WordWolf

"Hola." "I no f*** around, comprende? Gun, gun, loaded. Bang, bang. You dead." "Do you have a speech impediment?" "You're missing the grand design here! If I don't go, I'm dead! Yeah. And it's a little hard to carry on a relationship when I'm stuffed with straw and formaldehyde." "I need a lift in your el truck-o to the next town-o!" "All right. Jerry, I want you to acknowledge that my needs means nothing to you and you're a selfish prick and a liar. "Oh, my God!" "Jerry, acknowledge." "I... Ok. I will acknowledge that I promised to go to Vegas with you. But now we're just slightly delayed. If you want to construe my wanting to stay alive as being selfish, well, then okay. But I have every intention of going with you because your needs are very important to me, sweetheart." "Raoul!" "I know we're all a little grouchy right now. We'll get something to eat, you'll get the pistol and then we'll go our separate ways." "I am a hostage? This is so Jerry."

Posting at this hour? I must have "Too Much Time On My Hands", like the song by the great band, STYX.

"Hola." "I no f*** around, comprende? Gun, gun, loaded. Bang, bang. You dead." "Do you have a speech impediment?" "You're missing the grand design here! If I don't go, I'm dead! Yeah. And it's a little hard to carry on a relationship when I'm stuffed with straw and formaldehyde." "I need a lift in your el truck-o to the next town-o!" "All right. Jerry, I want you to acknowledge that my needs means nothing to you and you're a selfish prick and a liar. "Oh, my God!" "Jerry, acknowledge." "I... Ok. I will acknowledge that I promised to go to Vegas with you. But now we're just slightly delayed. If you want to construe my wanting to stay alive as being selfish, well, then okay. But I have every intention of going with you because your needs are very important to me, sweetheart."

I'm waiting a few hours to see if anyone else takes it. I like to give a fair chance rather than leap on it.

It's also interesting to note how that story CHANGED. The first time I got revelation was FAR less dramatic, and I can recall what happened, what I did right, and what I did wrong, in excruciating detail. (I can prove it, too. I have an eyewitness who got all the details he didn't see a relatively short time after- and he can probably retell it nearly identically to how I'd tell it. That must have been over 20 years ago. So, MY significant incidents, I remember those clearly and they stay the same over the DECADES. vpw supposedly has a much rarer incident with God, but can't seem to keep the details straight. First he tells of hearing from God. Then his re-tellings include the snow. Then the snow changes- the earliest accounts match the one in Mrs w's book, and say the sky was BLACK with snow. The accounts after that, and BARELY so, perhaps 2 years later- suddenly have the sky WHITE with snow. It's almost as if vpw kept trying to fine-tune his story, looking for the most interesting things to add to it, and to correct obvious factual inaccuracies like a whiteout blizzard looking black instead of the white of a whiteout. (Thus the term "whiteout.") Of course, some people not only refuse to consider the possibility that vpw lied about all that, but get offended that others even THINK about it and post vpw's own contradictory testimony, to the point they verbally attack those who do so and insult them, slapping labels on Christian posters like "the devil."

*checks his watch*

I'm neither, as such. I don't go around saying "Oh, Hackman's in this? Then let's see it." I mean, I'm fine if he's IN the movie, but he's not my determinant or anything. Ok, next movie. "Hola." "I no f*** around, comprende? Gun, gun, loaded. Bang, bang. You dead." "Do you have a speech impediment?" "You're missing the grand design here! If I don't go, I'm dead! Yeah. And it's a little hard to carry on a relationship when I'm stuffed with straw and formaldehyde."

Let's see. Based on all that, and not "Hunt for Red October." (And not "Yellow Submarine".) *thinks* I think the other submarine film was "Crimson Tide." I know that was the name OF a film.

I'll clarify the point I was making before. I thought people would understand it from the context. It is obvious that we have 2 possibilities: A) vpw lied completely about the Tulsa incident as regards to all the SUPERNATURAL claims he made- that is, the blizzard that shut down the city, which has been proven to have been false, and then the claim that Stiles specifically attended the event because God told Stiles (we only heard this from vpw, of course, and not Stiles) to show up to minister the spirit "to one man", with vpw insinuating that was him, and then compounding that lie when caught by saying angels must have shown up at all 4 phone calls, answered the phones, and lied to vpw all 4 times to keep him in town. B) vpw told the absolute truth all the time concerning that incident. Despite him having been proven to be a liar at other times as well, he told the absolute truth that angels zipped around the various transit agencies of Tulsa, answered the phones, and lied to vpw, and God or an angel told Stiles to go to the Tulsa meeting specifically to minister "to one man." As I see it, there's no third possibility concerning whether there was a blizzard. vpw originally claimed there was one, but weather reports and Mrs w contradict this, making it impossible. When vpw found out the weather reports contradicted him, he didn't react like someone who was stuck in a city due to a blizzard (I was there, the airport was shut down, recheck your dates and your city) but instead switched to "Ok, there WAS no blizzard or any snow, and I must have had angels lie to me on the phone each time I called someone." vpw never addressed how he could be convinced there was a BLIZZARD on the same day the weather hit 60 degrees Fahrenheit, and there was not a flake of snow on the ground or in the sky. If asked, he most likely would have added to his story again and said angels must have flown around, made illusions of snow in the ground and on the sky, and convinced vpw that the temperature was actually about 40-50 degrees colder than it actually was. (For those wondering, that's about the difference between "I can't wear a jacket since it's too hot" to "I need a coat and it's cold enough to begin snowing.") Having said all this, it's predictable, although no less tragic, that there are people who will read that and say "Yes, vpw told the truth. Angels flew around doing that while vpw was being ministered to by Stiles who was in town because God specifically sent him to minister to vpw, who taught God's Word like it hasn't been known since the 1st century." It's a free country. vpw himself had said that if a man wants to be stupid, he can stay stupid. This, apparently, has been embraced by adherents to wierwillism.

Nuts. I could have gotten the ZZ Top one from the 2nd quote. I'm so used to never getting these, I just didn't check in.

It is. The first exchange was at the costume party, when Daniel was dressed as a shower. (Points for originality. However, how can Daniel NOT attend a COSTUME party and manage to be in disguise and inconspicuous?) The second is EXACTLY what you remembered. I could identify the movie from the exchange "What, his hand on her @$$?" "No- her left hook" pretty easily, myself. Go, George.

We're talking about a DIFFERENT lie, about a DIFFERENT snowstorm. (You're free to call bull-muffins on either or both lies, of course.) Johniam is conveniently forgetting everything vpw himself said on the second bogus snowstorm in an attempt to say vpw was not PROVEN to have lied about it. ========================== The Way:Living in Love, pg-197 "The day after Rufus Mosley said those words to me, a piece of mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in Pentecostalism-Oral Roberts. By then, I'd had it. I wasn't even going to go. I don't know what made me change my mind exactly. But I said to Father, I'd go, but it would be the last time; and if I did not receive, I'd leave. I said: there most be something wrong. I was sick and tired of looking, but I made up my mind I'd go this one last time. That was the winter of 1951." TW:LiL, pg-198 "So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time.' " TW:LiL, pg-199 "The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?' I said, 'Yes, but it was a damn lie.' Then he said he knew I was dam*ed because I cussed. That ended our conversation. Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9am.' I thought, 'Women never tell the truth.' But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her. I got to the place she said at 9am, and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He'd com in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go in to the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch. So that's what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, 'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.' I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk- we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I picked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said, 'That's none of your business.' That was it, and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her." ============================= So, vpw's account of that day is pretty specific. A) Call the airport, and discover all planes are grounded due to a blizzard. B) Call the train station, and discover all trains are stopped due to a blizzard. C) Call the bus depot, and discover all the trains are stopped due to a blizzard. D) Call the airport a second time, and discover this is the FIRST time a blizzard has closed down the airport. The Full Gospel Rally actually happened in Tulsa. This is something that can be checked. So, someone in twi checked, looking to get details of this. They found that all the evidence said that there was no blizzard, no snowstorm, no SNOW in Tulsa for that date. Now for the results of someone else looking into that very thing... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_itulsasnow.htm -------------------------------------- "...there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded. So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-- they were all snowed in. The buses-- same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!" (E Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 198) "However, the Tulsa tribune (shown here) notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees, and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in Climatological Data for Oklahoma show only 5/10 inch of snow on Dec. 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec. 20. Neither date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop all buses and trains. Ways Corps graduate Barrie Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by The Voice of Healing magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973). Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do not record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called the airport, train station and bus station (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for lying to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!). It seems amazing that Hill had concrete evidence that VP lied, but still fawned over him in the Oct-Nov 1982 Heart magazine article she wrote about the incident. Wierwille's wife Dorothea recalled that week in a 1996 book of her memories of the Wierwilles' early years called Born Again to Serve. She also was in Tulsa that week and contradicts V.P. Wierwille. She never even implies that the planes, trains and buses were snowbound by a blizzard. The closest thing is when she suggests that there was snow in Chicago (700 miles from Tulsa and hundreds from New Knoxville!) and "sleet forecast in Tulsa by Thursday." (Born Again to Serve, p. 79) This means that there was never any snow on the ground or in the air when the Wierwilles were in Tulsa. Perhaps she couldn't bring herself to make a bald-faced lie as V.P. did. By this, she perhaps implies that V. P. Was lying about the alleged blizzard. " ------------------------------------------------------------ Sounds pretty darn conclusive. Even MRS W doesn't try to confirm there was a blizzard, or anything to confirm a claim that the entire city was snowed in and all trains, planes and buses were halted. However, that's SPECIFICALLY what vpw said, and he said he made at least FOUR different phone-calls to confirm that. (2 to the airport, 1 to the train station, 1 to the bus depot means a minimum of 4 calls mentioned, with the possibility of more calls to any location, but he specified those 4 himself.) How does Johniam attempt to exonerate vpw for vpw's BLATANT lie? Johniam said "All we really know is that VP, distraught, said he heard a voice on the other end of the phone speak of a blizzard. There was no actual blizzard. The result was that VP stayed there longer and this allowed him to be led into tongues. Would an angel lie?" So, we have vpw clearly lying- the entire Tulsa blizzard snow-job. Then we have vpw clearly lying again- covering up the Tulsa blizzard snow-job by claiming angels LIED to him. (Doesn't ever claim he's correct and the other person is MISTAKEN, he jumps directly to agreeing with the person the facts are that there was no snow, but now he was LIED TO and told there WAS snow by angels on 4 different occasions, at 4 different locations. So, there's 2 possibilities here. 1) vpw lied, and the entire Tulsa story, from arrival through exit, including the snow and the incidents involving speaking in tongues, was all one big lie. 2) vpw-who has been proven to have lied on other occasions to us- was telling the complete truth, and a bunch of angels went around lying to him. If there's any of you that even seriously consider the second possibility to even POSSIBLY be correct, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you, and I'm glad I'm not you.

One thing I noticed is that vpw had a tendency to INSINUATE when he wanted to be VAGUE about a lie. He made statements that were phrased in such a way that the normal listener would be led to think he said one SPECIFIC thing when he actually said a different VAGUE thing. For those of you unfamiliar with this, here's an example I read once, unrelated to twi. A person studies martial arts. He spends a month training in the same dojo where Chuck Norris works out and teaches. He then leaves that dojo and gets a Black Belt from a dojo that's kinda flaky and not disciplined. He later tells people: "I have a Black Belt. I trained with Chuck Norris." What did he ACTUALLY say? He made 2 unconnected statements of 2 different facts. What is he LEADING THE LISTENERS to think? He implied that his Black Belt was from Chuck Norris' dojo. If you read the inside of the jacket of any twi book, you'll see that they mention vpw received his Masters from Princeton Theological Seminary. "He later went on to earn his doctorate." No mention of a different school. What did it ACTUALLY say? It makes 2 unconnected statements of 2 different facts. What does it LEAD THE READERS to think? It implies he completed his doctorate ALSO at Princeton Theological Seminary. A similar thing happened whenever lcm said that vpw got a "Masters Degree from Princeton." Since there's 2 Princetons- the famous Princeton University is one commonly known, the Princeton Theological Seminary (a respected seminary which is unconnected to the University in any scholastic way but is near in location) is known only in ecclesiastical circles. So, the average listener is led to think vpw went to Princeton University, and got a Masters from there. vpw did the same tning with his intentionally-ambiguous claims concerning athletics. He said he "played basketball" all through college, and was associated with the Sheboygan Redskins Basketball NBL team. What did honest people conclude? They thought he was on his college's Varsity Basketball team and that he earned his Varsity letter on it, and then he went on to become a member of the Sheboygan Redskins. What was the reality? He was on NEITHER team, and if confronted on it, he TECHNICALLY could have claimed he never actually SAID he was. However, he intentionally misled everyone by implying he did, and phrasing things deliberately to suggest he did. Those are, of course, independent of the actual lies he DID tell, like lying about Lininger's credentials and so many other things.

That's what I was going for. Apparently, I didn't think the clue through enough, since it COULD have referred to some of the other guesses. This really is not my thread. Ok, Raf, take it away.

"I don't know what she sees in him." "She must be into fungus." "What makes you so sensitive? She's never been anything but nice to you." "Yeah she even used to me to make what's-his-name jealous." "She doesn't even LIKE what's-his-name!" "Yeah I couldn't really tell, by the way their faces we're stuck together at that country club." "Oh, that's right. You didn't stick around for the um... exciting conclusion." "Oh what was that- his hand on her @$$?" "Her right hook, you think she sprained her wrists doing her nails?" "She hit him?" "An understatement."

No. Although now it's been mentioned, I suppose "Over The Hedge" might be considered a correct answer. If nobody gets the one I meant, I'll pass it to George.

Never actually saw the movie, so I have no opinion on that. Ok, next movie... Forced to move, they end up trying life in the big city.

*laughs* Damn dirty simians! I think this is "Planet of the Apes." And I actually have one for this thread if I'm right!

Ok, now that we have properly separated quotes we can read, I'll answer. This one's "Yellow Submarine." Those were quotes regarding the Sea of Time.

Well, ok, there WERE those people, too. For the most part, vpw isolated his lies from the GENERAL public. The people who heard his lies were generally already in twi at least a few years, and less likely to even CONSIDER he was lying. However, some DID catch him. In TW:LiL, we see him documented telling the lie about the Tulsa blizzard that never happened. When a twi researcher went to document the blizzard, they discovered the only "evidence" of one was vpw saying so. When that was brought to his attention, he didn't say "check again, I was there, there was a blizzard, look harder at the weather reports, check your dates", etc. IMMEDIATELY, he jumped to "Well, angels must have been telling me there was one, so I thought there was one because I had angels lying to me." Might as well ask why no one confronted him on that. They did, he just made up a bigger lie to cover the first one. That's vpw's criminal MO. When caught, make up a bigger lie. That's why he molested and raped women and spread the big lie that God was ok with it, and actually WANTED it.

*laughs* We've/you've been at this since the 1990s, and NOW you're finally looking at the issue "Was vpw a doctor or not?" At this rate, an honest look at the Doctrinal problems won't be approached until after you're in your 90s. Ok, let's answer this, since you asked. 1) He wasn't a REAL doctor. He had a "doctorate" from an unaccredited institution. It has all the authority of MY "doctorates". (I asked for mine specifically because of this issue.) Since I have 3 "doctorates" from unaccredited institutions, I, apparently, am triple the "doctor" that vpw is- but not ONCE have you ever addressed ME as "Doctor WordWolf" despite that. However, like REAL PhD holders, I usually just use my name and not any title, even when checking into hotels or signing my name or being introduced as a guest speaker. If you consider vpw "a real doctor", then in fairness, you have to consider EVERYONE who has an unaccredited PhD to be every bit the "doctor" he was. Frankly, the people who put in the time at the ACCREDITED institutions (we have a few posting here NOW at the GSC, for example) are much MORE Drs than us fakes. You may note that they don't insist on being called "Dr" either. 2) "He had tons of enemies when he was alive." According to vpw, he needed armed bodyguards around him because there were people who were trying to kill him. As early as TW:LiL (and IN that book), he said they'd tried to kill him TWICE- then immediately changed the subject and refused to provide even the slightest details. After a conversational bombshell like that, the most obvious reason to change the subject is if you're lying through your teeth. ANYONE would want to know more once that was said. When he was alive, most people had never HEARD of him. twi'ers had heard of him, as had ex-twi'ers. Most of the people who opposed him fell into a few categories. A) Ex-twi'ers who wanted to get on with their lives. They mostly tried to ignore him. B) Family members and loved ones of the women he molested and/or raped. Those that existed, he did his best to subvert by making the women out to be liars and destroy their selves so they were shattered wrecks who were in no condition to TELL their loved ones. He succeeded very well in that endeavor most vile. C) Christians with contrary doctrine. Most Christians had never HEARD of him. When a Christian DID hear of him, what they heard was there was this crackpot who teaches against the Trinity and against soul-sleep, but isn't a Jehovah's Witness. They all focused entirely on that. The flatly ridiculous claims were never looked at. They were looking at a man teaching doctrine they didn't like, so the addressed the DOCTRINE. Lacking the internet, few even THOUGHT to question his credentials. If he claimed to be a "doctor", some school presumably gave him a PhD, which was a lesser matter to them. For that matter, with internet access, it's not hard to expose his imaginary snowstorm in Tulsa as a complete fabrication. However, most people thought of him as a doctrinal heretic, and approached him accordingly. If they'd known he was an ecclesiastical fraud, they would have approached him differently. D) Deprogrammers. They just wanted cash, and focused on his doctrine also. So, that's why they "didn't use that more." twi, as an organization, operated fairly underground, off the radar. twi's books never appeared in libraries- unless a twi'er donated any. Christian bookstores were never given the chance to CARRY twi books even if they wanted to. "I really don't care what might have been at stake that he was or wasn't a doctor." I call "shenanigans" on that. You still CALL him "Doctor", even though his only "doctorate" was granted by an organization with no more authority to grant a "doctorate" than YOUR LOCAL SUPERMARKET. And real "doctors" rarely insist on their title, unlike the FAKE who insisted on it all the time- while denigrating the educational institutions that grant degrees in Religious Studies. The net result is that he's granted a title he didn't earn and given the appearance of an authority figure- and all people who actually EARNED one don't count. I mean, DON earned a real PhD from an ACCREDITED institution. However, whenever he heard "Doctor Wierwille" said around him, it was NEVER about HIM and ALWAYS about the man who never EARNED the real thing. vpw was exposed as a fraud over a decade ago, in front of you at the GSC, and you STILL call him "Doctor." You darn well DO care. At least be honest with us even if you're going to lie to yourself. The evidence is conclusive that he was never a REAL "doctor." Anyone who says "he was a real doctor", anyone who says "maybe he was a real doctor, maybe he wasn't", and anyone who says "I don't care if he was a real doctor" who still calls him "Doctor Wierwille" in any context is hiding from the truth, lying to themselves and others, and probably delusional.

Yeah, those 24-hour days would get to me too...can't blame time.

I think the word "pathetic" is a bit overly harsh. I would agree that it's "tragic" or "sad." Then again, we can't affect what reminds you of what, no matter how tragic or sad it is that you're making unconnected connections in your head. Confusing disrespect to a sitting US President-but still being grammatically correct- is nothing like people freaking out because a man with an unaccredited degree isn't addressed by his unofficial degree. It IS grammatically correct to refer to both as "Mister", and is not incorrect. It is NOT required to insist on a title for either, and unaccredited, unofficial titles don't count for most people in just about ANY context. In fact, most LEGITIMATE PhDs are not pedantic about using their titles. In my high school, all or almost all the teachers had PhDs, and only ONE out of the entire SCHOOL went around calling himself "DOCTOR." And I remember another teacher pointedly referring to him as "Mister." (Actually, there WAS a second, but he was retired, worked as a substitute teacher, and seemed a touch senile.)

*thinks* Ok, Jbarrax has it- he said "Death Race", which is the name of the current movie. It was thought of as a sort-of prequel or a sequel to the original Death Race 2000, depending on who you ask. Carradine's voice was used at the beginning of this one for Frankenstein before his fatal crash- which was a reference to the previous flick. So, it's his turn now. (Jbarrax, not Carradine.)

Possibly you guys can put together what you DO know, and maybe someone will get the title. Some of you might have seen it, others might have seen the "original" a few decades before. I mean, any movie with a Carradine in it is hardly THAT obscure...