibilities? A) David's sin resulted in the death of Bathsheba's child- God required him as punishment for David's sin, and Bathsheba was innocent. God robbed Bathsheba of her child for something she was innocent of. B) David AND BATHSHEBA'S SIN resulted in the death of Bathsheba's child-God required him as punishment for the sin they BOTH committed. The other penalities were levied on David because he had more responsibility. If one is prepared to accept an unjust God, who punishes the righteous with the wicked, the first possibility is acceptable. The rest of us consider it senseless, illogical, and inconsistent with the rest of Scripture. Is there any reason we have to think she felt the victim in this? There is nothing in God's Word to indicate so. If it's given by GOD, then we'd expect He would include that when everything else is being said. Anything about Bathsheba being "forced" into all this is all speaking where God was silent. vpw himself said "Where the Word of God remains silent, he who speaks is a fool." He also would call it "private interpretation", which none of Scripture is given for. Sorry John, but your attempt to fog the issue just exposes more deficiencies in your understanding of Scripture. You're not even following vpw's own maxims for reading it. This is the second time I've refuted your claim from Scripture. If you still insist on arguing against Scripture on this, I recommend you take it off of this thread. You might look around and discover that you can actually learn something on this while not looking among vpw and people he taught. (It's probably the only way to escape these sex-centric teachings we were all subjected to.) Ok, now this is just being silly. vpw was not hanging around Israel when David was sinning against God and against Uriah. So God didn't dedicate verses in I Kings to vpw and his sins. vpw was not around Palestine during Paul's travels. There's a book of Philemon about Onesimus, but not a book about vpw. We were told Alexander the coopersmith did much evil, there's no such warning about vpw the sex maniac. This is as logical as saying "The Bible doesn't warn us about Jim Jones by name- therefore God didn't disapprove of his actions. The Bible doesn't warn us about David Koresh by name-therefore God didn't disapprove of his actions." And so on. As I said, this is being silly. As to the more general warnings, there's plenty of verses warning us of people like vpw deceiving and hurting God's people. Geisha has been posting them for pages and pages. The rest of us have actually noticed. "Mention?" You passed along gossip that ONE PERSON said. I can find ONE PERSON that says that "where vpw walked, the earth shook." Even the weakest claims wait for TWO OR THREE WITNESSES, because God has always been well aware that you can always find ONE nut to put forth the most outrageous claims. I find it amusing, John, that you can confuse vpw's sins with David, wonder why vpw's missing from the Bible, and generally try to claim men of God are all sex maniacs to try to make vpw look like a man of God rather than an evil man, a wicked man, and a sex maniac...... And then say "We'll see who's really being 'fooled.'" Nearly everyone can already see that and don't have to "wait".....

NO. First of all, if God covered for David, billions of Christians and Jews wouldn't know all about it for thousands of years. It's even mentioned in Matthew. Matthew 1:6b."David was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah." That's not "covering", that's shining a light on it centuries later. And the Scriptures in Samuel and Kings go into a LOT more detail, which means we all know all about it because God wanted us to know all about it. Is that "covering"? No, that's EXPOSING. II Samuel 11:2-5 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.” David sinned. We don't need all the tawdry details. What we know is PLENTY. David's sin ended with a CONSEQUENCE. Now Bathsheba was pregnant. Who covered for all this, if anyone? II Samuel 11:6-12 6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house. 10 David was told, “Uriah did not go home.” So he asked Uriah, “Haven’t you just come from a military campaign? Why didn’t you go home?” 11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!” 12 Then David said to him, “Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David’s invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master’s servants; he did not go home. DAVID covered for David. And it didn't work. II Samuel 11:14-25. 14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.” 16 So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. 17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died. 18 Joab sent David a full account of the battle. 19 He instructed the messenger: “When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, 20 the king’s anger may flare up, and he may ask you, ‘Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn’t you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? 21 Who killed Abimelek son of Jerub-Besheth? Didn’t a woman drop an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?’ If he asks you this, then say to him, ‘Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.’” 22 The messenger set out, and when he arrived he told David everything Joab had sent him to say. 23 The messenger said to David, “The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance of the city gate. 24 Then the archers shot arrows at your servants from the wall, and some of the king’s men died. Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.” 25 David told the messenger, “Say this to Joab: ‘Don’t let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.’ Say this to encourage Joab.” DAVID covered for David- and he conspired to have an innocent man-Uriah- killed to cover David's sin. II Samuel 11:26 26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the LORD. DAVID covered DAVID's tracks, and killed an innocent man to cover David's own sins. The LORD disapproved of David's sin. II Samuel 12:1-22 1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. 4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.” 5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.” 7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’ 11 “This is what the LORD says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’” 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the LORD, the son born to you will die.” 15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.” 19 David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked. “Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.” 20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. 21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!” 22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” What conclusions would a REASONABLE person make from reading this? Did God "cover" David's sin? No- God exposed it before all of Israel, made a permanent record of it in His Word, David's House would have strife permanently, and David's son would DROP DEAD. Is that God "approving"? Is that God "covering?" Oh, God said David HIMSELF won't be killed for this. Would a REASONABLE person call that GOD being a "co-conspirator", or would a reasonable person say that God meted out immediate AND long-term consequences, and decided it was not necessary to kill David in addition to everything else. Well, we know how well John's processing what he's reading. He's distorted the entire account, and turned lifelong strife and a DEATH, and PUBLIC RIDICULE FOR CENTURIES into "God covered", "God co-conspired"..... Meanwhile, we now see a pointless digression into speculation about Bathsheba. "Didn't her life count for anything?" It counted for a lot. But her only protest is "I'm pregnant." We have nothing to indicate she's significantly troubled by having a young, good-looking, popular, rich king want to have sex with her OR to make her a Queen. Did God force her to do anything? No. Is there any reason we have to think she felt the victim in this? There is nothing in God's Word to indicate so. If it's given by GOD, then we'd expect He would include that when everything else is being said. Anything about Bathsheba being "forced" into all this is all speaking where God was silent. vpw himself said "Where the Word of God remains silent, he who speaks is a fool." He also would call it "private interpretation", which none of Scripture is given for. Sorry John, but your attempt to fog the issue just exposes more deficiencies in your understanding of Scripture. You're not even following vpw's own maxims for reading it. WE haven't misrepresented YOU yet. There's been pages and pages of you painting caricatures of what we've said, and you accusing us of doing what you were doing. Do you really think you're fooling anyone besides yourself in all this?

"One of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you."

One more from Juedes. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm "STOLEN GOODS-- HOW V.P. WIERWILLE PLAGIARIZED FROM OTHERS TO MAKE RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY by John Juedes The Way International (TWI) and its founder Victor Paul Wierwille have long considered themselves to be the sole true source of Biblical research and teaching in the area of teaching people to receive the holy spirit (which TWI does not capitalize, because TWI considers holy spirit to be an impersonal power or ability). The key book which describes its teaching is Wierwille's Receiving the Holy Spirit Today (RTHST). Wierwille claimed to have hauled all 3,000 of his theological books to the city dump (see Power for Abundant Living, pp. 119-120) and studied the Bible by itself, without referring to men's writings. In the preface to RTHST, Wierwille claims: "I prayed that I might put aside all I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with The Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook" (RTHST, p.x). However, in the very book in which he said he "put aside" all he "had heard," he draws thought after thought, indeed, word after word, from two books: E. W. Bullinger's The Giver and His Gifts, and J. E. Stiles' The Gift of the Holy Spirit. In other writings, we have printed side-by-side columns proving that Wierwille copied long sections of Stiles' and Bullinger's books (see The Integrity and Accuracy of The Way' Word, pp. 43-48 and "Wierwille Borrows-- Challenge to the Originality of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today;" also, Will the Real Author Please Stand Up proves that Wierwille plagiarized other books, too). Here we will show that nearly every section of RTHST was stolen from Stiles and Bullinger. RTHST is heavily based on the content, wording, structure, terms and general conclusions of these authors. In fact, Wierwille included every section of Bullinger's book into RTHST in some form, and most every chapter of Stiles is represented as well. If Wierwille had never plagiarized Bullinger and Stiles, his "book" RTHST would be hardly the length of a magazine article. Wierwille never once credited these authors for their work. In fact, he never once mentions their names in RTHST, and never admitted in any other article or book that he used Stiles and Bullinger to compile RTHST. It is clear why he omitted their names-- if he did cite them, it would show that Wierwille's claim to have studied the Bible alone was completely false and fraudulent. This chart shows the major sections of RTHST and the portions of Stiles and Bullinger's books Wierwille stole them from: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm (the chart is on his site.) Was Wierwille just an ignorant and naive student, who unknowingly used other men's writings and would have credited them if he'd thought of it? One very revealing portion of RTHST is the preface. In the second edition, Wierwille states that he once was a searcher who learned something from an unnamed source: "The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had been taught and start anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. It took me seven years to find a man of God schooled in the Holy Spirit, a man who knew the Scripture on the Holy Spirit, and could fit it together so that I did not have to omit, deny or change any one passage. He made the Scripture fit like a hand fits into a glove, and when you can do that, you can be assured of having truth." (RTHST, 2 ed, p. 8) While Wierwille admits he learned from someone, he still is intentionally deceptive. First, he never mentions the man's name (though it is clear now that he meant Stiles). Furthermore, Wierwille never says that he took most of the material from Stiles (copying sections almost word for word) and wrote very little of RTHST himself. He clearly leads the reader to believe that he wrote RTHST on his own, even though he clearly plagiarized much of it. However, in following editions of RTHST, Wierwille deletes his statement that he learned from another man, and states an arrogant lie-- that he did entirely original research, and that none of his teaching came from other men. Note how Wierwille rewrote the same paragraph from the preface to RTHST for the third (and later) edition: "The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with The Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. I did not want to omit, deny or change any passage for, the Word of God being the Will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove." (RTHST, 6 ed, p.x). The fly leaf of RTHST includes a brief biography of V. P. Wierwille which lists the names of several Bible teachers such as E. Stanley Jones, K. C. Pillai and George Lamsa. While some editions of RTHST say that Wierwille quested "with" them for truth (which infers Wierwille was their peer), others say they aided Wierwille. But none of the editions ever mention Stiles or Bullinger, even though they had far more influence on the content of RTHST than the other men listed. The most likely reason that Bullinger and Stiles were omitted from the fly leaves is that Wierwille wanted to avoid providing his readers any leads to finding that Wierwille had indeed plagiarized huge amounts of Stiles' and Bullinger's books. This is the point at which V.P. Wierwille apparently turns from a fairly well-meaning searcher who at least partially credits someone he learned from, into a self-promoting liar. Now he promotes himself as the unique, accurate Bible teacher and innovator and excludes any mention of other sources. He not only leads the reader to believe something false (that he's original), but blatantly claims it himself. The different versions of Wierwille's story of how he heard God speak to him also suggest that he may have fabricated details about his experience in order to inflate his image. One of the first times the story is published is in the 25th anniversary booklet. In this version, he doesn't claim that audibly spoke to him: "Father clearly spoke to me one night while I was praying, and He made this promise as He spoke to me: He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century, provided that I would teach what He taught me to others." (Page 9) While Wierwille still makes the audacious claim that he is the only man in 1,850 years to teach the pure Word of God, he didn't claim outright that God's voice was audible. However, a few years later Elena Whiteside wrote a book which virtually idolized Wierwille and TWI. In this version, Wierwille insists it was an audible voice: "I was praying.... And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said he would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others" (Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 178). Mrs. Wierwille quotes a version of the audible-voice story in her book Born Again to Serve and adds, "Rev. Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until much later when he was teaching The Way Corps. It was a most astounding phenomenon which he kept to himself" (page 43).It may be that Wierwille found that such stories could easily impress the more impressionable young Corps with such stories of his exploits. Whiteside's book is written in that period and includes other examples of Wierwille exaggerating (even lying about) his background, which greatly impresses Whiteside (see examples in From Vesper Chimes to The Way InternationalBy Juedes & Morton). Plagiarism is serious fraud. It has caused doctoral candidates to be removed from graduate school, journalists to be fired, and public figures to be shamed. A person better understands the severity of plagiarism when he realizes that plagiarism is both lying and stealing. Ephesians specifically instructs us, "you must put off falsehood" (4:25) and "he who has been stealing must steal no longer" (4:28), while Jesus states that the Adversary is the father of lies. Wierwille stole others' words when he placed them in his books and then lied by placing his own name on the books, asserting that all words in them were his alone. By selling his publications, Wierwille also made money from other men's work. He therefore obtained a degree of prestige and money at others' expense. Many lawsuits initiated by the entertainment industry and business have established that theft of other peoples' words, ideas and work are criminal offenses. Surely Wierwille's extensive plagiarism indicates that he has stolen words and ideas and lied about their source, and even claimed that all his work was orignal. All this demonstrates a lack of integrity. Dr. John P. Juedes, 1998, Highland, CA www.empirenet.com/~messiah7 ============================================= http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_wannabe.htm VP WIERWILLE WAS A "WANNA BE" Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of The Way International (TWI) wasn't satisfied finding a respectable occupation or goal in life, as most people do. Instead, Wierwille wanted to be the greatest initiator and leader of God's people to live in the last 2,000 years. From promoting himself as "the Man of God" to singlehandedly surviving a communist takeover of the USA, VP thought he was "the best" and could make his followers the same. But instead of providing "one-stop" shopping for every spiritual and personal need, VP failed at every effort and left thousands of disillusioned followers soured on spiritual leaders to the degree that many still reject legitimate Christian endeavors. Wierwille's central goal was to take "the Word Over The World (WOW)" and signed up thousands of idealistic, young "WOW Ambassadors" to do the job for him. Some people may think that taking "the Word" meant distributing the Bible to people and cultures absorbed in paganism or telling people about Jesus Christ. But no, "the Word" they sold was a fee-based (costing students from $40-$200), taped class by Wierwille called "Power for Abundant Living." They recruited mainly people who already had Christian background, but who hadn't heard the Word according to Wierwille. Many students were disillusioned when they found out that Wierwille's teachings weren't original and unique as they thought, but were plagiarized, copied and repackaged from others. Wierwille copied parts of others' books and syllabuses, and virtually reads appendices from the Companion Bible during PFAL, yet never cites his sources during the class or footnotes the quotations in books. TWI itself lost confidence in the class and replaced it about 25 years after it was taped. Barely .0002% of the American population bought PFAL. Wierwille also promoted himself as "The Man of God" for our day, and he loved to be called "Doctor" and "The Teacher" (not just "a," but "The"). He encouraged his followers to think of him as the greatest spiritual leader since the Apostle Paul 2,000 years ago. Wierwille claimed God spoke audibly to him and promised to teach him the Word "as it has not been know since the first century." Wierwille saw himself as the One Man who could bring the deluded, tradition-bound Christian church around the world back to the truth. He thought he was a reformer greater than Martin Luther who launched the world-wide Reformation in the 1500s. He portrayed himself as Luther by staging a stunt in which he rode in his custom tour bus to a nearby church and nailed a proclamation reading "Jesus Christ is not God" to its door. Followers wore matching straw hats emblazoned with the same words, and bus horns blared as the great "Reformer" drove off after he posed for the appropriate photos. TWI has now replaced VP with a new "Man of God," and forbids followers to cite Wierwille anymore. Wierwille founded TWI to carry out his world-changing plan. VP made himself the President and Founder and declared its anniversary to be not the day of its founding, but the personal experience he claimed he had with God. As one of only three trustees, VP essentially made all the policy, financial and theological decisions in TWI (he bragged that TWI didn't have the tradition-laden practice of membership, thereby making his autocratic control seem beneficent rather than overbearing). Though he flaunted the term "international," TWI's comparative influence around the world has been negligible. By the time he died, he apparently was upset that his successors were ignoring his input. TWI has lost about 95% of all its followers (those who took the PFAL class) and numbers only about 5,000 today-- barely a shadow of its former self, and hardly a blip of the radar screen of American religion. Since Wierwille condemned seminaries and colleges that didn't accept his teaching and class, he wanted to start his own college and seminary and ordain his own clergy. In fact, he wanted to ordain his own clergy even while he was the pastor of a very small church, and didn't understand why his denomination considered this to be impertinent and egotistical. Wierwille soon began to ordain his own clergy (under the auspices of "The Way, Incorporated"). Wierwille long wanted to start his own seminary. Since he came to spurn "tradition," he changed the name from "The Way Seminary" to "the Way Corps." Wierwille oversaw all the Corps training, teaching, administration and placement, and required all graduates to appear at his annual "Corps Week" meeting before the "Rock of Ages" gathering. About 95% of the Corps graduates have severed ties with TWI, and it trains just a handful of people now (even though TWI counts children, making its numbers seem higher). Wierwille also founded "The Way College of Emporia" (Kansas) which he promised would offer bachelors' degrees in liberal arts and theology. Of course, VP was the first president. VP's college never was accredited, never conferred recognized degrees, closed within 15 years and never was replaced by anything better. Part of Wierwille's teaching on "abundant living" was his claim that he could teach people to "believe" so that they could always be healthy, illness-free and prosperous. This could even drive off the evil devil spirits that he said caused cancer. He and his followers thought he excelled at believing since he was the "Master Teacher." But his followers were disillusioned again when Wierwille had a series of strokes and eye cancer (which necessitated the removal of one eye) before dying of liver cancer at only age 68. TWI tried to keep his demise as secret as possible (even though he had a stroke while teaching on stage at "the Rock") because of the embarrassment of "The Man of God" being so desperately ill. Many followers were shocked when he "suddenly" died without explanation and were never told the cause. The Corps he left behind today live in nearly pallid conditions, typically sharing a trailer and phones and receiving room, board and a pittance each month. Wierwille also sought to be a great author. Followers brag that he published a dozen ground-breaking books in his lifetime. Then he truth came out-- Wierwille had plagiarized large sections of his books. He promoted his book Receiving the Holy Spirit Today as "the most thorough and original" book on the topic. However, more than half of it was copied from EW Bullinger's The Giver and His Gifts and JE Stiles' The Gift of the Holy Spirit. Wierwille not only copied the ideas and general content-- he also copied sections word-for-word. His book Power for Abundant Living (which actually is a transcription of the first third of his class) is drawn largely from Bullinger's Companion Bible. Parts of his other books, magazine articles and classes are copied from Bullinger, Stiles, B.G. Leonard, EW Kenyon, Ernest Martin and others. Some of VP's longest books weren't even written by him-- they were written by committee, and he put his name on them. While those books allude to his research team, Wierwille's name alone appears on the cover. While VP promoted himself as a researcher who discovered new truths in the Bible as a result of personal, innovative study of the Bible alone (In PFAL he claimed to have dumped all his books in the city dump and studied the Bible alone), he actually largely let others study the Word for him and copied their work. The wasn't primarily a word craftsman, but a word thief. Wierwille also sought to defend the free world from communism (Wierwille politically was a conservative capitalist). He told his followers to be prepared to survive a communist takeover of the USA. They were to have supplies on hand, be armed, and have at least a half tank of gas at all times. He started the LEAD outdoor academy to train them in survival skills. There even was one aborted attempt by a Wayer (who was an ex-Marine) to train Corps to survive prison camps. As history shows, the USSR fell, not America, and TWI's survival training is now defunct. Along the way, Wierwille also started his own police force, "The Way International Police Department," with its own officers, cruisers and insignia. The state of Ohio saw this abuse of power and used legislation to shut down TWI's police within 18 months. Wierwille also wanted to make TWI grounds (which had been his parents' farm) into a successful agriculture and fur-raising business. He also had an idea of designing a snow-climbing machine. VP Wierwille had grand visions of changing the world forever through the force of his own will, intelligence, anointing from God, revelation and knowledge of the Word of God. Instead, Wierwille was just a "wanna be." All of his grand ideas were impotent and fell to ruin within about 20 years. As hard as his devoted, well-meaning followers worked, VP's designs were shown to be "the worst," not "the best." Above all, VP Wierwille lacked humility and apparently didn't apply Romans 12:3 to himself, "do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgement." He also lacked respect for the work of Christian leaders, teachings and the Church at large, and became one of these who "will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:30). Sadly, his followers have paid a greater price than he. While he saw many of his feeble endeavors begin to fail, he died before they turned completely to ruin. But his followers were greatly disillusioned, felt their efforts were mostly in vain, and still find it hard to be involved in Christian ministries because of how he drummed into them the idea that they were all deluded by "tradition." Wierwille's successor, Martindale, on the other hand, has given up on Wierwille's grandiose ideas. He has sold property, forced honest critics out of TWI, closed the college, and so forth. In part, he seems to delude himself into thinking that the grand decline of TWI is somehow an advance. Although PFAL never reached more than an infintisimal fraction of North America's population (to say nothing of the world), Martindale declared that the goal of getting the "word over the world" had already been accomplished. He teaches that the 95% of TWI's followers who left were all spiritually corrupt and had to go in order to have a "clean" Way household. Martindale (and The Way International) isn't a wannabe-- he's a "has-been" who thinks he "is." Dr. John Juedes, 1999, www.empirenet.com/-messiah7

If that's true, I'd say one who HAS would be John Juedes. I was just about to quote him.... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm "WIERWILLE BORROWS A Challenge to the Originality of His Teaching on "Receiving the Holy Spirit" by John P. Juedes Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of The Way International, says that he resolutely searched for the power of the Holy Spirit after he left his pastorate in Van Wert, Ohio, in 1944. He says his quest was finally fulfilled when he spoke in tongues in Tulsa, Okla., under the ministry of the Rev. John Edwin Stiles Sr., who was an important figure in the American charismatic movement. Although one would expect that Stiles would have had a profound influence on Wierwille, "the teacher" never again mentions him in Way literature. A close look reveals that there is a reason for Wierwille's silence-- Wierwille stole Stiles' ideas and even his very words from his book The Gift of the Holy Spirit, all the while claiming that God taught him everything he knew and that he learned none of it from other men's books. Stiles was born in northern California in 1891. He studied and taught at the University of California and was a farmer. In the late 1920s, he decided to become a full-time minister. He explored the Foursquare denomination, but settled into the Assemblies of God. He served as a pastor in Woodland, Calif., for two years and in Hayward, Calif., for 17 more. The Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal bodies had long taught that a Christian could receive the Holy Spirit only by "tarrying" and pleading with God until agonizing insights and personal worthiness were rewarded with an experience of the Spirit. Influenced by Howard Carter, Stiles bucked tradition when he insisted that the Bible taught that the Holy Spirit was received by simple faith, not by wrestling with God. Incensed denominational officials reprimanded Stiles, accusing him of leading people into a "light" or "unselfconscious" experience with the Holy Spirit. Stiles left the parish ministry around 1946 to travel and spread his message of receiving the Spirit by faith alone. In 1959, Stiles estimated that he had led 10,000 people into receiving the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, including about 1,000 in an eight-month tour of Canada. Moved by a lack of biblical teaching on receiving the Holy Spirit, Stiles published a pamphlet called "How to Receive the Holy Spirit" for free distribution after his meetings. Stiles also published a book called The Gift of the Holy Spirit in 1948. This book told how to receive the Holy Spirit by faith, evidenced by speaking in tongues. The book became a classic, especially among those who had been frustrated by strained attempts to receive the Spirit. The book went through 10 printings totaling over 50,000 copies. (1) Given the wide distribution of Stiles' literature, Wierwille's intense search for the power of the Holy Spirit, and Wierwille's personal contact with Stiles, it would be a surprise to find that Wierwille had never come upon his writings. Accordingly, one wonders why Wierwille never mentions Stiles' publications in footnotes or anywhere else. The similarities between portions of Stiles' The Gift of the Holy Spirit and Wierwille's Receiving the Holy Spirit Today (First edition, 1954, six years after Stiles' book appeared) suggest one reason for the silence. We invite you to examine the following excerpts from these two books, with an eye for similarities in ideas and terminology: " Follow the link back for a great chart: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm "A comparison of these books gives us insights into Wierwille's methodology and integrity. The unwritten code of honor among authors tells them to fully credit another writer when borrowing his ideas or terminology. This is why footnotes mark scholarly productions. Many men who have plagiarized as Wierwille did have been fined, sued or fired. Furthermore, authors' integrity and copyright laws demand that direct and indirect quotations of another writer be noted, even when another's work is not copyrighted. (3) Wierwille's methods do not reflect the integrity that the secular world expects, to say nothing of the integrity that God demands. Yet, there is an even more important issue than integrity. Wierwille not only claims to be a scholar, he also claims to publish original material on the Spirit and that he is taught by God and His Word alone. Wierwille counts his ministry as beginning the day that God audibly assured Wierwille that He Himself would teach him. Wierwille claims in the preface to Receiving the Holy Spirit Today that he used only the Bible as a reference for the book. Sadly, Wierwille again falls far short of his own claims, of the mark of scholarly integrity, and of God's moral expectations. " http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_sources.htm "WAS WIERWILLE A GREAT AUTHOR? by JOHN P. JUEDES Members of The Way International hold in high esteem the writings of founder Victor Paul Wierwille. His teachings embody the group's theology and practice, and are the primary rule by which The Way's researchers decide which verses of the Bible may be deleted or revised (The Integrity of the God-Breathed Word, May-June 1975, pg. 7). The courses Wierwille teaches (via video tape), including Power for Abundant Living, for decades were essentially required for acceptance by anyone who wishes to participate in The Way International. Wierwille's followers produced a book, The Living Word Speaks, which lauded the quality and volume of his writings with a chronological bibliography. His followers also value. his. writings as unique and original in our day, being based entirely on his own biblical research with God Himself as mentor (The Way -- Living In Love, second edition, 1972, pg. 178). When one understands the nature and origin of Wierwille's writings, one also understands something about him as a man. Further, when one understands the writings, one realizes that Wierwille does not deserve the esteem bestowed upon him. Categorizing His Work Wierwille's writings fall into three categories of character and origin: transcribed sermons and teachings, books actually written by him and books written by others in his name. The majority fall into the first category, including the Studies in Abundant Living series, Victory in Christ, parts of Jesus Christ is Not God, and most magazine articles. The style is sermonic; Wierwille alternately quotes a few verses of Scripture and then follows with commentary. It is easy to "write" a book in this manner. All Wierwille needed was an audience to discipline him to give regular teachings, a tape recorder and a transcriber. Rhoda Wierwille, Wierwille's secretary since 1947 (and who later became his sister-in-law), remembers transcribing the tapes of his Power for Abundant Living teachings into a 900-page manuscript that later was edited into a book of the same name. Any pastor who preaches regularly could produce a 500-page book every year using this method. Wierwille made his output seem even larger by printing certain articles several times, as chapters of books and in several different issues of his magazine. This is apparent from identical titles listed in the bibliography of Writings of Victor Paul Wierwille in The Living Word Speaks (1981, pp. xv-xxx). The greatest weakness of this method is that it is easy to say inaccurate things in a live situation. For instance, when Wierwille gave his Power for Abundant Living teaching on Hebrews 11:5, he stated that the word "see" in Greek is anablepo, which, he said, means to see with one's eyes (see Power for Abundant Living, 1971, pg. 191). Anablepo was changed to eidon some time after the second printing, though the text around the word was left unchanged - a sign that Wierwille's interpretation of the verse would be the same no matter what Greek word was used. No one has ever found a Greek manuscript with the word anablepo used there. However, Wierwille was using his English Bible, guessed wrong on what the Greek word was and bunt his whole case against the orthodox Interpretation of this passage on a false statement. As one reads some of his teachings, it appears that he did not do any significant research before his presentation. Consequently, Wierwille's exegesis, exposition and applications often are superficial. Examples in the second category include portions of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today and Are the Dead Alive Now? It takes more time and effort to sit down and write than it does to merely speak and have someone else transcribe a tape, and it usually makes a person more careful in what is put into print. However, there is a temptation in written work to plagiarize and Wierwille succumbed to it. He copied some parts of J. E. Stiles' book, The Gift of The Holy Spirit, published in 1948, into his Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, published in 1954, almost word for word. Wierwille also incorporated every section of E.W. Bullinger's book, The Giver and His Gifts, published in 1905, into this book, copying some sections almost word for word (see PFO Newsletter, Jan.- Mar., 1983, pp. 1, 10-11). In fact, if one were to delete from Receiving the Holy Spirit Today all the words and ideas that he took from Stiles' and Bullinger's books, little would remain. Wierwille also included some sections of Bullinger's works in his book, Are the Dead Alive Now? This will be dealt with in more detail In a later article. It is likely that more plagiarism will be brought to light, too. Plagiarisms are most noticeable in the earliest editions of Wierwille's books, before rewritings obscured them. One cannot overemphasize how dependent Wierwille was on the ideas of other men to fuel his teachings. He absorbed teachings from many men, including Glenn Clark, Albert Cliffe, Rufus Mosely and George Lamsa, none of whom are Christian teachers according to the standards of either evangelicals or The Way International. The many willing writers found among Way membership as it grew in the 1970s gave birth to the third category of Wierwille writings. Examples are Jesus Christ Our Passover, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed and portions of Jesus Christ is Not God. One photo in The Way Magazine showed his eight person research team working on a manuscript of Jesus Christ Our Passover (President's Newsletter, The Way Magazine, Nov.- Dec., 1979, pg. 28). Use of a writing team expedites larger volumes and makes possible deeper treatments of a topic. However, to conform to the rules of scholarly practice, Wierwille should have listed himself as the general editor of these works, rather than author. One is left with the impression that the writing was done by him rather than by others. The material does reflect Wierwille's theology, since he picked the writers, approved the production and contributed material. Wierwille the Author All this suggests that Wierwille's primary talents did not lie in writing. Apparently, he rarely took the time or care, or perhaps just did not have the ability. It may be that this also reflects shallow research abilities and a tendency to "shoot from the hip" in teaching, which - led to inaccuracies. Wierwille combined a lack of original research with a tendency to grab unusual ideas from others and publish them as his own. The most alarming facet of this was Wierwille's plagiarism. The Way International rests its teaching primarily on the integrity and authority of Wierwille, its founder. When the founder's lack of integrity and authority is demonstrated, it calls the foundation of the group into question. Those wanting to witness to members of The Way should be ready to demonstrate just how faulty a foundation The Way is built upon. "

New song. ============= "The words that I remember From my childhood still are true, That there's none so blind As those who will not see. And to those who lack the courage And say it's dangerous to try- Well they just don't know That love eternal will not be denied!"

Most of you are aware that there were 2 types of book that say "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. The SECOND type-which came later-were written by committee, and the research staff wrote 100% of the contents except the introduction/preface. That's books like "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" and "Jesus Christ Our Passover." vpw himself otherwise provided zero percent of the contents. The FIRST type-which describes most of "vpw's" books- were the result of taking one book of one author and retyping its contents, or taking more than one book and inserting chapters and retyping their aggregate contents. Almost all of vpw's "signature books" fall in this category. =========================================== The White Book, "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today"... RTHST's 1st edition was Jack E. Stiles' "the Gift of the Holy Spirit", with a few words moved around. Its introduction included an anonymous reference to a man of God who taught him on this subject. That's the Stiles whose book this was a complete photocopy of. Later editions deleted all mention of ANY man teaching him on the subject (3rd edition and later). Later editions also featured EW Bullinger's "the Giver and His Gifts". (This book is currently available under the name "Word Studies on the Holy Spirit.") The Bullinger book is the source of the 385 occurrences of "pneuma" in the New Testament. (Which vpw was unable to even pronounce correctly.) Small portions of the White Book were also taken from BG Leonard's CTC "Gifts of the Spirit" class. =================================== The "Power For Abundant Living" book was, of course, a transcription from the class of the same name. The Orange Book's origins therefore are the same as the origins of the class. In its first iteration, that meant it was the exact same thing as Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit course. Later iterations pruned out the Advanced class from the "PFAL Foundation" class, and filled in the remaining space with Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible", and culminating the class with Sessions 9-12, which were Stiles and Bullinger's works on Holy Spirit. =============================== The "original" PFAL (what I call its first iteration) was a clone of Leonard's class in EVERY detail. Leonard's class had imaginary characters called Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco. (I'm not sure about Snowball Pete or Herman B.) Leonard was Canadian. Maggie Muggins was a children's television character easily recognizable by his audience by name. (As if you said "Captain Kangaroo then said..." or "then Big Bird said...) Johnny Jumpup is the name of a plant. Using those 2 names as characters in a class, however, that was straight out of Leonard. Herman Belocco probably started due to an inability of vpw to precisely recall EXACTLY what was in Leonard's class-so sometimes it was Henry, sometimes it was Herman. Snowball Pete was mentioned ONCE in pfal, and doesn't match the pattern Leonard normally used-normal first name, possible normal last name. This suggests-if I may engage in wild speculation-that this was made up by vpw in a pitiful attempt at originality. One of our posters-who took Leonard's class-said that vpw even ripped off Leonard's speech patterns and style, which made it eerie to hear Leonard teach after hearing vpw imitate him. Leonard handled publishing under Canadian Christian Press. vpw handled publishing under American Christian Press. Someone also pointed out that one of Leonard's books contains an introduction that slightly resembles one of vpw's claims. Expand it, add grandiose claims, and an imaginary snowstorm, and you have the 1943 promise. (Leonard never claimed God told him he was unique nor mentioned the 1st century church to him.) ================================== "Are the Dead Alive Now?" is a compilation of some of Bullinger's works, most notably "the Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State?" and "King Saul and the Witch of Endor: Did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?" Most readers will note that vpw also ripped off the "title with question mark" in addition to the content of the books. ==== "Studies in Human Suffering", later called "Job: Victim to Victor", was taken from Bullinger's book "the Book of Job". That became a large chapter in one of the "Studies in Abundant Living". ============================= Ok, the White Book's Preface, pages ix to xi, which is the ENTIRE preface.) ======== "When I was serving my first congregation, a Korean missionary asked me, 'Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which would teach Christian believers the HOW of a really victorious life?' This challenge was the beginning of a search which led me through many, many hours of examining different English translations, the various critical Greek texts, and Aramaic 'originals', looking for the source of the power which was manifested in the early Church. Finally I realized that the experience referred to as 'receiving the holy spirit' in the Scriptures WAS and IS actually available to every born-again believer today. I believed to receive the gift of holy spirit and I, too, manifested. Ever since receiving into manifestation the holy spirit, I have had the desire to put in written form the longings and fears that were mine regarding the receiving thereof. I believe that sharing my quest with the believers who are today seeking to be endued with power from on high may be instrumental in leading them to the answer of their hearts' desires. I knew from the Bible that what God sent at Pentecost was still available. It had to be, for God does not change. I knew that the receiving of the power from on high on the day of Pentecost had meant increased ability for the apostles and disciples years ago, and that I needed and wanted the same blessing. I knew that if the Church ever needed the holy spirit in manifestation it needed it now. Throughout my academic training in a college, a university, four seminaries, from the commentaries I studied, and from my years of questing and research among the various religious groups claiming adherence to the holy spirit's availability, there appeared many things contradictory to the accuracy of the recorded Word of God. I knew their teachings were sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee for truth. The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all that I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. I did not want to omit, deny, or change any passage for, the Word of God being the will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove. If you are a Christian believer, I sincerely encourage you to study this book. Do not allow your past teachings or feelings to discourage you from going on to receive God's best. If you need power and ability to face up to the snares of this live, you may find your answer while reading this book. It is my prayer that you may be edified, exhorted, and comforted. For those searching the Scriptures, desiring to know the reasons why, how, what or where, I suggest you do a careful study of the introductions as well as the appendices in this volume. For those who simply desire to receive, read chapters 1 though 5 and enjoy God's great presence and power. "II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." To his helpers and colleagues every writer owes a profound debt. This seventh edition has been read and studies carefully by men and women of Biblical and spiritual ability. To all of these I am most grateful." ========= End of Preface. ----------------------------------------------- -=============================================== It is interesting to compare the Preface to the White Book, 7th Edition, which I already quoted, with the Preface in the 2nd edition. ===== Here's how one paragraph ORIGINALLY read in the 2nd edition, (pg-8): "The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had been taught and start anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. It took me seven years to find a man of God schooled in the Holy Spirit, a man who knew the Scripture on the Holy Spirit, and could fit it together so that I dod not have to omit, deny or change any one passage. He made the Scripture fit like a hand fits into a glove, and when you can do that, you can be assured of having truth." ======== Here's the corresponding paragraph in the 7th Edition, the one most of us got to read: ====== "The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all that I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. I did not want to omit, deny, or change any passage for, the Word of God being the will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove." ====== Interesting how the other man just VANISHES from the picture, no? It's as if vpw later wants to take exclusive credit ("I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook") for something that was exclusively the result of Stiles-the UNNAMED Christian-working for God ("...He made the Scripture fit like a hand fits into a glove...") ====================================================

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I heard the same- even after LEAVING TWI.

Probably "Promise-Keepers." They hold each other accountable for honoring their commitments, noting that they are not "Promise-MAKERS", they are "Promise-KEEPERS." The sad part is that there's lots of UNBELIEVERS who have no difficulty understanding keeping themselves from sinful behavior on the grounds that it's harmful to themselves. They're called "Straight Edge." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Straight_edge "In its simplest form, straight edge is a philosophy of staying clean and sober: meaning refraining from using alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. For some, this extends to not engaging in promiscuous sex, following a vegetarian or vegan diet, not using caffeine or prescription drugs." "Originally, straight edge was most closely associated with hardcore punk which developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s" Interesting-while vpw was trying to get the hippie Jesus People to sin, there were punk rockers at the same time abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and promiscuous sex. Except for possibly the drugs (vpw didn't take them, he just drugged women), it almost sounds like an anti-vpw movement- HE chain-smoked, drank alcohol daily in his "coffee mug" and used mints all day to hide the breath, and tried his hardest to engage in promiscuous sex. http://www.straightedge.com/whatissxe.html "People who are straight edge do not smoke, do drugs or consume alcohol. There are no dietary or religious beliefs tied to straight edge contrary to media coverage." "The basic beliefs that drugs and alcohol were not needed and should be rejected. That one should live against the grain of popular society and live by rules and standards from themselves and not the ones dictated by society." Without a single verse of Scripture, they figured out that they should ignore the world's standards and act by standards that avoided behavior of self-harm....which, of course, meant they skipped on much sinful behavior. Many young Christians say the same (I've communicated with them in the last few decades.) The main exceptions I've known, actually, are twi and ex-twi. "If the world was flat I'd grind the edge To the positive youth my heart I pledge X on my hand now take the oath To positive youth to positive growth To positive minds, to pure clean souls These will be all my goals." Sure doesn't remind me of the "do as you fool-well please" vpw position. These SECULARISTS seem to have a healthier "ministry" than this supposed "godly" man. He was LOOKING for orgies. These people sound like they'd either flee one, or-possibly- break one up like Jesus and the moneychangers. http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Straight-Edge "1. Refrain from illicit substances, such as alcohol, illegal drugs, and tobacco products. Straight-edgers reject the drug/alcohol lifestyle and instead choose not to pollute the body. However, occasional consumption of controlled amounts of alcohol are acceptable to some straight-edgers." So, sXe people either avoid all alcohol, or the more moderate will tolerate SOME drinking but condemn DRUNKENNESS. That's also the Biblical position. "2. Respect your body. Contrary to common belief about hardcore punk, the straight-edge lifestyle in no way promotes self-harm of any kind. This means no cutting, burning, or harming yourself." Again, sXe people, by using reason and logic, ended up on the same side as Scripture- respect your body and take care of it, that's good stewardship. "3.Abstain from promiscuity. This means that you shouldn't engage in casual hookups, one-night stands, etc." Without a moral basis beyond reason and logic, they hit on the Scriptural position again. Mind you, these 3 rules would have made sXe thoroughly unwelcome wherever vpw was running things. vpw often "talked a good talk" in public-since he KNEW what behavior was wrong- but for vpw, the reality was to COVER HIS TRACKS and SIN WHENEVER HE WANTED. "4. Listen to straight-edge bands. This cannot be stressed enough. If you're straight-edge, then you should also listen to and appreciate the music. Start off with Minor Threat, then look for some related bands if you like them. 5. Learn the history of straight-edge. Research about the music, people, etc." As a secular movement, they have no "Bible" to teach them morals- but their lyrics pass them along. So, to keep the movement alive, they listen to lyrics that teach good morals, and seek to learn the history of their movement, which is a good idea. Oddly enough, you may notice vpw did his best to hide from Christian history, except for a few moments- after the last book of the Bible was penned, there's a history blackout until the Council of Nicaea, then there's another history blackout until the Protestant Reformation and William Tyndale, then there's another history blackout until 1942 with vpw's supposed promise, then another history blackout (even of his OWN LIFE) until he meets with the Jesus People and hijacks the hippies around 1968-1969. Personally, I think a lot of it is LAZINESS- vpw skipped Church history when in various seminaries. He's as good as said it was all useless. He also skipped Bible languages when in various seminaries. He's as good as said he's learned BETTER than they could teach as a layman. ========================== Forgot to link Promise-Keepers.... http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about "Since its founding in 1990, Promise Keepers’ mission has been to ignite and unite men to become warriors who will change their world through living out the Seven Promises. Now, we have expanded our mission to encompass the entire Body of Christ. We’re still challenging men; however, we’re adding ministry to women and young adults—the family!" "Many people in the Church today are Biblically illiterate." "PK’s goal is to ignite a revolution that will instill passion for hearing, obeying and daily meditating in the Word of God." "To those who want to be part of the answer to the moral and spiritual decay in America; to those who desire their church to be a vibrant example of God’s love; to those who want to reach their community, their city and their world for Christ – the message of Promise Keepers is more timely, relevant, and vital than ever before." http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/7-promises "PEOMISE 1 A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit. PROMISE 2 A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises. PROMISE 3 A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity. PROMISE 4 A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values. PROMISE 5 A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources. PROMISE 6 A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity. PROMISE 7 A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew 28:19-20)." Their summarized beliefs are here: http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/statement-of-faith Their unabridged beliefs (plus chapter and verse) are here: http://www.promisekeepers.org/home/about/statement-of-faith/statement-of-faith-with-scripture-references Those who flee in fear as soon as the word "Trinity" is spoken will find Promise Keepers to be vile. The rest of us, who can actually read the rest of the page, will find much to commend them for. "The Gospel is good news, the very best news anyone can hear. Children can understand it; it is so profound that the wisest theologians will never exhaust its riches. The Gospel announces that God loved the world so profoundly that He gave His Son to die on the cross for lost sinners. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins. Christ’s resurrection makes ours possible. Whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is the only Savior, the one and only mediator between God and humanity, the only hope of the world." "The Bible is the revealed Word of God, given in and through the words of human writers whom the Holy Spirit inspired and guided. The Bible is truthful in all that it affirms and without error as originally given by God. The Bible tells us what we need to know about God, His law, His salvation, and how we should live. The Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and life. It alone is the final authority establishing all Christian doctrine." etc.

If you start with the postulate AUTOMATICALLY that vpw pleased God, you end up with ideas like "God helped a sinner not get caught sinning, aka God's guilty of 'Aiding and Abetting' the very things He condemned." If you start with postulates like "pfal was God-breathed", (which John has not said that I am aware of), then you end up with ideas like "God told vpw to plagiarize". If you begin by taking false information as your starting point, your "given" in formal logic, the rest of your process will be in error since you started with error.

Don't forget- "bless patrol" was a PLAN B. vpw originally wanted to MAKE UP A PRIVATE POLICE FORCE. http://www.precastconcrete.org/~messiah7/quz_ipolicar.htm "One Way activity which was very disturbing to Ohio residents was the creation of The Way International Police Department in 1978, partly intended to reduce vandalism of its property. Shelby County Prosecutor Scott Jarvis, who was at times under fire for conflict of interest since he was also general counsel for TWI, set up a police force under Ohio revised Code 3771.01. This 1874 law, called the Chautauga section, was originally authored to allow Chautauga gatherings to set up security for their events. Way Rev. Charlie Quillen became chief of police and Wierwille's son John Paul was one of the first officers. The Way purchased a pursuit car, uniforms and badges and designed an insignia. The Way police functioned much like any municipal police force, carrying weapons and stopping vehicles on the roads. "They had a squad car with flashing lights and everything," said Brent Henschen of the New Knoxville Police Department, "Heck, they even pulled me over once." Shelby County Sheriff John Lenhart showed his concern about the Way police by taking steps to control their powers. He pointed out specific ways the 1874 law could easily be abused and commented, "...I don't think that's healthy. There's no checks and balances. There's no mayor they answer to, no town council that they answer to." Lenhart refused to deputize Way police and to grant them access to nationwide police records. He asked the office of County Prosecutor Jarvis if Way police had power to block off roads and stop cars, and received the opinion that Way police had no such jurisdiction on roadways. Shelby County officials also prevented Way policemen from taking an Ohio Peace Officers training course. The Way International Police Department was terminated within 18 months of its inception as the Ohio government moved to intervene. When The Way tried to extend its police power into neighboring Auglaize County, Judge Jacob Boesel of the Auglaize county Municipal Court ruled the Chautauga law unconstitutional. State Rep. Dale Locker tried to resolve the matter entirely by introducing a bill, which was strengthened and passed by the Interstate Cooperation Committee. In April 1979 the Ohio House passed the amended bill to remove the entire Chautauga section from the Code. While this bill effectively terminated The Way International Police Department, Way security continues to pose as police. Although the sign on the highway says, "you are welcome at The Way," the behavior of Way security gives every visitor the clear impression that they are not welcome at The Way. Security has become increasingly aggressive, quickly and thoroughly investigating (even interrogating?) anyone who appears on campus without a name tag. They run off anyone who is not currently active in a Way-controlled fellowship (formerly "twig") and who doesn't have a Way escort. Way security personnel try to intimidate outsiders by dressing as police officers-- complete with utility belt, holster, CB-style microphone clipped to shoulder, metal badge with the word "patrolman" prominently stamped on it, and white vehicles with a seal painted on the door and emergency lights on top." http://www.pfo.org/closeway.htm http://www.eee.org/~messiah7/tdy_closing.htm http://www.equip.org/articles/sweeping-changes-in-the-way-international "The Way’s security force has become increasingly aggressive, quickly and thoroughly investigating anyone who appears at functions like the Rock of Ages conferences9 or is on their campus without a Way nametag. They run off anyone who is not currently active in a Way-controlled twig and who doesn’t have a Way escort. Way security personnel try to intimidate outsiders by dressing as police officers — complete with utility belt, holster, CB-style microphone clipped to a shoulder, metal badge with the word “patrolman” prominently stamped on it, and white vehicles with a seal painted on the door and emergency lights on top." If they could have a real police force, they would. So, they have a fake one, and do everything they can to deceive people into thinking it's a real police force. twi faking something and deceiving people- is this news to anyone any more?

Move over, Rover- and let JIMMY take over! This is "Fire", by Jimi Hendrix.

Old story, too- sinning and pretending things "just happened." ======================================= Exodus 32 1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. 3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD. 6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. 7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. 20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it. 21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them? 22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief. 23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf. ================================================== Aaron fashioned the golden calf himself. When caught, the calf "just happened"- he put gold in the fire, and presto! This calf just popped out! Aaron was minding his own business. And then it happened- the golden calf came out of the fire.

Therein lies the problem. See, you still don't see this, but history isn't something that happens to you. Each person is a active participant in their own life. How does sin happen? Not by surprise. George Carlin, of all people, explained this decades ago. "A mortal sin had to be -a grievous offense -sufficient reflection, and -FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL." "It was a sin for you to WANT to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to PLAN to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to FIGURE OUT A PLACE to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE to feel her up. It was a sin for you to TRY to feel her up, and it was a sin for you to FEEL her up. There were SIX SINS in ONE FEEL, man!" He had the main point- although all of that was ONE sin. There were SIX STEPS to REACH ONE SIN. Sin doesn't just HAPPEN to you-you happen to IT. You might see Ellen and desire her. Then what? A man who cares about what God says then CHANGES HIS FOCUS and puts it on something else. The end of the story about Ellen. A man who cares only about his own lusts, however, takes the DESIRE ("WANT to feel up Ellen") and then makes the deliberate decision to prepare the sin. (PLAN to feel up Ellen, FIGURE OUT A PLACE.") He then makes the decision to put his plan in action-although he could have turned aside instead ("TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE". "TRY".) You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up. The truth of the matter was that he made deliberate decisions to sin- and picked specific women as the most opportune targets. He had placeS prepared, to make sin easier. He then used his network of co-conspirators (certain lewd fellows and women of the baser sort) to arrange to have the women meet him in places he planned to rape or molest them. To them, it was a surprise- to him, it was another step in a detailed plan. Once there, he gave them lots of situational ethics sayings and rationalizations, and usually tried to "seal the deal" with alcohol and drugs. What should he have done? That's easy. Billy Graham, I have no doubt, has seen many, many attractive women. What has he done about it, and what has he NOT done about it? What he has NOT done: He has not had places arranged to sin with them, he has not arranged for cheap motel rooms nor offices nor vehicles set up for cheating on his wife. What he HAS done: He has made a policy of never being alone with a woman, not even in an elevator, and keeps his office door open, making it difficult for lustful sins to pursue him into the office. (Hard to sneak around and sin if you always have witnesses around. King Saul was required to have witnesses with him to prevent that, and to ensure he could not be accused of that because he always had men with him.) You posted Ham being in a marriage that has failed for years, and then meeting some woman he's attracted to, who's attracted to him, is not his wife, and she's eager to perform lustful activities with him. "And then it happens." No, see, you can't just dump Ham into this situation. If Ham's in a marriage, he has an idea if it's working or not. Ham has the option of trying to fix it, leave it alone, or dissolve the marriage. Many Christians who are not sex maniacs have no problem trying to fix a marriage, and trying harder to fix it if they didn't succeed initially. Finally, if it's unfixable, they'd be honest and end the marriage. A bad relationship that CAN'T be fixed is NOT a marriage, anyway, no matter what you call it. So, Ham would not find himself several years into a bad marriage, then wondering what to do if a hot babe wanted to do the horizontal hucklebuck with him. He's be in a repaired marriage, or be divorced. If he was divorced, he couldn't be unfaithful to a wife if he decides to dance the horizontal with some theoretical nymphomaniacal contortionist. (He'd still be sinning, but not with a wife.) See, lots of Christian men each day decide not to sin against God, so they don't run around having sex and satisfying their lusts. That includes the young and impulsive. When one is over 30, over 40, it becomes a lot easier, since the lusts become more subordinate to the will as one ages. Men don't just get up, generally, and have someone just orchestrate a situation and dump THEM in the middle of it. If some woman tries to make THEM a sex object, the man can see the plan forming- a private place for him to be taken, etc, and makes sure he's never in a fully private place with the woman. I'm not going to go into the detail of theoretically blaming Mrs W because vpw himself kept going out and trying to drug women and perform the horizontal mambo with them.] I would not trust a mechanic whose car always broke down to fix mine. If a computer tech's PC was always getting viruses, I'm keeping his hands off my machine. I don't trust a 300-pound diet doctor. I don't trust a Psychologist who gets into shouting matches with his receptionist. If a man wants to tell me what God wants, and keeps making plans to sin whenever he's not trying to tell me what God wants, I do NOT trust him to understand God nor to serve Him. Why would you have a LOWER standard for a minister of God than for a mechanic, a diet doctor, a computer tech? Anything to excuse vpw.... VPW covered for vpw. vpw set up a NETWORK of sinners to facilitate and assist in his sins. He was VERY thorough in making sure he didn't get caught when he sinned, and that his victims would not be BELIEVED if they TOLD THE TRUTH to anyone. God disapproves of sin and does NOT FACILITATE SIN- which means God WOULD NOT "cover for vpw's sins." The part that is NOT a gray area is that God tells us what sin is, tells us to avoid it, and tells us it's wrong. Anyone saying otherwise-or trying to excuse sin or justify sin- should NOT be trusted as authorities concerning God.