WordWolf

I see the problem as a worldview difference. There's people who've told themselves the following: "I had good times, learned good Bible, and saw some results in my life as a result of my time in twi. Therefore, I have to buy into everything vpw said no matter how ridiculous, and defend every claim of his no matter how ridiculous, and I am incapable of ever improving my understanding of the Bible, God, Christ, or Christianity because that's not how we did it when I was young and impressionable. Besides, vpw was legitimate because when he was in public, he was a persuasive speaker." They refuse to grow out of their spiritual adolescence. They had some good times, learned some things, and then refuse to grow past them. The conundrum is confusing all the individual things for one indivisible thing, so that ONE thing being true means ALL of them are true no matter how silly.

The REVERENCE of God is FAR more encompassing than the modern word "fear" would limit things. If one is AFRAID of God, if one's understanding begins only with the concept that God's ready to Smite thee as The Almighty Smiter, then, hey, that's an understanding that I find both LIMITING and DiSQUIETING. Am I supposed to serve God out of a sense of a God-Father, who receives my service as a sort of "protection money" so He doesn't cause any "accidents" to happen to me or mine? Am I supposed to serve God out of a sense that He's the Mightiest Mutha in the Universe and anyone else would just get smacked down, so go with the toughest? Sorry, I find that your concept of "fearing" neither matches all the verses nor motivates me to serve Him, Your God sounds more like a bully or an organized crime boss than a Heavenly Father whom I want to make proud of me. Me, I REVERENCE a God who's so awesome I go to my knees in humility to Him-not because He requires it, but because He deserves it and I wish to show Him respect out of my free will. If having a God, and "fearing" Him drops you to your knees before Him, and this brings you "peace and joy", well, I'm happy for you, but that sounds more like STOCKHOLM SYNDROME, or a wife devoted to an abusive husband, or a devotee to twi who is afraid to leave "the household" more than any relationship with any God I'd ever want to serve.

"The issue is not with English it is with the greek!" The issue is not with the Greek, it is with the English. Koine Greek is a dead language, and so the words in Koine Greek don't change in meaning. What changes in meaning is the English it's translated into. English has changed a LOT in 400 years. The Koine Greek word has remained the same, but the English word has become victim to the perfectly normal, everyday process of "the specialization of language." Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language. That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage" but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".) There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy. Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that.] www.quora.com/John-Bagnall/Word-Definitions/answers How important are word definitions to the process of communication? John Bagnall, Wordsmith Ultimately, clear definitions (that are understood and agreed upon by all parties) are essential to successful communication. If I use words believing them to mean one thing, but you understand them to mean another, we have a recipe for confusion. At best, our misunderstanding may simply cause some brief and harmless embarrassment that can be quickly resolved. At worst, there is the potential for deep and lasting damage. This is all the more so for the fact that what words mean and what the user means when he or she uses them may also be at odds. In 1953, 19-year-old Derek Bentley was executed in Wandsworth Prison, London for his part in the murder of a policeman. Bentley had shouted to his co-defendent, who was carrying a gun, ''Let him have it!'' The case hung on whether Bentley was instructing his younger accomplice to hand over the pistol or to fire it; the court decided it was the latter. www.quora.com/What-are-the-words-that-have-been-so-abused-in-their-use-that-their-original-meaning-is-gone What are the words that have been so abused in their use that their original meaning is gone? In other words, what are some good examples of words definitions gone crazy? John Bagnall, Wordsmith It's a moot point whether the shift in meaning of a word over time is the result of abuse per se as opposed to an entirely natural process of gradual evolution (known as language drift). Examples of usages that have changed over different periods of time (and as the result of different influences and circumstances) include: Decimate vb now means: destroy all, devastate did mean: kill/destroy one tenth Gay adj (also now n) now means: a sexual orientation did mean: happy, free of care Quantum adj now means: big did mean: small Awesome adj now means: stunning, wonderful, great did mean: frightening, dreadful, weird Aggravate vb now means: annoy, make worse did mean: burden, weigh down Counterfeit n now means: cheap, shoddy copy did mean: perfect copy Hopefully adv now means: with luck, it is to be hoped that did mean: in a hopeful manner Fortuitous adj now means: lucky, fortunate did mean: by chance, accidental Radical adj now means: extreme, controversial did mean: basic, fundamental Want vb now means: desire did mean: lack finally: Defecate vb did mean: purify, cleanse now means: well, you decide.... =================================== Ok, the concept I was referring to is more often called LANGUAGE DRIFT. But you can see it happens all the time, as long as a language is spoken-a "living" language. A "dead" language doesn't change. "The word φοβος is the greek word for fear at least thats what they teach you when learning greek. Granted when you look up the word it says respect although not used in scripture because I don't see the context in many of the passages as respect..." The Greek word "phobos" isn't the issue-that's stayed the same. It's been translated into English as "fear" for many centuries-and THAT's the issue. "Phobos" always meant one thing-but "fear" has DRIFTED over at least the last 400 years. The more generalized, previous meaning was a great emotion. That applied whether the emotion was NEGATIVE (fear, anxiety) or POSITIVE (awe, reverence). Many passages in Scripture, it MIGHT be translated either way and an argument-whether valid or not-can be made for either. So, let's not waste our time on pages of what would amount to a shrugged shoulder. The passages where it could not sensibly be a NEGATIVE emotion, but an AWE and REVERENCE, are up for discussion. If they don't exist, than there's insufficient proof to support a claim that the language drift has changed the meaning, and we can try to claim it's all the CURRENT meaning of "fear" and discuss why. Since they DO exist, the existence of at least a DIFFERENT, POSITIVE meaning in effect in 1611 is demonstrated, and this whole "fear has always only meant one thing" position has been successfully DISPROVEN. (You still are free to hold a disproven, refuted belief, however- there are still Flat Earthers and people who think vpw really heard from God in 1942.) Acts 2:42-43 King James Version (KJV) 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Luke 7:15-16 King James Version (KJV) 15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 1:64-65 King James Version (KJV) 64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God. 65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea. Matthew 28:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Myself, I'm waiting for a good explanation as to exactly how one can have "fear and great joy" at the same time- if the MODERN MEANING of the word "fear" is meant. You CAN'T feel GREAT JOY while experiencing fears. If a person has a phobia of something, and is experiencing great joy, and you introduce the object of the phobia, then the person will STOP feeling great joy and REPLACE that feeling with FEAR. If one takes into account that "fear" in 1611 meant something it no longer means in 2011, then it makes sense. ========================== Now, you've admitted that the dictionaries have a definition of "reverence" in them, but claim surprise they do. Should have read my post in its entirety before announcing it was incorrect. I posted the examples at least once already. Ephesians 5:21 King James Version (KJV) 21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Ephesians 5:21 New International Version (NIV) 21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 2 Corinthians 7:1 King James Version (KJV) 2 Corinthians 7 1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 New International Version (NIV) 2 Corinthians 7 1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. Romans 3:18 King James Version (KJV) 18There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:18 Good News Translation (GNT) 18 nor have they learned reverence for God. =============================== Now, if you want to dismiss the work of the committees that completed those Bible versions, that's your privilege. Obviously, they saw something you did not. So, the dictionaries saw something, you don't see why. The translation committees of at least 2 popular Bible versions saw something, but you don't. Rather than take me to task for seeing it and not just saying "phobos has always meant exactly one thing", might all of us have a point?] "There are words for respect in the greek like απονεμω meaning to cause respect to treat with respect (with respect, as desvered) Str 642. 1791. ἐντροπή entropē; from 1788; respect, shame:—shame(2). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. Here are some words for REVERENCE δέος deos; from δείδω deidō (to fear); fear, reverence:—awe(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. εὐλαβέομαι eulabeomai; from 2126; to be cautious:—reverence(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. εὐλάβεια eulabeia; from 2126; caution:—piety(1), reverence(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. 2152. εὐσεβής ĕusĕbēs, yoo-seb-ace´; from 2095 and 4576; well-reverent, i.e. pious:—devout, godly. . A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. 2318. θεοσεβής thĕŏsĕbēs, theh-os-eb-ace´; from 2316 and 4576; reverent of God, i.e. pious:—worshipper of God. Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. 5091. τιμάω timaō, tim-ah´-o; from 5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by impl. to revere:—honour, value. Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. [As you yourself have just shown, there's more than one word in the Greek that mean similar things or almost-identical things in English-at least English as we practice it now. For that matter, "krima" and "krisis" are effectively interchangeable in Bible meaning, and both are used in the New Testament. You just made my point FOR me while saying it's invalid.] "It seems to me that if God wanted it to be something other than fear he could of found a less confusing word." [Frankly, I would have liked that as well, but if He has a certain word used, then that is the word He used. Either we accept that and try to understand it, or we toss away the Bible and say it's a book of man, or we take God to task for not trying hard enough.] "Unless it isn't confusing and when it says fear it says and I am sorry for the pun... "Says what it means".... If only VPW took his own advice." [i REposted a few examples where "fear" (as written) doesn't mean "fear" (as understood by you). It said what it meant, but you missed what it meant. I can keep reposting them in the hopes you'll read them eventually, if you like, or maybe spend some more time and find some more. At present, I see no use in adding more time if you haven't read what I posted so far.] "When Jesus said "fear the one who has the power to throw you into hell and destroy it" He dosen't stop there. Jesus reiterates the point "Yes fear Him"... This isn't some respect or awe. None of the other words really even make sense in that story. As I illuded above with the word φοβος Jesus is saying it literally fear God... Another thing to look at are peoples reactions to God or the glorified Jesus. I can't think of anyone who didn't tremble before them... John for example fell down as if dead... This is the one whom Jesus Loved. Jesus said do not be afraid. It wouldn't make since to say "Do not respect".. Johns natural reaction like everyone else in the bible was to fall down in fear of God. Why do I think I am going to act any different than the apostle John post pentecost? It just seems arrogant to assume anything other than that. [When the word "phobos" means a strong emotional response, it CAN mean "AWE AND REVERENCE" or it CAN mean "fear, anxiety, shock". It's wrong for you to MIStranslate the verses that clearly mean "awe" into "anxiety"- which you did- and it's wrong for you to MIStranslate the verses that probably mean "anxiety" into "respect"- as you're CLAIMING I would. The word "phobos" had/has a more GENERAL meaning and meant the deep emotional reaction. That's why some verses are CORRECTLY rendered as "reverence" and some OTHER verses are CORRECTLY rendered as "fear" (as we currently mean the word.) By limiting "phobos" to EITHER meaning, you're making a mistake and doing a disservice to God's Word. I expect better of you than that.]

Since this is completely off-topic, I started a new thread in Doctrinal, "Fear of God." www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/22770-fear-of-god/

We were (most of us) exposed to some error-ridden doctrine in twi about what the Bible actually says, and what it SUPPOSEDLY says, and what it means. One of the many topics was our attitude towards God, and what it should and should not be like. This is on my mind now, so I'm starting a topic on it. Let's get clear on our terms. By modern usage, "fear" is an emotion which is a negative response- we "fear" something because we "fear" some negative consequence (whether by legal punishment, violence by human, animal, nature, etc) and have an emotional reaction to the possible presence of that which we "fear". dictionary.reference.com/browse/fear 1. a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid. Synonyms: foreboding, apprehension, consternation, dismay, dread, terror, fright, panic, horror, trepidation, qualm. Antonyms: courage, security, calm, intrepidity. 2. a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights. Synonyms: phobia, aversion; bête noire, bogy, bogey, bugbear. Antonyms: liking, fondness, penchant, predilection. 3. concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone's safety. 5. something that causes feelings of dread or apprehension; something a person is afraid of: Cancer is a common fear. ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=fear [The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language] n. 1. a. A very unpleasant or disturbing feeling caused by the presence or imminence of danger: Our fears intensified as the storm approached. b. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in constant fear of attack; saved as much as he could for fear of losing his job. 2. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish. 3. A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear. ============================================= ======================================== Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language. That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage" but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".) There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy. Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that. (For that matter, words CHANGE in meaning, too. The KJV uses "prevent" in I Thessalonians where "precede" is the modern translation of the Greek word, and the word "gay" has moved around a LOT in the 20th century. For that matter, if you're in 2 different countries, the English word "fag" can have VERY different meanings, and the word "faggot" used to be a pile of wood. I saw an online signature calling someone a "gay fag", then pointing out they just called them a "happy cigarette.") The phrase "fear of God" is often rendered "REVERENCE" in modern versions. I think the word "AWE" might be better. The word "FEAR" meant a STRONG EMOTION without specifying it was NEGATIVE-but it was STRONG. This makes sense to me. Look- as a parent, you want your child to have a deep RESPECT for you, and take you very, very seriously. This means they'd want to PLEASE you, and feel bad when they knew that you'd told them to do something, they did the opposite, and they suffered some consequence. (They took the car out when you said they weren't ready and damaged the car, they drank underage and now are feeling like a knife is cutting through their brain.) Some people really hang on the words of some celebrity or other notable, and will freak out if they disagree. They'll immediately run to do something to conform to that person's specifications- get a haircut, change their wardrobe, whatever. They really respect that celebrity, and hold them in awe. Heck, in twi we knew people who ran out and conformed all the time- -mogs have suits? Lose the jeans and get a suit -mogs have little briefcases? I'm off to the briefcase store -lcm tries to grow a little moustache? I'm developing a little coffee stain under my nose lcm and vpw took the place of awe, respect and reverence that God Almighty was supposed to get all along. Cower in fear of God? No, I reverence God and am in awe of Him. When I do wrong, I feel bad about displeasing Him and hope to do better. But I don't expect him over my shoulder, the Almighty Smiter preparing to Smite me for it. I'll smite myself with the consequences I worked hard to earn. =========================================== Does God Almighty recommend "fear"-the MODERN MEANING of the term, as a default position for the Christian? If so, it should be reflected in Scripture. Now, then, a number of usages of "fear" or "fear of God" in the KJV are AMBIGUOUS- they MIGHT mean a "fear" in the modern sense, or a deep REVERENCE. Are there any usages which reflect a meaning which is UNambiguous, where the modern "fear" would make no sense? Yes. Acts 2:42-43 King James Version (KJV) 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Luke 7:15-16 King James Version (KJV) 15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 1:64-65 King James Version (KJV) 64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God. 65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea. Matthew 28:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. ====================================== Myself, I'm waiting for a good explanation as to exactly how one can have "fear and great joy" at the same time- if the MODERN MEANING of the word "fear" is meant. You CAN'T feel GREAT JOY while experiencing fears. If a person has a phobia of something, and is experiencing great joy, and you introduce the object of the phobia, then the person will STOP feeling great joy and REPLACE that feeling with FEAR. If one takes into account that "fear" in 1611 meant something it no longer means in 2011, then it makes sense. Another thing vpw mangled was actually UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S WRITTEN by insisting on a book whose origins were in 1611- the King James Version- and not putting in the time to account for 400 years of definitions CHANGING, let alone new research coming to light, correcting bad translations entirely. One word was "fill" and MIStranslated "REPLENISH", and vpw makes a doctrine based on the KJV's 1611 rendering, without checking the Hebrew it was translated from. Another was "prevent"- but we actually did the research and understood that it would NOW read "preceed". Proverbs warns one not to "decline" to an evildoer's ways- odd advice to give if one wants to AVOID them- if "decline" meant now what it meant in 1611, and wasn't the opposite of an INCLINE. (i.e. Don't lower yourself to the level of that evil.) We likewise should not shackle ourselves to a KJV rendering of things. Other versions have taken these things into account, and "fear" sometimes is not translated as "fear" now. ============================== Ephesians 5:21 King James Version (KJV) 21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Ephesians 5:21 New International Version (NIV) 21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 2 Corinthians 7:1 King James Version (KJV) 2 Corinthians 7 1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 New International Version (NIV) 2 Corinthians 7 1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. Romans 3:18 King James Version (KJV) 18There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:18 Good News Translation (GNT) 18 nor have they learned reverence for God. ================================================= As for the idea that RESPECTING God will mean you can sin, then whoever is saying that really doesn't understand RESPECT at all. If someone you RESPECT tells you how to act, you don't give their instructions all the regard a dog gives a fire hydrant- you carry them out because you respect them. God is so much greater and deserves a far deeper RESPECT than that- although even that is alien to a twi experience. =========================== BTW, just as some Bibles distinguish between "REVERENCE" and what the KJV called "fear" back in 1611, and some Christians do, some dictionaries will note the exception among the meanings of the word "fear". The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=fear 4. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a deity. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fear 3 : to have a reverential awe of <fear God> dictionary.reference.com/browse/fear 4. reverential awe, especially toward God: the fear of God. Synonyms: awe, respect, reverence, veneration.

Wierwille wouldn't recognize RESPECT of God if it came up to him and displayed a Driver's License. As he did with so many other things, vpw gave lip service to respecting God, and understood NOTHING about the utter AWESOMENESS of God, the Godness of God Almighty. He could PRETEND to and give a neat speech, but the words without the soul-deep understanding of the concept was EMPTY. Compare that to thoughts like, say, George Mueller, who claimed to have read the entire Bible many times, half of them on his knees. If I go to my knees and kneel in prayer, it is neither because I am following tradition, nor because I'm afraid of what He will do to me if I do not. Rather, it is me showing humility (privately) before God Almighty, and coming to Him with an attitude of being unworthy of His Grace and Awesomeness, but coming to Him anyway. As for "fearing" vpw or any man, that was unhealthy. It's been said that of any group of people, some will only do what is right because they fear punishment for doing wrong- only penalties of law COMPEL them to follow the law. Others will do what is right because it is right and not because someone has to compel them- some needing an occasional reminder, others needing none at all. I suppose, if someone is incapable of serving God and coming to Him in humility and awe, then a reminder that disobedience can lead to severe consequences may be of some use. However, I wouldn't want to work alongside any "Christian" who had to be dragged by the scruff of the neck to do what is right. Using vpw's explanation of respecting God is as damaging as using vpw's explanation of the fear of God, and neither is going to actually HELP a Christian if applied.

Sounds like we're agreeing on this much, if not more. Obedience to God, who is Awesome, and whose attributes are all Awesome. Awe and reverence-"fear of God"-bowing one's head while on bended knee before a God who didn't REQUIRE it but deserves so much more, and who doesn't motivate me to the MODERN meaning of the word "fear". He is worthy of obedience and the proper response when DISobedient to Him is embarrassment, shame, and humility, with a desire to do better next time because He deserved better THIS time and I didn't do it.

Acts 2:42-43 King James Version (KJV) 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Luke 7:15-16 King James Version (KJV) 15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 1:64-65 King James Version (KJV) 64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God. 65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea. Matthew 28:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

I see both sides of the discussion, and I think both are right- to a point. However, I think we're arguing about why this apple doesn't taste orange-y enough. Down the centuries, we've seen what's called the SPECIALIZATION of language. That's why the phrase "meat and drink" in English once meant "food and beverage" but now "meat" only refers to what a carnivore will eat, and "drink" generally means a beverage with alcohol (or we call it a "SOFT drink".) There's lots of words where that's happened. A "facsimile" is an imitation, a copy. Yet, a "copy" now is often thought to be a "photocopy", and a "facsimile copy", or as it's shortened, "FAX", is a photocopy produced through a specific machine that operates as a remote printer. All living languages do that. (For that matter, words CHANGE in meaning, too. The KJV uses "prevent" in I Thessalonians where "precede" is the modern translation of the Greek word, and the word "gay" has moved around a LOT in the 20th century. For that matter, if you're in 2 different countries, the English word "fag" can have VERY different meanings, and the word "faggot" used to be a pile of wood. I saw an online signature calling someone a "gay fag", then pointing out they just called them a "happy cigarette.") The phrase "fear of God" is often rendered "REVERENCE" in modern versions. I think the word "AWE" might be better. The word "FEAR" meant a STRONG EMOTION without specifying it was NEGATIVE-but it was STRONG. This makes sense to me. Look- as a parent, you want your child to have a deep RESPECT for you, and take you very, very seriously. This means they'd want to PLEASE you, and feel bad when they knew that you'd told them to do something, they did the opposite, and they suffered some consequence. (They took the car out when you said they weren't ready and damaged the car, they drank underage and now are feeling like a knife is cutting through their brain.) Some people really hang on the words of some celebrity or other notable, and will freak out if they disagree. They'll immediately run to do something to conform to that person's specifications- get a haircut, change their wardrobe, whatever. They really respect that celebrity, and hold them in awe. Heck, in twi we knew people who ran out and conformed all the time- -mogs have suits? Lose the jeans and get a suit -mogs have little briefcases? I'm off to the briefcase store -lcm tries to grow a little moustache? I'm developing a little coffee stain under my nose lcm and vpw took the place of awe, respect and reverence that God Almighty was supposed to get all along. Cower in fear of God? No, I reverence God and am in awe of Him. When I do wrong, I feel bad about displeasing Him and hope to do better. But I don't expect him over my shoulder, the Almighty Smiter preparing to Smite me for it. I'll smite myself with the consequences I worked hard to earn.

Different people had different experiences in twi. Some people were destroyed by twi. Some of us benefited quite a bit-while being indoctrinated. NYC'ers in general are slow to bend their necks, so when lcm insisted on loyalty oaths, we didn't take it seriously. Me, I thought the other top twi'ers would help him get a clue and return to balance. A week or so later came the letter from lcm that he'd fired all the leaders I'd come to respect through experience because he said they served their own stomachs and deceived people. As NYC residents go, ONE person I knew in my borough decided to swear to lcm- a man I knew as a spritual lightweight, and less impressive than I already was despite being a lot older and having more time in twi. (Didn't know so much Bible, wasn't an Advanced Class Grad, etc.) a handful in the city stayed with lcm's loyalty oath, and the rest all left together. Although I'd met a number of knuckleheads in my first few years locally at twi, I'd met a number of quality Christians, too. (Occasionally, they were the same people.) When I took "the class", I was a high school student and had to scrape up the class fee. I asked one person to borrow his Bible to take the class. He said it was ok. When I got to the first session, a brand-new Bible was sitting there-a gift from another twi'er who wanted me to do well. A person I knew was balking at any commitment in taking "the class", and claimed (falsely) the reason was they didn't have the money. Someone they just met, whom I barely knew, then immediately offered to cover the class fee for them, no strings attached. (Someone else had already given them a Bible.) I've known twi'ers with compassion who genuinely cared about people, and who really loved God, Jesus and the Bible (as best we understood each.) I've also known prideful sob's who felt it was their duty to lord it over others- and that's at a LOCAL level! I've said it many times and will say it again- I'm glad I got in, and glad I got out. God's far bigger than the little box I had him in, and the Bible is deeper than I was taught and I've learned more useful (and respectful) approaches to reading it. Finally, I can associate with my fellow Christians now even if we don't all mark off the same checklist of beliefs.

I've posted plenty on this thread in 2 pages already that's worth discussing for or against, and the only things you can find worth commenting on are ONE sentence from each of 2 lengths posts, which you use to level an insult. Now I feel sorry for you. I don't know how much of my posts you actually read, but you certainly don't PERCEIVE most of any of them. After months and months of you singling out little sentences and erasing their contexts, I realize that the majority of the post becomes a mental BLUR and it's like reading it as "blah blah blah 'something I can insult' blah blah blah." (I might have noticed it sooner but I have lots of things on my mind.) BTW, one of vpw's trademarks was making a lot of things about HIM and about twi that were completely unrelated. According to him at different times, twi people living in California prevented the San Andreas Fault from having earthquakes, and Oklahoma City from having one, and so on. He supposedly was invited to meet the President when actually he requested an invite to an event where the President appeared, and they never MET but they were in the same reception hall at the same time. Amazing how so many things around the GSC become about you-whether or not someone's mentioning you or even thinking of you. This thread is about a subject that's been on my mind for YEARS. I've noticed you're unable to actually refute any point anyone's raised, and lowered the discussion to "yo momma" instead. The part about radical fundamentalism takes off from discussions I had the other year with someone else not on the GSC, after I read some news about a Muslim country and what people were being talked into. As others have agreed, it's applicable to twi and post-twi experiences as well. By definition, I was thinking of a NUMBER of people, which is obvious to anyone who reads even the TITLE of the thread and understands it, let alone the first post. I addressed hatred of Jews as well as other targets. Were you making anti-Semetic remarks on another thread lately? It wouldn't even matter if I WAS trying to actually "lecture" you, you only cherry-pick out the things you want to insult as it is. I could post something worthy of a Noble Peace Prize and you'd still be objecting to it. I never said I don't "hate"-in fact, I specified I hate child molesters, so, again, your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. So, you subtracted from the word of WordWolf, which means you no longer have the word of WordWolf. As for being "morally superior", I said nothing about that. You added to the word of WordWolf, which means you no longer have the word of WordWolf. You have what vpw (incorrectly) referred to as "private interpretation". So, one sentence, 3 errors (not actually lecturing when posting, moral superiority, not hating.) I never even suggested it was wrong to have ANY hate, but there's SPECIFIC things that vpw adherents all seem to hate in LOCKSTEP HARMONY. A) He doesn't get to redefine words already in usage in the English language, and it's a bit shocking that anyone would take his definitions seriously 25 years after he was dead, and over a decade after he was exposed as a fraud, plagiarist, con man, and man of the flesh rather than a man who walked after the Spirit. B) Supposedly, according to his "definition", any "strong dislike" is a "hate" (thus, missing a bus when you're in a hurry results in "hate") and 1/2 his definition is impossible for anyone in twi to ever feel. That's a pretty disjointed "definition", which makes sense when you realize the man's degree was in HOMILETICS and not ENGLISH or PHILOLOGY or any related subject. He had no business pretending he knew enough to claim a definition of an existing word-and changing it. None of that addresses the screaming he did at people whenever he felt like it. Was that "hate" as well? He also taught twi'ers to hate the things I mentioned in the first post, even if he never sent out a blunt memo saying "Henceforth, thou shalt hate the following groups...." I'm curious if you're even aware that's what this thread is ABOUT. Different radical fundamentalist groups have succeeded at different levels with their adherents. twi'ers are not known for killing sprees-but they have been known for demanding abortions or beating a child to the point he might actually die when what he needed was a medical exam and medication to correct a chemical imbalance. twi'ers have also reduced a Holocaust survivor to tears when they interrupted her INVITED appearance somewhere by screaming at her and calling her a liar. Only one poster's intervention stopped one man from going off with a gun to shoot someone dead because vpw said outright that someone should kill him. twi'ers have also told people that they or their family would drop dead if they left twi. Before you excuse them by saying adults should know better, yes, MOST adults do-but those indoctrinated into twi are trained to believe ridiculous nonsense and go to extremes defending twi. That leaves aside children who were told such things and were in real fear that they would drop dead. So, SOME radical fundamentalist groups have succeeded more than vpw in instilling hatred, ignorance and blanket accusations. Of course, they had a lead of centuries on him. For only having a few decades, he was quite successful. Decades after his death, there's still people who refuse to go beyond what vpw taught them, because he said "You can't go beyond what you've been taught" and they accepted that. Putting yourself in chains and staying in them for decades is not a sensible thing for an adult to do, whether the chains are steel or dogma.

He was the SON of the B in BTO. (Maybe you mistyped and meant exactly that.)

Another quote might be useful. (Or it might not, depending.)

Now, now....he's trying to change the subject and lob in an insult. Without meaning to, however, he's pointed out something we haven't discussed yet. THE CONTRAST. See, at the GSC, a lot of us agree on a number of things, like "it's wrong to drug and rape women" and "it's wrong to plagiarize things and claim you threw away all your books and used only the Bible and a connection with God to write stuff" and "men of God are supposed to conform to an acceptable standard of conduct that matches what the Bible says", things like that. We also disagree about many things-some are not Christians, some are adherents to a specific denomination or a different one, others do not. Why do we agree on a number of things yet disagree on so many others? Well, that's a matter of THINKING. We each use our free will (as I see it) and DECIDE what to think. If a religious leader says "The truth of a matter is A". we think about that. Maybe it's A, maybe it's not-A. Maybe it's B, C or D. Maybe sometimes it's A, and sometimes not-A or B. When it came to twi, we were all told to think in a specific way, and social sanctions (and sometimes other sanctions) were brought to enforce conformity if and when we disagreed. In twi, there's a lot of uniformity of speech and "groupthink." In the GSC, there's a lot of differences of opinion, but despite that, we agree on some things. Why? Because we thought about them and it is sensible to think those things. Examples: 1) It's a good idea to conform to the letter of the law for US citizens right now. 2) It's good to think for yourself. 3) vpw was a man who claimed to have a special connection with God, yet deceived everyone on a grand scale, including HIMSELF. Do we agree on them because we were TOLD? Do we agree on them because of INERTIA? No. we thought for ourselves and came to similar conclusions despite getting there different ways. ========================== So, twi told me who to hate. However, I don't hate who twi told me to hate. Who do I hate now? Well, child molesters and the like, rapists, like that. I dislike the people who deceive others, including themselves. I don't HATE them. If the suggestion is that I "hate" twi, I do not. I dislike the organization, I dislike the cadre running it, and I feel sorry for the people whose bodies and minds are still trapped therein. If the suggestion is that I "hate" vpw, actually, I don't. I have CONTEMPT towards him, and when he was alive, I would have been willing to kill him with my own hands for the monstrous evil he performed on women for whom Christ died. That wouldn't have been out of hate, but out of a sense of "cause and effect". He did actions which deserved a specific response, and should have gotten it. I actually feel sory for lcm, because he once knew better, and vpw destroyed his life and taught him to destroy the lives of others while thinking he was doing God's will. lcm is a prisoner of the "education" he received in twi. He doesn't even know what was wrong or why. If the suggestion is that I "hate" other posters, I dislike when they decide to misuse the quote function to deliberately confuse issues, and I dislike when they try and change the subject when they see an intelligent discussion but don't like the subject matter but lack the evidence or logic to make intelligent points against what they disagree with. I dislike when someone sees an intelligent discussion, and thinks a reaction and a clever comment is somehow worthy of the rest of the discussion. But I don't "hate" them. I FEEL SORRY for the posters when they do that. Those posters are prisoners of twi, victims as much as any woman vpw raped. They are still operating with the same "programs" vpw instilled- -hate anyone who says bad things about vpw, even if they are 100% true -live in ignorance that there's a LOT of things twi and vpw never knew, and make them your STANDARD -make blanket accusations whenever you don't like something rather than try to understand it. So, the suggestion that I'm "hating" something, actually, illustrates what this thread is about, quite nicely. A blanket accusation posted in ignorance, fueled by blind hatred. Frankly, the thread was incomplete without a live example on it. But someone volunteered to enter one. :)

Well, you included the entire title, "She's So High". I usually prefer the artist be included, but I can live without that. The original artist (there were covers) was Tal Bachman. Tal Bachman's dad is Randy Bachman, the Bachman of Bachman Turner Overdrive. I've heard it said (could be a rumor) that Tal got the idea for the song when someone told him about some woman he was scared to approach because she was out of his league. "She's so high above me." (His stepbrother? He supposedly tried to get the hottest girl in his high school to go out with his stepbrother...) Your turn!

As someone who came to classic rock more after much of it came out, I have heard a lot of songs without knowing the albums they came from. (I know them from radio-play or compilation albums OR their original albums.) So, it's not reminding me of anything yet. =============================== In other news, let's try another song. This one is more to the usual tastes on this thread, but is also more recent. (1999.) And has an interesting piece of trivia for classic rockers. "First class and fancy-free, she's high society. She's got the best of everything. What could a guy like me ever really offer her? She's perfect as she can be, why should I even bother?"

Admitting you produced something, then improved it later, is a good thing in most of the world. If you're claiming you're superior and, in effect, your work is perfect because it comes from God Almighty, admitting an improvement is a little like saying "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

That shouldn't surprise me. twi information came from undereducated people with bad sources of information who lacked the skills to tell the difference. When I was in high school, I started learning about "detente"- and how the US and "the Evil Empire" the USSR sometimes work together. (Actually, I brought UP the subject and was taught that word as a result.) lcm, he was at the podium saying how the US should let the USSR starve and not sell them food. On the one hand, it would have been bad for our food sales. On the other, the Bible and lcm made a sharp departure. lcm said to let the USSR starve because he said they were our "enemy". Romans 12:19-21 King James Version (KJV) 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. What happened? The US didn't let the people of the USSR starve. The people eventually lightened up, and a few years after lcm's pronouncement, the Berlin Wall fell and the USSR broke up into its component countries. Our relations with each of them are pretty good, which is a good thing. That made sense according to the Bible and according to diplomacy and politics. It contradicted lcm who had no education in diplomacy and politics, and it seems his education in the Bible was deficient.

I still think that education and a good job insulates against radical fundamentalism like twi. Education means practice with thinking and evaluating, which is something. A good job means someone's invested in their own present and future. They have things they care about, and won't just drop their life because someone else wants them to. Ok, why do I think these were/are targets? 1) The Roman Catholic Church. vpw was against any church structure, but went after the RCC rather vocally. Why? On the one hand, there's doctrines he could attack easily (Mary worship and statues of saints and patron saints are easy targets.) On the other hand, as a man who sometimes lauded his Germanic heritage to the skies, the group Martin Luther objected to in Germany was something to object to as well. On the third hand, vpw was fond of getting some information from esoteric sources, even if those sources wore tinfoil hats to block the CIA scanners. He taught lcm to use them too- and lcm really thought JP II had bought an aircraft carrier. Why are they still hated? It's possible there's some logical reasons, but most really respond "hating them was good enough for vpw so it's good enough for me." 2) Women. vpw was denigrating of women long before he hijacked the hippies. By his own account, he was contemptuous of women and applauded Stiles for being rude to his own wife. (Was he really? According to vpw, he was, but that may have been another lie. We know vpw WANTED Stiles to be rude to his wife, which is the detail here.) Yet, he practically worshipped R1nker. What happened? Why the sharp disconnect? As I see it, there was a contempt and a hatred that suddenly turned to respect and SHAME (according to his own descriptions.) Hate women and suddenly respect one and feel shame? This makes sense if his hatred was masking a deep INSECURITY which he aimed at women. He insulted them because he felt THREATENED by them. Those who were worthy of deep EARNED respect made him almost submissive in response- like the chihuahua who barks nonstop then goes silent when the Rottweiler passes by. All other women were pushed down so insecure little vpw could feel "taller" by comparison. What makes it worse is that-until he turned part of twi into a stable of potential sex crime victims for himself and got twi'ers to worship him- he wasn't really as successful with women as he felt he DESERVED. He wanted lots of women to kiss his posterior, and they saw more of what he really was rather than how he saw himself. When he wanted to fool women, we know he succeeded decades later with some women much younger than himself. With the young and naive, he had his targets. As for those who still do, I think this is as much about their OWN insecurities as anything else. They find so little to laud of themselves that they feel tall only when someone else is pushed down. 3) Jews. A) Another instance of his "I'm siding with my fellow Germans, so..." B) Another instance of his "the people with the tinfoil hats say..." C) Another instance of "I'm insecure so I will target someone else and blame them for all the ills of society." If he was operating now, he'd be targeting Muslims and more current whipping boys. Those who still do it, do it out of ignorance, and to have a target. 4) "The establishment." vpw tried to make himself the ONLY information source for our lives, and any "establishment" people were direct threats to that. They could show him up as an amateur in many things and less than average while he's claiming to be an authority. It undermines his throne, and makes him feel insecure. Feeding vpw's ego was a big part of twi, whether it was with pliant women, cash, luxuries, or adoration.

I think it was the TV show thread, where it happened. There was someone who kept posting with the correct answers, and kept refusing to take a turn at posting something for someone else to guess. It didn't seem fair, then. I mean, it took time to try to find a good candidate for a round (TV show), then find good quotes that were possible to guess from. On the other side, it was fun to try to guess. So it was like someone was refusing to do the work of the thread, but insisted on posting the answers several times, which meant the others couldn't fairly "win" a round by guessing correctly. I mean, anybody can be busy once or possibly twice, but in that case it seemed like they were doing it on purpose. This was obviously not the same thing- you play nice with the rest of us all the time. However, it was starting to feel the same, especially since you posted FAST with an answer and immediately replied "Ok, someone else take my turn." I felt the need to bring it up. I think I know you better than that, and it might even have appeared one way to me but I was sure it was something different.

vpw made a number of changes between editions, and never indicated anything wasn't exactly the same as the previous editions.

I'm familiar with a few others by Weezer, notably "Buddy Holly". (I love the video, with Weezer playing at "Arnold's" on Happy Days.) Then there's "Keep Fishin'" with the Muppets. Waysider, you just refused to post a song twice in a row, with the second one being after you posted pretty quickly after someone posted lyrics. I would have LIKED to either try to guess YOUR song, or answer THIS one (I like "Yes" and "Yess" and "Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, Howe.") I'm confident you didn't mean it, but it's like you're TRYING to stop me from enjoying the thread by playing by the rules. If you were going to refuse to go, couldn't you just announce the answer out loud, not post, and let me or someone else fairly answer it?

Go ahead and answer it if you know it, dude!

Before the Enterprise could complete repairs, one scientist was injured and wandered off, and a local saw the inside a moment then took a serious injury. His life was saved on the Enterprise, and the attempt to erase his memories failed. He came back, raving about a god called "the Picard" and said he was The Overseer they used to believe in long ago (a belief in a god.) "Who Watches the Watchers". I find the episode fascinating for all its message. We have a society that EXPERTS say is VERY rational and practical. A member sees something he doesn't understand and IMMEDIATELY decides it is a specific incident reviving belief in an Almighty. He also leaps from "I have seen 'the Picard'" to "'The Picard' is The Overseer' " and NOBODY calls him on it. In a matter of HOURS, people are ascribing SUPERNATURAL significance to a mundane storm. and advocating hurting or killing people in case it MIGHT please 'the Picard.' We also have Picard himself saying ANY belief in ANY god will result in religious wars and "DARK AGES." Finally, Picard all but said outright that it was better to just let a local die from injuries accidentally caused by the Federation rather than violate the Prime Directive. There's quite a message in this episode. Anyway, you go. That was at least the same episode I posted.

BTW, for a quick sample of the kind of things lcm spewed, there's how he dealt with the Way Corps full-time fiasco. lcm had made a replacement for the pfal class. It was awful and grossly inferior to the pfal class. NOBODY wanted to take it. (Few people can be convinced to buy a bad product.) So, lcm decided to increase enrollment for pfal by making all the Way Corps FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES for twi. Now, rather than being sources of income for twi (full-time workers sending in 10% of their income to twi), they became financial LIABILITIES (twi had to send THEM money to live on) in the hopes they'd make the money back in enrollments. This failed miserably because nobody wanted to buy a defective product. The real kicker was the 2 weeks of required appearances at twi. See, twi had the Rock of Ages event every Summer, and Corps Week before that where the Corps arrived, spent time together, and set up the ROA. They did this at their own expense each year. But this year, now twi had to pay for ALL of them to arrive, and pay them for both weeks when they had gotten them to work for FREE BOTH WEEKS before. (vpw had complained that the people who came to hq on their own money and spent what might have been their only vacation time doing manual labor for twi for free- but didn't stay ANOTHER week to do it. He wanted MORE free labor from them and complained some had to return to work.) Shortly thereafter, the ROA was cancelled as an event, which cancels Corps Week as a result. So, this was all because lcm said God said the Corps was supposed to go full-time, which was a disaster for twi in many ways, and also led to more people quitting twi. (All those Corps with no jobs and lots of time were told to meddle in the private lives and homes of all the innies, and some innies finally got sick and tired of being sick and tired, and left.) Naturally, some people discussed what a disaster the full-time thing was. lcm responded. "How many hours have you wasted debating whether Rev. Martindale is right or wrong in sending the Way Corps full time? What a waste of time. You have no right to discuss whether I'm right or wrong. It's not your responsibility. You make up your mind either to back us up or support us or you're wrong. Period. Wrong." He called that tape ""The Key to Success is to Obey." A few people still claim that lcm wasn't telling people to BLINDLY FOLLOW him.