WordWolf

Depending on what you mean by that, I might either strongly agree, or strongly DISagree. After years of being exposed to the pablum of "Sunday" school, I became agnostic, and waved away the Bible. They convinced me they supposedly knew the Bible and based their doctrine on it. Since their doctrine was bushwah, I concluded the Bible was, also, and discarded it for life. When I was college age and exposed to what the Bible actually says, instead of the atheism and agnosticism I was pointing towards (as well as other stuff), I believed its contents- nicely ironic considering how dismissive I had been of it a few months previously. After DECADES of being exposed to atheism and agnosticism growing up, as well as some of the pablum taught in "Sunday" school, an intelligent person I know has actually picked up the Bible and begun reading it. So far, they've concluded its contents contain more sense than the pablum they'd been exposed to- and is more internally-consistent than the atheism/agnosticism framework they were brought up to use.

I agree. Some of those killed people (by suicide), ruined lives, and so on. Some people still can't get out of the "vpw's doctrine is correct no matter what" mindset, and remain "casualties" to this day. Raping or molesting God's precious gems because twi doctrine made it all right, IMO, is MUCH worse than "is inerrancy an accurate doctrine"? As I see it, priorities go like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs- first we need food, water, shelter, relative safety, and THEN we can address philosophical point or worldview points. If I had one wish and could retroactively erase exactly ONE doctrine from twi so that it was never thought or acted on, "Is the Bible contradictory" wouldn't even make the Top 10 list. I'd put the stuff that allowed rapes, molestations, abortions, and so on all before it.

See below. Nicely phrased. Looks like you're using a different definition of "contradiction" than some of us. Geisha's usage: "The Bible does not 'contradict' itself- one God gave all the text and all the meaning. All of it is consistent within its own framework. If it 'contradicted', then it would not be internally consistent." Steve's usage: "The Bible 'contradicts' itself- God's usage of irony (correctly used) is but one example of how He uses dramatic figures and other things to communicate a consistent message." I still think this is nicely phrased. I think we can all (almost all of us) agree on this last part, which I hope is where you meant to go.

Well, that's the difference between most Christian groups and twi. Since twi was founded by the sex maniac victor paul wierwille- who went to Haight-Ashbury to try to recruite "the Jesus People" (Christian hippies) to twi- and kept asking one of them to describe what AN ORGY is like- then claimed the Bible said ORGIES were permissible by distorting the meaning of a verse- and embarrassing the Christian he was speaking to. Most groups would have drummed out vpw for his sexcapades when they caught him... then again, that appears to have been what prompted his exit from his previous group... A sex maniac starts a religious group. Naturally, he's going to try to use it to get cheap thrills. Which he did get, eventually. (Well, they were "cheap" for him, but worth the lives of my beloved sisters in Christ, for whom Christ died. For THEM it was expensive.) I'm sure vpw Jr has no idea there were any "irregularities" with vpw I- he's being given the mushroom treatment- keep them in the dark and feed a steady diet of manure. (Hey, it worked in twi-1...)

They didn't ALWAYS throw darts. One eyewitness account here documented them deciding between 2 locations with the toss of a coin.

Ecclesiastes is not about simple, pat answers. Among other things, Ecclesiastes is about the search for the answers to the great questions of life, and the difficult things to understand-so long as we are limited to our limited human perspective (which, pretty much, is us for life.) Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Nice one.

{THERE'S one difference between twi experience being a "costly lesson" and "mistakes one can repeat across a lifetime." We can RELAX around our family and friends. That does not mean we SHUT OFF OUR CRITICAL THINKING around family and friends. That's the difference between having "wait a minute" moments a few hours after someone says something clever yet manipulative, and SILENCING ANY DOUBT when someone says something clever yet manipulative. Someone might fool me for a minute or even a few hours, but let me get in a good night's sleep, and I'll have their clever game figured out. When I was young and naive, I learned too many lessons about people being clever in many ways and manipulative in all of them. Now I may RELAX but I don't shut off my critical thinking skills. I know I'm not the only person here who's been lied to by family or had family ATTEMPT to manipulate them. I know I'm not the only person here who's had friends lie to them or attempt to manipulate them. When it comes to "spiritual family", I know I'm not the only person here who's had "spiritual family" lie to them or attempt to manipulate them. There was a thread recently on how some wayfers had to take to court a member of their "spiritual family" because he lied to them and manipulated them. It worked because they shut off their critical thinking skills with their "spiritual family" and got taken for a LOT of money. "Trust but verify" is a famous saying in many languages, down the centuries. When it comes to family, we can do that. To shut off critical thinking is to set up self and others for ANOTHER big fall. It's how we all got taken the first time with twi- and if we can't see that, we set ourselves up for people to do the same thing to us over and over....in splinter groups, other so-called Christians, outside religious contexts.... Confidence men and snake-oil salesmen LOVE the naive-those who have a criteria for shutting off their critical thinking.] [Actually, the SOURCE CITATION Jesus did was "It Is Written." The "critical thinking" Jesus used at the time was to EVALUATE THE SITUATION. Even when satan ATTEMPTED to quote Scripture to Jesus- AND MISUSE IT because he MISQUOTED IT- Jesus saw past the MISUSE OF SCRIPTURE, no matter how cleverly done, and evaluated the quote, the situation, and the rest of Scripture independently. Eve, on the other hand, "thought" with her lusts. She did NOT use "critical thinking." A cold analysis of the situation would have told her that her conclusion required her to consider God a liar- which was inconsistent with everything she knew about Him. Therefore, the one who contradicted God outright was a liar- and could not be trusted to give a reliable analysis of the situation. However, she heard what she WANTED to hear- and shut off her "critical thinking." People who hear a bunch of speeches about how the organization is a loving family and how its leader loves them so much- and turn off their "critical thinking" in response, are people who join groups like the earlier days of twi, or Jim Jones' group, or so many other groups founded by liars, cheats, and confidence men. How can someone confuse Jesus' careful consideration- and "critical thinking"- for "mind control", or "bibliolatry" or not even know what it was? The most likely possibility is them misunderstanding what each term even means-thus making it easy to make mistakes. Other possibilities include understanding them fully but choosing to blow smoke at the issues by throwing in irrelevant phrases and consideration.]

[Hey, that guy's just as capable of deceiving himself as anyone else.] [Highly doubtful. He probably came away thinking that at least SOME Christians are HYPOCRITES and have no problem being hateful or attacking someone just because they don't like them.] Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. ["corrupt communication". Words that tear down. Ministering grace to someone with words never involves telling them to go flock themselves. It may make the speaker feel good or make someone else giggle, but not because it ministered grace to either of them. This is obvious to many non-Christians if not most, and most non-Christians. Why have you convinced yourself this was a good thing? Just because it was done by someone you liked? The man had a high batting average but has never been the Lord Jesus Christ.... Just because Ralph did it doesn't automatically make it right.] [Actually, this thread includes the subject of self-deception, so this is right on-topic, accidentally.]

[i liked Ralph D at the time, and liked him later. He didn't do that "just to be a jerk"- but was a jerk when he did it despite that. Saying what's in your heart means you're genuine-not that you're right. Members of NAMBLA speak what's in their hearts-but that doesn't make their words "right." It means they are genuine when they talk about molesting children. Again-saying what's in your heart means you're genuine-not that you're right. Furthermore, being "passionate" is no guarantee of being genuine OR right. Every con artist sounds extremely passionate-and he knows he's lying. David Koresh was passionate-and probably genuine- but he most obviously was wrong. Why is it not obvious to everyone that snapping at someone in public and cursing at them-especially where small children are in obvious earshot-is wrong? it may not be as wrong as murdering them, but it is wrong.] [When he was in twi, he thought he was doing the right thing-even when he was being a jerk. After all, the supposedly most spiritual man in the organization was open about yelling and cursing at people when he wanted to. When he realized twi was wrong, he moved away from it. When he realized twi had always been corrupt at the heart, he moved further away from it.] [Hardly. Any con artist fakes something- most never heard of twi or its spinoffs. Many people joined twi to try to do what God wanted- and were genuinely tricked. They MEANT to do the right thing. All accounts are that lcm MEANT to do the right thing- even when he was kicking people out and cursing them out. He was GENUINE but he was not RIGHT. We've discussed that sort of thing lots of times. Many of us who post all the time were GENUINE-at least in all the big ways- when we joined twi. What we're discussing now is how twi taught many of us to spend time NOT being genuine. The worst part of that was lying to OURSELVES and DECEIVING OURSELVES. Until we use BRUTAL self-honesty, anyone who leaves twi is doomed to KEEP lying to themself, possibly for years or even the rest of their life.]

[Actually, I added those words of explanation. When I add the brackets and the boldface, I'm making it clear I'm speaking for myself. That's why I use the underlines for emphasis. The NASB, as you can see, renders similarly to the KJV in that. A quick comparison on Bible Gateway or something similar shows that. My point was that the supposed "sacrifices" made by twi'ers or twi-style Christians are mislabeled as being as bold as Bible examples. However, none of them ever got into the same ballpark as Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.]

Seems to me that things that really are of God don't HAVE precise, discrete boxes of organization. They start when one person does something of God, others respond, and do things of God with them, and then a movement begins developing. Eventually, someone gives it a name and nowadays you end up making it official, but really, that's incidental. With things of man, they start with the precise, neatly-diagrammed organization, and develop from there. No room for the Spirit of God to work- it's all planned out by men who claim to be doing it in God's name and with His approval.

God's Word concerning how "minor" the subject of compassion is for the brethren.... James 2:15-20 (KJV) 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ======================= James 2:15-20 (NASB) 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? ======================== Surely the Lord who wanted some privacy, and instead healed the multitudes that followed him, and also fed them loaves and fishes when all he wanted to do is get alone to pray after receiving devastating news, surely he would recognize that there's more to "Christian service" than Romans 10:9, and more to "serving" than teaching the Bible. (Not that there's anything wrong with teaching the Bible, nor with wishing someone to go in peace, but there's a time for each. Surely those who pride themselves on being CHRISTians, on being "of Christ", can tell the difference between them.

Didn't Jesus himself select a physician, Luke, as one of his disciples? I don't recall any incident recorded where Jesus told him it was a rubbish field. Does anyone recall such an incident? I do know that a number of sound medical principles are recorded in the Mosaic Law, and were eventually adopted by the medical profession. I notice the people at the top of twi never seemed to refuse medical attention in favor of prayer or some alternative method. vpw himself wore glasses the entire time all of us had heard of him, yet he was supposedly the standard of believing and got all sorts of results. Years to operate, and he never got 20/20 vision back- and lost an eye to disease. (He didn't refuse medical attention for that, either.) According to his own account, vpw claimed he never got sick A DAY IN HIS LIFE, and never TOOK AN ASPIRIN A DAY IN HIS LIFE. Me, I figure he was saying a tremendous lie both times. Everything we COULD measure showed he was just another guy who got sick, got hurt, got old, etc, just like everyone else, and was unable to use his "believing" to prevent any of it.

Any unbeliever who has even a basic understanding of health would tell someone who was recovering from food poisoning to do the following, which work for most situations that don't require more serious medical care or specialized care: A) REST B) stay warm C) stay clean D) get nutrition Those promote the body's natural healing systems. (Rest allows the body time to work, staying warm ensures infections won't set in, staying clean will keep away opportunistic infections, and good nutrition gives the body the building blocks to rebuild its health. Of course, twi promoted- and probably still promotes- avoiding rest because you can't slave for them while you're resting. Last I heard, the food at hq for most people was inadequate in both amount and nutritional requirements, too. But it's what twi could get cheaply, so there you go.

Is there a reason to consider that a "healing" other than your desire to shoehorn it into a discussion it does not relate to? The verses say nothing about that being a "healing." Chapter and verse, please... Naaman was healed after washing in the Jordan 7 times. Jesus healed a man's eyes with spit, clay and prayer. Nothing indicates any of these is any sort of "rule." They also have nothing to do with twi insisting that going back to work promotes healing. Which relates to twi saying going back to work promites healing HOW? AFTER a muscle has been healed (a disease removed, damage removed), a professional will often recommend using the muscle again, in slow increments that increase, because that's how a muscle gets strong. Few people have difficulty telling the difference between exercise AFTER healing with a requirement to exercise FOR healing. I'm glad we agree on something. Correlation does not equal causation. Presuming we were even TOLD THE TRUTH (when it comes to twi, that's a big leap), then Howard was left alone for long periods, and eventually his wits returned. Since he was left alone in his office, you're assuming that the office has anything to do with the recovery. If he'd rested in bed, he probably would have recovered exactly the same. (Personally, I think some minimum exposure to input was beneficial, but that could easily be done anywhere.) A lab experiment showed birds were fed randomly, and they began "religiously" performing "superstitious" behavior. The reason was that they were connecting what they had done at the moment the food was given with the food being given. So, they kept repeating those actions to get the food to return. Of course, the actions had nothing to do with the food arriving-that was a complete coincidence. Likewise, correlation does not equal causation. Just because 2 events happen together does not mean one caused the other. More people get frostbite when sales of hot chocolate go up. Does the hot chocolate cause the frostbite? No, the hot chocolate sales go up when the weather gets cold.... Confusing correlation with causation is sloppy thinking. BTW, I could swear twi credited some sort of amazing recovery for Howard to some kind of beet juice or molasses or something. Is that the same incident, or was the man prone to all sorts of mysterious illnesses and recoveries?

I've never SEEN "Scent of a Woman", and I might have gotten it from a few clips I have seen... either a reference to one character being blind (there was something about not needing the OTHER character to grab him), or any of several well-known quotes from the "trial" towards the end. As to the current one, I'll take another guess on a movie I haven't seen... "BLOW"?

I'm almost certain this is not any Marx Brothers movie. (This is coming from a fan who owns most of their movies.) I'm thinking this is either Abbott and Costello, or Laurel and Hardy. I'll take a wild swing (I don't know this from one line) and say "March of the Wooden Soldiers" (aka "Babes in Toyland" starring L & H).

You SHOULD have recognized that song, if you knew about recent events in my life... Some of you never read my thread in Soap Opera, apparently... Ok, people, FREE POST!

the Karate Kid (the original) Ralph Macchio My Cousin Vinny

"Well, I just heard the news today. It seems my life is going to change. I close my eyes, begin to pray Then tears of joy stream down my face" "Well I don't know if I'm ready To be the man I have to be. I'll take a breath, I'll take her by my side. We stand in awe, we've created life." "Welcome to this place, I'll show you everything." "Now everything has changed. I'll show you love, I'll show you everything." "If I had just one wish, Only one demand, I hope he's not like me- I hope he understands That he can take this life And hold it by the hand And he can greet the world..."

"Well I don't know if I'm ready To be the man I have to be. I'll take a breath, I'll take her by my side. We stand in awe, we've created life" "If I had just one wish, Only one demand, I hope he's not like me- I hope he understands That he can take this life And hold it by the hand And he can greet the world..."

"If I had just one wish, Only one demand, I hope he's not like me- I hope he understands That he can take this life And hold it by the hand And he can greet the world..."

I think twi should pay us a maintenance fee. Since their website is as interesting as dry toast, and as informative as a bubble-gum wrapper, nobody ever visits it- even current twi members and staff do not visit it. So, the only way they get information and updates on their own website is by visiting the far more interesting GSC- which is to say, US. So, since we provide them with a valuable service, they should pay us. It's the American way!

Your guess is correct! The 2nd movie began with a new baby joining the family-"Pubert." Your turn!

"The Ballad of Rocky Raccoon," the Lads from Liverpool.